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On February 06 2014 03:46 Tenks wrote:
I've been attempting, with terrible luck, to remove WM and add Hellbats out of my reactor Factory in TvZ. But, like clockwork, I just get absolutely murdered by a flood of speed lings and 12-14+ mutas in the mid game. The basic build I'm doing is CC first, 2 rax, 2 gas, Fact reactor, CC, 2x ebay. I then drop a ton of rax and armory. Get +1 vehicle for my Hellbats to deal with lings. But I still get completely and totally overwhelmed. It seemed like with mines I could just kite back into them to get some guaranteed damage but the Hellbats just get surrounded and die a gruesome death. Am I missing something about how to play this style?
As it has been pointed out, your build is not good. CC rax rax gas gas is not unheard of, but it's quite rare and transitions better into a 2 rax Hellions Medivacs timing (e. g. Mvp vs Tefel, Derelict Watcher, WCS Europe [starts at 48'30]).
As for bio/Hellbats, honestly it seems rather mediocre, and at any rate inferior to Mines. Hellbats are too easily slaughtered by mass Banelings and Speedlings on creep do not endure as much damage as you would think considering they get an auto-surround on them so quickly, reducing the amount of splash damage. That being said, it's playable with some Marauders along (2 or 3 lab rax), Thors and BFH, but just as with the "new" bio/Mines you have to pick your fights wisely and wait some critical mass for bigger engagements, otherwise you just get overrun. Watch for instance FanTaSy vs TRUE, Star Station, SPL.
On February 06 2014 04:20 noSec wrote:
Hey guys,
With the new patch is it possible to do something like an early "Marine, Ghost Stim timing push" ? Maybe revamp that 10 minutes push...
Nope. Ghost stim timings are dead since the EMP nerf and they will not come back since they exploited the fact Protoss' defence relied on 4-6 Sentries at this time (with the old radius of EMP being wide enough to remove every bit of shield and energy if the Protoss army was caught in a ball). The MSC is out of reach and you would sacrifice so much to have those 2 Ghosts that Protoss would have no troubles defending your push with PO + his units, even if his Sentries are nullified.
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TvZ, I play mech, what if the zerg stays on 2 base for long and goes like, 2 base muta, delayed third, and then mass roaches. I have a hard time securing a third, but I need the gas for mech. Should I just stay 2 base for longer until I have 4 thors or so, or try to take the third very eary and try to get turrets up there before mutas arrive? The problem is because of the lack of gas I cant afford many thors and tanks, so his roach followup push always kills me. Thanks!
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If you think he's going 2 base muta, don't get double armoury or if you've already started, don't start both upgrades. You want to get 2 fac thor reactor starport viking rolling immediately. Your second and third fac timings are critical, and your ebay. You want to have a few turrets set up for the initial hit. Once the first batch of mutas gets thrown back, add tanks and get a third. You should only need 2-3 thors for this, he can't make all that many mutas and if he does for some retarded reason you can make more and pull/autorepair scvs on them. Whats important is that you delay upgrades until you are safe.
Normally 2 base mutas hits at around 10 minutes. They can be as early as 8:50 depending on how fast the zerg starts his lair (incidentally I quite like reaper hellion banshee openers for mech since you'll get a very good idea of what he's going and it's much less likely he'll do something bullshit.)
As long as you can get 3 bases set up without taking any damage you will be fine going into midgame, possibly ahead if he overcommitted/fails at making drones.
You're going to have to do a lot of this pretty much in the dark so it comes down to your game sense and some guts.
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Ok thanks, I always open 2 fact blueflame so I dont have the starport up which is pretty bad vs fast mutas I guess :/
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On February 07 2014 07:55 Aquila- wrote:
Ok thanks, I always open 2 fact blueflame so I dont have the starport up which is pretty bad vs fast mutas I guess :/
2 fact BFH is not a very good staple opening. It's more solid than in WoL, but Hellions/Banshees is still superior.
On top of what iaguz already said, consider getting Mines on the edges of your base to defend 2-bases mutas. Mutalisks typically fly over them and the resulting explosion, with Zerg backing his mutas like Mines are going to immediately shoot again, is quite hilarious.
Against really quick 2-bases mutas (those that get Lair obscenely fast, say before 6', skipping creep spread and upgrades; recognizable with the Spine in front of his natural), you can also consider not getting a third and all-inning them in return instead with Hellbats/Thors/Banshees. The idea is that Zerg still needs to drone his third before going mass Roaches (otherwise his production is too weak), and you hit by the time he has not enough army so you can overrun him before he can produce enough Roaches.
