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On January 29 2014 11:30 Aquila- wrote: In TvP masters, how do I react if the Protoss goes 2 base chargelot templer? Against colo first I can do 5 rax scv pull choo choo, but that doesnt work vs storm. Since I cant punish it with an allin, should I get a fast third off 3 baracks? If he goes heavy on armor upgrades, should I get quick armory and start +2 attack quickly? Instantly ghosts? What is the gas spending priority? Should I stop medivacs after 4 or 6 and spend gas on upgrades and ghosts? What is more important? Thanks.
I find that a wall helps a ton versus this build, also 5 rax is better if you know it's coming ofc. I wouldn't rush to ghost though, all you need is to hold your natural while dropping him since he will be hard pressed to defend with his hts out on the map and being so invested in that. Maybe if they implement the ghost energy change, ghosts will then crush this build.
On January 27 2014 23:16 PyroN wrote: Hellbats in PvT? Hey guys I am not a pro player or so, But I am wondering why doesn´t more Terrans incorporate Hellbats to the PvT matchup?
I mean look at the cons.
They are -Big and tanky -Can be healed by medivacs -Can soak storms -Really good counter to charegelots(bonus vs light) -No gas cost(!)
Those are the pros.
The cons: - Immobile - Relatively expensive - Require Blueflame = Expensive - ONLY good vs Chargelot - Can't be dropped - Prevent Kiting
Actually I don't think they're "relatively expensive", it has 135 hp and only cost 100 mineral! Blueflame is a big boost but not required, and they're not only good vs Chargelots but also Stalkers actually, yes they will be kited, but Stalkers do sooo little damage to them, the true threat is storm. If P kite Hellbat without storm, their army will be hit by other Terran units and the exchange is more efficient for T. (e.g. Viking hits Clossus) Also, they will lose their defend line. this is my mech TvP experience.
I think the more important reason is that in a bio TvP, there's no time/space/resource to add 2-3 factory with reactor.
On January 29 2014 18:13 yuuG wrote: How do I play vs the Parting blink + 7.30 3rd build? Assuming I went reaper expand.
There was a SPL game a few days after flash lost to Partings blink with few stalkers into 3rd. Iirc it was on Yeonsu and involved good scouting and heavy dropping.
On January 29 2014 11:30 Aquila- wrote: In TvP masters, how do I react if the Protoss goes 2 base chargelot templer? Against colo first I can do 5 rax scv pull choo choo, but that doesnt work vs storm. Since I cant punish it with an allin, should I get a fast third off 3 baracks? If he goes heavy on armor upgrades, should I get quick armory and start +2 attack quickly? Instantly ghosts? What is the gas spending priority? Should I stop medivacs after 4 or 6 and spend gas on upgrades and ghosts? What is more important? Thanks.
I've seen and experienced good things with using your multitasking to delay the attack. If he goes 2-base Chargelot/Archon/HT allin, he will be low on Observers as well as AA. Ergo, multiprong drop play will be okay as long as you don't just auto-drop into his units. Aim for sniping Forges to delay his upgrade edge, and try to minimize his Probe/Pylon/Gateway count so that he can't just flood those last 10 Zealots and an Archon when you're barely hanging on.
I would generally advise still going 5-rax before third, and just cutting the fast 2/2 ups that most Terrans go for in exchange for Ghosts. You're not going to stay even with a determined double-Forge Protoss anyways, so why not just get those 3-4 critical EMPs, then try to get the upgrades. Ghosts, a mobile army, and correct positioning is what saves you from a Chargelot/Archon attack, not maxed upgrades.
I remember a particularly good game by Innovation that illustrates this. He was playing some high-level Protoss like sOs or Parting on Neo Planet S (particularly good for this allin, because of the lack of Bunker space and short rush distance). He had only 2 Bunkers, but spread his bio ball well, and also placed several Supply Depots in the path of the Protoss army right in front of the Bunkers. He also got Ghosts really early (i.e. pre-Armory), so he could Snipe/EMP when necessary. The Depots placed at his choke fucked up the Zealot AI, which also caused the Archons to derp out trying to move past, and he got money EMPs to win the game right there when he couldn't be broken.
