EPThttp://ggtracker.com/matches/4677261
Don't talk about mid and end game... I know what I did wrong. Happens every time. Storms.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 242
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geokilla
Canada8254 Posts
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4677261 Don't talk about mid and end game... I know what I did wrong. Happens every time. Storms. | ||
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Fhiz
361 Posts
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On January 31 2014 11:14 geokilla wrote: Polar Night, I usually CC first into 2 Rax + Bunker then double gas because it's a big map with 4 spawn locations. I do my scouting with a SCV. In this particular game, it was cross spawn and I scouted Stargate meaning Oracles. I continuously pump Marines out and try to have them in my mineral line in order to protect against Oracles. But the Oracles take them down easy peasy, lose like 10 SCVs and I proceed to rage as the Protoss also pokes into the front with MSC, Zealot, and Stalker. Having a limited amount of army and resources, there's no way I could have handled this any better. Right? http://ggtracker.com/matches/4677261 Don't talk about mid and end game... I know what I did wrong. Happens every time. Storms. I didn't look at your replay specifically, but you should change your mindset of mid to late game. You will always have a chance to win if you can max out and win a maxed food fight (good emp, catch colsi out of position, etc) On January 31 2014 01:33 Fhiz wrote: I have 2 questions about bombers TvT displays today (at sao paulo, http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/499366852?t=1h56m54s ) In the game on heavy rain would the push that bomber did with the 2 tanks and a handful of marines, viable against all builds or do you have to do damage to the marine count with the banshees? Or was it reactionary to Jjakji's 2 rax reaper? In the second game, kind of a similar question is playing with just an insane amount of marines and medivacs at all possible in any other fashion than a giant map and cc first vs cc first? no. What you are referring to I am assuming is the bomber vs T game where bomber made nothing but marines and won the game on cross positions alterzim. That was a well thought out simplistic strategy of abusing the size and terrain of the map with marines. Cannot work on smaller maps | ||
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On January 31 2014 11:14 geokilla wrote: Polar Night, I usually CC first into 2 Rax + Bunker then double gas because it's a big map with 4 spawn locations. I do my scouting with a SCV. In this particular game, it was cross spawn and I scouted Stargate meaning Oracles. I continuously pump Marines out and try to have them in my mineral line in order to protect against Oracles. But the Oracles take them down easy peasy, lose like 10 SCVs and I proceed to rage as the Protoss also pokes into the front with MSC, Zealot, and Stalker. Having a limited amount of army and resources, there's no way I could have handled this any better. Right? http://ggtracker.com/matches/4677261 Don't talk about mid and end game... I know what I did wrong. Happens every time. Storms. You spread yourself too thin in that situation. Make a habit to wall in the choke in your natural asap after your bunker to prevent runbys with stalker + MsC. When you know that oracles are coming leave 1 marine in the bunker and pull a few scvs to repair it. The rest of your marines should be in your mineral line. Remember that it takes 6 marines to kill 1 oracle so you should have at least 6 marines in at least 1 mineral line, it's worthless to spread like 4-2 or 3-3. You knew that oracles will harass you the coming 2-3 minutes so you should start your ebay asap you see stargate and build a turret in each mineral line. This is really good to prevent oracle harassment when you move out. Hope it helps. GL in the future! | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
I do standard 12/12 reaper expand into 1-1-1 Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/373037 (it is only a 9 min game so please watch it to get exact idea on what exactly is my opponent doing) | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
On February 03 2014 02:31 Doc Brawler wrote: What is the best" Hard Counter" to cloak banshee. Specifically if you scout on 12 is there any reactive build that works well against cloak banshee? Well, its getting up a raven and a viking, or a turret and a viking in your mineral line. This will render his harass completely ineffective. If you can fend off Banshee harass on 2 bases you are in an extremely good spot. Going for 13 rax 15 gas seems to be one of the easiest ways to deal with this, your viking will pop before his banshee hits your base and you can have turrets out. If you are looking for 1 base all ins, i dont think theres anything to guarantee you a win. SCV Marine pulls can work i guess, but its all a little hit and miss. | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
On February 02 2014 23:09 Qwerty85 wrote: I need help defending proxy thor rush in TvT. I encountered it 2-3 times in last couple of days and I always lose to it and have no idea how to react at all to it. I do standard 12/12 reaper expand into 1-1-1 Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/373037 (it is only a 9 min game so please watch it to get exact idea on what exactly is my opponent doing) Things that are really good against thors: marauders: if you have enough time to get them its auto win. can't stress enough, just make marauders. its not terribly difficult to scout if you suspect proyxy play just send out first two marines or an scv to look for factory Widow mines: if you already have a WM or a factory and don't know what to make from it WM are decent choice. Just make sure and target fire the thor. two shots will bring it down to 1/3 health ish i believe 4 kill it.. Hellions: taget repairing svc marines: target repairing scvs tanks: not the right choice scvs: go for the surround using mineral walk. obviously you can only pull so many... gauge it based on how many you opponent brings to repair. Banshee: might be build oder loss, not sure though, not useless but i think its late. In general if its a really early thor, the biggest problem is the repair, so ALWAYS target the scvs FIRST. you will not be able to dps it down faster than it kills you units. once there is no repair, and scv surround is really easy to perform and helps alot ALso in general, its usually better to stall and get more units.. for example, if you see it lumbering up your ramp and you know you don't have enough units, just sacrifice any depots and remake them immediately while you stall for time. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On February 03 2014 02:42 Doc Brawler wrote: Things that are really good against thors: marauders: if you have enough time to get them its auto win. can't stress enough, just make marauders. its not terribly difficult to scout if you suspect proyxy play just send out first two marines or an scv to look for factory Widow mines: if you already have a WM or a factory and don't know what to make from it WM are decent choice. Just make sure and target fire the thor. two shots will bring it down to 1/3 health ish i believe 4 kill it.. Hellions: taget repairing svc marines: target repairing scvs tanks: not the right choice scvs: go for the surround using mineral walk. obviously you can only pull so many... gauge it based on how many you opponent brings to repair. Banshee: might be build oder loss, not sure though, not useless but i think its late. In general if its a really early thor, the biggest problem is the repair, so ALWAYS target the scvs FIRST. you will not be able to dps it down faster than it kills you units. once there is no repair, and scv surround is really easy to perform and helps alot ALso in general, its usually better to stall and get more units.. for example, if you see it lumbering up your ramp and you know you don't have enough units, just sacrifice any depots and remake them immediately while you stall for time. Hmm.. I was asking for a way to hold with specific way I play. I always go mech in TvT so marauders are not an option. At least watch a replay and then we can discuss what could work and what wouldn't. He also had marines along with repairing SCVs and even mines of his own. So I am looking for an answer for a very specific situation. In WoL when I played bio, this was not a problem but it is with reaper expands into 1-1-1. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On February 03 2014 03:05 Qwerty85 wrote: Hmm.. I was asking for a way to hold with specific way I play. I always go mech in TvT so marauders are not an option. At least watch a replay and then we can discuss what could work and what wouldn't. He also had marines along with repairing SCVs and even mines of his own. So I am looking for an answer for a very specific situation. In WoL when I played bio, this was not a problem but it is with reaper expands into 1-1-1. Even if you plan to go mech, there is no reason why you can't drop a tech lab on your barracks and make marauders instead of marines until you hold the push. Sure, you can't use them later on, but he is doing an allin so you do whatever it takes to defend. More specifically, your build is not being executed correctly. You have to consistently produce units against a 1 base play from all 3 production structures. A large amount of time goes by where you don't produce any units at all, so at 7:40 you have 3 marines, a viking, and a widow mine, when you could have 10 marines, a tank, and 2 vikings, with 2 more marines, a tank, and a viking in production, which combined with a bunker would hold. Target marines in the bunker on the repairing scvs, and keep your tanks unsieged and target the thor down. Land the vikings and first target repairing workers, then the thor. If you look at the amount of money you are floating at 7:40, all of that could have been units. Finally, you could have had even MORE defenses if you hadn't built turrets all over the place even after scouting that it was proxy thor. 300 minerals wasted. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On February 03 2014 03:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Even if you plan to go mech, there is no reason why you can't drop a tech lab on your barracks and make marauders instead of marines until you hold the push. Sure, you can't use them later on, but he is doing an allin so you do whatever it takes to defend. More specifically, your build is not being executed correctly. You have to consistently produce units against a 1 base play from all 3 production structures. A large amount of time goes by where you don't produce any units at all, so at 7:40 you have 3 marines, a viking, and a widow mine, when you could have 10 marines, a tank, and 2 vikings, with 2 more marines, a tank, and a viking in production, which combined with a bunker would hold. Target marines in the bunker on the repairing scvs, and keep your tanks unsieged and target the thor down. Land the vikings and first target repairing workers, then the thor. If you look at the amount of money you are floating at 7:40, all of that could have been units. Finally, you could have had even MORE defenses if you hadn't built turrets all over the place even after scouting that it was proxy thor. 300 minerals wasted. That is some good advice. I usually don't float resources at that point, I was just caught off guard by the thor. Also, turrets were made before I saw his tech lab with my reaper at the watchtower and since he was mining from 2 gas I auto assumed banshee which is way more common than proxy thors. Thanks for advice anyway, I will try to make more marines early on, it is true that I tend to skip them at first. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On February 03 2014 02:31 Doc Brawler wrote: What is the best" Hard Counter" to cloak banshee. Specifically if you scout on 12 is there any reactive build that works well against cloak banshee? Not really, that's why that opening is so strong and so common. There are some build orders or tricks that are hard for gas first cloak banshee openers to deal with. 12 gas marine hellion medivac elevator is one. Another is, when doing the 12 rax 15 gas reactor expand you can test his front with 6 marines and 2 or 4 hellions and just barely have enough for ebay, turret and viking(s) and maybe that'll get some damage through. You can try and have some marines or a mine positioned in such a way as to surprise the banshee before it gets to your base but generally speaking you're gonna struggle to stop the banshee at least breaking even. There's no solid reliable way to do an expansion build and completely block the banshees from doing any damage, you pretty much have to do something cute and hope it works out. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On February 03 2014 03:05 Qwerty85 wrote: Hmm.. I was asking for a way to hold with specific way I play. I always go mech in TvT so marauders are not an option. At least watch a replay and then we can discuss what could work and what wouldn't. He also had marines along with repairing SCVs and even mines of his own. So I am looking for an answer for a very specific situation. In WoL when I played bio, this was not a problem but it is with reaper expands into 1-1-1. I always go mech too. I dont open reaper but go 1-2 marines into hellions raven viking banshee. Basically you need to scout it as with all allins; once I find out, what I do is put down a bunker with marines in it and build tanks asap (basically put rax on the reactor factory was at and put the factory on tlab that starport was at Ie if im midway raven/banshee I just cancel it as raven is useless pretty much against that). If you can afford it build a viking and land it but focus on marines and tank.Dont be afraid to pull scvs either. Usually works well. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On February 03 2014 10:18 Aquila- wrote: What are you guys thoughts on CC first in TvP? I feel like reaper into reactor delays the CC so much and is not particular safe vs proxy oracles or msc rushes. 1 rax gasless adds the next 2 baracks too late to deal with that too. With CC first you get 2 early rax and by the time an oracle comes you can have 5 marines. Isnt it in theory the best and even safest TvP build? Even on maps like Yeonsu and Habitation station, what about going inbase CC first and only lift it after confirming there is no cheese coming? The only problem I can see is a very early chronoboosted Zealot followed by Stalkers and msc, but with pulling scvs and a bunker it should be holdable, and after that he should be way behind with his expo. It's good. It's vulnerable to fast chronoboost gateway shenanigans and if you don't scout them going proxy gate you instantly lose but these things are a bit rare nowadays. The extra minerals and raxes help out a ton with stopping pretty much any attack, as long as you have some idea that it's coming. | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On February 03 2014 10:18 Aquila- wrote: What are you guys thoughts on CC first in TvP? I feel like reaper into reactor delays the CC so much and is not particular safe vs proxy oracles or msc rushes. 1 rax gasless adds the next 2 baracks too late to deal with that too. With CC first you get 2 early rax and by the time an oracle comes you can have 5 marines. Isnt it in theory the best and even safest TvP build? Even on maps like Yeonsu and Habitation station, what about going inbase CC first and only lift it after confirming there is no cheese coming? The only problem I can see is a very early chronoboosted Zealot followed by Stalkers and msc, but with pulling scvs and a bunker it should be holdable, and after that he should be way behind with his expo. i only cc on 4 player maps. If a protoss chronos out a couple units to harass vs cc first (inbase) you will lose scvs and be slightly behind but if it is on the low ground you die instantly | ||
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nightshark
New Zealand24 Posts
On February 02 2014 05:59 Smurfett3 wrote: I didn't look at your replay specifically, but you should change your mindset of mid to late game. You will always have a chance to win if you can max out and win a maxed food fight (good emp, catch colsi out of position, etc) Agree with this, late game TvP is better than mid game TvP imo. In the mid game toss when toss first gets their tech of choice out (collo or ht), if you dont have the counter unit then you are in trouble. By the time you have the counter unit for their first tech choice, they will get their 2nd tech out, so you have to start building a counter for that. But once those 2 tech units and their counters are out, toss loses their advantage and the player with better micro should win from there imo. Too many people just throw their hands up and say "omfg stormmmzzz" and f10 n instead of trying to learn to use ghosts properly. I'm not even good with them but the fact that I even use them makes late game TvP anyone's game. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
On the other hand, even if terran wins that initial fight convincingly they cannot push in and win the game because of warp ins, defensive storms, and photon overcharge. Reinforcements come way too late to be of any help. In short, winning late game TvP is not about microing and winning one fight, it's about winning the war of attrition. If you can hold protoss to 3 bases, you have a fighting chance. But lose any fight throughout the game and you instantly lose because they will either put up their 4th and / or just overrun your base. | ||
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Clarty
Australia162 Posts
On February 03 2014 11:18 Smurfett3 wrote: i only cc on 4 player maps. If a protoss chronos out a couple units to harass vs cc first (inbase) you will lose scvs and be slightly behind but if it is on the low ground you die instantly That's not true, I always CC first and unless toss went 10 gate you can always hold vs chronoboosted gate pressure on low ground. Main problem with CC first I find is that its very difficult to scout, I die to a lot of 1/2 base shenanigans because without a reaper there is no sure way of checking their main. | ||
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