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On March 19 2014 13:10 DinoMight wrote: Hey guys, a little help pls.
My TvZ is pretty weak at the moment. I've just started playing Terran from Protoss so I don't really know builds (and in the true Protoss way, I've just kind of winged something that works).
My build is basically "fast" (used loosely here since I'm not very good) 3 CC into a million man Marine + Hellbat + Medivacs march. The Hellbats are supposed to have blue flame, I just forgot this game. I don't scout and do 2 Reaper opening... if he's greedy I can kill a few drones, if he plays safe then we're both a little behind. Use the Reapers to scout for an allin and if I don't see one coming I proceed.
Please let me know if you can think of ways to improve / tweak this build. The one thing I don't like is my upgrades are pretty late, I think I can definitely get those out faster.
Thanks!
I noticed is that your opening is overly defensive (TvZ you can go CC before second depot + CC on the low ground and be consistently safe), this probably isn't a huge deal however.
Your 2nd and 3rd barracks are really late and your gas at your natural is really late too, looks like you're getting caught up in micro? Floating ~1k minerals and you should have your 2nd and 3rd rax done and 4th and 5th started.
Your marines are coming out pretty late, you need to have a handful (~16 or so) by 11:00 minutes to deal with mutas, I wouldn't get more than 1-2 mauraders before then and even then only if you suspect a roach timing. You've also go no add-ons on your rax (due to lack of gas?), it's inefficient to use naked rax but not the end of the world.
Really bad supply blocks at 116 and 156, and you're overmaking turrets a lot, you should really only make 1-2 turrets per mineral line in the early game because it's super important to have units out in the early stages of TvZ. Make the turrets in the mineral line too so you can repair in time. You're also playing really passively, it's kind of working out this game because your opponent isn't droning very well but typically if your opponent isn't being harassed they're going to be at 80-90 drones by 12:00 and maxed out by 13-14 minutes.
If you want to play hellbat you need a third factory (with a tech lab) and you need to add in a couple thors, pure hellbat / marine will get slaughtered by high mutalisk counts.
Your upgrades are pretty late too, you'll want to start engineering bays by 8:30 or so at the latest. Mid game can be really hard if you're on 1/1 and your opponent has 2/2.
Maybe play a couple practice games and just focus on getting maxed out around 14:00, the biggest problem you have is just making your production on time and avoiding getting supply blocked.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to watch the replay. This is helpful. The timings you're indicating - are those pro timings or something that I can realistically execute at my level? I'm pretty bad still, haven't been playing Terran at this level for very long. About a week ago I used to lose to Gold players. Now I'm winning against top 10ish Diamond.
You should be able to hit them vs very easy AI after a few tries, probably not in a real game. I'm only mid masters but both I and my opponents can hit those benchmarks in game. Really just focus on getting your production up asap though, Terran production (if you get add-ons at least) takes longer than any other races to get going even if you have a pretty complicated add-on swapping setup like most pros do, while Zerg's takes the least amount of time and resources. So it's really important you minimize that window where you have very little unit production after 3CC and your opponent has 3-4 hatch worth of production (typically 8:00-10:00 or so) or you're going to start losing a lot of games to unit floods around the 8-11 minute mark even if you scout them.
Yeah I think I'm getting a little too caught up in microing my first few Reapers and Hellions and not giving macro enough attention. Will focus on getting all that stuff earlier as I'm sure it will help as I make my way up the ladder.
Thanks.
What kind of players are you playing now with terran?
Ranges from gold to top 10 Diamond. I'm still playing unranked only. My strongest/main race has been Protoss for a long time so that MMR is likely much higher (ranked). But I think I'm almost caught up on my unranked.
As far as play styles, it's mostly ling bane muta. I lost to a roach bane allin with this build but it was more my fault for not scouting it (got my reaper killed doing something silly). Protoss is all over the place. Terran seems to bee on the cheesy side.
On March 19 2014 13:10 DinoMight wrote: Hey guys, a little help pls.
My TvZ is pretty weak at the moment. I've just started playing Terran from Protoss so I don't really know builds (and in the true Protoss way, I've just kind of winged something that works).
My build is basically "fast" (used loosely here since I'm not very good) 3 CC into a million man Marine + Hellbat + Medivacs march. The Hellbats are supposed to have blue flame, I just forgot this game. I don't scout and do 2 Reaper opening... if he's greedy I can kill a few drones, if he plays safe then we're both a little behind. Use the Reapers to scout for an allin and if I don't see one coming I proceed.
Please let me know if you can think of ways to improve / tweak this build. The one thing I don't like is my upgrades are pretty late, I think I can definitely get those out faster.
Thanks!
I noticed is that your opening is overly defensive (TvZ you can go CC before second depot + CC on the low ground and be consistently safe), this probably isn't a huge deal however.
Your 2nd and 3rd barracks are really late and your gas at your natural is really late too, looks like you're getting caught up in micro? Floating ~1k minerals and you should have your 2nd and 3rd rax done and 4th and 5th started.
Your marines are coming out pretty late, you need to have a handful (~16 or so) by 11:00 minutes to deal with mutas, I wouldn't get more than 1-2 mauraders before then and even then only if you suspect a roach timing. You've also go no add-ons on your rax (due to lack of gas?), it's inefficient to use naked rax but not the end of the world.
Really bad supply blocks at 116 and 156, and you're overmaking turrets a lot, you should really only make 1-2 turrets per mineral line in the early game because it's super important to have units out in the early stages of TvZ. Make the turrets in the mineral line too so you can repair in time. You're also playing really passively, it's kind of working out this game because your opponent isn't droning very well but typically if your opponent isn't being harassed they're going to be at 80-90 drones by 12:00 and maxed out by 13-14 minutes.
If you want to play hellbat you need a third factory (with a tech lab) and you need to add in a couple thors, pure hellbat / marine will get slaughtered by high mutalisk counts.
Your upgrades are pretty late too, you'll want to start engineering bays by 8:30 or so at the latest. Mid game can be really hard if you're on 1/1 and your opponent has 2/2.