In theory, Hellbats are sick good in this situation, but I haven't yet been convinced of the correct way to get there.
But what if I go 5 rax and ghosts off 2 base with bad upgrades just to hold his "allin" and it turns out that he just doesnt commit and gets a third. What if he just goes the macro version of chargelot templer, then he has 2-2 upgrades, storm, a third, while I am sitting on 2 bases with shit upgrades and only ghosts. Then I am severly behind and need to win very soon or I will lose...
On January 29 2014 11:30 Aquila- wrote: In TvP masters, how do I react if the Protoss goes 2 base chargelot templer? Against colo first I can do 5 rax scv pull choo choo, but that doesnt work vs storm. Since I cant punish it with an allin, should I get a fast third off 3 baracks? If he goes heavy on armor upgrades, should I get quick armory and start +2 attack quickly? Instantly ghosts? What is the gas spending priority? Should I stop medivacs after 4 or 6 and spend gas on upgrades and ghosts? What is more important? Thanks.
I've seen and experienced good things with using your multitasking to delay the attack. If he goes 2-base Chargelot/Archon/HT allin, he will be low on Observers as well as AA. Ergo, multiprong drop play will be okay as long as you don't just auto-drop into his units. Aim for sniping Forges to delay his upgrade edge, and try to minimize his Probe/Pylon/Gateway count so that he can't just flood those last 10 Zealots and an Archon when you're barely hanging on.
I would generally advise still going 5-rax before third, and just cutting the fast 2/2 ups that most Terrans go for in exchange for Ghosts. You're not going to stay even with a determined double-Forge Protoss anyways, so why not just get those 3-4 critical EMPs, then try to get the upgrades. Ghosts, a mobile army, and correct positioning is what saves you from a Chargelot/Archon attack, not maxed upgrades.
I remember a particularly good game by Innovation that illustrates this. He was playing some high-level Protoss like sOs or Parting on Neo Planet S (particularly good for this allin, because of the lack of Bunker space and short rush distance). He had only 2 Bunkers, but spread his bio ball well, and also placed several Supply Depots in the path of the Protoss army right in front of the Bunkers. He also got Ghosts really early (i.e. pre-Armory), so he could Snipe/EMP when necessary. The Depots placed at his choke fucked up the Zealot AI, which also caused the Archons to derp out trying to move past, and he got money EMPs to win the game right there when he couldn't be broken.
In theory, Hellbats are sick good in this situation, but I haven't yet been convinced of the correct way to get there.
But what if I go 5 rax and ghosts off 2 base with bad upgrades just to hold his "allin" and it turns out that he just doesnt commit and gets a third. What if he just goes the macro version of chargelot templer, then he has 2-2 upgrades, storm, a third, while I am sitting on 2 bases with shit upgrades and only ghosts. Then I am severly behind and need to win very soon or I will lose...
But you're dropping during this if you're following the above post so you know when the P grabs his 3rd and whether or not he's actually all in. You can only use so many units to defend your natural anyway so if his army is parked outside your base since he's recognized he'd lose a lot trying to break you he'll still be hard pressed to deal with the 2, then 3, then 4 medivacs shitting on his bases.
On January 29 2014 18:13 yuuG wrote: How do I play vs the Parting blink + 7.30 3rd build? Assuming I went reaper expand.
There was a SPL game a few days after flash lost to Partings blink with few stalkers into 3rd. Iirc it was on Yeonsu and involved good scouting and heavy dropping.
Do you recall the players? Heavy dopping vs both templar and blink tech though.... T_T
On January 29 2014 18:13 yuuG wrote: How do I play vs the Parting blink + 7.30 3rd build? Assuming I went reaper expand.
There was a SPL game a few days after flash lost to Partings blink with few stalkers into 3rd. Iirc it was on Yeonsu and involved good scouting and heavy dropping.
