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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On February 23 2014 06:41 TimAfsum wrote:Quick question here. Say I have 13 raxes and want to make a round of marines. That means hitting the hotkey for marines 13 TIMES, it just seems so unefficient. There must be a more efficient and not as time consuming way to do this. Please let me know if you do know one 
Hold your a key down. Set your keyboard to a high repeat rate.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37108 Posts
How do you win TvZ? I don't understand this match-up anymore...
Hellions? Can't prevent creep spread because of the sheer number of queens and lings
Tanks? Food to mutas
Widow mines? No longer effective cause of the nerf
Thors? Super slow and expensive
I just don't understand how to win this match-up anymore...
Here is how I open TvZ:
12 gas into reaper
100 gas into factory
50 gas into reactor
CC once I hit 400
extend to 2 more barracks for a total of 3
start widow mine production as soon as I get 6 hellions
push out and pressure with marine + widow mine + medivac
get rolled over by speed lings, banelings, mutas...
Help plz...
http://drop.sc/374688
http://drop.sc/374689
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On February 23 2014 15:45 Seeker wrote:How do you win TvZ? I don't understand this match-up anymore... Hellions? Can't prevent creep spread because of the sheer number of queens and lings Tanks? Food to mutas Widow mines? No longer effective cause of the nerf Thors? Super slow and expensive I just don't understand how to win this match-up anymore... Here is how I open TvZ: 12 gas into reaper 100 gas into factory 50 gas into reactor CC once I hit 400 extend to 2 more barracks for a total of 3 start widow mine production as soon as I get 6 hellions push out and pressure with marine + widow mine + medivac get rolled over by speed lings, banelings, mutas... Help plz... http://drop.sc/374688http://drop.sc/374689
I think your TvZ problems may stem from your build. Because you go up to 5 barracks early on, instead of 3cc/double upgrades, you need to do damage, but you don't push with any kind of urgency to do damage while you have your brief advantage, before zerg army size surpasses yours, so you don't really have much of an income to speak of while zerg surges ahead on 3-4 bases with mass units and upgrades. I think that you should either go some kind of 3cc/double upgrades build (in the OP) so you aren't behind in income the whole game, or continue the style that you are doing but simply practice engagements more so you can be more comfortable with running around, mines unburrowed to pressure in multiple places or move forward instead of sitting pre-split off creep, not moving forward at all, because that really is only useful if you are on even econ with zerg and don't need to do immediate damage (which is not the case with your build).
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11/11 !!!!!!!!!!
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open with pressure into 3cc (banshees, blue flame timing, mass hellion runbys, whatever floats ur boat), do as much daamge as possible before mutas and then go bio hellbat thor off of 8 rax, 3 fac 1 starport. With good bio thor hellabt you can take big fights vs zerg, just as long as when you engage you've pushed back enough creep and generally got the zerg defensively postured. It's really easy to fuck up your micro vs that army as zerg.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37108 Posts
On February 23 2014 16:40 ROOTiaguz wrote:
11/11 !!!!!!!!!!
OR
open with pressure into 3cc (banshees, blue flame timing, mass hellion runbys, whatever floats ur boat), do as much daamge as possible before mutas and then go bio hellbat thor off of 8 rax, 3 fac 1 starport. With good bio thor hellabt you can take big fights vs zerg, just as long as when you engage you've pushed back enough creep and generally got the zerg defensively postured. It's really easy to fuck up your micro vs that army as zerg.
Got any replays?
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Watch taeja stream.
Maru was doing it in GSL few nights ago. Games were kinda weird though.
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Hey guys so I have been playing with the knall micro map (which is great, really helped my reaper control, kind of, it is a little unrealistic but meh) and I realized that i really have no idea how to set up a marine concave.. And it has affected my TvT but i have ignored it. What exactly is the best way to go about setting up a concave? Like is there any general consensus as to the best way to go about it? Like just try and get your marines in a straight line or?
