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Some mines and bunkers will hold the 2 base allin. If you are being contained get a drop or 2 in to deal some damage and confirm if he is going for a 3rd base. Holding on 3 bases is map dependant and more risk involved, alterzim would be good for 3 base holds since there is only one entry point for him to fight you. Heavy rain would be awful since he can attack from 3 paths and just ignore the 3rd's defence and go for the natural.
Late game marines are obsolete but you replace them with maruaders and ghosts. Some players just go pure ghost viking and it can work but its hard to engage into cannon'ed positions. Mines are good vs templar based opening and low colossus counts because the colossus will be able to pick them off easily in the later stages. If you watch Maru in the Ro16 GSL he cuts mines when he see colossus and doesnt commit to them until he knows its templar first.
Marine dps is great but in the late game they die so fast they dont really do much for you. Which is why maruaders and kiting are the unit of choice. Ghost dps vs zealots is also ok but blanket emp and HT sniping is their main role. Also keep in mind a healthy viking count for his observers and colossus.
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What is the best way to punish a 1 Base Mothership Core-Blink Stalkers all in?. Usually, I scout this BO, then I proceed to sucessfully defend with tanks and turrets, but I just don't get how to really punish this gameplay afterwards. Should I instantly counter-attack with my units?
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I would advise going 3 rax opening and defending and pushing with 5 rax bio into a 3rd CC. This way you can still defend blink allim with bunkers and have the potential to hit a stim/CS and +1 weapons timing. Tanks justnt good vs protoss, only if you have a high tank count and even that has huge weaknesses.
If you did open tanks then you can contain him to 2 base with tanks and marines in bunkers and keep poking forward and picking off what you can. Stop tanks at three and get marauders instead.
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I find that verse 1 base blink you need to go one base yourself. Hold out with 3 rax production and get medivacs ASAP. Once you've got medivacs out, the strenght of his all in decreases considerably!
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How to respond to blind 10 gate?
I scout with SCV after barracks and open reaper - reactor - cc - double marines - 2 rax before going back to gas.
I feel like it is a blindcounter, it ALWAYS comes out ahead verse me.
It comes in multiple variations as well; superfast MSC which rapes you because you'll have only 0-2 marines on most maps, or the zealot stalker variation which picks off the depots at the wall for free and requires a bunker at the front to be dealt with.
So - how do you respond if your scv scout sees 10 gate? Should I scout earlier and skip cc/reactor? bunker at front AND mineral line?
Writing this because I just got frustrated at the so maniest blind cheese into cheese into all in of Protoss xD I want to learn how to deal with all those different bullshit builds and laugh at the protosses who do them and start bm'ing them instead of them bm'ing me because they hid a building and got a freewin :-)
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On April 01 2014 08:37 SC2Toastie wrote:
How to respond to blind 10 gate?
I scout with SCV after barracks and open reaper - reactor - cc - double marines - 2 rax before going back to gas.
I feel like it is a blindcounter, it ALWAYS comes out ahead verse me.
It comes in multiple variations as well; superfast MSC which rapes you because you'll have only 0-2 marines on most maps, or the zealot stalker variation which picks off the depots at the wall for free and requires a bunker at the front to be dealt with.
So - how do you respond if your scv scout sees 10 gate? Should I scout earlier and skip cc/reactor? bunker at front AND mineral line?
Writing this because I just got frustrated at the so maniest blind cheese into cheese into all in of Protoss xD I want to learn how to deal with all those different bullshit builds and laugh at the protosses who do them and start bm'ing them instead of them bm'ing me because they hid a building and got a freewin :-)
Gate 10 is always "blind," Protoss cannot do this build reactively anyway. If you send your SCV scout only after the rax is done, it will arrive too late. It's safer to scout at 14 and expand after a second Depot + Bunker (at the ramp).
Illustration of the defence here.
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On April 01 2014 09:01 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2014 08:37 SC2Toastie wrote:
How to respond to blind 10 gate?
I scout with SCV after barracks and open reaper - reactor - cc - double marines - 2 rax before going back to gas.
I feel like it is a blindcounter, it ALWAYS comes out ahead verse me.
It comes in multiple variations as well; superfast MSC which rapes you because you'll have only 0-2 marines on most maps, or the zealot stalker variation which picks off the depots at the wall for free and requires a bunker at the front to be dealt with.
So - how do you respond if your scv scout sees 10 gate? Should I scout earlier and skip cc/reactor? bunker at front AND mineral line?
Writing this because I just got frustrated at the so maniest blind cheese into cheese into all in of Protoss xD I want to learn how to deal with all those different bullshit builds and laugh at the protosses who do them and start bm'ing them instead of them bm'ing me because they hid a building and got a freewin :-) Gate 10 is always "blind," Protoss cannot do this build reactively anyway. If you send your SCV scout only after the rax is done, it will arrive too late. It's safer to scout at 14 and expand after a second Depot + Bunker (at the ramp). Illustration of the defence here.