Do you recall the players? Heavy dopping vs both templar and blink tech though.... T_T
[SPL2014] Flash(KT) vs Hero(IM) Set3 Bel'Shir-Vestige
Iirc i meant this. Just watch it 2-3 times and try to concentrate on all the things flash does.
Edit: Iirc there was a problem with storm or so (i believe Hero forgot it). Maybe some better terran in this thread could watch it and see if the build order is solid enough.
On January 29 2014 11:30 Aquila- wrote: In TvP masters, how do I react if the Protoss goes 2 base chargelot templer? Against colo first I can do 5 rax scv pull choo choo, but that doesnt work vs storm. Since I cant punish it with an allin, should I get a fast third off 3 baracks? If he goes heavy on armor upgrades, should I get quick armory and start +2 attack quickly? Instantly ghosts? What is the gas spending priority? Should I stop medivacs after 4 or 6 and spend gas on upgrades and ghosts? What is more important? Thanks.
I've seen and experienced good things with using your multitasking to delay the attack. If he goes 2-base Chargelot/Archon/HT allin, he will be low on Observers as well as AA. Ergo, multiprong drop play will be okay as long as you don't just auto-drop into his units. Aim for sniping Forges to delay his upgrade edge, and try to minimize his Probe/Pylon/Gateway count so that he can't just flood those last 10 Zealots and an Archon when you're barely hanging on.
I would generally advise still going 5-rax before third, and just cutting the fast 2/2 ups that most Terrans go for in exchange for Ghosts. You're not going to stay even with a determined double-Forge Protoss anyways, so why not just get those 3-4 critical EMPs, then try to get the upgrades. Ghosts, a mobile army, and correct positioning is what saves you from a Chargelot/Archon attack, not maxed upgrades.
I remember a particularly good game by Innovation that illustrates this. He was playing some high-level Protoss like sOs or Parting on Neo Planet S (particularly good for this allin, because of the lack of Bunker space and short rush distance). He had only 2 Bunkers, but spread his bio ball well, and also placed several Supply Depots in the path of the Protoss army right in front of the Bunkers. He also got Ghosts really early (i.e. pre-Armory), so he could Snipe/EMP when necessary. The Depots placed at his choke fucked up the Zealot AI, which also caused the Archons to derp out trying to move past, and he got money EMPs to win the game right there when he couldn't be broken.
In theory, Hellbats are sick good in this situation, but I haven't yet been convinced of the correct way to get there.
But what if I go 5 rax and ghosts off 2 base with bad upgrades just to hold his "allin" and it turns out that he just doesnt commit and gets a third. What if he just goes the macro version of chargelot templer, then he has 2-2 upgrades, storm, a third, while I am sitting on 2 bases with shit upgrades and only ghosts. Then I am severly behind and need to win very soon or I will lose...
But you're dropping during this if you're following the above post so you know when the P grabs his 3rd and whether or not he's actually all in. You can only use so many units to defend your natural anyway so if his army is parked outside your base since he's recognized he'd lose a lot trying to break you he'll still be hard pressed to deal with the 2, then 3, then 4 medivacs shitting on his bases.
I dont know. I have a hard time holding this push even without sending drops away. If I have 2 full medivacs less at my base I probably need at least 5 bunkers to not die. He has 8 gates on 2 bases, so even a 2 medivac drop can easily be stopped by overcharge + a few chargelots warpin in and then I die at my base.
On January 29 2014 11:30 Aquila- wrote: In TvP masters, how do I react if the Protoss goes 2 base chargelot templer? Against colo first I can do 5 rax scv pull choo choo, but that doesnt work vs storm. Since I cant punish it with an allin, should I get a fast third off 3 baracks? If he goes heavy on armor upgrades, should I get quick armory and start +2 attack quickly? Instantly ghosts? What is the gas spending priority? Should I stop medivacs after 4 or 6 and spend gas on upgrades and ghosts? What is more important? Thanks.