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For me the fastest way to make a concave is to see the Marine bulk as 3 thrirds and then select the left thrid and align it as a line and then continue with the right third. You can do some fine tuning depending on how much time you have to do it.
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Hm, I'm still playing bio mines in TvZ... wonder if I should switch to hellbats too? I feel like mines still do a good job at scaring the zerg and preventing him from a moving into your face when he feels like it, but I may be totally wrong.. On the other hand it's true that mines seem to not do shit anymore (in a recent game, the guy left a handful of lings and 2 banes near 2 mines, and it wasn't even enough to kill the banes).
If going hellbat/thors, do you need both gas at your 3rd? I was going with only 1 playing bio mines, but as you need mech upgrades and blue flame potentially asap, I guess a 6th gas would be cool?
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How does the bio hellbat infrastructure vary from the standard 4M ? Like are the number of factories the same, as well as the timing for the second one? And would we just start making thors asap from the tech lab'd rax? And how does the game play out? is it similar to 4M in the sense that you want to split your army well or is it that because of the hellbats and thors that you can just ctrl click your marines back? Also how does this affect the 11min push out if at all.. Can you still be as "in your face" with this style? Or will you have to sit back at some points to wait until you get out like another thor or something?
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On February 24 2014 00:16 Fhiz wrote:
How does the bio hellbat infrastructure vary from the standard 4M ? Like are the number of factories the same, as well as the timing for the second one? And would we just start making thors asap from the tech lab'd rax? And how does the game play out? is it similar to 4M in the sense that you want to split your army well or is it that because of the hellbats and thors that you can just ctrl click your marines back? Also how does this affect the 11min push out if at all.. Can you still be as "in your face" with this style? Or will you have to sit back at some points to wait until you get out like another thor or something?
Jaedong vs Mvp game 1 at Blizzcon shows Mvp using hellbat/bio style rather well. http://www.twitch.tv/wcs/b/477842650 Starts around the 7hours 30minute mark.
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holy shit i just played like this style not really understanding what to do, and I rolled my opponent, granted it is 1 game. But this seems insanely strong thanks for the tip iaguz !
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Its only has a big issue vs mass banelings, but you can drop more in this case since there muta count will be lacking. I have often wondered if they go heavy banelings should the terran just cut hellbats and go mines instead and then back to hellbats?. Drilling claws can be gotten easily and would wreck the banelings.
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On February 23 2014 16:40 ROOTiaguz wrote:
11/11 !!!!!!!!!!
OR
open with pressure into 3cc (banshees, blue flame timing, mass hellion runbys, whatever floats ur boat), do as much daamge as possible before mutas and then go bio hellbat thor off of 8 rax, 3 fac 1 starport. With good bio thor hellabt you can take big fights vs zerg, just as long as when you engage you've pushed back enough creep and generally got the zerg defensively postured. It's really easy to fuck up your micro vs that army as zerg.
Dude I asked you if that composition was viable a couple of weeks ago in your stream and you called me dumb and said I need to use mines :D
Opening hellbat drops also gives you the opportunity to do a powerful followup push with a few marauders to punish late mutas or a greedy build, anyone who hasn't tried it I suggest you give it a go!
The part about the difficult micro is true though, if you're bad at splitting under pressure keep your army pre-split with hellbats in front and just poke the zerg
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On February 22 2014 17:22 Doc Brawler wrote:
Just a bit of theorycrafting: Is there a place for late game/midgame reapers TvP? After messing around in the unit tester a bit I realized reapers, especially with upgrades do very well against gateway units and can actually avoid storms extremely easily. They don't quite have the dps of stimmed marines, but with regen, more HP (especially compared to stimmed marines) and that crazy speed they seem like a great option to poke and kite zealots, bait storms and harass.
They are very gas heavy (Other than the raven its the only unit that is not more minerals than gas) and with such a long build time they spend minerals relatively slowly while eating up gas quickly. Think of two rounds of reapers vs two rounds of marines... costs less minerals per min and a bunch of gas. At one supply, I wonder if they are worth making after the early game. ..
