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I understand that i wasn't very active with my army on the map and that i could of taken more bases etc. etc. But what exactly can we as terran do against committed zealot archon i dont get very much practice against it so i really just didnt know what to do? Can anyone help me out?
Edit: Also, i heard on xenos stream he said something about a 2 base mech all in that is really strong. My TvT has also been kind of lacking recently, what exactly was he referring to? Tried asking in his chat but limited reply ~_~
On December 15 2013 05:37 Taranok wrote: How does Marine + Tank compare to Marine+Maurader+Tank in engagements?
In TvT? Marine + Tank is unquestionably better unless you are playing against mech. The awesome DPS of the Marines means that even if your opponent can tank shots with Marauders, your Marines will just rip everything apart and he will have no more protection from your Tanks. Obviously, Marauders are at least partially necessary when playing versus mech because Hellbats laugh at Marines when they're backed up by 20 Siege Tanks.
If you encounter a Marine + Marauder + Tank player and you are playing straight Marine + Tank, you should be doing all of the typical positional warfare things you would be doing anyways. If critical engagements happen, expect him to jump forward small groups of Marauders to try and snipe Tanks. You will have greater Marine numbers as an aggregate, so concentrate heavily on out-flanking his Marauder hit-squads with your more numerous Marines while your Tanks obliterate his Marines and leave you with control.
Hey guys Mid-masters+ terran here and I need some help with TvT. I am really good late game TvT but I completely am trash at early game - mid game TvT unless I open up proxy reaper/rauder. Reason being is because I ABSOLUTELY HATE cloak banshees. I refuse to build them myself because I think they are kind of gambly and also automatically turns the game into a 20+ minute game almost no matter what. I like to play hyper-aggresive in every match up and I believe this is the shining point of my play. I feel Cloak banshee/hellion openings kind of stop this from happening and I don't really know any openings that I can do that I would actually enjoy playing.
It seems the only correct response to cloak banshee/hellion is to play 3CC but I find this incredibly boring and void of much skill. Please anyone help me out with TvT!!!!
I understand that i wasn't very active with my army on the map and that i could of taken more bases etc. etc. But what exactly can we as terran do against committed zealot archon i dont get very much practice against it so i really just didnt know what to do? Can anyone help me out?
Edit: Also, i heard on xenos stream he said something about a 2 base mech all in that is really strong. My TvT has also been kind of lacking recently, what exactly was he referring to? Tried asking in his chat but limited reply ~_~
Streaming a review of your replay live in 10 minutes(xx:50) Will post highlight and general overview afterwards.
How does Marine + Tank compare to Marine+Maurader+Tank in engagements?
Jazzman already commented on this but I'll say this straight up. Marine Marauder tank is only viable when you are Insanely ahead against Marine Tank.... I've had this experience first hand against General a GM terran I tried this hahaha on ladder it failed so miserably and i was slightly ahead and even on upgrades in mid game he just walked me(incidently this was the first and last time i used this against marine tank).... marine tank is far superior than Marine Marauder Tank when comparing those 2 against each other... On the other hand when playing Mech you almost HAVE to use MMT against it if you try MT against it it plays pretty much the same principal as MT vs MMT lol its strange hwo the match up works
Actually Jazzman hellbats laugh at marauders, marines are a much stronger counter to the hellbat. Marauders are necessary against mech for tanking shots like you said but I use an even smaller ratio of marauders than I do tvp, 2 TL'd rax as opposed to 3 (on 5 rax).
If you are playing marine tank against marine marauder tank just play as you normally would against marine tank with the knowledge that your opponent is on an inferior composition as marauders are terrible against marines, and they eat into his tank count.
On December 15 2013 07:01 Soldier92 wrote: Actually Jazzman hellbats laugh at marauders, marines are a much stronger counter to the hellbat. Marauders are necessary against mech for tanking shots like you said but I use an even smaller ratio of marauders than I do tvp, 2 TL'd rax as opposed to 3 (on 5 rax).
If you are playing marine tank against marine marauder tank just play as you normally would against marine tank with the knowledge that your opponent is on an inferior composition as marauders are terrible against marines, and they eat into his tank count.
