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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On March 17 2014 21:38 Ryndika wrote:
Is there buildorder/replay or something detailed for standard hellion reaper triple CC 10:30 drop? Still having very unconsistent benchmark timings. Tried watching vods of forgg but I got only general idea and still miss 30-60seconds or more.
In the original post there are link to vods and replays for the build. Also a detailed build layout. Sorry was thinking of this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/425617-4m-a-guide-to-modern-tvz here is where you can find everything you want to know about the build and style.
Keep in mind people are experimenting with Hellbats over mines which seem to have better success. Its the same build but with hellbats and blue flame so done worry about it.
On March 17 2014 21:56 Nimix wrote:
With the buff mines do really massive damage in splash, but I don't think you can get enough of them in time to defend a 2 base blink (supposing you scout his stuff and play defensively)? In theory if you could get like 3/4 of them to defend the highground around a bunker on the first blink, it could be enough to push him back, but if he doesn't delay his blink in you can't have that many... And as iaguz said on half the maps of the pool the main has such a wide area where he can blink from that it's nigh impossible to defend it with a single bunker -.-
And then even if you turtle and defend, by the time you get stim you realize he took an early 3rd and has storm and colossi and you're dead anyway :D That's the worse with blink openers, it's so hard to know what you're exactly facing...
I kind of like the idea of making a viking to push the MSC back, but the dps probably wouldn't be enough to prevent blink ins, and it would prevent you to counter drop a mine, so I'm not sure it's worth it.
If you watch maru vs Zest on heavy rain in the GSL I believe you will see Maru go for his usual playstyle which allows for widow mines and he has to deal with a blink build. Afterwards he scouts templar play and plays with his bio mine style.
Day 9 has a daily on it that explains the general thought process for Maru with regards to using mines against protoss. His setup is the same with 3 rax into starport but he reactors the factory again and if he scouts templar play goes mines. Other wise he swaps the factory onto the 4/5 barracks.
It is better to just not produce mines if you went for 3 rax play and get maruaders and medivacs out ASAP. Mines arent as good because of the lack of inconsitency in dealing with blink. It can be abused or just completely ignored. Maruaders however are going to do the damage and soak up alot of damage too. If you went for 1/1/1 widow mine drop after expo then as explained above your pretty screwed. The mines just won cut it for defence and tanks arent great either. Unless its a very good map for tanks like polar night/frost/habitation station. Even then they still kind of suck but if you go 1/1/1 you have no other choice.
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Hey guys, this question may have been answered before so sorry if that is the case. How do I beat a (suspected) proxy second rax reaper in tvt on yeonsu? I always get either a reaper expand or 2 rax reaper on this map, and I always lose way too much early on. I generally go 12 rax 15 gas, then expand in the main base. I place my barracks away from cliffs so as not to lose rallying marines. My first marine goes to the little jump-up area in the main, the second marine goes to the cliff at the ramp. Once I confirm more then 1 reaper I keep my marines in one tight group, but I always get outmanouvered due to the ridiculous cliff area. I end up losing enough scvs that an economic victory seems impossible at this point.
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I am having trouble in TvZ with my tech lab and reactor count. I have a really bad habit of only making one tech lab for upgrades and put reactors on everything else in this match up. I know I could use more muraders to help against banelings and late game ultras, but if I make too many I cannot handle the mutalisk. How many techlabs and reactors should I be building on my barracks? I assume it may be different in roach/hydra as oppose to muta/ling/bane.
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Hello TL Terran forum 
Why don't more people use sensor towers? I find them incredibly useful in TvT where positioning is so important. 1 sensor tower definitely > 1 tank if it allows you to siege correctly pre-emptively in my mind. What's the tradeoff?
Also, is Mech > Bio in TvT right now? Whenever I go bio I find that the Mech player is just able to get 3/3 air faster than me because of the way upgrades work. So even if I'm maxed on 6 bases i just can't catch up because his army quality is better than mine and once I trade I can't remax fast enough on air. Also, since I also have Tanks in my composition I'm researching Vehicle weapons as well in addition to my bio ups.. just seems innefficient.