I've seen and experienced good things with using your multitasking to delay the attack. If he goes 2-base Chargelot/Archon/HT allin, he will be low on Observers as well as AA. Ergo, multiprong drop play will be okay as long as you don't just auto-drop into his units. Aim for sniping Forges to delay his upgrade edge, and try to minimize his Probe/Pylon/Gateway count so that he can't just flood those last 10 Zealots and an Archon when you're barely hanging on.
I would generally advise still going 5-rax before third, and just cutting the fast 2/2 ups that most Terrans go for in exchange for Ghosts. You're not going to stay even with a determined double-Forge Protoss anyways, so why not just get those 3-4 critical EMPs, then try to get the upgrades. Ghosts, a mobile army, and correct positioning is what saves you from a Chargelot/Archon attack, not maxed upgrades.
I remember a particularly good game by Innovation that illustrates this. He was playing some high-level Protoss like sOs or Parting on Neo Planet S (particularly good for this allin, because of the lack of Bunker space and short rush distance). He had only 2 Bunkers, but spread his bio ball well, and also placed several Supply Depots in the path of the Protoss army right in front of the Bunkers. He also got Ghosts really early (i.e. pre-Armory), so he could Snipe/EMP when necessary. The Depots placed at his choke fucked up the Zealot AI, which also caused the Archons to derp out trying to move past, and he got money EMPs to win the game right there when he couldn't be broken.
In theory, Hellbats are sick good in this situation, but I haven't yet been convinced of the correct way to get there.
But what if I go 5 rax and ghosts off 2 base with bad upgrades just to hold his "allin" and it turns out that he just doesnt commit and gets a third. What if he just goes the macro version of chargelot templer, then he has 2-2 upgrades, storm, a third, while I am sitting on 2 bases with shit upgrades and only ghosts. Then I am severly behind and need to win very soon or I will lose...
But you're dropping during this if you're following the above post so you know when the P grabs his 3rd and whether or not he's actually all in. You can only use so many units to defend your natural anyway so if his army is parked outside your base since he's recognized he'd lose a lot trying to break you he'll still be hard pressed to deal with the 2, then 3, then 4 medivacs shitting on his bases.
I dont know. I have a hard time holding this push even without sending drops away. If I have 2 full medivacs less at my base I probably need at least 5 bunkers to not die. He has 8 gates on 2 bases, so even a 2 medivac drop can easily be stopped by overcharge + a few chargelots warpin in and then I die at my base.
You don't need to send out drops during the attack, although you can delay the attack substantially if you keep your first two Medivacs loaded with units ready to poke in and do massive damage the second he moves out. He can't afford to lose the services of 3 warp gates or 6 pylons, so he has to respond, and that buys you time to meet the frontal attack more effectively.
What you can do is send out drops as soon as you confirm he isn't trying to bust you again (easily done with 1 Marine or SCV to check for warp-ins at the front. Make it so unbelievably hard for him to take a third that he can't tech transition. You will only get more Ghosts and bio, and let's face it, a Terran bio-ball with Ghosts against an only Gateway unit/Templar army is going to not end well for the Protoss player if the Terran micros correctly, 2/2 or not.
On January 27 2014 23:16 PyroN wrote: Hellbats in PvT? Hey guys I am not a pro player or so, But I am wondering why doesn´t more Terrans incorporate Hellbats to the PvT matchup?
I mean look at the cons.
They are -Big and tanky -Can be healed by medivacs -Can soak storms -Really good counter to charegelots(bonus vs light) -No gas cost(!)
I Have seen many Pro PvTs Where i Start to wonder how the engagements would have gone with hellbats at the front(instead of marines)
I think it would benefit to skip some marines in the late game and replace them with hellbats, Mainly when going up against the strong Chargelot/archon/templar combo.
Drop some EMP and stomp that army! Well at least in theory! Let me here your thoughts good Terrans.
Those are the pros.