I guess it depends on what kind of versus mech you are playing. Basically I think the equation goes something like +2 Marauders = -1 Tank. If you triple Factory Tank in Marine Tank versus Mech, you are going to naturally be lighter on Marauders. In my opinion (and this is only my opinion from watching pro games, so I could be wrong), overcommitting to lots of tanks if you aren't playing mech is not as helpful as the Marine/Marauder/Medivac multitask that you try to use to stretch out your opponent. Sure you'll want a few Tanks but I think either going pure Bio or light Tanks for defending key areas plus lots of Marine/Marauder to pick the opponent apart is better than the middle ground of some Marauders and some Tanks.
On December 13 2013 19:54 JonIrenicus wrote: I've got a question. I seem not to be able to do ghosts vs ht fights.
The protoss is always able to feedback my ghosts, before my ghosts are able to get his hts. Also, I'm not able to understand how T pros are able to snipe 2 times in less than one second the same ht.
select 2 ghosts and try to get in range and use the snipe abilty with both ghosts selected... u can train fast sniping at the sc2 micro masters thing...
my tipp for u try to steal the vision from protoss (observers). and dont run into highgrounds without a scan, and watch out for ht flanks maybe with 1 or 2 vikings or marines
It's funny, but you don't even need to pull two ghosts. One would suffice. There's this odd thing that I learned, where if you put the ghosts on hold fire command (f key) you can actually shift+snipe, where only one ghost will fire all his snipes/energy before the others move forward. This is very beneficial for quite a few reasons, one of the most important is not losing one ghost after the other to feedback.
The downside to doing this is that your ghosts aren't on auto attack command if they get shot at. So you'll need to highlight/select their group and a-move to remove the hold fire command that you have given.
Try it out. Let me know how it works for you.
I just tried it in the Unit Tester, but couldn't see a difference between shift+sniping with the "hold fire"-command enabled/disabled. In both situations multiple ghosts from my control group moved forward to snipe (unless i selected a single ghost of course).
this has been posted in this thread before but I think this is how the pros snipe twice (or more) in under a second:
I also notice they keep all their ghosts on a separate hotkey from their army and keep them clumped up but out of the way.
question:
TvT I open gas first and always scout after my gas is saturated and I have 10 scvs mining minerals. whats the best reaction to cc first? it seems they can pretty easily counter my normal cloak banshee or widow mine drop if they get a good scan on my stuff. im gold. thanks in advance.
On December 13 2013 19:54 JonIrenicus wrote: I've got a question. I seem not to be able to do ghosts vs ht fights.
The protoss is always able to feedback my ghosts, before my ghosts are able to get his hts. Also, I'm not able to understand how T pros are able to snipe 2 times in less than one second the same ht.
select 2 ghosts and try to get in range and use the snipe abilty with both ghosts selected... u can train fast sniping at the sc2 micro masters thing...
my tipp for u try to steal the vision from protoss (observers). and dont run into highgrounds without a scan, and watch out for ht flanks maybe with 1 or 2 vikings or marines
It's funny, but you don't even need to pull two ghosts. One would suffice. There's this odd thing that I learned, where if you put the ghosts on hold fire command (f key) you can actually shift+snipe, where only one ghost will fire all his snipes/energy before the others move forward. This is very beneficial for quite a few reasons, one of the most important is not losing one ghost after the other to feedback.
The downside to doing this is that your ghosts aren't on auto attack command if they get shot at. So you'll need to highlight/select their group and a-move to remove the hold fire command that you have given.
Try it out. Let me know how it works for you.
I just tried it in the Unit Tester, but couldn't see a difference between shift+sniping with the "hold fire"-command enabled/disabled. In both situations multiple ghosts from my control group moved forward to snipe (unless i selected a single ghost of course).
I also notice they keep all their ghosts on a separate hotkey from their army and keep them clumped up but out of the way.
question:
TvT I open gas first and always scout after my gas is saturated and I have 10 scvs mining minerals. whats the best reaction to cc first? it seems they can pretty easily counter my normal cloak banshee or widow mine drop if they get a good scan on my stuff. im gold. thanks in advance.
