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On December 17 2013 23:53 ZappTheRipper wrote:
Hey guys!
I'm desperate here. I'm struggling against Protoss all the time especially in the late game. Recently I finally learned to hold most of the early aggression, but the mid-late game is a mess, since recently I encounter more and more of the chargelot+archon+templar composition. I'm a bio-player in TvP, and when I see the templar transition, I immediately start churning out ghosts but it doesn't make a dent... it is extremely hard to micro them and most of them dies before they can land either the emp or the snipe (when there's a lot archon, it's more emp). Overall, in the late game my army dies without any significant damage done to the protoss army. I try to snipe down expos, but after a while there's too many cannon and by the time I get passed them, the full army is there. The worst thing is, that in these cases I suffer a lot of damage, because there's no way to run away from chargelots. (yeah, medivac pick ups should work, but that's quite hard in the heat of the moment, and there's such a tiny time window, that I usually end up with 2-3 surviving medivacs, and the rest of my army is completely dead). What unit composition with what strategy is the choice in mid/late game when the toss goes zealot/archon/templar plus extra?
If you have great Marine/Maurauder control and multitasking, you can honestly just skip Ghosts productions for a really long time. Instead, just focus on doom-dropping/attackin everywerhe at once. Its definitely a much more fun style to play than the Ghost-deathball thing, and I personally also feel better this style than with Ghosts.
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On December 18 2013 01:56 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 23:53 ZappTheRipper wrote:
Hey guys!
I'm desperate here. I'm struggling against Protoss all the time especially in the late game. Recently I finally learned to hold most of the early aggression, but the mid-late game is a mess, since recently I encounter more and more of the chargelot+archon+templar composition. I'm a bio-player in TvP, and when I see the templar transition, I immediately start churning out ghosts but it doesn't make a dent... it is extremely hard to micro them and most of them dies before they can land either the emp or the snipe (when there's a lot archon, it's more emp). Overall, in the late game my army dies without any significant damage done to the protoss army. I try to snipe down expos, but after a while there's too many cannon and by the time I get passed them, the full army is there. The worst thing is, that in these cases I suffer a lot of damage, because there's no way to run away from chargelots. (yeah, medivac pick ups should work, but that's quite hard in the heat of the moment, and there's such a tiny time window, that I usually end up with 2-3 surviving medivacs, and the rest of my army is completely dead). What unit composition with what strategy is the choice in mid/late game when the toss goes zealot/archon/templar plus extra? If you have great Marine/Maurauder control and multitasking, you can honestly just skip Ghosts productions for a really long time. Instead, just focus on doom-dropping/attackin everywerhe at once. Its definitely a much more fun style to play than the Ghost-deathball thing, and I personally also feel better this style than with Ghosts.
This is a great advice! Thinking back the games I played, I only do tiny drops, here and there, tops 2 medivacs which is easly shut down by a couple of cannons. In fact, it is harder to pull back for protoss within his own base than to engage on relatively clear ground, since his own building can help to my troops. What I noticed here is that if I engage on the skirts of the Toss base, and then pull back after some losses, I have no time to resupply my army in time. But aiming for a bunch of GW instead of trying to break expos sounds like the way to go.
As a side-note I think that Protoss micro is really, really too easy compared to Terran and that gives quite a lot of frustration.
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On December 18 2013 02:38 ZappTheRipper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 01:56 Hider wrote:On December 17 2013 23:53 ZappTheRipper wrote:
Hey guys!
I'm desperate here. I'm struggling against Protoss all the time especially in the late game. Recently I finally learned to hold most of the early aggression, but the mid-late game is a mess, since recently I encounter more and more of the chargelot+archon+templar composition. I'm a bio-player in TvP, and when I see the templar transition, I immediately start churning out ghosts but it doesn't make a dent... it is extremely hard to micro them and most of them dies before they can land either the emp or the snipe (when there's a lot archon, it's more emp). Overall, in the late game my army dies without any significant damage done to the protoss army. I try to snipe down expos, but after a while there's too many cannon and by the time I get passed them, the full army is there. The worst thing is, that in these cases I suffer a lot of damage, because there's no way to run away from chargelots. (yeah, medivac pick ups should work, but that's quite hard in the heat of the moment, and there's such a tiny time window, that I usually end up with 2-3 surviving medivacs, and the rest of my army is completely dead). What unit composition with what strategy is the choice in mid/late game when the toss goes zealot/archon/templar plus extra? If you have great Marine/Maurauder control and multitasking, you can honestly just skip Ghosts productions for a really long time. Instead, just focus on doom-dropping/attackin everywerhe at once. Its definitely a much more fun style to play than the Ghost-deathball thing, and I personally also feel better this style than with Ghosts. This is a great advice! Thinking back the games I played, I only do tiny drops, here and there, tops 2 medivacs which is easly shut down by a couple of cannons. In fact, it is harder to pull back for protoss within his own base than to engage on relatively clear ground, since his own building can help to my troops. What I noticed here is that if I engage on the skirts of the Toss base, and then pull back after some losses, I have no time to resupply my army in time. But aiming for a bunch of GW instead of trying to break expos sounds like the way to go. As a side-note I think that Protoss micro is really, really too easy compared to Terran and that gives quite a lot of frustration.