Maybe play a couple practice games and just focus on getting maxed out around 14:00, the biggest problem you have is just making your production on time and avoiding getting supply blocked.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to watch the replay. This is helpful. The timings you're indicating - are those pro timings or something that I can realistically execute at my level? I'm pretty bad still, haven't been playing Terran at this level for very long. About a week ago I used to lose to Gold players. Now I'm winning against top 10ish Diamond.
You should be able to hit them vs very easy AI after a few tries, probably not in a real game. I'm only mid masters but both I and my opponents can hit those benchmarks in game. Really just focus on getting your production up asap though, Terran production (if you get add-ons at least) takes longer than any other races to get going even if you have a pretty complicated add-on swapping setup like most pros do, while Zerg's takes the least amount of time and resources. So it's really important you minimize that window where you have very little unit production after 3CC and your opponent has 3-4 hatch worth of production (typically 8:00-10:00 or so) or you're going to start losing a lot of games to unit floods around the 8-11 minute mark even if you scout them.
Yeah I think I'm getting a little too caught up in microing my first few Reapers and Hellions and not giving macro enough attention. Will focus on getting all that stuff earlier as I'm sure it will help as I make my way up the ladder.
Thanks.
What kind of players are you playing now with terran?
Ranges from gold to top 10 Diamond. I'm still playing unranked only. My strongest/main race has been Protoss for a long time so that MMR is likely much higher (ranked). But I think I'm almost caught up on my unranked.
As far as play styles, it's mostly ling bane muta. I lost to a roach bane allin with this build but it was more my fault for not scouting it (got my reaper killed doing something silly). Protoss is all over the place. Terran seems to bee on the cheesy side.
Hmm, diamond is the highest you say. This might sound weird but I suggest not even bothering with reapers and hellions in tvz then. I haven't played much since my win rates vs toss plummeted, but when I still was in a clan I wrecked all zergs in our clan tournaments without dropping a map. They were mid-master lvl I suppose. That was pre widow mine nerf, doesn't matter just parade push with pure bio then. If you're interested I could share some replays. Since it's a BO1 on ladder you can get away with doing it every single game while having a good win ratio. And if you don't feel safe doing it you could always open with 14cc 16gas for a factory(rax tl for 2/3 tanks) before your 3rd cc.
It's a rip off from a Bomber build into the style were he does a parade push with just mmm.
On March 19 2014 13:10 DinoMight wrote: Hey guys, a little help pls.
My TvZ is pretty weak at the moment. I've just started playing Terran from Protoss so I don't really know builds (and in the true Protoss way, I've just kind of winged something that works).
My build is basically "fast" (used loosely here since I'm not very good) 3 CC into a million man Marine + Hellbat + Medivacs march. The Hellbats are supposed to have blue flame, I just forgot this game. I don't scout and do 2 Reaper opening... if he's greedy I can kill a few drones, if he plays safe then we're both a little behind. Use the Reapers to scout for an allin and if I don't see one coming I proceed.
Please let me know if you can think of ways to improve / tweak this build. The one thing I don't like is my upgrades are pretty late, I think I can definitely get those out faster.
Thanks!
I noticed is that your opening is overly defensive (TvZ you can go CC before second depot + CC on the low ground and be consistently safe), this probably isn't a huge deal however.
Your 2nd and 3rd barracks are really late and your gas at your natural is really late too, looks like you're getting caught up in micro? Floating ~1k minerals and you should have your 2nd and 3rd rax done and 4th and 5th started.
Your marines are coming out pretty late, you need to have a handful (~16 or so) by 11:00 minutes to deal with mutas, I wouldn't get more than 1-2 mauraders before then and even then only if you suspect a roach timing. You've also go no add-ons on your rax (due to lack of gas?), it's inefficient to use naked rax but not the end of the world.
Really bad supply blocks at 116 and 156, and you're overmaking turrets a lot, you should really only make 1-2 turrets per mineral line in the early game because it's super important to have units out in the early stages of TvZ. Make the turrets in the mineral line too so you can repair in time. You're also playing really passively, it's kind of working out this game because your opponent isn't droning very well but typically if your opponent isn't being harassed they're going to be at 80-90 drones by 12:00 and maxed out by 13-14 minutes.
If you want to play hellbat you need a third factory (with a tech lab) and you need to add in a couple thors, pure hellbat / marine will get slaughtered by high mutalisk counts.
Your upgrades are pretty late too, you'll want to start engineering bays by 8:30 or so at the latest. Mid game can be really hard if you're on 1/1 and your opponent has 2/2.
Maybe play a couple practice games and just focus on getting maxed out around 14:00, the biggest problem you have is just making your production on time and avoiding getting supply blocked.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to watch the replay. This is helpful. The timings you're indicating - are those pro timings or something that I can realistically execute at my level? I'm pretty bad still, haven't been playing Terran at this level for very long. About a week ago I used to lose to Gold players. Now I'm winning against top 10ish Diamond.
You should be able to hit them vs very easy AI after a few tries, probably not in a real game. I'm only mid masters but both I and my opponents can hit those benchmarks in game. Really just focus on getting your production up asap though, Terran production (if you get add-ons at least) takes longer than any other races to get going even if you have a pretty complicated add-on swapping setup like most pros do, while Zerg's takes the least amount of time and resources. So it's really important you minimize that window where you have very little unit production after 3CC and your opponent has 3-4 hatch worth of production (typically 8:00-10:00 or so) or you're going to start losing a lot of games to unit floods around the 8-11 minute mark even if you scout them.
Yeah I think I'm getting a little too caught up in microing my first few Reapers and Hellions and not giving macro enough attention. Will focus on getting all that stuff earlier as I'm sure it will help as I make my way up the ladder.
Thanks.
What kind of players are you playing now with terran?
Ranges from gold to top 10 Diamond. I'm still playing unranked only. My strongest/main race has been Protoss for a long time so that MMR is likely much higher (ranked). But I think I'm almost caught up on my unranked.
As far as play styles, it's mostly ling bane muta. I lost to a roach bane allin with this build but it was more my fault for not scouting it (got my reaper killed doing something silly). Protoss is all over the place. Terran seems to bee on the cheesy side.