Hmm, I would go the usual 1/1/1, if you seen him go for a lot of rax then just straight cloak banshee and double expo behind it. If hes going 1/1/1 behind it you can still opt for 1/1/1 aggression, helion drop with a delayed cloakshee would be good and just double expand again and dont let your units die needlessly because if you can still drop and swing in with a banshee then they cant really turn around and punish your greedy build.
Follow up normally then with mech bio etc while getting your upgrades.
So I don't quite understand what happened in this game... Standard TvT bio vs mech. Yet he completely annihilated me within 20 minutes, even though we barely fought, and I held an advantage in every possible way?
On December 15 2013 10:50 geokilla wrote: So I don't quite understand what happened in this game... Standard TvT bio vs mech. Yet he completely annihilated me within 20 minutes, even though we barely fought, and I held an advantage in every possible way?
You actually had no advantages throughout that entire game. Your opening was barely more economic than his (CC first vs 1 rax CC), your ninja third didn't provide you any advantage due to his blindly checking cross map first with his reaper/hellion group (by the time you really had it up and going, he had his own uncontested third up shortly after), he kept up on upgrades (even surpassed you by the end of the game), and the one time you had a real supply advantage (as bio should have in mid-game) you decided to attack into an established siege line and lose it all for almost nothing in return -- a consistent tragedy you performed throughout the game, supply advantage or not.
Given how mech is a more powerful army composition than bio, what bio strategy revolves around is stifling the mech player with economic harass, drop play, and threatening backstabs if he tries to move out. Meanwhile, you should be using your resource advantage (both in terms of bases/economy and the reduced cost of your army vs. his) to perform a better and faster air transition. Your air transition was actually behind his and he had the upgrades to back it up, which finally clinched him the game.
I sniffed around (but couldn't find) for the answer to the question "what time is good to scan for hive?" I know it was answered a little bit ago but like i said i couldnt find it.
On December 15 2013 12:30 Fhiz wrote: I sniffed around (but couldn't find) for the answer to the question "what time is good to scan for hive?" I know it was answered a little bit ago but like i said i couldnt find it.
I always go 14 or 15 minutes depending on when they take the 3rd and their muta count and how we've traded
altho I'm just getting back into sc2 now after a 4-5 month break. 25-7 atm almost top 8 dia so it's coming back slowly
On December 15 2013 06:33 terranimbastimamove wrote: Hey guys Mid-masters+ terran here and I need some help with TvT. I am really good late game TvT but I completely am trash at early game - mid game TvT unless I open up proxy reaper/rauder. Reason being is because I ABSOLUTELY HATE cloak banshees. I refuse to build them myself because I think they are kind of gambly and also automatically turns the game into a 20+ minute game almost no matter what. I like to play hyper-aggresive in every match up and I believe this is the shining point of my play. I feel Cloak banshee/hellion openings kind of stop this from happening and I don't really know any openings that I can do that I would actually enjoy playing.
It seems the only correct response to cloak banshee/hellion is to play 3CC but I find this incredibly boring and void of much skill. Please anyone help me out with TvT!!!!
Cloak banshees are not gambly. With good micro you can almost always deal damage, the 1-1-1 opener allows you to defend all other aggression if you react properly as well as respond with tank pushes versus greedy/marine openers. You can stay aggressive in the midgame with tank pushes or multiple banshees attacking simultaneously.
Other options are to go 15 gas or normal reaper expo and transition straight to bio, or gas first raven.
On December 15 2013 12:30 Fhiz wrote: I sniffed around (but couldn't find) for the answer to the question "what time is good to scan for hive?" I know it was answered a little bit ago but like i said i couldnt find it.
Since zergs get hive much later than they used to now, scouting it is more based on what's happening in the game than a specific timing. If you gave the zerg some time to breath or they've been on 4+ bases for a while, you should start checking for hive. If you're trading with them alot and they have a good amount of mutas/banelings then it's safe to assume they don't have hive or can't afford to transition with it.
EPT