Check the following VODs:
Mvp vs Curious, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore (first series)
Mvp vs Curious, Frost, IEM Singapore (second series, case of 2-bases mech all-in vs 2-bases mutas)
Flash vs Solar, Frost, SPL (3-bases mutas, but defends Roach push after mutas)
Old, but if you want to add a Starport to your 2 fact BFH build for more flexibility, consider watching old WoL Mvp VODs such as his GSL finals vs Life of his game vs Vortix on Daybreak (just for the model of the build).
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Oh yeah, mines are fucken awesome.
If anyone gets into the situation that innovation got vs Soulkey, where there's a huge mutaflock bouncing between all the bases, consider getting 6 widow mines, placing them in amongst a mineral line and then make sure there's enough turrets and scvs that the zerg can't see the outlines. Then wait.
It's only ever going to work once in a game but once is usually enough.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37123 Posts
2 rax reaper opening in TvT is kicking my ass. How do I defend against this?
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Thanks for the responses. I know Mvps build 2 fact blueflame and starport, but it feels like the starport delays the third cc too much. Usually do a gasless expand into double gas, because this way I can get out 4 marines and a bunker in case of a 7 minute roach rush, also to kill the overlord that creeps my third later. I do the 2 fact build because I can get a tank if I see he is allin. So hellion banshee is better? Should I make vikings vs mutas instead banshees? Most terrans that I see open reaper into 3 cc but I dont feel safe with that, I dont have a bunker and nothing that can kill a creeping overlord at my third.
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What kind of 2 rax reaper, 12/14 or 8/8/8?
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would someone care to elaborate on the place of scv pulls in tvp?
what specific situations in the matchup call for me to perform this strategy?
does it only work as a reaction to someone whos being too greedy like fast 3 base?
what do i need to have in place in order to be successful?
it seems like a really popular strategy at the pro level yet i haven't seen much discussion, please post the link for me if im wrong.
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On February 07 2014 10:10 Seeker wrote:
2 rax reaper opening in TvT is kicking my ass. How do I defend against this?
2rax reaper openings usually snowball. You can't lose any army units early on, otherwise you don't have a critical mass to defend vs more reapers. Assuming you have ID'd that it is 2 rax reapers, you should be pulling 3-4 scvs so that they can absorb the damage and rush hellions out.
That's about as specific as I can get though beceause you didn't specify what kind of opening you use
On February 07 2014 11:40 Tzela wrote:
would someone care to elaborate on the place of scv pulls in tvp?
what specific situations in the matchup call for me to perform this strategy?
does it only work as a reaction to someone whos being too greedy like fast 3 base?
what do i need to have in place in order to be successful?
it seems like a really popular strategy at the pro level yet i haven't seen much discussion, please post the link for me if im wrong.
Scv pulls in tvp allow you to add about 1,000 minerals worth of tankiness into your army in an instant. Specific situations would be if your 1030 timing push did significant damage or you inflicted damage earlier on and the protoss is behind and cant afford to keep making units and econ at the same time.
In order to be successful, you need 5 rax and some kind nof counter to the protoss splash damage units (ghosts or vikings), thats pretty much it. And when you pull your scvs, just pull them from the natural.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37123 Posts
On February 07 2014 11:15 ROOTiaguz wrote:
What kind of 2 rax reaper, 12/14 or 8/8/8?
12/14.
What's 8/8/8? I think this is the first I'm hearing of this.
On February 07 2014 11:50 Smurfett3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 10:10 Seeker wrote:
2 rax reaper opening in TvT is kicking my ass. How do I defend against this? 2rax reaper openings usually snowball. You can't lose any army units early on, otherwise you don't have a critical mass to defend vs more reapers. Assuming you have ID'd that it is 2 rax reapers, you should be pulling 3-4 scvs so that they can absorb the damage and rush hellions out. That's about as specific as I can get though beceause you didn't specify what kind of opening you use
My bad, I should have mentioned it earlier. I tend to open with an early 1/1/1 on 1 base for most of my TvTs. Reactor marines, siege tanks, and cloaked banshees into an expansion.
I always go 12 gas, first reaper as soon as I have 50 gas, save up 100 for fac, grab a second gas, next 50 goes into a second reaper (sometimes a third and fourth if necessary for defensive purposes), and then into starport from there.
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8/8/8 is when they proxy 2 raxes very close to your base, both on 8 supply (the 2nd 8 is for the gas timing). I think it's a bad build because it auto loses to 12 gas unless you have Maru micro skills.