Hmm, diamond is the highest you say. This might sound weird but I suggest not even bothering with reapers and hellions in tvz then. I haven't played much since my win rates vs toss plummeted, but when I still was in a clan I wrecked all zergs in our clan tournaments without dropping a map. They were mid-master lvl I suppose. That was pre widow mine nerf, doesn't matter just parade push with pure bio then. If you're interested I could share some replays. Since it's a BO1 on ladder you can get away with doing it every single game while having a good win ratio. And if you don't feel safe doing it you could always open with 14cc 16gas for a factory(rax tl for 2/3 tanks) before your 3rd cc.
It's a rip off from a Bomber build into the style were he does a parade push with just mmm.
I actually prefer to be aggressive because I feel that when I don't make the reapers / hellions (say I CC first into bio)... Zerg just gets waaaaay out of hand.
Plus I want to improve my multitasking skills. As Protoss one of my greatest strengths is harassing my opponent to death while I macro behind it.. So if I can get my Terran macro up to where my Protoss used to be (was Masters 1-2 seasons) it should pay off.
On March 19 2014 13:10 DinoMight wrote: Hey guys, a little help pls.
My TvZ is pretty weak at the moment. I've just started playing Terran from Protoss so I don't really know builds (and in the true Protoss way, I've just kind of winged something that works).
My build is basically "fast" (used loosely here since I'm not very good) 3 CC into a million man Marine + Hellbat + Medivacs march. The Hellbats are supposed to have blue flame, I just forgot this game. I don't scout and do 2 Reaper opening... if he's greedy I can kill a few drones, if he plays safe then we're both a little behind. Use the Reapers to scout for an allin and if I don't see one coming I proceed.
Please let me know if you can think of ways to improve / tweak this build. The one thing I don't like is my upgrades are pretty late, I think I can definitely get those out faster.
Thanks!
I noticed is that your opening is overly defensive (TvZ you can go CC before second depot + CC on the low ground and be consistently safe), this probably isn't a huge deal however.
Your 2nd and 3rd barracks are really late and your gas at your natural is really late too, looks like you're getting caught up in micro? Floating ~1k minerals and you should have your 2nd and 3rd rax done and 4th and 5th started.
Your marines are coming out pretty late, you need to have a handful (~16 or so) by 11:00 minutes to deal with mutas, I wouldn't get more than 1-2 mauraders before then and even then only if you suspect a roach timing. You've also go no add-ons on your rax (due to lack of gas?), it's inefficient to use naked rax but not the end of the world.
Really bad supply blocks at 116 and 156, and you're overmaking turrets a lot, you should really only make 1-2 turrets per mineral line in the early game because it's super important to have units out in the early stages of TvZ. Make the turrets in the mineral line too so you can repair in time. You're also playing really passively, it's kind of working out this game because your opponent isn't droning very well but typically if your opponent isn't being harassed they're going to be at 80-90 drones by 12:00 and maxed out by 13-14 minutes.
If you want to play hellbat you need a third factory (with a tech lab) and you need to add in a couple thors, pure hellbat / marine will get slaughtered by high mutalisk counts.
Your upgrades are pretty late too, you'll want to start engineering bays by 8:30 or so at the latest. Mid game can be really hard if you're on 1/1 and your opponent has 2/2.
Maybe play a couple practice games and just focus on getting maxed out around 14:00, the biggest problem you have is just making your production on time and avoiding getting supply blocked.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to watch the replay. This is helpful. The timings you're indicating - are those pro timings or something that I can realistically execute at my level? I'm pretty bad still, haven't been playing Terran at this level for very long. About a week ago I used to lose to Gold players. Now I'm winning against top 10ish Diamond.
You should be able to hit them vs very easy AI after a few tries, probably not in a real game. I'm only mid masters but both I and my opponents can hit those benchmarks in game. Really just focus on getting your production up asap though, Terran production (if you get add-ons at least) takes longer than any other races to get going even if you have a pretty complicated add-on swapping setup like most pros do, while Zerg's takes the least amount of time and resources. So it's really important you minimize that window where you have very little unit production after 3CC and your opponent has 3-4 hatch worth of production (typically 8:00-10:00 or so) or you're going to start losing a lot of games to unit floods around the 8-11 minute mark even if you scout them.
Yeah I think I'm getting a little too caught up in microing my first few Reapers and Hellions and not giving macro enough attention. Will focus on getting all that stuff earlier as I'm sure it will help as I make my way up the ladder.
Thanks.
What kind of players are you playing now with terran?
Ranges from gold to top 10 Diamond. I'm still playing unranked only. My strongest/main race has been Protoss for a long time so that MMR is likely much higher (ranked). But I think I'm almost caught up on my unranked.
As far as play styles, it's mostly ling bane muta. I lost to a roach bane allin with this build but it was more my fault for not scouting it (got my reaper killed doing something silly). Protoss is all over the place. Terran seems to bee on the cheesy side.
Hmm, diamond is the highest you say. This might sound weird but I suggest not even bothering with reapers and hellions in tvz then. I haven't played much since my win rates vs toss plummeted, but when I still was in a clan I wrecked all zergs in our clan tournaments without dropping a map. They were mid-master lvl I suppose. That was pre widow mine nerf, doesn't matter just parade push with pure bio then. If you're interested I could share some replays. Since it's a BO1 on ladder you can get away with doing it every single game while having a good win ratio. And if you don't feel safe doing it you could always open with 14cc 16gas for a factory(rax tl for 2/3 tanks) before your 3rd cc.
It's a rip off from a Bomber build into the style were he does a parade push with just mmm.
I actually prefer to be aggressive because I feel that when I don't make the reapers / hellions (say I CC first into bio)... Zerg just gets waaaaay out of hand.
Plus I want to improve my multitasking skills. As Protoss one of my greatest strengths is harassing my opponent to death while I macro behind it.. So if I can get my Terran macro up to where my Protoss used to be (was Masters 1-2 seasons) it should pay off.
I know that the way of playing tvz I'm proposing entirely skips the early game but the mid game is absurdly strong, since you just overwhelm your opponent with a never ending stream of units, which is called good macro.
There's also the middle ground where you don't forgo hellions.
But don't wall like that on ladder, people tend to allin if they see this. When I don't mech and I'm not in the mood for reapers/hellions/banshee stuff, I build 3 cc's before anything else.
