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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Hi would you mind posting a replay or two? I am just starting to use this exact opener and I really like it, but could use some help with exactly how to continue after the raven pops. Yea when i get home tonight I'll Post it or send it to ya  I had one yesterday Vs a Mid Masters that shows how strong it really is | ||
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kurobk
Canada4 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:45 kurobk wrote: Hey guys! I am new to TL. I am currently a top gold terran and want some help with my T v P. I can seem to beat chargelot archon templar mix. I try harrassing with medivac plays in the early game where we just set out the first natural base. Simple bio and ghost did not work very well for me so I took the advice from somewhere else and added blue flame hellbats, bio, ghosts 6~7 of them, and medivacs. I successfully emped all the templars and some of the archons but the unaffected archons were overwhelming my entire army. As he did the two base push which puts him at an advantage over upgrade by a lot. Instead of trying to catch up the chronoed upgrade, i tried getting more units out although i did have the upgrade on the way. Whatever I do, Protoss seems overwhelmingly powerful for me. Help me out! Post the replay. You can uplaod it on drop.sc | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
What I want to ask is whether I reacted the right way in the early game. I'm a bit slow getting my guys on gas thanks to his probe but then I scout with my reaper a stargate and 2 GW's going down. So I immediately build 3 bunkers at front and one in mineral line (as no eBay yet). The protoss knows that I saw this then tech switches into fast HT's and got a good lead in upgrades because I built stuff to defend vs oracles and a oracle/voidray with gateway units bust. After I see he has started his expo I relax a bit on the defensive front but am waaaaaaaaay behind and my macro is way off because I've just build all these unnecessary bunkers, etc. I feel as though I couldn't risk not building those structures because if he HAD gone for a bust or some oracles I would've been in deep trouble without them. What's a T to do... Replay: http://drop.sc/373754 cheers dudes <3 | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Hi guys, now I know I totally fucked up the end of this game. I thought I could catch him weak taking his third and thought his tech may be a bit delayed because of what I scouted early in the game. What I want to ask is whether I reacted the right way in the early game. I'm a bit slow getting my guys on gas thanks to his probe but then I scout with my reaper a stargate and 2 GW's going down. So I immediately build 3 bunkers at front and one in mineral line (as no eBay yet). The protoss knows that I saw this then tech switches into fast HT's and got a good lead in upgrades because I built stuff to defend vs oracles and a oracle/voidray with gateway units bust. After I see he has started his expo I relax a bit on the defensive front but am waaaaaaaaay behind and my macro is way off because I've just build all these unnecessary bunkers, etc. I feel as though I couldn't risk not building those structures because if he HAD gone for a bust or some oracles I would've been in deep trouble without them. What's a T to do... Replay: http://drop.sc/373754 cheers dudes <3 Your Opener Needs a LOT a LOT of help..... #1 your SCV scout is WAY to early.... use your SCV that is building your Rax to scout after the rax is done... honestly your Scout should leave your Base EARLIEST at the 2:30 mark and latest 3:00 on close 2 player maps.... #2 Put your CC on the Low ground There is no reason to put it on the high ground especially if you aren't going CC first w/o a block ... which is the ONLY reason to put it on the highground which is mostly used to block 2 gate proxy.... YOu also EXTREMELY OVER REACTED EXTREMELY OVER REACTED to the build he did.... you saw 3 gate Stargate then he cancelled and went for Twilight.... you put down 3 bunkers and sacrificed production IE rax... in that situation he can't hit you that fast.... you have to get your 3 Rax in that situation because you are now playing defensive get your a SD going then you can put up your Bunkers at which point you will have your production up to fight his attack as well as bunkers..... You also didn't stage your midgame.... by 10:30 seconds you should have your 3rd CC and 5 Rax atleast Started.... and be powering on with Upgrades... which also consequently you do have a fast Ghost acad you don't have the production facilities to accomodate enough Marauders / Marines along with Ghosts to have a viable Composition to even fight in mid game..... Your Engage was really bad at the third and because your army was so small and your engagement was bad IE Clumped up and A move... as a Terran you have to baby sit your army and Spread when you see templars and a prespread before you engage is actually suggested..... and you didn't have the Prodcution to ramp up to match his production that was in your main with the Warp prism you then lost... Which your 3rd set of production faciliites should be going up around 13 mins into the game.... which is 1 min later after your third lands if you make your 3rd cc at the right time.... which is also the time you should have atleast 2-1 started if not 20% done or 2-2 Edit: ALSO Do not put your first supply depot at the ramp as you get up in Leagues it turns into a donation that can be ezily picked off and be a source of problems for you like Bait for the MSC and then BAM your mairines are Timewarped and then Oracle runs into your Main and Owns your mineral line before you can go back and then he gets away scott clean with everything.... Also it helps your mineral income if you make the SD close ot your mineral line | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Hi would you mind posting a replay or two? I am just starting to use this exact opener and I really like it, but could use some help with exactly how to continue after the raven pops. http://drop.sc/373757 Here is the Drop SC for the 3 CC Mech 12 Rax / 15 Gas Build its against Cloakshee opener... which he follows it up with a 3 Tank PUsh lol interesting game | ||