Nope. You just could not do anything particular with them; they cannot defend Zealots/DTs raids efficiently or sniping buildings like the WoL Reapers, and as Thezzy said their damage output is terrible when Protoss is ahead in upgrades (i. e. most of the time in midgame). Marauders are better to snipe oncoming Templars (Concussive + sturdier).
On February 23 2014 21:43 Nimix wrote:
Hm, I'm still playing bio mines in TvZ... wonder if I should switch to hellbats too? I feel like mines still do a good job at scaring the zerg and preventing him from a moving into your face when he feels like it, but I may be totally wrong.. On the other hand it's true that mines seem to not do shit anymore (in a recent game, the guy left a handful of lings and 2 banes near 2 mines, and it wasn't even enough to kill the banes).
If going hellbat/thors, do you need both gas at your 3rd? I was going with only 1 playing bio mines, but as you need mech upgrades and blue flame potentially asap, I guess a 6th gas would be cool?
I'm unsure which one if the best; honestly both struggle anyway. To me it seems it's a matter of 1. having some advantage from the opening (see what iaguz said) or 2. if the game is even, building a good army with enough Marauders/Medivacs/Thors as a support for the Marines, rather than the Hellbats or Mines choice. If you build Thors but also Marauders, yes you will need 6 gas; 5 is probably enough if you play pure Marines, but I'm not fan of this (too vulnerable to nonsensical mass of banes, see Maru vs Symbol, Habitation Station, Code S RO32 for instance).
On February 24 2014 00:16 Fhiz wrote:
How does the bio hellbat infrastructure vary from the standard 4M ?
It doesn't.
Like are the number of factories the same, as well as the timing for the second one?
Yes. With both Mines or Hellbats you can also choose to make a third factory after some time (e. g. see Polt vs Snute from IEM qualifiers).
And would we just start making thors asap from the tech lab'd rax?
Your choice.
And how does the game play out? is it similar to 4M in the sense that you want to split your army well or is it that because of the hellbats and thors that you can just ctrl click your marines back?
You can focus on your Marines and ignore the rest, but your Hellbats should be pre-positioned so they don't instantly die to banes (i. e. you have to pre-split them a bit before the battle; don't have everything in a big clump of course).
Also how does this affect the 11min push out if at all..
It doesn't, there are usually no fact units in this push.
Can you still be as "in your face" with this style? Or will you have to sit back at some points to wait until you get out like another thor or something?
Personally I have zero success with the "in your face" style since the Mine nerf; the Zerg just overruns you since Mines in low count tickle his army and don't allow you to initiate/preserve your momentum. Unless you have some kind of avantage from the opening or some kind of momentum from a successful Medivac push, you have to approach things more cautiously (i. e. no brainless rally, be sure you're not 1/1 vs 2/2 and check you have enough AoE before engaging, etc.).
On February 24 2014 02:23 MythicSC wrote:
Dude I asked you if that composition was viable a couple of weeks ago in your stream and you called me dumb and said I need to use mines :D
Being poorly understood, the tragic destiny of pioneers.
Opening hellbat drops also gives you the opportunity to do a powerful followup push with a few marauders to punish late mutas or a greedy build, anyone who hasn't tried it I suggest you give it a go!
Thing is, Hellbats drops into Hellbats/Marauders are no longer viable. When you use Hellbats, you don't open with them, you build them out of "standard builds".
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On February 23 2014 15:45 Seeker wrote:How do you win TvZ? I don't understand this match-up anymore... Hellions? Can't prevent creep spread because of the sheer number of queens and lings Tanks? Food to mutas Widow mines? No longer effective cause of the nerf Thors? Super slow and expensive I just don't understand how to win this match-up anymore... Here is how I open TvZ: 12 gas into reaper 100 gas into factory 50 gas into reactor CC once I hit 400 extend to 2 more barracks for a total of 3 start widow mine production as soon as I get 6 hellions push out and pressure with marine + widow mine + medivac get rolled over by speed lings, banelings, mutas... Help plz... http://drop.sc/374688http://drop.sc/374689
I watched the game on Polar Night and found a few things. I only focused on your build and macro, nothing else.