Yeh I experienced the same thing early HOTS. During the 10-14 minute mark I would try to make these "small drops" and afterwards transition into Ghosts. It worked early HOTS, but then protosses (master league) figured it out, and afterwards it just went into deathball dancing mode (which I typically lost).
However, now I just play much much more aggressively w/ the drops, and I littereally never stop dropping. The ghost-transitioning is really hurting you if you want to play drop-style so I reommend to just delay that for as long as possible. If you can keep protoss under 170 supply, then you can trade somewhat decently with pure bio vs a HT/Archon/Collosus composition (with good micro).
But yeh, the important thing is to seek the army-trades all the time and abuse your mobility to obtain a better economy so you can afford to trade (slightly) inefficient.
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United States79 Posts
TvZ question
What do you do when you're going for hellion banshee (Taeja's build Day9 did a daily on) and you scout 2 base muta? I instantly cancelled my banshee and dropped my 3rd and ebay, but still just get rolled. It's probably because I have shittier control and decision making though, but if someone could rip me apart on this replay it'd be nice
http://drop.sc/368366
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Hello.
Just a little question. Don't you feel last time that TvP got tougher? I used to be good at this MU, but now I feel very uncomfortable. Maybe I have lost the sense of this MU, but maybe it has changed. Didn't you feel any changes comparing to how it was 2-3 month ago?
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On December 18 2013 04:47 mortales wrote:
Hello.
Just a little question. Don't you feel last time that TvP got tougher? I used to be good at this MU, but now I feel very uncomfortable. Maybe I have lost the sense of this MU, but maybe it has changed. Didn't you feel any changes comparing to how it was 2-3 month ago?
I dunno about other leagues but most the protosses I play in gold all do the same shit
Open Zealot/stalker/msc pressure
(optional oracle harrass)
skip collosus, mass chargelot with ht/archon
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On December 18 2013 02:38 ZappTheRipper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 01:56 Hider wrote:On December 17 2013 23:53 ZappTheRipper wrote:
Hey guys!
I'm desperate here. I'm struggling against Protoss all the time especially in the late game. Recently I finally learned to hold most of the early aggression, but the mid-late game is a mess, since recently I encounter more and more of the chargelot+archon+templar composition. I'm a bio-player in TvP, and when I see the templar transition, I immediately start churning out ghosts but it doesn't make a dent... it is extremely hard to micro them and most of them dies before they can land either the emp or the snipe (when there's a lot archon, it's more emp). Overall, in the late game my army dies without any significant damage done to the protoss army. I try to snipe down expos, but after a while there's too many cannon and by the time I get passed them, the full army is there. The worst thing is, that in these cases I suffer a lot of damage, because there's no way to run away from chargelots. (yeah, medivac pick ups should work, but that's quite hard in the heat of the moment, and there's such a tiny time window, that I usually end up with 2-3 surviving medivacs, and the rest of my army is completely dead). What unit composition with what strategy is the choice in mid/late game when the toss goes zealot/archon/templar plus extra? If you have great Marine/Maurauder control and multitasking, you can honestly just skip Ghosts productions for a really long time. Instead, just focus on doom-dropping/attackin everywerhe at once. Its definitely a much more fun style to play than the Ghost-deathball thing, and I personally also feel better this style than with Ghosts. This is a great advice! Thinking back the games I played, I only do tiny drops, here and there, tops 2 medivacs which is easly shut down by a couple of cannons. In fact, it is harder to pull back for protoss within his own base than to engage on relatively clear ground, since his own building can help to my troops. What I noticed here is that if I engage on the skirts of the Toss base, and then pull back after some losses, I have no time to resupply my army in time. But aiming for a bunch of GW instead of trying to break expos sounds like the way to go. As a side-note I think that Protoss micro is really, really too easy compared to Terran and that gives quite a lot of frustration.
just a little tip from my personal experience: When dropping you should always use atleast 2medivacs worth of units. 1 medivac is just too easy to defend with warp ins. 2-3 will force him to defend with units from his army + u can snipe buildings really fast and get out.