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Fhiz
361 Posts
Also in TvT is the ForGG mech style (like the thread that was up on TL a while back) still the way to go, with lots of early hellions + vikings + early third and the whole spiel ? edit; still the way to go FOR MECH | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
On February 12 2014 11:38 Fhiz wrote: Hey I am using the TvZ build day9 showed of taeja's updated 4M (but he is using it less now and focusing on more hellions and more banshees i find) either way it is basically 6 hellion 1 banshee (non cloaked) opener into 3+ base macro 4M with a 1 reaper and a 3rd not super early at around 8-9min. BASICALLY i was wondering when should i be taking my 2/3/4 gas? After starport before? I find i cant start my upgrades until well after my ebays are done and I feel like i just dont have the gas i need thanks!~ Also in TvT is the ForGG mech style (like the thread that was up on TL a while back) still the way to go, with lots of early hellions + vikings + early third and the whole spiel ? edit; still the way to go FOR MECH I don't really like the forgg mech opener anymore as it feels really hard to hold both banshees and tank pushes... variations like getting a second gas for a raven and/or at least one tank before mass hellions feel much more stable. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Hey I am using the TvZ build day9 showed of taeja's updated 4M (but he is using it less now and focusing on more hellions and more banshees i find) either way it is basically 6 hellion 1 banshee (non cloaked) opener into 3+ base macro 4M with a 1 reaper and a 3rd not super early at around 8-9min. BASICALLY i was wondering when should i be taking my 2/3/4 gas? After starport before? I find i cant start my upgrades until well after my ebays are done and I feel like i just dont have the gas i need thanks!~ Honestly, I would model my TvZ after ForGG's Recent TvZ his build is INSANELY INSANELY good I'm surprised noone has made a guide about it... it seriously is different in teh best way possible to take advantage of so many things of your Mid game, In Fact his build in ROG against Z went like 11-1 or something stupid like that his 1 loss was because it was the 1 game he opened CC first and Jaedong 10 P of which he tried to recover but couldn't lol Otherwise he was so dominant against zerg it looked borderline OP hahahaha Ofcourse that is mostly because of his Uber Good Mechanics but his TvZ build is Scary good regardless..... | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
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0excalibur
Taiwan11 Posts
Thanks | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
What build are you talking about? I just checked 2 of the macro games vs Jaedong and he's just playing the standard reaper hellion into bio... Also why random caps >.< Thats because you don't realize what BO he is going for..... Its extremely subtle and when i Watched it the first time I didn't realize it but then I paid really close attention to the production tab ...... 12 mins in MOST Pro Terrans favor Marines and Rax Production.... ForGG forgoes the fast 8 Rax even though he goes for an EXTREMLY fast 3rd and actually puts it into tech and goes for 5 Rax 2 Factory and Gets Drilling Claws started Early then takes his 8 Rax at about 13 mins..... once he takes his 4th then he goes Thor / Hellbat.... so he has such a Smooth Powerful transition first Favors Multi prong attacks using widow mines then Powers up for a Mega death push at the end it seriously is a beautiful thing to watch...... | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Can someone show me build order reaper fe into 6 hellion cloak banshee into bio? And then another with non cloak? Any pro replays with full bio transition? I couldn't find one, I watches bomber do it so I have a general idea. Sadly his stream didn't save on his past broadcasts Thanks Quantic Yume has a really good Video / Guide on how to play Hellion Banshee aggressively into bio transition and talks about the different transition options you have. Its extremely informative and suprisingly helpful.... its on his archived Twitch videos..... | ||
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Rambolav
Norway42 Posts
I open with the opener described in the OP, 12 rax 15 gas -> CC. I try to go marine tank but never really get there. I am getting better at defending banshees, have stopped dying to them but they are enough for the opponent to lock down his 2 bases with tanks and hellions etc. I might win if the opponent does a bad bio mech-build or is just plain bad. Obviously I'm not playing so great myself. My question is, does anyone know a really safe and strong way to go marine tank? Also if there is a really good stim timing to hit I'm all ears. I'd just love to defend well and end an opponent at about 11-15 minutes. Or just get a strong map-presence and deny his bases and overwhelm him with tanks. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
