EPTGiven the current meta, what's the most effective 1 base all-in vs Zerg?
vs Protoss?
For TvZ I've heard 11/11 rax, or 3 starport banshee (haven't seen this build).. any other ideas vs Z or P? Thanks in advance.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 264
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Infinite976
United States92 Posts
Given the current meta, what's the most effective 1 base all-in vs Zerg? vs Protoss? For TvZ I've heard 11/11 rax, or 3 starport banshee (haven't seen this build).. any other ideas vs Z or P? Thanks in advance. | ||
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never_Nal
Costa Rica676 Posts
On March 22 2014 02:37 Infinite976 wrote: Two questions: Given the current meta, what's the most effective 1 base all-in vs Zerg? vs Protoss? For TvZ I've heard 11/11 rax, or 3 starport banshee (haven't seen this build).. any other ideas vs Z or P? Thanks in advance. Play Macro games, I haven't seen any pro players do allins recently  | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On March 21 2014 21:20 shivver wrote: quick question I used to open 1 rax expand into double gas into mech in wings of liberty in TvT. This build was pretty much the end all be all as you could hold what I believe was every single possible all in with it. Is this still viable or is things like double reaper too strong for this now? Worst opening ever in TvT now. Just gaz first or gaz 15. Or reaper expand. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On March 22 2014 02:37 Infinite976 wrote: Two questions: Given the current meta, what's the most effective 1 base all-in vs Zerg? vs Protoss? For TvZ I've heard 11/11 rax, or 3 starport banshee (haven't seen this build).. any other ideas vs Z or P? Thanks in advance. vs Z, I'd say 8889, I have arround 90% wr with it in high master. 11/11 is harder to pull off I think. vs P I use some kind of proxy raxs. rax 12 in main, then rax 14/17/17 proxied, and I push at 25 supply with scv. Works quite well. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On March 22 2014 02:37 Infinite976 wrote: Two questions: Given the current meta, what's the most effective 1 base all-in vs Zerg? vs Protoss? For TvZ I've heard 11/11 rax, or 3 starport banshee (haven't seen this build).. any other ideas vs Z or P? Thanks in advance. TvP + Show Spoiler + Game 1, basically the equivalent of a Terran cannon rush. + Show Spoiler + Build requires lots of micro + good decision making and a little luck, but can be really strong. + Show Spoiler + Not really an all-in but it either gets you a huge advantage or falls flat, game starts at 8:00 edit: spoilered videos | ||
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Infinite976
United States92 Posts
Faust852 - I haven't done too much reaper in TvZ, what do you prioritize? Do you try to focus spines down or avoid them if you can? What's the latest point you can usually win with pure reaper? Thanks again guys | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5459 Posts
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TheBaLinOne
Germany16 Posts
http://drop.sc/377254 Thx! | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
It worked pretty well for me in the few games in which I used this style, I go for his 3rd once he lands it, with a good arc and letting unsieged tanks take the first tank hits before running in with the bio. The tanks really add good damage and a bit of tanking, I find the gas better spent on them than on medivacs that will get killed by vikings during engagements, and will be pretty useless if you don't successfully drop. You can then transition to air if you reduced his army size and force him to produce tanks. I'd like to have better players' opinion on this style of play, compared to going directly into air as ForGG has been doing on this stream lately (gas spent on vikings/banshee/raven instead of tanks). I didn't pay very close attention but he has sick attack timings. I believe he used it in one of his games against Kas yesterday in the Gfinity tourney, if you want to check it out in details. | ||
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herMan
Japan2056 Posts
There's been a tvz craze for a while which is to open three reapers into hellion and cloak banshee into mech. Dream opened up this way but went bio. The thing I'm wondering here is why Dream didn't get a fast third? Was his execution just horribly sloppy? Why don't we see more of this kind of play in televised competitive play (3reaper+hellion+cloakbanshee harass into bio) or is it happening under my nose? | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On March 23 2014 00:16 herMan wrote: I saw this game and it got my attention: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huR9Wp1TlLU There's been a tvz craze for a while which is to open three reapers into hellion and cloak banshee into mech. Dream opened up this way but went bio. The thing I'm wondering here is why Dream didn't get a fast third? Was his execution just horribly sloppy? Why don't we see more of this kind of play in televised competitive play (3reaper+hellion+cloakbanshee harass into bio) or is it happening under my nose? Opening three reapers instead of two delays hellion production by ~45 seconds, and reactor hellion production is extremely expensive (400 minerals/minute). Most players use that surplus ~300 minerals to get an earlier 3rd CC, Dream chose to get an extremely early second gas instead and switch into hellion / banshee production asap. There's a point where it looks like Dream could afford to throw down a 3rd CC, but you can tell it would have delayed his banshee / hellion production (especially account for the extra 150m for an orbital too). | ||