1. Going factory before your natural isn't a good build. However, if you wanna do this I suggest going gas first to really get a good use of those early hellions.
2. After 9:30 you only produce SCVs with your natural, I don't know if you do this by purpose of if it's a macro key binding mistake in this particular game.
3. Between 10:00 and 16:00 you don't produce a single SCV, you are stuck on 45 SCVs for 6 minutes.
4. The mistake you do on number 2 is repeated here, when you land your 3rd CC you only produce SCVs from your 3rd instead of using all your CCs.
All these mistakes made you fall so far behind economically so the game is lost somewhere between 10:00 and 16:00.
GL in the future!
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How do you win TvZ? I don't understand this match-up anymore... Hellions? Can't prevent creep spread because of the sheer number of queens and lings Tanks? Food to mutas Widow mines? No longer effective cause of the nerf Thors? Super slow and expensive I just don't understand how to win this match-up anymore... Here is how I open TvZ: 12 gas into reaper 100 gas into factory 50 gas into reactor CC once I hit 400 extend to 2 more barracks for a total of 3 start widow mine production as soon as I get 6 hellions push out and pressure with marine + widow mine + medivac get rolled over by speed lings, banelings, mutas... Help plz... http://drop.sc/374688http://drop.sc/374689
I know a lot of people have given you advice BUT, I want to give you some advice about a build i've been working on recently... this build is SOOOOOO good right now i have around 70% winrate and ForGG used it in Asus Rog almost exclusively... you know that run where he only lost 1 MAP to zerg the entire tournament and it was to a 10 P when he didnt' even use the build and went cc first hahahaha.... which is nothing wrong with CC first anyway discussion for a different day/Time.
I watched your reps and you are mechanically sound enough to pull this off so here it goes.
12/12 Reaper GO up to 2 Reapers
Use the SCV that builds the rax and wait at the ramp until you start your ORB and 2nd Reaper then build the Supply depot
Once it completes the Supply Depot you go to your Natural depending on the map by the time your reaper travels 80% of the map to your enemies base you will place the CC at your natural then immediately send 1 scv to your ramp Micro your reaper quickly then quickly go back to your ramp place factory then go back to reaper
OPtion 1 with 2nd reaper:what you do with the second reaper depends on what you did with the first if you want to harass with both reapers you have to keep your first reaper at their natural and wait until you account for the eggs that pop at the natural to make sure lings don't slip by and go after your CC building in the Nat which would kill the scv and make you behind
Option 2 with 2nd reaper: you can use the first reaper to go into their main and try to pick off Drones and keep your reaper at your natural so that you can defend if lings try to come and snipe your SCV building the natural.
*** Please note these options are stylistic and either is good and is really what you are comfortable with****
Lift your rax and put it in a position so that the reactor can complete a wall and start reactor ASAP
About 25-35 seconds of the first reaper harassing time only you will accumlate about 400 minerals you drop your 3rd CC next to your Main CC
Once your Factory and reactor complete switch off and Build Techlab on rax as close as possible without causing a block at your ramp or clutter at your ramp
Take your SCV at the Natural and start building your Wall at your natural with a Supply depot
your Techlab for the rax will finish but NOTE Start your 3rd and 4th Hellion before starting stim this is EXTREMELY important.