14cc 15 rax ramp wall off, 3rd cc asap no marines, when landing the natural wall off with a full rax wall or with rax and 2 engy bays. If you think there's aggression coming make bunkers/add more building to your wall. (Always get 2 gas at 5 minutes followed by 2 engy bays for super fast upgrading)
On March 19 2014 13:10 DinoMight wrote: Hey guys, a little help pls.
My TvZ is pretty weak at the moment. I've just started playing Terran from Protoss so I don't really know builds (and in the true Protoss way, I've just kind of winged something that works).
My build is basically "fast" (used loosely here since I'm not very good) 3 CC into a million man Marine + Hellbat + Medivacs march. The Hellbats are supposed to have blue flame, I just forgot this game. I don't scout and do 2 Reaper opening... if he's greedy I can kill a few drones, if he plays safe then we're both a little behind. Use the Reapers to scout for an allin and if I don't see one coming I proceed.
Please let me know if you can think of ways to improve / tweak this build. The one thing I don't like is my upgrades are pretty late, I think I can definitely get those out faster.
Thanks!
I noticed is that your opening is overly defensive (TvZ you can go CC before second depot + CC on the low ground and be consistently safe), this probably isn't a huge deal however.
Your 2nd and 3rd barracks are really late and your gas at your natural is really late too, looks like you're getting caught up in micro? Floating ~1k minerals and you should have your 2nd and 3rd rax done and 4th and 5th started.
Your marines are coming out pretty late, you need to have a handful (~16 or so) by 11:00 minutes to deal with mutas, I wouldn't get more than 1-2 mauraders before then and even then only if you suspect a roach timing. You've also go no add-ons on your rax (due to lack of gas?), it's inefficient to use naked rax but not the end of the world.
Really bad supply blocks at 116 and 156, and you're overmaking turrets a lot, you should really only make 1-2 turrets per mineral line in the early game because it's super important to have units out in the early stages of TvZ. Make the turrets in the mineral line too so you can repair in time. You're also playing really passively, it's kind of working out this game because your opponent isn't droning very well but typically if your opponent isn't being harassed they're going to be at 80-90 drones by 12:00 and maxed out by 13-14 minutes.
If you want to play hellbat you need a third factory (with a tech lab) and you need to add in a couple thors, pure hellbat / marine will get slaughtered by high mutalisk counts.
Your upgrades are pretty late too, you'll want to start engineering bays by 8:30 or so at the latest. Mid game can be really hard if you're on 1/1 and your opponent has 2/2.
Maybe play a couple practice games and just focus on getting maxed out around 14:00, the biggest problem you have is just making your production on time and avoiding getting supply blocked.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to watch the replay. This is helpful. The timings you're indicating - are those pro timings or something that I can realistically execute at my level? I'm pretty bad still, haven't been playing Terran at this level for very long. About a week ago I used to lose to Gold players. Now I'm winning against top 10ish Diamond.
You should be able to hit them vs very easy AI after a few tries, probably not in a real game. I'm only mid masters but both I and my opponents can hit those benchmarks in game. Really just focus on getting your production up asap though, Terran production (if you get add-ons at least) takes longer than any other races to get going even if you have a pretty complicated add-on swapping setup like most pros do, while Zerg's takes the least amount of time and resources. So it's really important you minimize that window where you have very little unit production after 3CC and your opponent has 3-4 hatch worth of production (typically 8:00-10:00 or so) or you're going to start losing a lot of games to unit floods around the 8-11 minute mark even if you scout them.
Yeah I think I'm getting a little too caught up in microing my first few Reapers and Hellions and not giving macro enough attention. Will focus on getting all that stuff earlier as I'm sure it will help as I make my way up the ladder.
Thanks.
What kind of players are you playing now with terran?
Ranges from gold to top 10 Diamond. I'm still playing unranked only. My strongest/main race has been Protoss for a long time so that MMR is likely much higher (ranked). But I think I'm almost caught up on my unranked.
As far as play styles, it's mostly ling bane muta. I lost to a roach bane allin with this build but it was more my fault for not scouting it (got my reaper killed doing something silly). Protoss is all over the place. Terran seems to bee on the cheesy side.
Hmm, diamond is the highest you say. This might sound weird but I suggest not even bothering with reapers and hellions in tvz then. I haven't played much since my win rates vs toss plummeted, but when I still was in a clan I wrecked all zergs in our clan tournaments without dropping a map. They were mid-master lvl I suppose. That was pre widow mine nerf, doesn't matter just parade push with pure bio then. If you're interested I could share some replays. Since it's a BO1 on ladder you can get away with doing it every single game while having a good win ratio. And if you don't feel safe doing it you could always open with 14cc 16gas for a factory(rax tl for 2/3 tanks) before your 3rd cc.
It's a rip off from a Bomber build into the style were he does a parade push with just mmm.
I actually prefer to be aggressive because I feel that when I don't make the reapers / hellions (say I CC first into bio)... Zerg just gets waaaaay out of hand.
Plus I want to improve my multitasking skills. As Protoss one of my greatest strengths is harassing my opponent to death while I macro behind it.. So if I can get my Terran macro up to where my Protoss used to be (was Masters 1-2 seasons) it should pay off.
I know that the way of playing tvz I'm proposing entirely skips the early game but the mid game is absurdly strong, since you just overwhelm your opponent with a never ending stream of units, which is called good macro.
There's also the middle ground where you don't forgo hellions.
But don't wall like that on ladder, people tend to allin if they see this. When I don't mech and I'm not in the mood for reapers/hellions/banshee stuff, I build 3 cc's before anything else.
14cc 15 rax ramp wall off, 3rd cc asap no marines, when landing the natural wall off with a full rax wall or with rax and 2 engy bays. If you think there's aggression coming make bunkers/add more building to your wall. (Always get 2 gas at 5 minutes followed by 2 engy bays for super fast upgrading)
Bomber does a couple tweaks to this style that make it viable though, he produces out of 9-10 barracks off of 3 bases so he can compensate for initial bad trades with extra production, and he also forgoes a 4th base because of this. And even still, he will lose if he lets army sizes get too large, and he will lose if he ever lets up aggression because then zerg can gather a critical amount of banes and/or mutas. And it's not always possible for him to keep the game from going to a maxed vs. maxed situation, in which he can only trade semi-evenly because he has godlike micro.