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On December 18 2013 08:13 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 02:38 ZappTheRipper wrote:On December 18 2013 01:56 Hider wrote:On December 17 2013 23:53 ZappTheRipper wrote:
Hey guys!
I'm desperate here. I'm struggling against Protoss all the time especially in the late game. Recently I finally learned to hold most of the early aggression, but the mid-late game is a mess, since recently I encounter more and more of the chargelot+archon+templar composition. I'm a bio-player in TvP, and when I see the templar transition, I immediately start churning out ghosts but it doesn't make a dent... it is extremely hard to micro them and most of them dies before they can land either the emp or the snipe (when there's a lot archon, it's more emp). Overall, in the late game my army dies without any significant damage done to the protoss army. I try to snipe down expos, but after a while there's too many cannon and by the time I get passed them, the full army is there. The worst thing is, that in these cases I suffer a lot of damage, because there's no way to run away from chargelots. (yeah, medivac pick ups should work, but that's quite hard in the heat of the moment, and there's such a tiny time window, that I usually end up with 2-3 surviving medivacs, and the rest of my army is completely dead). What unit composition with what strategy is the choice in mid/late game when the toss goes zealot/archon/templar plus extra? If you have great Marine/Maurauder control and multitasking, you can honestly just skip Ghosts productions for a really long time. Instead, just focus on doom-dropping/attackin everywerhe at once. Its definitely a much more fun style to play than the Ghost-deathball thing, and I personally also feel better this style than with Ghosts. This is a great advice! Thinking back the games I played, I only do tiny drops, here and there, tops 2 medivacs which is easly shut down by a couple of cannons. In fact, it is harder to pull back for protoss within his own base than to engage on relatively clear ground, since his own building can help to my troops. What I noticed here is that if I engage on the skirts of the Toss base, and then pull back after some losses, I have no time to resupply my army in time. But aiming for a bunch of GW instead of trying to break expos sounds like the way to go. As a side-note I think that Protoss micro is really, really too easy compared to Terran and that gives quite a lot of frustration. just a little tip from my personal experience: When dropping you should always use atleast 2medivacs worth of units. 1 medivac is just too easy to defend with warp ins. 2-3 will force him to defend with units from his army + u can snipe buildings really fast and get out.
I wouldn't use that as a general rule. There are many instances where dropping just one medivac is pretty good. That is especially relevant when you to triple-pronged attacks or in situations where your army value is pretty low.
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On that note, when you do, do a semi doom drop on the toss what buildings should you go for. Or rather what would you prioritize when you get to that later mid game/ late game scenario?
Also, I have been seeing and hearing a lot about these all in scv pulls, what and when exactly should I do them? What are they there for? I understand to soak up a lot of the damage but like what do I do with them just a move?
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Building priorities depend on how much time you have vs how fast you can kill stuff. If you have all day, the cyber core + tech is good. For example, snipe twilight, then hit cyber core. They will have to remake one at a time which takes forever. Same applies with templar archives, then twilight.
If you have time for only one building, templar archives, robo or forges are your best bet.
After that pylons are actually really good especially if you need to run away from his army. You can scoot and target shoot pylon after pylon as you make your way to the edge of the base and pick up. When you are multi dropping and really taxing the opponents multitasking, hitting pylons and picking up to the other side of the base for more pylons over and over again at multiple locations can snowball extremely fast.
Not much to scv pulls, just grab the boys and A-move. They are meant to soak up zealots and colo fire, not storms. Just make sure they can get to the front if not already leading the charge. If you lead with them they can get ff-ed however, which is not good.
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Another thing that has recently clicked in my mind is the potential for mines in TvP vs Chargelot/Archons/HTs. Mix in with some Ghosts, and that should be a pretty potent attack force. Of course you will still need great control, kiting and emps.
Another essential thing would be the spacing of the mines. Because unlike in TvZ, where Zergs send just one or two lings to search and soak mine shots, Protoss attacks with their whole chargelot deathball, unless they send individual zeals to scout. But they never do that if they're about to attack.
Whether to kill the observer or not is something I'm considering. Let's say you kill the observer, zeals in turn run over them and charge directly to your MMM army. Some splash damage can affect you from this too.
