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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On January 24 2014 23:17 Dunmer wrote: What would you have done against the Carrier counter to Supernova though? Just curious Most probably some mixture of Thor/mine/viking, is my assumption. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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NorthQuab
United States23 Posts
On January 25 2014 05:37 Aquila- wrote: High master, in TvT I do forgg build 15 gas into hellions, how to I defend the marine tank push that comes after cloak banshee or later even the marine marodeur stim tank viking push? do I NEED to get marine tank at start? should I add facotry number 2 and 3 before third cc? thanks. I actually remember a game where ForGG held this off fairly simply against LucifroN, and the way he did it was poking at the marine line as it crossed the map, torching the marines, and then busting through the tanks with all his stuff once they set up at his natural. I dont know where the VoD is but the theory is to pick off marines as they cross the map, so good map vision and awareness and you should be peachy. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On January 25 2014 05:37 Aquila- wrote: High master, in TvT I do forgg build 15 gas into hellions, how to I defend the marine tank push that comes after cloak banshee or later even the marine marodeur stim tank viking push? do I NEED to get marine tank at start? should I add facotry number 2 and 3 before third cc? thanks. 2 things to do: snipe at the army as it crosses the map to whittle the Marine count down; OR bum-rush the army as the tanks are trying to get into position to siege. Use your Raven-Viking to clear out any Banshees, target down Marine clumps with Hellions, and surround the Tanks with SCVs. Once any Banshees are gone, you can land the Viking to help clean up or drop Auto-Turrets. If it's the 2-base variant, you probably will have a Tank or two in time, and then it's all about having good positioning. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
I completely out played him with my drops where all he did was 1A for defense. The initial Marine and Marauder push wasn't smart and I should have waited for at least Stim. But he managed to go 3 Colossi and mass High Templar off 2 base economy. WTF? | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
On January 25 2014 01:03 gillon wrote: Most probably some mixture of Thor/mine/viking, is my assumption. **This is from my my experience in many tvp mech games and a lot of hours in unit tester** When going for tank, hellbat, ghost, viking (ALWAYS need at least a few vikings for things like warp prism, MSC, colo, sky transition ect...) like supernova you don't want to get stuck into mines and thors... Going for thor hellbat raven/banshee is different story... So basically supernova panicked and threw that game. When supernova scouted the carriers as soon as he did, (which was before they even started building!) all he needed was two reactor starports (he already had one), mass up vikes and gogogo. Supernova built the starports but built one to many (total of three) and couldn't afford 4 vikes at a time, then attacked into i think 3-6 carriers with like 4 vikes while a counter attack killed him. I think he knew he could win the game before the carrier #s got to high, but he got countered as soon as he moved out, panicked and lost. Even supply in vikes vs carriers wins untill the carriers are around 10 and always trade well untill 20ish. But with viking build time you can usually whittle down carriers before they can camp the starports. Normally when you know a stargate is in the game (oracle opener) or you scout stagate play, you only need a few thors for voids and pheonix (thor splash on voids is worth getting a few to help vikes). Carriers shit all over thors while vikes and ravens shit on carrier. *untill carrier numbers go crazy, which is why, like supernova you have to gogogo before they can go full sky toss. Obviously if you need AA in a hurry you want to spam WM and Thors to help, but vikings need to be your main goto if you wanna play the aggressive tank hellbat ghost. TLDR: Vikings not thors | ||
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Fhiz
361 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On January 25 2014 13:23 Fhiz wrote: what have you guys been doing on deadalus point vs zerg? With the roach/ ling aggression being strong? Personally I have had a lot of success with hellion banshee (up to like 12/2) putting the zerg on the back foot and hurting his econ and slowing down whatever roach push he is doing. And if he is playing standard then i will hopefully deny a 3rd and still do economic damage (although banshees not as good vs lings as roaches). Just wondering how (if at all) you guys have adapted your play for this map. I open exclusively 12/12 Reaper FE into Hellion/Banshee+Cloak with heavy pressure on the third of the Zerg. I go up to minimum 3 Banshees and 12 Hellions, transitioning into mech or bio as desired. Special adaptations that I make for this map are: 1. Immediate second Depot after Barracks finishes + OC/Reaper so as to cut down on the success rate of 10-15 pool openings (even a 9 pool should not arrive until after you can start completing the wall off). 2. Relentless aggression at the third, committing quite heavily to killing it and/or forcing an overcommitment to defense. There's no way Queens alone perform well against Hellion/Banshee on Daedalus assuming competent micro, and the Cloak upgrade comes in exceptionally handy in necessitating either lots of Spores to control the vast array of open space or gas sunk into Overseers to babysit. 3. Earlier Turrets/Sensor Towers if I scout fast Lair, because Mutalisk play is VERY good here. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On January 25 2014 12:57 geokilla wrote: Aside from the obvious imbalance whine, how the fuck was I supposed to win here? http://drop.sc/371817 I completely out played him with my drops where all he did was 1A for defense. The initial Marine and Marauder push wasn't smart and I should have waited for at least Stim. But he managed to go 3 Colossi and mass High Templar off 2 base economy. WTF? I watched the replay, and even by 10 minutes you are already way behind. You have only 35 workers and your build hasn't been very crisp (15 gas into 3 rax is kinda weird). You are already quite behind. At 15:30 you throw away all your vikings for nothing, so not sure what that is about. He takes his third only a little after you do, and it really isn't going to put him really far behind. Your multiprong attacks are okay, but nothing to write home about. And then when he marches across the map at around 20 minutes, your army composition is terrible. No ghosts, 3 medivacs, and only a couple vikings. He was also macroing far better than you. And as for you completely outplaying him with drops, the goal of drops is twofold: trade with protoss gateway units to keep their army supply low while building your own, and also to buy time for your tech to counter theirs. In your drops all you did was trade for gateways, cannons, and pylons while you built pure bio behind it. So here is what you should have done: Build a better army composition (you can play without ghosts or vikings but you need good micro and around 12 medivacs, and must constantly trade to keep army count low. Also you can avoid constant trading but you need tech), instead of a 3 medivac 4 viking, and the rest bio composition. Also, you can't randomly sacrifice sections of your army, keep it all together, because that can and will lose you the game. Finally, you need to engage better. When you dodge storms, don't run your whole army back. Preemptively pull back units in front of templar, and split away from the center. You lost a lot of dps from storm dodging, where a lot of the time if you had sat in them you may have been in a better position. I know beating protoss seems difficult and annoying, but when done correctly with drops for the right purposes, and a good army composition, you will wonder how you ever lost. | ||
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ImperialFist
790 Posts
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On January 26 2014 02:35 Doc Brawler wrote: I've preferred marine tank over mines since the patch. Its not as good as the old OP widowmine, but its better than the new widowmine...As to mutas, I just get thors a bit sooner than in the ol wol days... and ultras are better so I make marauders sooner as well... at least broodlord infester sucks now with ravens and nerfed infestors Among Korean terrans, the meta seems to be shifting toward bio hellbat thor, or just bio-thor, with 4 or more thors in the lategame. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On January 26 2014 05:24 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Among Korean terrans, the meta seems to be shifting toward bio hellbat thor, or just bio-thor, with 4 or more thors in the lategame. Thors are REALLY fucking good in TvZ right now. Thor-Marine-Medivac with a sprinkling of Mines for area control just slaughters the big Mutalisk packs a la Scarlett that many Zerg players like, whereas they also provide large, low-splash effect targets for heavy AoE such as mass Baneling or Ultras. It's not uncommon for the Thors to be really effective in the transition to more Marauders, because they do decently versus the Ultralisks and necessitate the manual targeting of Banelings. | ||
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pali_
Germany48 Posts
Or maybe just go banshee into one-base tank bio banshee all-in on this one? /e: I am diamond btw. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On January 26 2014 07:46 pali_ wrote: What's your opinion on TvT on Habitation Station guys? Somehow I can't figure out a way how to beat a turtling 3base mech player with bio? So is this map mech or die? Or maybe just go banshee into one-base tank bio banshee all-in on this one? /e: I am diamond btw. If they take the gold, the area from 2. to 3. base is pretty open, and all three bases are harrassable by drops. IF the ytake the blue, there's a lot of drop area as well as a lot of angles to hit the third. I prefer bio because the gold helps you a lot more than him. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Habitation Station tvt is pretty normal for tvt other then reapers seem a bit poor, not much cliff space. Aggressive 1/1/1's are fine. If they go mech, I imagine you could set up a pretty reasonable contain outside their 3 bases (assuming they expand southwards and not to the gold. If they take the gold then the trick is to try and siege up their mineral line from the middle of the map) and just outexpand them. Alternatively you can try and feint aggression to their natural and 3rd and try and abuse the large main for dropping, or going around the most east (or west) part of the map. I don't see mech that often on that map and I don't really play it much either so maybe there's something I've missed. | ||
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pali_
Germany48 Posts
The problem I experience the most is that the meching player turtles EXTREMELY hard, i.e. has turretrings etc to prevent drops + sensor towers to be able to react to my army movements. Also, if he has a smart unit comp, you can't drop his tank line / use cloaked banshee either. And once on three bases, with 6 gases, it's really easy for him to max out and once he does, he can just a-move into me - more or less. Ofc, I have to seize an opportunity to catch him unsieged etc, but even then, a maxed out mech with 3-3 is still hard to kill with bio even unsieged, imo (give the right ratio of hellbats / tanks, ofc). What are your general thoughts on mech in TvT? I have always been playing bio and still do, but I feel like after the last few mech changes (tanks, mech upgrades) AND the map pool, mech feels more and more superior and I am having a much harder time against it than previously. How do you guys see it? | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Mech is viable and I lose against it a ton. I mostly struggle for three reasons, 1) I have a shit early game and a mech player who can safely take expansions and devote more resources to defence then he'd otherwise be comfortable with is a mech player whose almost certainly going to win, 2) Mech units are pretty fucking good and I'm bad at finding the gaps to exploit 3) In my desperation to do damage I sometime commit units right into siege tanks or medivacs into vikings suicidally. Playing vs mech requires a very delicate precision on both sides I find. | ||
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Skyblueone
Belgium155 Posts
I also lost nearly all my tvz where i went for a fast 3 cc, and I just don't understand why. Here are 2 replays of my last games, if you have any remarks I would really appreciate. -http://ggtracker.com/matches/4654624 -http://ggtracker.com/matches/4654496 | ||
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pali_
Germany48 Posts
Don't think it's viable in HotS though, since the most TvT openings I know go for a kind of gas expand into 1-1-1 to be able to defend the huge variety of shenanigans which can come at you in a TvT. Also, I still haven't made up my mind when it comes to my go to opening in TvT. Recently, I have been using the Maru Anti-Banshee Build, but I am not sold to it yet. My alternative would be a gas first banshee play into second and third CC - maybe I should try this one. | ||
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