14 scout, so, I send the 9th scv to make a depot at the ramp, this scv also makes a rax, 12th scv makes the refinery, and the 13th goes for the scout?
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On April 01 2014 19:02 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2014 09:01 TheDwf wrote:On April 01 2014 08:37 SC2Toastie wrote:
How to respond to blind 10 gate?
I scout with SCV after barracks and open reaper - reactor - cc - double marines - 2 rax before going back to gas.
I feel like it is a blindcounter, it ALWAYS comes out ahead verse me.
It comes in multiple variations as well; superfast MSC which rapes you because you'll have only 0-2 marines on most maps, or the zealot stalker variation which picks off the depots at the wall for free and requires a bunker at the front to be dealt with.
So - how do you respond if your scv scout sees 10 gate? Should I scout earlier and skip cc/reactor? bunker at front AND mineral line?
Writing this because I just got frustrated at the so maniest blind cheese into cheese into all in of Protoss xD I want to learn how to deal with all those different bullshit builds and laugh at the protosses who do them and start bm'ing them instead of them bm'ing me because they hid a building and got a freewin :-) Gate 10 is always "blind," Protoss cannot do this build reactively anyway. If you send your SCV scout only after the rax is done, it will arrive too late. It's safer to scout at 14 and expand after a second Depot + Bunker (at the ramp). Illustration of the defence here. 14 scout, so, I send the 9th scv to make a depot at the ramp, this scv also makes a rax, 12th scv makes the refinery, and the 13th goes for the scout?
It's more common to see 9th SCV builds Depot -> Rax, 12th SCV builds the Refinery, rally SCV 14 to enemy base. However, either variation gets you out enough ahead of time to construct a defense.
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On March 30 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:
I find that verse 1 base blink you need to go one base yourself. Hold out with 3 rax production and get medivacs ASAP. Once you've got medivacs out, protoss loses
Fixed + QFT
Still, though. I hate blink! T__T.
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On March 30 2014 07:16 SC2Toastie wrote:
I find that verse 1 base blink you need to go one base yourself. Hold out with 3 rax production and get medivacs ASAP. Once you've got medivacs out, the strenght of his all in decreases considerably!
Right, 1 base blink would lose to something like this.
Here is a better alternative.
Scout with a scv to check if he skipped zealot, if he did, start a techlab on the barracks first.
Edit -> Against proxy gateway, keep reaper at home, start mara / conc shell .. oh snap.. thats right.. free units all day till stalkers.
Edit -> against gatway in base, lift rax, start reactor, its not rocket science.. its not the best.. but its being prepared for anything, with the least amount of commitment.
Next, @ 75 gas pull off of gas, and expand. ( or get 100 instead of 50 early on )
You are delaying your next 2 marines, and using your reaper to scout the map, so you CAN afford to expand before the depot.
This is not some gimmick, or cheese, this comes down to scouting, if it is 1 base play, you will have access to the following
Quick maraurder (put guys back on gas after first one)
Extra money for ( ebay / bunker(s) ) If they stay on 1 base, take 1 barracks and determine if you need the ebay, or another barracks, take the third barracks AFTER the bunker, your 2nd barracks should finish on the reactor before your 2nd mara pops out with almost 100 gas to spare. Start stim / conc shell / combat shield.. what ever you want, from here you can play completely standard, secure an expo and defend against blink easily with an early mara count, the marines are needed against a mothership core, and I understand that, again your reaper should give you the information you need on as to how quickly to lift your reactor rax up and start mara production, when I scout a early nexus I just build my 2nd rax on the techlab.
This will mess with early probe scouts if they see the techlab go down, it only delays your marine slightly, and against the fastest orcale possible you needed the ebay anyways, against a msc you will always have 4 out before it can make it across the map, repair with scvs if need be while u wait for 2 more marines / mara
This was my go to build vs protoss, no its not as corner cutting as not getting the techlab , and lets be honest, you might could do more damage with widowmines, or defend against more all ins, or have better macro taking off gas sooner.
The goal is to get macro, and get a stim bio ball timing that hit as close to 8 mins as possible while not dying, the goal was not to make up some "better than the rest" build order.. and someone may correct the way I do things with an even better method.. I read this thread many times.. and have not seen one.
Nonetheless this is what I do, I play against diamond protoss, I am only plat, but been diamond MMR since Gold, and up 20 games atm, yes protoss is my worst match up, but this build has given me the most succeess.. besides 4 player maps, where I opt for a CC first, or a 1 rax fe 1 depot, ebay. ( because of the meta game.. the odds of facing blink on 4 player maps.. eh its up there.. but i face DT/oracles more.. so thats my 4P map build.. I dont reccomend it at all, it is what I do because I am to bad to feel confident with out it, it pays off if they do cheese, it leaves me high and dry against super macro.