If you don't kill the obs, what happens is that the zeals spend their charge on the mine, which could possibly cause a full surround and greater splash damage against the toss.
Though whether or not to kill the obs both have their pros and cons. It's really dependent on you.
You could leave the obs until the zeals spend their charge on the mines and take a few shots, then snipe obs to cloak ghost. This is more beneficial once HTs and storms come into play.
I don't really have enough replays yet to show this off, but try it out if you're having difficulty with the Chargelot/Archon comp.
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On December 18 2013 18:59 `dunedain wrote:
Another thing that has recently clicked in my mind is the potential for mines in TvP vs Chargelot/Archons/HTs. Mix in with some Ghosts, and that should be a pretty potent attack force. Of course you will still need great control, kiting and emps.
Another essential thing would be the spacing of the mines. Because unlike in TvZ, where Zergs send just one or two lings to search and soak mine shots, Protoss attacks with their whole chargelot deathball, unless they send individual zeals to scout. But they never do that if they're about to attack.
Whether to kill the observer or not is something I'm considering. Let's say you kill the observer, zeals in turn run over them and charge directly to your MMM army. Some splash damage can affect you from this too.
If you don't kill the obs, what happens is that the zeals spend their charge on the mine, which could possibly cause a full surround and greater splash damage against the toss.
Though whether or not to kill the obs both have their pros and cons. It's really dependent on you.
You could leave the obs until the zeals spend their charge on the mines and take a few shots, then snipe obs to cloak ghost. This is more beneficial once HTs and storms come into play.
I don't really have enough replays yet to show this off, but try it out if you're having difficulty with the Chargelot/Archon comp.
This is something that jjakji does a lot and it works very well. If he scouts a chargelot/archon composition with his 10 minute poke/harass, he will land his scouting factory and start producing widow mines out of it. He deploys them outside of the protoss natural, and thus makes it very hard for the protoss player to establish a third base.
I will try to remember this thread and get a VoD for the next time he does this!
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Are there any Terrans who are the equivalent of TangSC's Zerg? Also do they have guides/stream videos.
Aside from the guide that someone posted me a couple of pages ago (thanks), most of the guides I see just talk about boring, passive macro. If there is a good Terran who advocates timing attacks and hyper-aggressive plays -> regular transitions then please refer me to him.
I learn much better like this.
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On December 18 2013 22:21 TheManInBlack wrote:
Are there any Terrans who are the equivalent of TangSC's Zerg? Also do they have guides/stream videos.
Aside from the guide that someone posted me a couple of pages ago (thanks), most of the guides I see just talk about boring, passive macro. If there is a good Terran who advocates timing attacks and hyper-aggressive plays -> regular transitions then please refer me to him.
I learn much better like this.
I would suggest looking for Maru VoDs. There's not a lot of Terrans that have a great deal of success with allins and hyper-aggression because outside of TvT, frankly, it's just not as good. Polt also does some interesting aggressive tactics versus Zerg with mixed results.
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On December 18 2013 03:53 DaveSprite wrote:TvZ question What do you do when you're going for hellion banshee (Taeja's build Day9 did a daily on) and you scout 2 base muta? I instantly cancelled my banshee and dropped my 3rd and ebay, but still just get rolled. It's probably because I have shittier control and decision making though, but if someone could rip me apart on this replay it'd be nice http://drop.sc/368366
So what you have to note in this replay is that your opponent is going for a cheese.
Its not only 2 hatch mutas, its 2 hatch 6 drones on minerals per base mutas. This would come earlier than any pro would have to deal with this build.
As your game sense improves you will see instantly that this early mutas can only be attained if he cuts out everything else.- in, at 10:00 his mutas pop you are 5 workers and a command center ahead. You also have an upgrade started while your opponent is just starting his evo chambers.
Up to the point where you decide to attack and expand at the same time I would say you are at a significant advantage.
Personally until you get really good, i would recommend making your third into a planetary. You can make a macro orbital, but then just make another and turn it into a planetary with 3 turrets. This will make it incredibly cost inneficient if not impossible for the zerg to kill it.
You decide to attack without combat shield, theres no reason for this attack. You handled the muta *cheese* without taking any losses and are ahead in every way possible, then you throw away this advantage. Just focus on macro and maybe a timing attack
I would also make a second factory, and have constant widow mine production. This unit is super efficient vs zerg. Once you have 6 + it becomes unbelievably difficult to engage you, as you can just stim and retreat over your minefield. This is also much easier than marine splitting.