On March 18 2014 21:45 SoleSteeler wrote: So TvZ... I complained about it last page, people gave good advice to raise mouse DPI for better splitting, practice splitting in custom maps; thanks for those replies.
My micro isn't actually that bad, it's mostly... staying calm and anticipating the split that bothers me. Sometimes I can pre-split well and it works. Also, I recently starting playing on the Korean server whereas before I always played on NA (since all my friends were there) even though I live in Korea. Playing on Korea with zero latency is helping my confidence with micro a lot.
That said, my TvZ is still so damn bad. I honestly can't remember the last time I won a game (as random, TvZs don't happen every play session). Anyway, I need to learn to make banshees and harrass with my hellions I think. I find I make hellions and I'm fairly active with them, but otherwise I just play too passively, and then I'm pinned in my base by mutas while they take the map, and I'm overrun by superior economy/tech. I understand that I should send a squad of like 16 marines/2 medivacs and clear creep while defending at home... with the aim to keep the zerg on 3 bases... god damn, it's still hard to do. >_< I'll improve... I just need to keep trying it...
edit: 5-19 in TvZ in HOTS. Obviously I haven't played that many games. 29% win ratio with terran overall (69% with zerg and 65% with protoss). I guess it's a bit stupid to think I can be decent at 9 matchups with the amount I actually play. :/
Perhaps playing more agressive openings would give you better understanding of the flow of TvZ. Maybe try a 3 rax Hellions Medivac timing (+2 rax instead of a third CC), you can have the initiative for a long time with that build.
I tried that, but I think I butchered the build... Anyway, I actually won! I think he thought I was going mech cause he made too many roaches.
What's the build exactly for that? General guidelines is all I need... rax, gas, reaper, reactor, CC, factory... then 1 rax with tech, 2 with reactors or what? I went like uh... rax, gas, reaper, reactor, factory, CC, rax, rax, when I switched rax/factory I made a tech lab and stim right away, port, port made its own reactor... 1 reactor 1 rax, 2 tech...
Anyway it was a mess. But I'm happy I won. I attacked way too late but it worked.
edit: played another TvZ... my build is very sloppy... this is the kind of mutalisk game I get frustrated by.
my early game sucked but I didn't get hurt too bad. I tried the 3 rax hellions/medivac but obviously I don't know the exact build. Mid-late game my splits weren't that good but at least I won some engagements and it seemed the banes weren't trading too effectively. Any general advice for me, anyone? http://drop.sc/377163
edit2: and i know I fucked up like my SCV rally at the start, didn't queue a second hellion, could have killed another drone probably with my reaper, misrallied my CC not into my natural, etc. I'm talking more mid-late game, if possible. And not queue up 10 scvs (ugh) etc.. ugh. I'm not usually that sloppy. I was on tilt losing two ZvZs in a row vs. the same guy
Ugh I messed up the timing attack so badly anyway, if my army was together maybe i coulda won. I don't even know why I bother uploading this replay... (Watching replay and editing this all in >_<)
final edit: no combat shields :|
I guess if I reflect... If I had sat at my new bases until I made turrets (leave reinforcements at home to defend home) I probably could have won or at least lasted a lot longer. My splitting is basically non-existant so I'll continue to work on that, too... Blue flame hellbats probably could have been a good addition... I'm not very good with mines Anyway, more advice is welcome.
My TvZ is improving slowly (yay!) but I'm having a lot of trouble against the mass queen fast 3 base opening. My early game harass does absolutely nothing... he just keeps transfusing and holds off everything with only queens.
Then by the time I'm trying to start pushing out he already has so much stuff that I can't ever get any momentum going. And because of all the queens his creep spread is ridiculous and I'm forced into terrible engagements.
On March 20 2014 22:25 DinoMight wrote: Hello again!
My TvZ is improving slowly (yay!) but I'm having a lot of trouble against the mass queen fast 3 base opening. My early game harass does absolutely nothing... he just keeps transfusing and holds off everything with only queens.
Then by the time I'm trying to start pushing out he already has so much stuff that I can't ever get any momentum going. And because of all the queens his creep spread is ridiculous and I'm forced into terrible engagements.
Any advice against this opening? Thanks!
The stuff I posted works against this because you're setting up such a strong eco for the midgame you can go toe to toe with the zerg.
I noticed is that your opening is overly defensive (TvZ you can go CC before second depot + CC on the low ground and be consistently safe), this probably isn't a huge deal however.
Your 2nd and 3rd barracks are really late and your gas at your natural is really late too, looks like you're getting caught up in micro? Floating ~1k minerals and you should have your 2nd and 3rd rax done and 4th and 5th started.
Your marines are coming out pretty late, you need to have a handful (~16 or so) by 11:00 minutes to deal with mutas, I wouldn't get more than 1-2 mauraders before then and even then only if you suspect a roach timing. You've also go no add-ons on your rax (due to lack of gas?), it's inefficient to use naked rax but not the end of the world.
Really bad supply blocks at 116 and 156, and you're overmaking turrets a lot, you should really only make 1-2 turrets per mineral line in the early game because it's super important to have units out in the early stages of TvZ. Make the turrets in the mineral line too so you can repair in time. You're also playing really passively, it's kind of working out this game because your opponent isn't droning very well but typically if your opponent isn't being harassed they're going to be at 80-90 drones by 12:00 and maxed out by 13-14 minutes.
If you want to play hellbat you need a third factory (with a tech lab) and you need to add in a couple thors, pure hellbat / marine will get slaughtered by high mutalisk counts.
Your upgrades are pretty late too, you'll want to start engineering bays by 8:30 or so at the latest. Mid game can be really hard if you're on 1/1 and your opponent has 2/2.
Maybe play a couple practice games and just focus on getting maxed out around 14:00, the biggest problem you have is just making your production on time and avoiding getting supply blocked.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to watch the replay. This is helpful. The timings you're indicating - are those pro timings or something that I can realistically execute at my level? I'm pretty bad still, haven't been playing Terran at this level for very long. About a week ago I used to lose to Gold players. Now I'm winning against top 10ish Diamond.