Your 3rd CC will complete as your 3rd and 4th hellion pop which you will be at about 49/57 supply at this time start Orb Command
once you complete your 5th and 6th hellion which you should have been on the map with the 2 reapers and 3rd and 4th hellion scouting finding a 3rd and reacting accordingly LIft your factory after the 5th and 6th hellion
place 2 rax down one where the Reactor was for the factory and land the factory and start another reacter and set up a rax so its close to the factory so you can take that reactor with the rax after it completes.
once the reactor on the factory completes swap it with the rax and start another reactor and at the same time start your 2nd refinery and starport so you can swap it with the factory.
Then place down your E-bays then 2 more rax and 2 more refineries.
Once your Factory 2nd reactor finishes then lift and swap with starport then land and start its own reactor.
Once your 3rd and 4th refinery finish at your nat place your second factory and get a tech lab on it.
make an armory at 50% 1-1 on your ebays
Then you want to land your 3rd this should be about 11:30 once your factories are operational you want to make CONSTANT mines constant and start Drilling claws ASAP on the techlab. at about 12:30 you are going ot place 3 more rax completing your 8 rax. once those 3 rax complete you want to make 2 techlabs and 1 Reactor.
THis build is EXTREMELY aggressive and sometimes requires a rework of Hotkeys you want to set yourself up so that you can have a Cam at where your army is rallied which is just something you should do anyway and 2 hotkeys set aside for hotkeys. Once you have 2 medivacs you load up a drop and GO trying to pick apart your enemy with multi pronged aggression and pushing back creep.
This is a quick overview I can go in more depth if you want to PM me but this build is seriously THE strongest right now IMO that i have seen in any tournament stream or have used myself
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On February 24 2014 09:59 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +How do you win TvZ? I don't understand this match-up anymore... Hellions? Can't prevent creep spread because of the sheer number of queens and lings Tanks? Food to mutas Widow mines? No longer effective cause of the nerf Thors? Super slow and expensive I just don't understand how to win this match-up anymore... Here is how I open TvZ: 12 gas into reaper 100 gas into factory 50 gas into reactor CC once I hit 400 extend to 2 more barracks for a total of 3 start widow mine production as soon as I get 6 hellions push out and pressure with marine + widow mine + medivac get rolled over by speed lings, banelings, mutas... Help plz... http://drop.sc/374688http://drop.sc/374689 I know a lot of people have given you advice BUT, I want to give you some advice about a build i've been working on recently... this build is SOOOOOO good right now i have around 70% winrate and ForGG used it in Asus Rog almost exclusively... you know that run where he only lost 1 MAP to zerg the entire tournament and it was to a 10 P when he didnt' even use the build and went cc first hahahaha.... which is nothing wrong with CC first anyway discussion for a different day/Time. I watched your reps and you are mechanically sound enough to pull this off so here it goes. 12/12 Reaper GO up to 2 Reapers Use the SCV that builds the rax and wait at the ramp until you start your ORB and 2nd Reaper then build the Supply depot Once it completes the Supply Depot you go to your Natural depending on the map by the time your reaper travels 80% of the map to your enemies base you will place the CC at your natural then immediately send 1 scv to your ramp Micro your reaper quickly then quickly go back to your ramp place factory then go back to reaper OPtion 1 with 2nd reaper:what you do with the second reaper depends on what you did with the first if you want to harass with both reapers you have to keep your first reaper at their natural and wait until you account for the eggs that pop at the natural to make sure lings don't slip by and go after your CC building in the Nat which would kill the scv and make you behind Option 2 with 2nd reaper: you can use the first reaper to go into their main and try to pick off Drones and keep your reaper at your natural so that you can defend if lings try to come and snipe your SCV building the natural. *** Please note these options are stylistic and either is good and is really what you are comfortable with**** Lift your rax and put it in a position so that the reactor can complete a wall and start reactor ASAP About 25-35 seconds of the first reaper harassing time only you will accumlate about 400 minerals you drop your 3rd CC next to your Main CC Once your Factory and reactor complete switch off and