I'm being rekt in TvT these days. There's either a ridicidonkey cheese happening or mech being locked down so fast I can't really do anything. I open with the opener described in the OP, 12 rax 15 gas -> CC. I try to go marine tank but never really get there. I am getting better at defending banshees, have stopped dying to them but they are enough for the opponent to lock down his 2 bases with tanks and hellions etc. I might win if the opponent does a bad bio mech-build or is just plain bad. Obviously I'm not playing so great myself. My question is, does anyone know a really safe and strong way to go marine tank? Also if there is a really good stim timing to hit I'm all ears. I'd just love to defend well and end an opponent at about 11-15 minutes. Or just get a strong map-presence and deny his bases and overwhelm him with tanks. I used to play exactly as you are describing.... but coming to realization that it doesn't work as well as it used to because of the buff to tanks... I've adjusted my play a lot. Marine Tank is still good but Mech with the combined upgrades and tank buff its just slowly becoming the stronger way to play.... Mech vs Marine Tank was always favored to mech anyway but it used to go like this Mech > Marine Tank > Bio > Mech It now goes Mech > Marine tank > Bio and stops there hahaha If you are going to go Marine tank I would even suggest going 2 Rax Reaper as it gives you an advantage with good micro against Banshee openers gives you an opportunity to do damage to Gas first openers also you can almost end the game if they cut marines.... Then do a timing attack when you get meds in the air and Poach as many tanks as you can .... if you let your opponent get to the critical mass of tanks the game ends for you unless you can stall for a transition to Air which your opponent will have a leg up on that because his upgrades are combined..... Edit: I also have a Couple reps of Playing 2 Rax reaper against Mech Styles and Banshee openers into Bio but again It doesn't no where near the effectiveness of Mech..... and also going 12 rax 15 gas into Bio actually is counter intuitive while it can be done and it is a good defensive build Bio HAS to be more aggressive so once you defend yoru opponents early aggression you would have to counter with Raven 3 Tank Push / viking push which honestly puts your stim behind. Alteast thats my findings maybe DWF has better info... LOL | ||
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Rambolav
Norway42 Posts
On February 13 2014 01:30 Pirfiktshon wrote: I used to play exactly as you are describing.... but coming to realization that it doesn't work as well as it used to because of the buff to tanks... I've adjusted my play a lot. Marine Tank is still good but Mech with the combined upgrades and tank buff its just slowly becoming the stronger way to play.... Mech vs Marine Tank was always favored to mech anyway but it used to go like this Mech > Marine Tank > Bio > Mech It now goes Mech > Marine tank > Bio and stops there hahaha If you are going to go Marine tank I would even suggest going 2 Rax Reaper as it gives you an advantage with good micro against Banshee openers gives you an opportunity to do damage to Gas first openers also you can almost end the game if they cut marines.... Then do a timing attack when you get meds in the air and Poach as many tanks as you can .... if you let your opponent get to the critical mass of tanks the game ends for you unless you can stall for a transition to Air which your opponent will have a leg up on that because his upgrades are combined..... Edit: I also have a Couple reps of Playing 2 Rax reaper against Mech Styles and Banshee openers into Bio but again It doesn't no where near the effectiveness of Mech..... and also going 12 rax 15 gas into Bio actually is counter intuitive while it can be done and it is a good defensive build Bio HAS to be more aggressive so once you defend yoru opponents early aggression you would have to counter with Raven 3 Tank Push / viking push which honestly puts your stim behind. Alteast thats my findings maybe DWF has better info... LOL Thanks... yeah we're pretty much on the same wavelength. I just so much want to have bio count and be rewarded for an aggressive non-mech approach early game. I have considered 2 rax reapers and I guess I will start playing it again. The problem is that it's such a fragile build. On smaller maps it's a fairly viable opener, but on bigger maps such as Frost LE I fear it won't work too well... I'm thinking 14 cc on Frost LE? I dunno. I just refuse to go mech. I just hate the concept of not taking any chances and hiding behind turrets and a massive damage army... It just reminds me of Swarm Hosts+static D and Protoss in general. I hate the concept of "oh I managed to build this, so f*** you". It's a reason I like Terran the most, I think Terran bio is the most exciting style to watch and to play. Marine tank is ok, because there is actually some finesse there. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
I play an defensive stance up to 8:30-9:30 depending on opponents opener, then my mech turns into non stop aggression which you can play quite easily just you have to do a 3:2 Ratio of Fact to starports because in any match up for Terran Starport = Aggression - Map / Vision control..... which in TvT especially there is truly no way to be aggressive with strong pushes w/o starport and vision to be able to outrange your opponent with tanks consistently otherwise (obviously there is scan but you can't count on scan that early as you want more mules than scan that early)... | ||
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Fhiz
361 Posts
edit;; basically what can i get away with if my opponent does something like gas first banshee, reactored hellions (15 gas) or 2 rax reaper/ reaper FE | ||
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kurobk
Canada4 Posts
http://drop.sc/373836 I guess I was a bit greedy taking both bases. But Last time, I kept the second cc in my base to protect from one base instead of having my army scattered. However, this lead to protoss doing damage + catching up in economy. This build is so hard to hold! help! | ||
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ArcDawn
United States78 Posts
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