You should be able to hit them vs very easy AI after a few tries, probably not in a real game. I'm only mid masters but both I and my opponents can hit those benchmarks in game. Really just focus on getting your production up asap though, Terran production (if you get add-ons at least) takes longer than any other races to get going even if you have a pretty complicated add-on swapping setup like most pros do, while Zerg's takes the least amount of time and resources. So it's really important you minimize that window where you have very little unit production after 3CC and your opponent has 3-4 hatch worth of production (typically 8:00-10:00 or so) or you're going to start losing a lot of games to unit floods around the 8-11 minute mark even if you scout them.
Yeah I think I'm getting a little too caught up in microing my first few Reapers and Hellions and not giving macro enough attention. Will focus on getting all that stuff earlier as I'm sure it will help as I make my way up the ladder.
Thanks.
What kind of players are you playing now with terran?
Ranges from gold to top 10 Diamond. I'm still playing unranked only. My strongest/main race has been Protoss for a long time so that MMR is likely much higher (ranked). But I think I'm almost caught up on my unranked.
As far as play styles, it's mostly ling bane muta. I lost to a roach bane allin with this build but it was more my fault for not scouting it (got my reaper killed doing something silly). Protoss is all over the place. Terran seems to bee on the cheesy side.
Hmm, diamond is the highest you say. This might sound weird but I suggest not even bothering with reapers and hellions in tvz then. I haven't played much since my win rates vs toss plummeted, but when I still was in a clan I wrecked all zergs in our clan tournaments without dropping a map. They were mid-master lvl I suppose. That was pre widow mine nerf, doesn't matter just parade push with pure bio then. If you're interested I could share some replays. Since it's a BO1 on ladder you can get away with doing it every single game while having a good win ratio. And if you don't feel safe doing it you could always open with 14cc 16gas for a factory(rax tl for 2/3 tanks) before your 3rd cc.
It's a rip off from a Bomber build into the style were he does a parade push with just mmm.
I actually prefer to be aggressive because I feel that when I don't make the reapers / hellions (say I CC first into bio)... Zerg just gets waaaaay out of hand.
Plus I want to improve my multitasking skills. As Protoss one of my greatest strengths is harassing my opponent to death while I macro behind it.. So if I can get my Terran macro up to where my Protoss used to be (was Masters 1-2 seasons) it should pay off.
I know that the way of playing tvz I'm proposing entirely skips the early game but the mid game is absurdly strong, since you just overwhelm your opponent with a never ending stream of units, which is called good macro.
There's also the middle ground where you don't forgo hellions.
But don't wall like that on ladder, people tend to allin if they see this. When I don't mech and I'm not in the mood for reapers/hellions/banshee stuff, I build 3 cc's before anything else.
14cc 15 rax ramp wall off, 3rd cc asap no marines, when landing the natural wall off with a full rax wall or with rax and 2 engy bays. If you think there's aggression coming make bunkers/add more building to your wall. (Always get 2 gas at 5 minutes followed by 2 engy bays for super fast upgrading)
Bomber does a couple tweaks to this style that make it viable though, he produces out of 9-10 barracks off of 3 bases so he can compensate for initial bad trades with extra production, and he also forgoes a 4th base because of this. And even still, he will lose if he lets army sizes get too large, and he will lose if he ever lets up aggression because then zerg can gather a critical amount of banes and/or mutas. And it's not always possible for him to keep the game from going to a maxed vs. maxed situation, in which he can only trade semi-evenly because he has godlike micro.
I asked dinomight vs what people he was playing and they were diamond, yes I watched his replays he floats huge amounts of resources before he's maxed. If he were to execute this style and simply convert all his resources into marines he would simply overrun all these diamond players before hive with some decent splitting.
On March 20 2014 22:25 DinoMight wrote: Hello again!
My TvZ is improving slowly (yay!) but I'm having a lot of trouble against the mass queen fast 3 base opening. My early game harass does absolutely nothing... he just keeps transfusing and holds off everything with only queens.
Then by the time I'm trying to start pushing out he already has so much stuff that I can't ever get any momentum going. And because of all the queens his creep spread is ridiculous and I'm forced into terrible engagements.
Any advice against this opening? Thanks!
You are correct in thinking that you can't deal any reliable damage, just play out the macro game.
Try to land your 3rd CC asap since he won't be able to pressure it, and use the hellions to deny creep.
You should be able to execute a drop combined with a hellion runby before his mutas are out, this works well against queen openings.
Ok I'll try it out. Still very new to Terran at this level (I've been mid plat-ish for a while but never this good at it) so just need my macro to catch up.
I feel awkward not attacking the Zerg but if his defense is really strong it seems like I should just be macroing, now that I think about it.
On March 18 2014 21:45 SoleSteeler wrote: So TvZ... I complained about it last page, people gave good advice to raise mouse DPI for better splitting, practice splitting in custom maps; thanks for those replies.
My micro isn't actually that bad, it's mostly... staying calm and anticipating the split that bothers me. Sometimes I can pre-split well and it works. Also, I recently starting playing on the Korean server whereas before I always played on NA (since all my friends were there) even though I live in Korea. Playing on Korea with zero latency is helping my confidence with micro a lot.
That said, my TvZ is still so damn bad. I honestly can't remember the last time I won a game (as random, TvZs don't happen every play session). Anyway, I need to learn to make banshees and harrass with my hellions I think. I find I make hellions and I'm fairly active with them, but otherwise I just play too passively, and then I'm pinned in my base by mutas while they take the map, and I'm overrun by superior economy/tech. I understand that I should send a squad of like 16 marines/2 medivacs and clear creep while defending at home... with the aim to keep the zerg on 3 bases... god damn, it's still hard to do. >_< I'll improve... I just need to keep trying it...
edit: 5-19 in TvZ in HOTS. Obviously I haven't played that many games. 29% win ratio with terran overall (69% with zerg and 65% with protoss). I guess it's a bit stupid to think I can be decent at 9 matchups with the amount I actually play. :/
Perhaps playing more agressive openings would give you better understanding of the flow of TvZ. Maybe try a 3 rax Hellions Medivac timing (+2 rax instead of a third CC), you can have the initiative for a long time with that build.