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herMan
Japan2056 Posts
On March 23 2014 01:06 Pursuit_ wrote: Opening three reapers instead of two delays hellion production by ~45 seconds, and reactor hellion production is extremely expensive (400 minerals/minute). Most players use that surplus ~300 minerals to get an earlier 3rd CC, Dream chose to get an extremely early second gas instead and switch into hellion / banshee production asap. There's a point where it looks like Dream could afford to throw down a 3rd CC, but you can tell it would have delayed his banshee / hellion production (especially account for the extra 150m for an orbital too). I'm leaning more and more on the explanation that he was just sloppy. I actually played a few games against the AI and I added my third CC at 4.55 and took a gas at 5.10. My banshee popped out 15 seconds later than Dream's but I had a vastly superior economy so I believe delaying the banshee a bit is totally worth it. Thoughts? | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On March 23 2014 01:44 herMan wrote: I'm leaning more and more on the explanation that he was just sloppy. I actually played a few games against the AI and I added my third CC at 4.55 and took a gas at 5.10. My banshee popped out 15 seconds later than Dream's but I had a vastly superior economy so I believe delaying the banshee a bit is totally worth it. Thoughts? How are you on Production / Stim / Eng Bays ect? Just from my experience I don't think you can have the minerals to afford that early of a 3rd cc/orbital + constant hellion production + cloak banshee + stim + constant scv production + not getting supply blocked, or if you can it's really really tight. But yeah, his build definitely isn't 100% optimal. He's definitely floating a lot of resources at points and his production is pretty delayed too (you can see his hellion production starts pretty late for example). It's really common to have suboptimal execution of builds when you're playing aggressively with reaper -> hellion banshee in an actual game though because you have to be constantly controlling your units. edit: I feel like if his excecution is optimal he's going to be getting hellions / banshees earlier and more constantly with the delayed third CC. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On March 23 2014 02:25 Pursuit_ wrote: How are you on Production / Stim / Eng Bays ect? Just from my experience I don't think you can have the minerals to afford that early of a 3rd cc/orbital + constant hellion production + cloak banshee + stim + constant scv production + not getting supply blocked, or if you can it's really really tight. But yeah, his build definitely isn't 100% optimal. He's definitely floating a lot of resources at points and his production is pretty delayed too (you can see his hellion production starts pretty late for example). It's really common to have suboptimal execution of builds when you're playing aggressively with reaper -> hellion banshee in an actual game though because you have to be constantly controlling your units. edit: I feel like if his excecution is optimal he's going to be getting hellions / banshees earlier and more constantly with the delayed third CC. If you go 11/11 reaper and build 3 reapers, your barracks is tied up for so long with only a 50 mineral unit you can afford to build a 3rd CC and still go seamlessly into banshee without delay, but your extra barracks and upgrades come at around 8:15 instead of 7:30 like they would otherwise, with, say, a single uncloacked banshee build. But the build still is very tight if you want to have any units at all by 11 minutes, but any well executed build should be tight, shouldn't it? | ||
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herMan
Japan2056 Posts
On March 23 2014 06:34 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: If you go 11/11 reaper and build 3 reapers, your barracks is tied up for so long with only a 50 mineral unit you can afford to build a 3rd CC and still go seamlessly into banshee without delay, but your extra barracks and upgrades come at around 8:15 instead of 7:30 like they would otherwise, with, say, a single uncloacked banshee build. But the build still is very tight if you want to have any units at all by 11 minutes, but any well executed build should be tight, shouldn't it? I actually didn't realize Dream went 11/11 reaper in that game. I did the standard 12/12 and everything lined up nicely but with 11/11 it doesn't work. So you have to open more economical to make it work. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 22 2014 02:37 Infinite976 wrote: Two questions: Given the current meta, what's the most effective 1 base all-in vs Zerg? vs Protoss? For TvZ I've heard 11/11 rax, or 3 starport banshee (haven't seen this build).. any other ideas vs Z or P? Thanks in advance. I find timings work better than cheese against zerg. Cheese can be scouted and defended, but timings if done right can deny scouting and hit an unexpected opponent. Lately, I've been copying/tweaking to my liking an illusion build I see him use. 11 rax 11 gas 2 reaper (I get 3 if they go gasless) CC fac reactor and then instead of 3rd cc double rax, first rax lifts and lands with tech lab, make marines out of it and put at the incoming OL scout spots. Come back with reapers around ~6 min based on their speed timing, if not be an asshole and don't lose them and rally hellions out. It looks like a normal reaper/hellion opening, if you show more hellions they can (pending their reading) see a mech build. But I deny creep, and delay the third as long as possible. Double reactor both the next two raxes, and stay on top of depots. You are making 2 hellions, and 