Build Techlab on rax as close as possible without causing a block at your ramp or clutter at your ramp Take your SCV at the Natural and start building your Wall at your natural with a Supply depot your Techlab for the rax will finish but NOTE Start your 3rd and 4th Hellion before starting stim this is EXTREMELY important. Your 3rd CC will complete as your 3rd and 4th hellion pop which you will be at about 49/57 supply at this time start Orb Command once you complete your 5th and 6th hellion which you should have been on the map with the 2 reapers and 3rd and 4th hellion scouting finding a 3rd and reacting accordingly LIft your factory after the 5th and 6th hellion place 2 rax down one where the Reactor was for the factory and land the factory and start another reacter and set up a rax so its close to the factory so you can take that reactor with the rax after it completes. once the reactor on the factory completes swap it with the rax and start another reactor and at the same time start your 2nd refinery and starport so you can swap it with the factory. Then place down your E-bays then 2 more rax and 2 more refineries. Once your Factory 2nd reactor finishes then lift and swap with starport then land and start its own reactor. Once your 3rd and 4th refinery finish at your nat place your second factory and get a tech lab on it. make an armory at 50% 1-1 on your ebays Then you want to land your 3rd this should be about 11:30 once your factories are operational you want to make CONSTANT mines constant and start Drilling claws ASAP on the techlab. at about 12:30 you are going ot place 3 more rax completing your 8 rax. once those 3 rax complete you want to make 2 techlabs and 1 Reactor. THis build is EXTREMELY aggressive and sometimes requires a rework of Hotkeys you want to set yourself up so that you can have a Cam at where your army is rallied which is just something you should do anyway and 2 hotkeys set aside for hotkeys. Once you have 2 medivacs you load up a drop and GO trying to pick apart your enemy with multi pronged aggression and pushing back creep. This is a quick overview I can go in more depth if you want to PM me but this build is seriously THE strongest right now IMO that i have seen in any tournament stream or have used myself
Assuming you are describing the build where you follow up the third cc with rax rax gas ebay ebay starport rax rax gas gas, isn't this already a pretty standard transition from any 3cc opener? I think a lot of ForGG's strength in TvZ doesn't come from this build and comes instead from the way he plays the matchup, i.e. mass drops instead of moving around with a bio deathball, because Innovation plays this exact build but does not play his games out anywhere near the same way.
On another note, when you play bio thor, can you perhaps build marauders out of 3 techlabbed rax instead of 2, because you already have the thors to handle mutas? I would think this would make things a lot harder for zerg.
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Its standard up until the 2nd factory before 8 rax..... he actually favors that way over the extra 3 rax and uses that to use smaller amounts of units and make them more effective with more widow mines so constant double drops and harass and creep push does so good.. thats how he plays it out differently LOL
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On February 24 2014 11:52 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2014 09:59 Pirfiktshon wrote:How do you win TvZ? I don't understand this match-up anymore... Hellions? Can't prevent creep spread because of the sheer number of queens and lings Tanks? Food to mutas Widow mines? No longer effective cause of the nerf Thors? Super slow and expensive I just don't understand how to win this match-up anymore... Here is how I open TvZ: 12 gas into reaper 100 gas into factory 50 gas into reactor CC once I hit 400 extend to 2 more barracks for a total of 3 start widow mine production as soon as I get 6 hellions push out and pressure with marine + widow mine + medivac get rolled over by speed lings, banelings, mutas... Help plz... http://drop.sc/374688http://drop.sc/374689I know a lot of people have given you advice BUT, I want to give you some advice about a build i've been working on recently... this build is SOOOOOO good right now i have around 70% winrate and ForGG used it in Asus Rog almost exclusively... you know that run where he only lost 1 MAP to zerg the entire tournament and it was to a 10 P when he didnt' even use the build and went cc first hahahaha.... which is nothing wrong with CC first anyway discussion for a different day/Time. I watched your reps and you are mechanically sound enough to pull this off so here it goes. 12/12 Reaper GO up to 2 Reapers Use the SCV that builds the rax