I tried that, but I think I butchered the build... Anyway, I actually won! I think he thought I was going mech cause he made too many roaches.
What's the build exactly for that? General guidelines is all I need... rax, gas, reaper, reactor, CC, factory... then 1 rax with tech, 2 with reactors or what? I went like uh... rax, gas, reaper, reactor, factory, CC, rax, rax, when I switched rax/factory I made a tech lab and stim right away, port, port made its own reactor... 1 reactor 1 rax, 2 tech...
You just execute your normal 3cc hellion opener, but instead of a 3rd cc, you add 2 rax. These make their own reactors. I'd start gas around when you start the starport, which gets the factories reactor.
On March 20 2014 22:25 DinoMight wrote: Hello again!
My TvZ is improving slowly (yay!) but I'm having a lot of trouble against the mass queen fast 3 base opening. My early game harass does absolutely nothing... he just keeps transfusing and holds off everything with only queens.
Then by the time I'm trying to start pushing out he already has so much stuff that I can't ever get any momentum going. And because of all the queens his creep spread is ridiculous and I'm forced into terrible engagements.
Any advice against this opening? Thanks!
I'd advice you to always open with a fast 3rd CC, you can try banshee but at your level it requires too much multitask to be able to make it worth it. If you focus on your micro, you might kill 15 drones and queens, but you will still be behind because you will reach 1500 minerals and won't produce scv in the meantime. The must is the old fashioned 2 reapers expand into 6 hellions. If he goes for a fast gaz, keep harassing and denying the 3rd and forcing gling production, while getting your own 3rd safe and going back with your hellions. If he goes heavy queen gazless, depending on the map you might be able to deny the 3rd for a long time or at least delaying his saturation on this one. Just take care to scout if he doesn't muta off 2 bases and you are good to go to play a big macro game. I personally (when I play bio) love the CC first into 3rd after factory whiule getting 2 ebay at 6:30. And I make a few mines into hellbat with a huge push around 14 with 2/2 and ~190 supply (I once reached 200 at 13:30 with real good macro). It is a fun playstyle but very macro demanding and you HAVE to scout like a madman because oof the greediness of the build.
On March 20 2014 22:25 DinoMight wrote: Hello again!
My TvZ is improving slowly (yay!) but I'm having a lot of trouble against the mass queen fast 3 base opening. My early game harass does absolutely nothing... he just keeps transfusing and holds off everything with only queens.
Then by the time I'm trying to start pushing out he already has so much stuff that I can't ever get any momentum going. And because of all the queens his creep spread is ridiculous and I'm forced into terrible engagements.
Any advice against this opening? Thanks!
I'd advice you to always open with a fast 3rd CC, you can try banshee but at your level it requires too much multitask to be able to make it worth it. If you focus on your micro, you might kill 15 drones and queens, but you will still be behind because you will reach 1500 minerals and won't produce scv in the meantime. The must is the old fashioned 2 reapers expand into 6 hellions. If he goes for a fast gaz, keep harassing and denying the 3rd and forcing gling production, while getting your own 3rd safe and going back with your hellions. If he goes heavy queen gazless, depending on the map you might be able to deny the 3rd for a long time or at least delaying his saturation on this one. Just take care to scout if he doesn't muta off 2 bases and you are good to go to play a big macro game. I personally (when I play bio) love the CC first into 3rd after factory whiule getting 2 ebay at 6:30. And I make a few mines into hellbat with a huge push around 14 with 2/2 and ~190 supply (I once reached 200 at 13:30 with real good macro). It is a fun playstyle but very macro demanding and you HAVE to scout like a madman because oof the greediness of the build.
I have no problem with TvZ when he's getting gas and doing all the normal stuff. It's just specifically against the fast 3 base, no gas, tons of queens build. My reapers/Hellions don't do anything and I can't pressure at all because of the fast 3CC... so I feel that by the time we both get our bases running I'm already way behind.
On March 20 2014 22:25 DinoMight wrote: Hello again!
My TvZ is improving slowly (yay!) but I'm having a lot of trouble against the mass queen fast 3 base opening. My early game harass does absolutely nothing... he just keeps transfusing and holds off everything with only queens.
Then by the time I'm trying to start pushing out he already has so much stuff that I can't ever get any momentum going. And because of all the queens his creep spread is ridiculous and I'm forced into terrible engagements.
Any advice against this opening? Thanks!
I'd advice you to always open with a fast 3rd CC, you can try banshee but at your level it requires too much multitask to be able to make it worth it. If you focus on your micro, you might kill 15 drones and queens, but you will still be behind because you will reach 1500 minerals and won't produce scv in the meantime. The must is the old fashioned 2 reapers expand into 6 hellions. If he goes for a fast gaz, keep harassing and denying the 3rd and forcing gling production, while getting your own 3rd safe and going back with your hellions. If he goes heavy queen gazless, depending on the map you might be able to deny the 3rd for a long time or at least delaying his saturation on this one. Just take care to scout if he doesn't muta off 2 bases and you are good to go to play a big macro game. I personally (when I play bio) love the CC first into 3rd after factory whiule getting 2 ebay at 6:30. And I make a few mines into hellbat with a huge push around 14 with 2/2 and ~190 supply (I once reached 200 at 13:30 with real good macro). It is a fun playstyle but very macro demanding and you HAVE to scout like a madman because oof the greediness of the build.
I have no problem with TvZ when he's getting gas and doing all the normal stuff. It's just specifically against the fast 3 base, no gas, tons of queens build. My reapers/Hellions don't do anything and I can't pressure at all because of the fast 3CC... so I feel that by the time we both get our bases running I'm already way behind.
I've been donig a tweak to my build whenever I scout this, you need to have in mind that the mass queens opening is about being safe, spreading creep and a 3rd fast expansion.
So instead of going 2 reapers and then reacotred helions, I go up to 3 reapers and delay my factory by getting a 3rd cc faster, meaning you will have 3 ccs of 1 rax.
3 reapers can kill a queen if microed correctly, and they can snipe creep tumors.
The whole porpouse of this tweak is getting a faster 3rd cc, after this you will continue your game normally, get factory and then start stim.
