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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On January 26 2014 08:08 iaguz wrote:
I've never really liked thors in tvz. A bunch of thors will beat a bunch of mutas in a straight up fight cost efficiently and it'll force them to magic box which is inefficient but those fights take a long time and LMB vs bio/whatever fights are very short and violent. Most zergs won't let you get too many good thor volleys off, they're still vulnerable to being picked off randomly and if you start playing a bit turtley and build up a good thor count that can be ok but being passive vs zerg is an invitation for muta harass, and that shit hurts. I've seen maru and taeja get them a few times but I've never noticed them doing an awful lot, they tend to win due to other reasons. Idk, a stylistic thing I guess.
Habitation Station tvt is pretty normal for tvt other then reapers seem a bit poor, not much cliff space. Aggressive 1/1/1's are fine. If they go mech, I imagine you could set up a pretty reasonable contain outside their 3 bases (assuming they expand southwards and not to the gold. If they take the gold then the trick is to try and siege up their mineral line from the middle of the map) and just outexpand them. Alternatively you can try and feint aggression to their natural and 3rd and try and abuse the large main for dropping, or going around the most east (or west) part of the map. I don't see mech that often on that map and I don't really play it much either so maybe there's something I've missed.
I always thought of the thors just as zoning units to keep the mutas from coming in and picking off mines with overseers without taking a strong shot. If unlucky 2-3 thors catch a shot against a muta clump and that mine sniping went sour.
That's what I thought at least.
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On January 26 2014 12:24 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 08:08 iaguz wrote:
I've never really liked thors in tvz. A bunch of thors will beat a bunch of mutas in a straight up fight cost efficiently and it'll force them to magic box which is inefficient but those fights take a long time and LMB vs bio/whatever fights are very short and violent. Most zergs won't let you get too many good thor volleys off, they're still vulnerable to being picked off randomly and if you start playing a bit turtley and build up a good thor count that can be ok but being passive vs zerg is an invitation for muta harass, and that shit hurts. I've seen maru and taeja get them a few times but I've never noticed them doing an awful lot, they tend to win due to other reasons. Idk, a stylistic thing I guess.
Habitation Station tvt is pretty normal for tvt other then reapers seem a bit poor, not much cliff space. Aggressive 1/1/1's are fine. If they go mech, I imagine you could set up a pretty reasonable contain outside their 3 bases (assuming they expand southwards and not to the gold. If they take the gold then the trick is to try and siege up their mineral line from the middle of the map) and just outexpand them. Alternatively you can try and feint aggression to their natural and 3rd and try and abuse the large main for dropping, or going around the most east (or west) part of the map. I don't see mech that often on that map and I don't really play it much either so maybe there's something I've missed. I always thought of the thors just as zoning units to keep the mutas from coming in and picking off mines with overseers without taking a strong shot. If unlucky 2-3 thors catch a shot against a muta clump and that mine sniping went sour. That's what I thought at least.
To be fair, you have to play to your league and individual skill capabilities. Things like Thors and Hellbats are nice for lower league TvZ games because the amount of micro required to make them effective is not as high as running straight 4M. If you want a demonstration of the shortcomings of running Thors and Hellbats, go watch Soulkey's 2 games against Maru from the SKT1 v JinAir Proleague match last week. Soulkey just outplays Maru completely, mainly through excellent harassment tactics which Thors are not nearly as capable of dealing with as Marine/Mine.
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What is the go to TvT strategy at the moment?
Ive always played Zerg and Protoss at Master level, but now I wanted to try Terran just because I really dont enjoy ZvZ and PvP too much. Whereas TvT seems pretty interesting to me. Only problem is, I dont have a singe braincel filled with knowledge about that matchup.
Doing T now for 2 weeks, my vZ and vP are def low master but vT is somewhere diamond. Just because of basic macro and having more stuff lol...Usually opening with gas first into cloacked banshee and literlarly see from there. Make some random production buildings :p
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Hellbats in PvT? Hey guys I am not a pro player or so, But I am wondering why doesn´t more Terrans incorporate Hellbats to the PvT matchup?
I mean look at the cons.
They are
-Big and tanky
-Can be healed by medivacs
-Can soak storms
-Really good counter to charegelots(bonus vs light)
-No gas cost(!)
I Have seen many Pro PvTs Where i Start to wonder how the engagements would have gone with hellbats at the front(instead of marines)
I think it would benefit to skip some marines in the late game and replace them with hellbats, Mainly when going up
against the strong Chargelot/archon/templar combo.
Drop some EMP and stomp that army! Well at least in theory!
Let me here your thoughts good Terrans.
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On January 27 2014 23:16 PyroN wrote:
Hellbats in PvT? Hey guys I am not a pro player or so, But I am wondering why doesn´t more Terrans incorporate Hellbats to the PvT matchup?
I mean look at the cons.