5 marines, and 2 scvs per cycle, so stay on top of depots or you will get supply blocked hard. A few seconds before stim, again based off map size, move out with marines and more hellions if you don't rally them, and go piss on the zergs face. If you denied some creep, and cleared towers, he has VERY little notice of this attack. It hits hard. Illusion gets CS as it hits much earlier, and isn't nearly as all in IMO beacuse you transition out of it earlier. Stim takes 60 seconds more, and thats 10+ more marines and 2-4 more hellions in your army -- a much larger invesetment. I drop 3rd gas, startport, double ebay, and then 3rd cc, then rax 4 and 5 after the timing if it does damage (usually always forces a TON of units, so their muta timing is fucked and way late. Besides, you'll have stim and CS and medics by the time mutas are out, right ;D ) He did it against henryZ (hendralisk) in a qualifer a while ago, maybe a month or two. I can give you my shitty examples of it if you want. | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
I would still suggest medivacs instead of continued hellion production. I have the factory make two reactors instead of continued hellions and have more marines faster instead of additional hellions. Just my preference. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On March 22 2014 08:42 Infinite976 wrote: Pursuit_ & Faust852 thx for the builds, those TvP games were impressive. Faust852 - I haven't done too much reaper in TvZ, what do you prioritize? Do you try to focus spines down or avoid them if you can? What's the latest point you can usually win with pure reaper? Thanks again guys I'd say the main goal is to kill queens, once they are dead it's pretty much win. You need 2 reapers to damage it and 3 to kill it. You should try to kill some workers but if you can't get close without losing reapers, don't. Just force mass zerglings and if he goes fast speed, kill them ASAP while trying to kill still some workers. But your main goal is to overwhelm the Z with a shit ton of reapers so you have to kill his units. If he cancel his expansion, and manage to get speed with enough to repel you, you back with your rax and reaper, put down a factory and a CC. try to hold his baneburst with a strong wall and marauders if he goes roachs. If he manages to safe is natural and repel you while not doing enough damages on his side, it's pretty much lose for you. I'd gladly give you some replays but unfortunaly I cleaned my HD so the only replay I have is against hatch first into gaz 17 into pool 16, better say it's not interesting because his opening was autolose. | ||
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Ogww
Finland224 Posts
On March 22 2014 02:37 Infinite976 wrote: Two questions: Given the current meta, what's the most effective 1 base all-in vs Zerg? vs Protoss? For TvZ I've heard 11/11 rax, or 3 starport banshee (haven't seen this build).. any other ideas vs Z or P? Thanks in advance. I'm currently trying to go to masters with only 2rax(no gases, only marines) after a long break from SC2. New account in NA server, currently 95-50. Too much Protoss, Terran and early scouts :< 11/11 in TvZ is pretty solid once you learn how to react and follow-up. Proxy both raxes, pull 3rd scv as first rax is about to finish. Go in with your first marine and 3 scv's. Make sure it's hatch first and start your first bunker in a place you can use to hide one marine in a choke behind a scv or two on hold position and autorepair. Zerg has to manually target the scv with drones and by the time he gets through(if it's only single scv with no repair) he already lost like 5 drones to a single marine and next 2 marines are there to make his life even worse. Against pool first I'm not exactly sure yet how to play. Usually I just make massive bunker contain, spreading 5+ bunkers far enough not to be in baneling explosion range but still trying to reduce surface area as much as I can while transitioning into either banshees(roaches) or reactor hellion(speedling/baneling). 2rax Fuzer replaypack | ||
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terranimbastimamove
United States81 Posts
I think the reason my best Match up is TvZ is because my play style is hyper-aggressive and there is literally ALWAYS something going on in each game. The things I have problems with in TvT cloak banshee in short. I have always hated cloak banshees since WoL and I still to this day cannot stand playing with them, or against them. I copied a build from Jjakji and have been going cloak banshee every TvT and no matter how perfectly I excute the opener I either get ran over because my stim is late or I have hardly any marines. The build is a hard counter against 1-1-1s and any early cloak banshee build while starting a banshee with cloak around 5:20-30 mark. My play style has never fit with banshees because I really do not like to have my attention on a single glass unit and am very heavy into playing with disposable marines with lots of micro. I only make 1 cloak banshee, and I usually don't harass a whole lot with it after I see a raven because I don't want to lose it. The only builds that I have found consistent success with are proxy 11-11-11 reapers and 11-11 proxy marauder into cloak banshee. Every other opener that I have played not only do I not enjoy playing but I usually get rolled come mid-game because of lack of mobile units. Especially when getting contained in TvT it's almost like automatically GG if you don't have medivacs to drop. PLEASE HELP ME BE CONSISTENT IN TvT AND NOT HAVE TO GAMBLE WITH STUPID PROXY BUILDS THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!!!! | ||
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