EDIT - I know bio is supposed to expand more etc. but how do you deny expansions to a guy who is just going mass turrets/tanks turtle and getting 3/3 Air? Once he's on 3-4 bases he's got all the resources he needs really.
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On March 18 2014 00:22 DinoMight wrote:Hello TL Terran forum Why don't more people use sensor towers? I find them incredibly useful in TvT where positioning is so important. 1 sensor tower definitely > 1 tank if it allows you to siege correctly pre-emptively in my mind. What's the tradeoff? Also, is Mech > Bio in TvT right now? Whenever I go bio I find that the Mech player is just able to get 3/3 air faster than me because of the way upgrades work. So even if I'm maxed on 6 bases i just can't catch up because his army quality is better than mine and once I trade I can't remax fast enough on air.
Sensor towers are a bit of a luxury item in TvT, but if you can afford them they're super useful and you see them often in this matchup. In early-mid game TvT what you're spending your gas on is super important (upgrades / tanks / medivacs / ect), it's usually better to add on another tank / factory / start +2 ect than add a sensor tower at these stages. The other problem with them is that they're pretty vulnerable and therefor typically only useful defensively. Since so much of TvT is about positioning, you don't want to let your opponent get into a good position on your side of the map. But once you get into late game where you're taking your fourth and opening up a lot of attack paths you pretty much have to start adding them on to cover all the attack / drop paths, especially on maps like Alterzim.
I'll typically have individual marines spread out across the map scouting for drops / ect and send a couple out in front of my army, this gives me even better information without cutting into my gas count in mid game, then start to add on sensor towers once I'm on / soon to be on a 4 base economy.
BioTank is definitely viable vs Mech, The key is to be expanding aggressively (this forces the Mech player to try to catch up with you on expansions) while poking around, then split your army into 2-3 groups and be constantly pressuring all of his defenses while slowly going into your air transition. If he doesn't try to keep up in expansions, soft contain him and go into your air transition more rapidly off of a superior gas count. You shouldn't be playing it like lose army -> air transition, it should be more like losing 3-4 units from attrition when retreating from multipronged harass and adding on air units to replace them; if your main army gets killed you need to remake it in BioTank. And if your opponent doesn't transition into air you don't really need to either, BioTank can trade pretty evenly vs Mech with good engagements / counter attacks. Pure Bio is playable but considerably weaker in my opinion since it doesn't have as much delaying power vs mech pushes, and you want to be able to delay mech armies as much as possible because once they're in position they're extremely difficult to break.
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Thanks. Couple more things:
Is a really fast bunker at the natural pretty much necessary when doing 1 rax reaper expand vs Protoss? I'm going rax, reaper, CC, reactor, bunker at the natural, marines vs. Protoss and it seems to be the only way you can hold a MsC/Stalker pressure if you open Reaper.
Also in TvZ does anyone have a vod of the Terran going bio + Hellbats? I like this style a bit better than Widow Mines because I find it much easier to push forward with. Whenever I unburrow mines to move them forward I tend to just die to 1A (lol). But with Hellbats/bio as long as I split really hard and keep macroing and streaming in units it just seems to work.
Thanks!
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On March 18 2014 01:04 DinoMight wrote:
Thanks. Couple more things:
Is a really fast bunker at the natural pretty much necessary when doing 1 rax reaper expand vs Protoss? I'm going rax, reaper, CC, reactor, bunker at the natural, marines vs. Protoss and it seems to be the only way you can hold a MsC/Stalker pressure if you open Reaper.
Also in TvZ does anyone have a vod of the Terran going bio + Hellbats? I like this style a bit better than Widow Mines because I find it much easier to push forward with. Whenever I unburrow mines to move them forward I tend to just die to 1A (lol). But with Hellbats/bio as long as I split really hard and keep macroing and streaming in units it just seems to work.