You should know that your macro can be improved by a lot. However your opponent is just as bad at it. Just relax a little.
A very neat trick is to park a loaded medivac near the top edge of the map. If you see mutas near your base drop - that will pull him back and give you time.
Dont worry about overmaking turrets and just take it a little slower and focus on mechanics more.
you also want to make turrets inside your mineral line from base 3 onwards. This will protect the planetary vs mutas from all sides.
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What do you think is more important in TvP?
a) Micro
b) Macro
I am aroud mid level in Master League and have a winrate of 60%+ for both TvT and TvZ but struggle to achieve even 50% at TvP. When I win a TvP it's usually when I defend an allin of Protoss. I can't really outplay them in a lategame.
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United States79 Posts
On December 18 2013 22:54 weikor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 03:53 DaveSprite wrote:TvZ question What do you do when you're going for hellion banshee (Taeja's build Day9 did a daily on) and you scout 2 base muta? I instantly cancelled my banshee and dropped my 3rd and ebay, but still just get rolled. It's probably because I have shittier control and decision making though, but if someone could rip me apart on this replay it'd be nice http://drop.sc/368366 So what you have to note in this replay is that your opponent is going for a cheese. Its not only 2 hatch mutas, its 2 hatch 6 drones on minerals per base mutas. This would come earlier than any pro would have to deal with this build. As your game sense improves you will see instantly that this early mutas can only be attained if he cuts out everything else.- in, at 10:00 his mutas pop you are 5 workers and a command center ahead. You also have an upgrade started while your opponent is just starting his evo chambers. Up to the point where you decide to attack and expand at the same time I would say you are at a significant advantage. Personally until you get really good, i would recommend making your third into a planetary. You can make a macro orbital, but then just make another and turn it into a planetary with 3 turrets. This will make it incredibly cost inneficient if not impossible for the zerg to kill it. You decide to attack without combat shield, theres no reason for this attack. You handled the muta *cheese* without taking any losses and are ahead in every way possible, then you throw away this advantage. Just focus on macro and maybe a timing attack I would also make a second factory, and have constant widow mine production. This unit is super efficient vs zerg. Once you have 6 + it becomes unbelievably difficult to engage you, as you can just stim and retreat over your minefield. This is also much easier than marine splitting. You should know that your macro can be improved by a lot. However your opponent is just as bad at it. Just relax a little. A very neat trick is to park a loaded medivac near the top edge of the map. If you see mutas near your base drop - that will pull him back and give you time. Dont worry about overmaking turrets and just take it a little slower and focus on mechanics more. you also want to make turrets inside your mineral line from base 3 onwards. This will protect the planetary vs mutas from all sides.
Thanks, I pushed out because I felt incredibly awkward being stuck in my bases and almost every time I leave a Z alone after 10 min I get rolled. Force of habit I guess. My question though is the cancelling of the banshee and making the 3rd and ebay the correct choice when I see that coming?
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On December 17 2013 12:24 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:19 darthfoley wrote:
Can someone give me a general counter to 12/12 2 rax reaper in TvT? I can usually defend the 6 or so reapers from doing crippling direct econ damage, but they contain me in one base too long. By the time I can safely expand, I usually get pushed with stimmed medivac marines and die.
I'm platinum level more or less. Didn't get to play very much in my first semester in college so i'm woefully behind the metagame.
Tell me if this is too basic a question/whether you need me to provide a replay. You can hold fine with a 15-gas expand or a gas-first build. Basic technique is to delay with Marines on typical high ground entry points until the Hellions start coming out. Hellions beat Reapers, especially with Marine backup. If I scout 2-rax Reaper, I generally go: 12 Barracks 15 Refinery * produce continuous Marines @400 min CC @100 gas Factory Get a Reactor on the Barracks either when you get a lucky Reaper kill or two (he has to delay further), or when you scout he's pulled off committing to Reapers. Careful micro will be required, but it's eminently holdable.
Yea i thought hellions would be the most useful counter. Thanks for the help 
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On December 19 2013 01:16 TurboMaN wrote:
What do you think is more important in TvP?
a) Micro
b) Macro
I am aroud mid level in Master League and have a winrate of 60%+ for both TvT and TvZ but struggle to achieve even 50% at TvP. When I win a TvP it's usually when I defend an allin of Protoss. I can't really outplay them in a lategame.
Macro is just all round important, but for me at least TvZ requires multitasking, TvT positioning, TvP micro
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what maps are you guys using this season?
what in the hell are you doing on alterzim in tvp???
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EPT