Last edit... I personally have switched to gas first maruader mine.. thanks to -Hammer- ... but, even now if I had to play someone with money on the line.. not that I ever would.. I would either do this build.. or cheese, depending on my odds lol.
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Hey guys, do you think BC are better than raven in TvZ while playing mech ? I start thinking so. When I play against SH mutas, once the zerg reachs like 45 mutas, raven are shit I think. He pre-split them and then attack at the same time his locust come, so PDD die way too fast, HSMs do nothing, worse they damage my army. I think having max 5 raven is enough now, and transi straight to BC. They are much more tanky against mutas.
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On April 02 2014 15:56 Faust852 wrote:
Hey guys, do you think BC are better than raven in TvZ while playing mech ? I start thinking so. When I play against SH mutas, once the zerg reachs like 45 mutas, raven are shit I think. He pre-split them and then attack at the same time his locust come, so PDD die way too fast, HSMs do nothing, worse they damage my army. I think having max 5 raven is enough now, and transi straight to BC. They are much more tanky against mutas.
I think that ravens are way better, take a look at avilo's stream he fights muta swarmhost quite often and he tells you not to build battle cruisers unless you want to lose. Just build lots of turrets since it's a good building.
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On April 02 2014 18:15 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2014 15:56 Faust852 wrote:
Hey guys, do you think BC are better than raven in TvZ while playing mech ? I start thinking so. When I play against SH mutas, once the zerg reachs like 45 mutas, raven are shit I think. He pre-split them and then attack at the same time his locust come, so PDD die way too fast, HSMs do nothing, worse they damage my army. I think having max 5 raven is enough now, and transi straight to BC. They are much more tanky against mutas. I think that ravens are way better, take a look at avilo's stream he fights muta swarmhost quite often and he tells you not to build battle cruisers unless you want to lose. Just build lots of turrets since it's a good building.
Yes, Go Avilo! He certainly has a deep understanding of the game! /sarcasmoff
Ravens are crucial verse Zerg, mass PDD/turret/randomAA deals with mutalisk easily. Just don't get yourself caught in a position where you take a fight when there's locust. Always be right above your tanks, so the locust wont empty your PDDs.
BC's are only really useful if the Zerg is dead and just turtling on no funds, they can finish him of. NP/Abduct/Corruptor are all kinda good against BC.
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On April 02 2014 20:32 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2014 18:15 PanzerElite wrote:On April 02 2014 15:56 Faust852 wrote:
Hey guys, do you think BC are better than raven in TvZ while playing mech ? I start thinking so. When I play against SH mutas, once the zerg reachs like 45 mutas, raven are shit I think. He pre-split them and then attack at the same time his locust come, so PDD die way too fast, HSMs do nothing, worse they damage my army. I think having max 5 raven is enough now, and transi straight to BC. They are much more tanky against mutas. I think that ravens are way better, take a look at avilo's stream he fights muta swarmhost quite often and he tells you not to build battle cruisers unless you want to lose. Just build lots of turrets since it's a good building. Yes, Go Avilo! He certainly has a deep understanding of the game! /sarcasmoff Ravens are crucial verse Zerg, mass PDD/turret/randomAA deals with mutalisk easily. Just don't get yourself caught in a position where you take a fight when there's locust. Always be right above your tanks, so the locust wont empty your PDDs. BC's are only really useful if the Zerg is dead and just turtling on no funds, they can finish him of. NP/Abduct/Corruptor are all kinda good against BC.
Mhhh I don't know, sometimes you can't just attack if you don't engage the locusts. Mvp did BC on 4 bases against Firecake instead of Ravens and it works quite well. I don't get the hate against BCs in TvZ. Ok, in TvT it is shit but in TvZ it seems really strong.
I think 3/3 mutas are better against mass raven than mass BCs.
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On April 02 2014 21:17 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 00:00 never_Nal wrote:
How do I deal with 2-2 Chargelot Archon timing? (7 gates on 2 bases) The thing that I worry about the most when I use Chargelot/Archon timing-attacks is a full wall-off that has additional Bunkers placed behind the wall. Basically, if the Chargelot/Archon ball gets on top of your Bio at that stage of the game then it's pretty much over because you probably won't have enough units; having a wall to stop the Protoss units getting right on top of your units (and having a good timing on the SCV pull required to repair that wall) are the most important things to do if you want to survive a Chargelot/Archon timing-attack. The new Widow Mine can also help a lot, but having that wall-off is the most important thing by far. The only problem with this is that, since I don't play Terran, I don't know if there's a reason you'd choose not to wall-off your natural expansion. Some players do it every game, but some players never put Supply Depots at the front of their natural. I'm happy for Terrans to do the latter since it helps me, but I don't understand why they don't try to get a wall-off going. I'm also not entirely sure how easy it is to scout that the Protoss is all-inning without seeing the Gateway count; I will either go up to 6 Gateways if I want to take a third or 8 Gateways if I want to do the timing-attack, but those additional Gateways go down at the exact same timing with the build that I use so I imagine there's very little information Terran can glean without somehow hitting a miracle Scan on all of the Gateways..?