Thanks!
The fast Bunker is necessary if Protoss pokes with Zealot/Stalker(s)/MSC (= your Reaper sees Zealot/MSC heading towards your base, followed by a Stalker), otherwise you can skip it.
Here is a VOD of me playing bio/Hellbats. Forgive my terrible play, I was ill at this time.
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I think I might not have understood something about this new HOTS game... Are you supposed to be able to win TvPs? Or am I just missing something here? It doesnt seem like they can actually be behind by default. Is this a glitch or a bug or something? Do I need to call tech support?
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On March 18 2014 01:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 01:04 DinoMight wrote:
Thanks. Couple more things:
Is a really fast bunker at the natural pretty much necessary when doing 1 rax reaper expand vs Protoss? I'm going rax, reaper, CC, reactor, bunker at the natural, marines vs. Protoss and it seems to be the only way you can hold a MsC/Stalker pressure if you open Reaper.
Also in TvZ does anyone have a vod of the Terran going bio + Hellbats? I like this style a bit better than Widow Mines because I find it much easier to push forward with. Whenever I unburrow mines to move them forward I tend to just die to 1A (lol). But with Hellbats/bio as long as I split really hard and keep macroing and streaming in units it just seems to work.
Thanks! The fast Bunker is necessary if Protoss pokes with Zealot/Stalker(s)/MSC (= your Reaper sees Zealot/MSC heading towards your base, followed by a Stalker), otherwise you can skip it. Here is a VOD of me playing bio/Hellbats. Forgive my terrible play, I was ill at this time.
Thanks.
Is it cutting it too close to also engineering bay block them at the same time? If they pull all their units to do this poke they won't have any to clear out the engy and therefore are blocked for a really long time. Either that or it forces them into an allin which you can see coming.
But I fear for my life sometimes doing that since it's 125 minerals not spent on a barracks.
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On March 18 2014 01:22 Rambolav wrote:
I think I might not have understood something about this new HOTS game... Are you supposed to be able to win TvPs? Or am I just missing something here? It doesnt seem like they can actually be behind by default. Is this a glitch or a bug or something? Do I need to call tech support?
Lol this is probably going to get a warning but it's funny.
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On March 18 2014 01:30 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 01:12 TheDwf wrote:On March 18 2014 01:04 DinoMight wrote:
Thanks. Couple more things:
Is a really fast bunker at the natural pretty much necessary when doing 1 rax reaper expand vs Protoss? I'm going rax, reaper, CC, reactor, bunker at the natural, marines vs. Protoss and it seems to be the only way you can hold a MsC/Stalker pressure if you open Reaper.
Also in TvZ does anyone have a vod of the Terran going bio + Hellbats? I like this style a bit better than Widow Mines because I find it much easier to push forward with. Whenever I unburrow mines to move them forward I tend to just die to 1A (lol). But with Hellbats/bio as long as I split really hard and keep macroing and streaming in units it just seems to work.
Thanks! The fast Bunker is necessary if Protoss pokes with Zealot/Stalker(s)/MSC (= your Reaper sees Zealot/MSC heading towards your base, followed by a Stalker), otherwise you can skip it. Here is a VOD of me playing bio/Hellbats. Forgive my terrible play, I was ill at this time. Thanks. Is it cutting it too close to also engineering bay block them at the same time? If they pull all their units to do this poke they won't have any to clear out the engy and therefore are blocked for a really long time. Either that or it forces them into an allin which you can see coming. But I fear for my life sometimes doing that since it's 125 minerals not spent on a barracks.
If you want to EB block, you do it before the CC, so it's fine. They will usually clear it before moving out.
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Isn't it generally considered to only be worth EB blocking if the protoss skips zealot? As zealot DPS is going to kill it pretty quickly whereas just a stalker and MSC will take longer.