I've had great succes doing this, just because the zerg can't pressure you quickly enough with no gas, slow lings will die to reapers and well thats about all he can make.
Remember to think what are the expenses of the build your opponent and how can you exploit it, no gas=no speed= no speed=no pressure, why not expand?
They only problem I see with this tweak is that you will have to micro your reapers enough in order to kill creep tumors otherwise his creep spread will be half the map once you move out.
Try it out and tell me what you think, but I think that this is a good way to exploit the mass queen build
DinoMight first of all you should take a look at when to build your rax since in the replays you shared, your infrastructure was too little too late. There's no point in getting up a fast 3 base economy if you can't convert it into units. If you can't build stuff while microing then you should move your focus towards setting up an infrastructure that converts a 3 base economy into units instead of doing both half assed. This was already posted but indeed your harassment does more damage to your own then to the zerg.
Take notes from pro's and memorize the exact time when they put down a structure. Or memorize it like this, 1 rax expand --> 3 rax, 4;30 gas--> tl -->100 gas stim --> 2nd gas --> 100 gas factory+ebay---> etc --> 8:30 2 more rax or 3rd cc --> etc etc
You wouldn't be so bothered playing vs a 6 queen opener if your own build was at least solid.
On March 21 2014 06:16 PanzerElite wrote: DinoMight first of all you should take a look at when to build your rax since in the replays you shared, your infrastructure was too little too late. There's no point in getting up a fast 3 base economy if you can't convert it into units. If you can't build stuff while microing then you should move your focus towards setting up an infrastructure that converts a 3 base economy into units instead of doing both half assed. This was already posted but indeed your harassment does more damage to your own then to the zerg.
Take notes from pro's and memorize the exact time when they put down a structure. Or memorize it like this, 1 rax expand --> 3 rax, 4;30 gas--> tl -->100 gas stim --> 2nd gas --> 100 gas factory+ebay---> etc --> 8:30 2 more rax or 3rd cc --> etc etc
You wouldn't be so bothered playing vs a 6 queen opener if your own build was at least solid.
I think that for a reaper expand, in case you were wondering, you have ccs at 4:00 and 5:05 or so, 2 extra rax/ebays/more gas at 7:30-45, depending on when you build bunkers/depots/etc. (7:05 for CC first) and then you should have medivacs by 11:00 at the latest with around 110 supply at that point (100 supply is probably acceptable.) If you don't trade at all you can max by 14:30 I think.
On March 21 2014 06:16 PanzerElite wrote: DinoMight first of all you should take a look at when to build your rax since in the replays you shared, your infrastructure was too little too late. There's no point in getting up a fast 3 base economy if you can't convert it into units. If you can't build stuff while microing then you should move your focus towards setting up an infrastructure that converts a 3 base economy into units instead of doing both half assed. This was already posted but indeed your harassment does more damage to your own then to the zerg.
Take notes from pro's and memorize the exact time when they put down a structure. Or memorize it like this, 1 rax expand --> 3 rax, 4;30 gas--> tl -->100 gas stim --> 2nd gas --> 100 gas factory+ebay---> etc --> 8:30 2 more rax or 3rd cc --> etc etc
You wouldn't be so bothered playing vs a 6 queen opener if your own build was at least solid.
I think that for a reaper expand, in case you were wondering, you have ccs at 4:00 and 5:05 or so, 2 extra rax/ebays/more gas at 7:30-45, depending on when you build bunkers/depots/etc. (7:05 for CC first) and then you should have medivacs by 11:00 at the latest with around 110 supply at that point (100 supply is probably acceptable.) If you don't trade at all you can max by 14:30 I think.
First expo is down by 3:35 (you can skip the first depot going reaper FE), otherwise everything here is right. Should also aim for Stim + CS + 1/1 upgrades by 11:00 or so.
On March 21 2014 06:16 PanzerElite wrote: DinoMight first of all you should take a look at when to build your rax since in the replays you shared, your infrastructure was too little too late. There's no point in getting up a fast 3 base economy if you can't convert it into units. If you can't build stuff while microing then you should move your focus towards setting up an infrastructure that converts a 3 base economy into units instead of doing both half assed. This was already posted but indeed your harassment does more damage to your own then to the zerg.
Take notes from pro's and memorize the exact time when they put down a structure. Or memorize it like this, 1 rax expand --> 3 rax, 4;30 gas--> tl -->100 gas stim --> 2nd gas --> 100 gas factory+ebay---> etc --> 8:30 2 more rax or 3rd cc --> etc etc
You wouldn't be so bothered playing vs a 6 queen opener if your own build was at least solid.
I think that for a reaper expand, in case you were wondering, you have ccs at 4:00 and 5:05 or so, 2 extra rax/ebays/more gas at 7:30-45, depending on when you build bunkers/depots/etc. (7:05 for CC first) and then you should have medivacs by 11:00 at the latest with around 110 supply at that point (100 supply is probably acceptable.) If you don't trade at all you can max by 14:30 I think.
First expo is down by 3:35 (you can skip the first depot going reaper FE), otherwise everything here is right. Should also aim for Stim + CS + 1/1 upgrades by 11:00 or so.
3:35 I think is only when you skip second depot, I was referring to either 12/12 2 reaper build or the 11/11 3 reaper build where you get 2 depots before cc.
I used to open 1 rax expand into double gas into mech in wings of liberty in TvT. This build was pretty much the end all be all as you could hold what I believe was every single possible all in with it.
Is this still viable or is things like double reaper too strong for this now?
On March 21 2014 21:20 shivver wrote: quick question
I used to open 1 rax expand into double gas into mech in wings of liberty in TvT. This build was pretty much the end all be all as you could hold what I believe was every single possible all in with it.
Is this still viable or is things like double reaper too strong for this now?
Reaper is the big game changer. 1 rax gasless flat out dies to Reaper.
Also banshee cloak is a little bit cheaper now so it can hit earlier (or w more banshees).
EPT
I'm talking more mid-late game, if possible. And not queue up 10 scvs (ugh) etc.. ugh. I'm not usually that sloppy. I was on tilt losing two ZvZs in a row vs. the same guy 