and wait at the ramp until you start your ORB and 2nd Reaper then build the Supply depot Once it completes the Supply Depot you go to your Natural depending on the map by the time your reaper travels 80% of the map to your enemies base you will place the CC at your natural then immediately send 1 scv to your ramp Micro your reaper quickly then quickly go back to your ramp place factory then go back to reaper OPtion 1 with 2nd reaper:what you do with the second reaper depends on what you did with the first if you want to harass with both reapers you have to keep your first reaper at their natural and wait until you account for the eggs that pop at the natural to make sure lings don't slip by and go after your CC building in the Nat which would kill the scv and make you behind Option 2 with 2nd reaper: you can use the first reaper to go into their main and try to pick off Drones and keep your reaper at your natural so that you can defend if lings try to come and snipe your SCV building the natural. *** Please note these options are stylistic and either is good and is really what you are comfortable with**** Lift your rax and put it in a position so that the reactor can complete a wall and start reactor ASAP About 25-35 seconds of the first reaper harassing time only you will accumlate about 400 minerals you drop your 3rd CC next to your Main CC Once your Factory and reactor complete switch off and Build Techlab on rax as close as possible without causing a block at your ramp or clutter at your ramp Take your SCV at the Natural and start building your Wall at your natural with a Supply depot your Techlab for the rax will finish but NOTE Start your 3rd and 4th Hellion before starting stim this is EXTREMELY important. Your 3rd CC will complete as your 3rd and 4th hellion pop which you will be at about 49/57 supply at this time start Orb Command once you complete your 5th and 6th hellion which you should have been on the map with the 2 reapers and 3rd and 4th hellion scouting finding a 3rd and reacting accordingly LIft your factory after the 5th and 6th hellion place 2 rax down one where the Reactor was for the factory and land the factory and start another reacter and set up a rax so its close to the factory so you can take that reactor with the rax after it completes. once the reactor on the factory completes swap it with the rax and start another reactor and at the same time start your 2nd refinery and starport so you can swap it with the factory. Then place down your E-bays then 2 more rax and 2 more refineries. Once your Factory 2nd reactor finishes then lift and swap with starport then land and start its own reactor. Once your 3rd and 4th refinery finish at your nat place your second factory and get a tech lab on it. make an armory at 50% 1-1 on your ebays Then you want to land your 3rd this should be about 11:30 once your factories are operational you want to make CONSTANT mines constant and start Drilling claws ASAP on the techlab. at about 12:30 you are going ot place 3 more rax completing your 8 rax. once those 3 rax complete you want to make 2 techlabs and 1 Reactor. THis build is EXTREMELY aggressive and sometimes requires a rework of Hotkeys you want to set yourself up so that you can have a Cam at where your army is rallied which is just something you should do anyway and 2 hotkeys set aside for hotkeys. Once you have 2 medivacs you load up a drop and GO trying to pick apart your enemy with multi pronged aggression and pushing back creep. This is a quick overview I can go in more depth if you want to PM me but this build is seriously THE strongest right now IMO that i have seen in any tournament stream or have used myself Assuming you are describing the build where you follow up the third cc with rax rax gas ebay ebay starport rax rax gas gas, isn't this already a pretty standard transition from any 3cc opener? I think a lot of ForGG's strength in TvZ doesn't come from this build and comes instead from the way he plays the matchup, i.e. mass drops instead of moving around with a bio deathball, because Innovation plays this exact build but does not play his games out anywhere near the same way. On another note, when you play bio thor, can you perhaps build marauders out of 3 techlabbed rax instead of 2, because you already have the thors to handle mutas? I would think this would make things a lot harder for zerg.
I'd rather have 6 reactors and 2 techlabs for a higher DPS; you have high-space thors to block banelings, and you want the extra marines to better mow down lings.
This is as opposed to widow-mine play, where you don't have a tanky factory unit to split behind and you also have a high AoE damage unit to help with lings, so I'd rather have a 5reactor 3tl setup here.
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EPT