Some Terrans don't wall off their natural, either because they don't have the habit or because they didn't scout the Colossus or Templar route quickly enough (you don't want walls against Colossi timings).
2-bases Protoss timings are typically scouted when Protoss walks across the map with his army.
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On April 02 2014 21:52 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2014 20:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 02 2014 18:15 PanzerElite wrote:On April 02 2014 15:56 Faust852 wrote:
Hey guys, do you think BC are better than raven in TvZ while playing mech ? I start thinking so. When I play against SH mutas, once the zerg reachs like 45 mutas, raven are shit I think. He pre-split them and then attack at the same time his locust come, so PDD die way too fast, HSMs do nothing, worse they damage my army. I think having max 5 raven is enough now, and transi straight to BC. They are much more tanky against mutas. I think that ravens are way better, take a look at avilo's stream he fights muta swarmhost quite often and he tells you not to build battle cruisers unless you want to lose. Just build lots of turrets since it's a good building. Yes, Go Avilo! He certainly has a deep understanding of the game! /sarcasmoff Ravens are crucial verse Zerg, mass PDD/turret/randomAA deals with mutalisk easily. Just don't get yourself caught in a position where you take a fight when there's locust. Always be right above your tanks, so the locust wont empty your PDDs. BC's are only really useful if the Zerg is dead and just turtling on no funds, they can finish him of. NP/Abduct/Corruptor are all kinda good against BC. Mhhh I don't know, sometimes you can't just attack if you don't engage the locusts. Mvp did BC on 4 bases against Firecake instead of Ravens and it works quite well. I don't get the hate against BCs in TvZ. Ok, in TvT it is shit but in TvZ it seems really strong. I think 3/3 mutas are better against mass raven than mass BCs.
You're turtling with mech and accumulation a raven cloud - why would you attack?
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On April 03 2014 00:41 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2014 22:10 TheDwf wrote:On April 02 2014 21:17 SatedSC2 wrote:On March 29 2014 00:00 never_Nal wrote:
How do I deal with 2-2 Chargelot Archon timing? (7 gates on 2 bases) The thing that I worry about the most when I use Chargelot/Archon timing-attacks is a full wall-off that has additional Bunkers placed behind the wall. Basically, if the Chargelot/Archon ball gets on top of your Bio at that stage of the game then it's pretty much over because you probably won't have enough units; having a wall to stop the Protoss units getting right on top of your units (and having a good timing on the SCV pull required to repair that wall) are the most important things to do if you want to survive a Chargelot/Archon timing-attack. The new Widow Mine can also help a lot, but having that wall-off is the most important thing by far. The only problem with this is that, since I don't play Terran, I don't know if there's a reason you'd choose not to wall-off your natural expansion. Some players do it every game, but some players never put Supply Depots at the front of their natural. I'm happy for Terrans to do the latter since it helps me, but I don't understand why they don't try to get a wall-off going. I'm also not entirely sure how easy it is to scout that the Protoss is all-inning without seeing the Gateway count; I will either go up to 6 Gateways if I want to take a third or 8 Gateways if I want to do the timing-attack, but those additional Gateways go down at the exact same timing with the build that I use so I imagine there's very little information Terran can glean without somehow hitting a miracle Scan on all of the Gateways..? Some Terrans don't wall off their natural, either because they don't have the habit or because they didn't scout the Colossus or Templar route quickly enough (you don't want walls against Colossi timings). 2-bases Protoss timings are typically scouted when Protoss walks across the map with his army. I think that you should be able to scout whether they're going for Colossi or Templar early enough to start a wall-off that will be ready in time for a Chargelot/Archon timing-attack..?
Depends. Some blink/colos builds get a 7'30 Council just like a regular Templar opening, so if you scout the Council alone but miss the robobay (because it's built on the natural or outside the scan radius) you can ignore he's going Colossi until your Medivac push sees it. It happened to me in my last game vs ToD, I scouted his first Colossus by 11' or something like that. I had already started my wall because I thought he was going Templars.
That being said, in the other way around Terran should be able to wall off in time even if he starts the wall a bit late.
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How do you guys respond to quick speed after a fast pool? Zergs seem to be going pool first a lot these days to clear your natural. Any tips to make sure you don't end up behind?
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EPT