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On March 18 2014 02:47 Dunmer wrote:
Isn't it generally considered to only be worth EB blocking if the protoss skips zealot? As zealot DPS is going to kill it pretty quickly whereas just a stalker and MSC will take longer.
Yes, but with the reaper you can pick away at the Zealot and force him back delaying him from clearing the EB until his MsC / Stalker are finished. Then you just cancel and go home and he's made a useless Zealot.
You really need to be on top of your macro though because if you start the bunker a few seconds too late you will flat out jsut die to any poke.
As a Protoss player it's quite annoying to deal with when it happens to me.
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On March 18 2014 02:47 Dunmer wrote:
Isn't it generally considered to only be worth EB blocking if the protoss skips zealot? As zealot DPS is going to kill it pretty quickly whereas just a stalker and MSC will take longer.
The majority of EB blocks are done blindly, i. e. the SCV starts the EB at the natural before checking the main, so you don't know at this time. If Protoss skips the Zealot, it's a bit risky to try an EB block anyway because you cannot know yet if he wants to go Stalker/MSC expand (for instance) or go Blink (in which case the EB block is a waste of money and disrupts your build for no benefit).
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Sorry for reposting my question. I do so enjoy reading about the intricacies of EB blocking :D
How do I beat a (suspected) proxy second rax reaper in tvt on yeonsu? I always get either a reaper expand or 2 rax reaper on this map, and I always lose way too much early on. I generally go 12 rax 15 gas, then expand in the main base. I place my barracks away from cliffs so as not to lose rallying marines. My first marine goes to the little jump-up area in the main, the second marine goes to the cliff at the ramp. Once I confirm more then 1 reaper I keep my marines in one tight group, but I always get outmanouvered due to the ridiculous cliff area. I end up losing enough scvs that an economic victory seems impossible at this point.
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On March 18 2014 02:47 Dunmer wrote:
Isn't it generally considered to only be worth EB blocking if the protoss skips zealot? As zealot DPS is going to kill it pretty quickly whereas just a stalker and MSC will take longer.
I don't think so. For example flash did an ebay block vs rain recently and rain built the zealot. Flash was able to get the ebay up to +90%. An ebay block is always worth more the higher the HP and yes, if they skip the zealot they are screwed. If the zealot can cancel the ebay at like 10% then you probably fall behind a tiny bit.
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On March 18 2014 08:59 G-force wrote:
Sorry for reposting my question. I do so enjoy reading about the intricacies of EB blocking :D
How do I beat a (suspected) proxy second rax reaper in tvt on yeonsu? I always get either a reaper expand or 2 rax reaper on this map, and I always lose way too much early on. I generally go 12 rax 15 gas, then expand in the main base. I place my barracks away from cliffs so as not to lose rallying marines. My first marine goes to the little jump-up area in the main, the second marine goes to the cliff at the ramp. Once I confirm more then 1 reaper I keep my marines in one tight group, but I always get outmanouvered due to the ridiculous cliff area. I end up losing enough scvs that an economic victory seems impossible at this point.
Rush Banshee, get a hellion for defense and camp your mineral line. You'll lose a few but if you can get the banshee into his base fast enough you'll just outright win the game. I've lost games where I killed all but 3 workers to a banshee before going 2 rax reapers :/
EDIT - with your build i think you just lose. Might want to get your gas a little earlier to give yourself options on a tiny 2p map like yeonsu?
Also I've stopped 2 rax Reapers with just CC first into 3 rax marines without gas.
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On March 18 2014 08:59 G-force wrote:
Sorry for reposting my question. I do so enjoy reading about the intricacies of EB blocking :D
How do I beat a (suspected) proxy second rax reaper in tvt on yeonsu? I always get either a reaper expand or 2 rax reaper on this map, and I always lose way too much early on. I generally go 12 rax 15 gas, then expand in the main base. I place my barracks away from cliffs so as not to lose rallying marines. My first marine goes to the little jump-up area in the main, the second marine goes to the cliff at the ramp. Once I confirm more then 1 reaper I keep my marines in one tight group, but I always get outmanouvered due to the ridiculous cliff area. I end up losing enough scvs that an economic victory seems impossible at this point.