They are
-Big and tanky
-Can be healed by medivacs
-Can soak storms
-Really good counter to charegelots(bonus vs light)
-No gas cost(!)
I Have seen many Pro PvTs Where i Start to wonder how the engagements would have gone with hellbats at the front(instead of marines)
I think it would benefit to skip some marines in the late game and replace them with hellbats, Mainly when going up
against the strong Chargelot/archon/templar combo.
Drop some EMP and stomp that army! Well at least in theory!
Let me here your thoughts good Terrans.
Those are the pros.
The cons:
- Immobile
- Relatively expensive
- Require Blueflame = Expensive
- ONLY good vs Chargelot
- Can't be dropped
- Prevent Kiting
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so in TvT if I am playing against a meching player (playing bio + tank), and it gets to kind of a stalemate where I have him lightly contained on 2 (or 3) bases, what would exactly be the right thing to do? I know in the OP it says to transition into air, does this mean rush out battle cruisers and mass viking, after expanding comfortably? Alternatively can I just dry doom dropping into turret lines? and picking him apart like that?
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Viking + either battlecruiser or raven. Pick one of those. The strength of bc's is that you can yamato away thors and smash through, it's also easier to use. The strength of ravens is that whilst it's slower it's more powerful then mass viking/BC (unless the viking/bc player can engage in a huge concave at which point it gets a bit funny).
Trying to mass doom drop is incredibly dangerous and can result in thrown games. Be really careful with that.
When doing an air transition, try to catch him out with viking banshee first. You probably wont' kill him with a surprise banshee switch but you can do a lot of damage before he scrambles thors/turrets. It's worth it.
The strength of most hellbat styles before the blue flame requirement was that you could do obnoxious hellbat drop builds that transitioned smoothly into very powerful compositions. They don't do this now so they basically kinda suck vs protoss. They can be kinda useful sometimes I suppose but not enough.
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Hi guys gold league terran here
I like to play cc first against protoss on Frost. Can anyone point me to a decent replay for cc first tvp standard?
I know the basics like 15 rax, 16 rax and stuff but I'm not sure about the gas and ebay timing.
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Hi guys gold league terran here
I like to play cc first against protoss on Frost. Can anyone point me to a decent replay for cc first tvp standard?
I know the basics like 15 rax, 16 rax and stuff but I'm not sure about the gas and ebay timing.
I think Jazzman88's guide to CC first in TvP from last year is probably a good place to start.It dates back to May but is still completely relevant. Tonnes of details, plus a few VODs + replay links to sift through too.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411141
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On January 28 2014 21:47 JDfz wrote:Show nested quote +Hi guys gold league terran here
I like to play cc first against protoss on Frost. Can anyone point me to a decent replay for cc first tvp standard?
I know the basics like 15 rax, 16 rax and stuff but I'm not sure about the gas and ebay timing. I think Jazzman88's guide to CC first in TvP from last year is probably a good place to start.It dates back to May but is still completely relevant. Tonnes of details, plus a few VODs + replay links to sift through too. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411141
Thank you. I will check it out.
I love cc first against toss. If it wasn't for proxy oracle I would do it every game
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On January 28 2014 22:25 t0n!ght wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 21:47 JDfz wrote:Hi guys gold league terran here
I like to play cc first against protoss on Frost. Can anyone point me to a decent replay for cc first tvp standard?
I know the basics like 15 rax, 16 rax and stuff but I'm not sure about the gas and ebay timing. I think Jazzman88's guide to CC first in TvP from last year is probably a good place to start.It dates back to May but is still completely relevant. Tonnes of details, plus a few VODs + replay links to sift through too. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411141 Thank you. I will check it out. I love cc first against toss. If it wasn't for proxy oracle I would do it every game
CC-first is completely capable of killing proxy Oracle, FYI. It's proxy Voidray all-in that's a bitch.
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And proxy oracle can very easy become Void Rat all-in so ?
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On January 28 2014 23:03 IvorYchef wrote:And proxy oracle can very easy become Void Rat all-in so ?
You're absolutely right, but it's a matter of identifying early - proxy Oracle INTO Voidray all-in is easier to deal with than straight up Voidrays because you have more time to get more SCVs and Turrets. To defend a proxy Voidray all-in, you want 2-3 Bunkers and at least 1 Turret at your front. You will also need 15 SCVs scattered at decent spots to repair, so he can't just Forcefield out the repairs for the win.