Are you opening 12 gas 13 rax or 12 rax 12 gas? It's really hard to stop if you open 12 rax 12 gas, but not impossible. I think you can make reactor on the rax right and have marines out before reapers 2 and 3 show up, thought you might have to throw a few scvs at them as well. Just survive until you have hellions then you can secure your natural and play a normal game. Up til then just keep everything in your main and keep things tight
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On February 07 2014 16:03 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 11:15 ROOTiaguz wrote:
What kind of 2 rax reaper, 12/14 or 8/8/8? 12/14. What's 8/8/8? I think this is the first I'm hearing of this. Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 11:50 Smurfett3 wrote:On February 07 2014 10:10 Seeker wrote:
2 rax reaper opening in TvT is kicking my ass. How do I defend against this? 2rax reaper openings usually snowball. You can't lose any army units early on, otherwise you don't have a critical mass to defend vs more reapers. Assuming you have ID'd that it is 2 rax reapers, you should be pulling 3-4 scvs so that they can absorb the damage and rush hellions out. That's about as specific as I can get though beceause you didn't specify what kind of opening you use My bad, I should have mentioned it earlier. I tend to open with an early 1/1/1 on 1 base for most of my TvTs. Reactor marines, siege tanks, and cloaked banshees into an expansion. I always go 12 gas, first reaper as soon as I have 50 gas, save up 100 for fac, grab a second gas, next 50 goes into a second reaper (sometimes a third and fourth if necessary for defensive purposes), and then into starport from there.
I'm not 100% sure about this reaction, I haven't studied it too closely but I believe if you open 12 gas reaper FE and you scout the 2rax, you have to add a 2nd rax and start pumping reapers out or else you are just going to straight out die when he has 3 reapers and you only have 2
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I've Defended 12/14 quite easily with 12 Rax / 15 Gas into 1/1/1 Banshee counter into 3 CC 3 Fact Double Armory > 5 Fact 2 Starport. I rarely get behind in TvT with this build because of how effective it truly is atleast from my experience
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Long time since i played and looking into a macro oriented build for all 3 matchups ..
Got me wondering are these vallid or way outdated or are there better builds atm?
TvP Reaper expansion (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-demuslims-reaper-fe/)
TvZ Reactor Helion (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvz/tvz-innovations-reactor-hellion-3cc/)
TvT Anti banshee expand (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvt/tvt-marus-anti-banshee-expand/)
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On February 08 2014 17:36 Juice! wrote:
Long time since i played and looking into a macro oriented build for all 3 matchups ..
Got me wondering are these vallid or way outdated or are there better builds atm?
TvP Reaper expansion (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-demuslims-reaper-fe/)
TvZ Reactor Helion (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvz/tvz-innovations-reactor-hellion-3cc/)
TvT Anti banshee expand (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvt/tvt-marus-anti-banshee-expand/)
TvP: I think you die to 2-base blink all-in? Possible solution will be to delay starport and have factory production if you scout twilight + many stalkers. As the build says, don't lose your damn reaper. Nice thing about it is you are v strong vs. oracle opening. If you can't figure out the 2-base blink defense though, you're not going to have a very fun time on ladder.
TvZ: Still standard. Consider going into cloak banshee with it; WM nerf makes winning vs. roach openings much more difficult; very early roaches you can use the TL you were going to use for banshees for tanks instead, later roaches you'll have the cloak banshees to pop em as they go down the map.
TvT: Seems fine/good.
Edited TvP for clarity.
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More questions about the 12/14 2 rax reaper build.
I've heard that gas first elevator hellion build is the counter for this build, correct? If yes, how does one execute the elevator correctly since most likely there will be reapers poking for weakness in my main continuously.
The reaper build is annoying to play against since it's so strong in the early game and basically forces you to play catch-up passively. Since the opponent gets early stim it's hard to do any strong harass. Any advice on how to proceed from taking a few scv losses against this build?
A question about stim micro against zerglings: is it correct while dropping to back into a corner and NOT stim the outer marines, so they can take more hits from the lings (thus dying slower) while acting as a wall for the rest of the marines OR do I just stim them all to kill the lings asap?
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After watching forGG at the recent ASUS ROG tournament play TvP I have changed mine to be a little bit more like his (with success so far, up 5% win rate in plat) and I was wondering (for reference I am talking about very aggressive playstyle with widow mine drops and aggressive hellbats and just general aggressive playstyle, see: http://sc2links.com/tournament.php?tournament=ASUS ROG Winter 2014 )
I was wondering a few things, when doing something like a widow mines drop i have seen forgg do it multiple ways and I was wondering say I have 2 mines in a medivac where should i be dropping them? Like both in the main mineral line ( usually when I try this way the probes run away and i kill none, only lose mining time) or 1 in natural 1 in main or should i drop 1 at the ramp and 1 in the main mineral line? Like which situations would i do these different variations of drops?
Also when do I bring my marines? Is it just when i dont need them at home? (I could only assume...)
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EPT