First marine to mineral line, to pull with 2 or 3 scvs to push away reaper ... pull back injured scvs and pull more as needed.
Second marine to first marine with SCVs ready to join (either in mineral line or loitering at a common cliff area)
Your goal with first two marines is not to lose third marine or first two, protect scvs building important things, kill any reapers that get greedy, and protect mineral line. The key times for these marines are mentioned in a link in first post. Remember that your SCVs are marine meat-shields which can be retreated and repaired, your marines are like precious gold.
On March 18 2014 13:32 DinoMight wrote:Rush Banshee, get a hellion for defense and camp your mineral line. You'll lose a few but if you can get the banshee into his base fast enough you'll just outright win the game. I've lost games where I killed all but 3 workers to a banshee before going 2 rax reapers :/ EDIT - with your build i think you just lose. Might want to get your gas a little earlier to give yourself options on a tiny 2p map like yeonsu? Also I've stopped 2 rax Reapers with just CC first into 3 rax marines without gas. If he proxies the first rax, this really relies on a mistake to pull a win if you CC first. On two player maps, you run the risk of
CC-building SCV snipe (forces depot when played right, hurts economy or army)
Barracks-building SCV snipe (kites chasing SCVs while right clicking building worker, repeats for replacements)
3-reaper brazen aggression sniping any produced marines, winning game outright.
NOTES: CC first vs 2Rax is workable on 4P maps in some situations. Poor scouting or poor proxying can get your first marine out. You're not in the clear, but you have something to micro with and can stay even or ahead.
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On March 18 2014 08:59 G-force wrote:
Sorry for reposting my question. I do so enjoy reading about the intricacies of EB blocking :D
How do I beat a (suspected) proxy second rax reaper in tvt on yeonsu? I always get either a reaper expand or 2 rax reaper on this map, and I always lose way too much early on. I generally go 12 rax 15 gas, then expand in the main base. I place my barracks away from cliffs so as not to lose rallying marines. My first marine goes to the little jump-up area in the main, the second marine goes to the cliff at the ramp. Once I confirm more then 1 reaper I keep my marines in one tight group, but I always get outmanouvered due to the ridiculous cliff area. I end up losing enough scvs that an economic victory seems impossible at this point.
If you're sure he's going 2 rax Reapers, skip Reactor/expand and go 1-1-1 Marines/Hellions/Medivac instead. You will be able to hold, and if he loses all his Reapers the counter-attack might kill him.
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So TvZ... I complained about it last page, people gave good advice to raise mouse DPI for better splitting, practice splitting in custom maps; thanks for those replies.
My micro isn't actually that bad, it's mostly... staying calm and anticipating the split that bothers me. Sometimes I can pre-split well and it works. Also, I recently starting playing on the Korean server whereas before I always played on NA (since all my friends were there) even though I live in Korea. Playing on Korea with zero latency is helping my confidence with micro a lot. 
That said, my TvZ is still so damn bad. I honestly can't remember the last time I won a game (as random, TvZs don't happen every play session). Anyway, I need to learn to make banshees and harrass with my hellions I think. I find I make hellions and I'm fairly active with them, but otherwise I just play too passively, and then I'm pinned in my base by mutas while they take the map, and I'm overrun by superior economy/tech. I understand that I should send a squad of like 16 marines/2 medivacs and clear creep while defending at home... with the aim to keep the zerg on 3 bases... god damn, it's still hard to do. >_< I'll improve... I just need to keep trying it...
edit: 5-19 in TvZ in HOTS. Obviously I haven't played that many games. 29% win ratio with terran overall (69% with zerg and 65% with protoss). I guess it's a bit stupid to think I can be decent at 9 matchups with the amount I actually play. :/
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