The cons: - Immobile - Relatively expensive - Require Blueflame = Expensive - ONLY good vs Chargelot - Can't be dropped - Prevent Kiting
The biggest thing is that it's a factory unit that doesn't blend well with bio. Bio is all fast and agile while hellbats are slower and clunky. Mostly Hellbats are used for drop harass but why commit so many resources to something you wouldn't use often. It's a different story if you are going Mech however which players tend not to do. Hellbats like you said can tank storms and get healed and that goes well with the slower mech style. Mech is really just underused and top players can't afford to deviate from bio builds because they don't have time to learn a new style.
If you think your opponent is going heavy zealot/templar style make a reactor on your factory and make a few widow mines. The explosions add up nicely and forces them to go into observers and a longer game. You can camp outside one of his bases with widow mines and just keep picking away at him with a smal lgroup of bio, baiting out storms and picking away at his units and falling back to the mines. It's pretty cool.
Trading Storms for Mines is not efficient for toss at all.... So you have to spread them enough to make it so 1 storm can't take more than 1 out at a time. Seeing how widow mines cost 75 / 25 and you can make 2 at a time this strategy does work well vs Storm first protoss... the hardest thing is confirming that he is going this build and doesn't play the standard Robo +1 forge play which pretty much puts a hurting on you with the observers..... So if you see the council and double forge this is a good response.....
What kind of timing are you talking about here? I'm assuming you play bio and just added the mines into your composition.
I have no experience with using mines as a combat unit in TvP, but I dont see this as a viable option at all. During any stage of the game, protoss has units that out-range mines (stalkers, then later on colossi). If he sees you burrowing mines, he's just going to pull his zealots back and pick mines off with his stalkers. As soon as colossi come out, the value of mines completely nullifies.
Just the humble oppinion of a diamond terran though
On January 31 2014 00:47 G-force wrote: @ Pirfiktshon
What kind of timing are you talking about here? I'm assuming you play bio and just added the mines into your composition.
I have no experience with using mines as a combat unit in TvP, but I dont see this as a viable option at all. During any stage of the game, protoss has units that out-range mines (stalkers, then later on colossi). If he sees you burrowing mines, he's just going to pull his zealots back and pick mines off with his stalkers. As soon as colossi come out, the value of mines completely nullifies.
Just the humble oppinion of a diamond terran though
Mines in your army are mostly viable against Oracle into Templar openings, especially if you killed the Oracle(s) as he's left with no mobile detection until his robo is complete. They're indeed of no value against Stalkers/Colossi armies, but of course you don't make them against that kind of composition.
In the game on heavy rain would the push that bomber did with the 2 tanks and a handful of marines, viable against all builds or do you have to do damage to the marine count with the banshees? Or was it reactionary to Jjakji's 2 rax reaper?
In the second game, kind of a similar question is playing with just an insane amount of marines and medivacs at all possible in any other fashion than a giant map and cc first vs cc first?
Mines in your army are mostly viable against Oracle into Templar openings, especially if you killed the Oracle(s) as he's left with no mobile detection until his robo is complete. They're indeed of no value against Stalkers/Colossi armies, but of course you don't make them against that kind of composition.
@G-Force This ^ hahaha. Thats why against robo openers its pretty useless because of stalkers just outrange it. I don't really go this to often just because of that. Most of the time I will reactor out Hellbats if i See Double Forge council play but I enjoy watching zlots melt and Marauder laugh at the tickle storm haha.
In the game on heavy rain would the push that bomber did with the 2 tanks and a handful of marines, viable against all builds or do you have to do damage to the marine count with the banshees? Or was it reactionary to Jjakji's 2 rax reaper?
In the second game, kind of a similar question is playing with just an insane amount of marines and medivacs at all possible in any other fashion than a giant map and cc first vs cc first?
That was a counter to 2 rax reaper. 2 rax reaper struggles quite a bit against gas first banshee if it's unable to do much damage before the banshee shows up and jjakji did bugger all. bomber planned on killing a ton with the banshee and also to prevent jjakji from having a bunker up before his push showed up to win the game. Normally bomber would expand before making tanks and then play a normal game (add raven instead of second banshee, add reactor after 6 marines, then add tanks)
Didn't see second game I don't play alterzim. Sorry.
EPT