Build against proxy should go:
10 Depot
14 CC
15 Rax -> scout on 15 or 16
16 or 17 Rax
*** identify that it's probably proxied something, scout with additional SCV
18 Marine, OC, Bunker
*** continuous Marines
@100% 2nd CC, OC#2
*** find Stargate about now-ish, stick around or come back to see what's being built
@125 minerals, E-bay
@100% E-bay, Turrets (1 per mineral line if Oracles, 1 at the front if Voidrays)
*** use a patrolled SCV to see if he's coming for you, and make sure you have 13-15 SCVs maynarded to the natural, ready to pull
@150 minerals, Rax #3
*** add a Bunker at next 100 minerals, then a third, while maintaining SCV/Marine production
*** add 2 gas geysers and gradually put SCVs in
Practice pulling the SCVs with as fast a reaction time as possible so you can get the repairs down. Focus the Sentries and Voidrays first, because if you can kill all the Voidrays AND the Sentries, it should be impossible for him to break the remaining Bunkers. If he kills the Turret AND 1 or more of the Bunkers, then backs off (whether or not he loses all Voidrays), re-build the Bunkers/Turrets ASAP. He's so all-in it isn't even funny. You can delay the Factory and, by extension, Medivacs until like 12:00 and still have an unstoppable counter if you macro correctly and don't lose all your SCVs.
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When is the best time to add turrets vs. Protoss when you cant get any scouting intel on them? What are DT timings I should be aware off, apart from the earliest DT rushes at 7 minutes?
Edit: Also, if I want to go Mech vs. Protoss, when should I start building additional factories? Should I start them after the Starport (ie around the time TvZ cloak Banshee openers get them) or get more factories asap to be more prepared for early attacks? I guess double Armory should come after the factories/Starport.
Second Starport/Ghost Academy should be added as I see the Protoss' tech path, but what is generally the right time to add the other one? Or should I prioritize Ghost Academy before anything because of Immortals and Archons?
Thanks!
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is anyone available for coaching? stabley 102
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Ok so I'm switching to Terran from being a masters Zerg my main issue is macroing currently I would rate myself as a gold level terran if that I have no builds or any idea of all the matchups including TvZ.
When I was a zerg player I was very aggressive and unrelenting in my playstyle, could someone recommend a aggressive build for each match up and things to look for.
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1) How do I stop 2 rax reaper opening (proxy and not proxy) in tvt?
2) What opening is best for mech in tvt?
3) Is there mech opening which handle easy proxy reapers?
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On January 29 2014 04:55 Vipermagi wrote:
1) How do I stop 2 rax reaper opening (proxy and not proxy) in tvt?
2) What opening is best for mech in tvt?
3) Is there mech opening which handle easy proxy reapers?
1) See OP - in short, continuous marines and pulling some SCVs.
2) See OP - any 1/1/1 opener does well, it's preferance too.
3) See OP - See above.
Sorry, but that rule is here for a reason.
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In TvP masters, how do I react if the Protoss goes 2 base chargelot templer? Against colo first I can do 5 rax scv pull choo choo, but that doesnt work vs storm. Since I cant punish it with an allin, should I get a fast third off 3 baracks? If he goes heavy on armor upgrades, should I get quick armory and start +2 attack quickly? Instantly ghosts? What is the gas spending priority? Should I stop medivacs after 4 or 6 and spend gas on upgrades and ghosts? What is more important? Thanks.
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On January 29 2014 11:30 Aquila- wrote:
In TvP masters, how do I react if the Protoss goes 2 base chargelot templer? Against colo first I can do 5 rax scv pull choo choo, but that doesnt work vs storm. Since I cant punish it with an allin, should I get a fast third off 3 baracks? If he goes heavy on armor upgrades, should I get quick armory and start +2 attack quickly? Instantly ghosts? What is the gas spending priority? Should I stop medivacs after 4 or 6 and spend gas on upgrades and ghosts? What is more important? Thanks.
I've seen and experienced good things with using your multitasking to delay the attack. If he goes 2-base Chargelot/Archon/HT allin, he will be low on Observers as well as AA. Ergo, multiprong drop play will be okay as long as you don't just auto-drop into his units. Aim for sniping Forges to delay his upgrade edge, and try to minimize his Probe/Pylon/Gateway count so that he can't just flood those last 10 Zealots and an Archon when you're barely hanging on.
I would generally advise still going 5-rax before third, and just cutting the fast 2/2 ups that most Terrans go for in exchange for Ghosts. You're not going to stay even with a determined double-Forge Protoss anyways, so why not just get those 3-4 critical EMPs, then try to get the upgrades. Ghosts, a mobile army, and correct positioning is what saves you from a Chargelot/Archon attack, not maxed upgrades.
I remember a particularly good game by Innovation that illustrates this. He was playing some high-level Protoss like sOs or Parting on Neo Planet S (particularly good for this allin, because of the lack of Bunker space and short rush distance). He had only 2 Bunkers, but spread his bio ball well, and also placed several Supply Depots in the path of the Protoss army right in front of the Bunkers. He also got Ghosts really early (i.e. pre-Armory), so he could Snipe/EMP when necessary. The Depots placed at his choke fucked up the Zealot AI, which also caused the Archons to derp out trying to move past, and he got money EMPs to win the game right there when he couldn't be broken.
In theory, Hellbats are sick good in this situation, but I haven't yet been convinced of the correct way to get there.
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EPT
