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On December 19 2013 06:05 nath wrote:
what maps are you guys using this season?
what in the hell are you doing on alterzim in tvp???
I have Alterzim veto'd. The long attack distance favors both Zerg and Protoss imo. Extremely long reinforcement time for Terran, Zerg units are fast and P have warp ins. Since terran go bio most the time it really dulls the effect of our timings, a Zerg and Protoss both have the advantage of being able to tech up more easily.
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Holy crap. Now even Demuslim is raging against protoss on his stream. Demuslim of all people who has always been super calm before.
It's kind of funny because just before he went on his rant he was talking about how Avilo shouldn't be raging about protoss on stream.
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I just figure every second spent QQing about protoss OP is another second not spent on finding ways to make P our bitch.
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On December 19 2013 02:48 DaveSprite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 22:54 weikor wrote:On December 18 2013 03:53 DaveSprite wrote:TvZ question What do you do when you're going for hellion banshee (Taeja's build Day9 did a daily on) and you scout 2 base muta? I instantly cancelled my banshee and dropped my 3rd and ebay, but still just get rolled. It's probably because I have shittier control and decision making though, but if someone could rip me apart on this replay it'd be nice http://drop.sc/368366 So what you have to note in this replay is that your opponent is going for a cheese. Its not only 2 hatch mutas, its 2 hatch 6 drones on minerals per base mutas. This would come earlier than any pro would have to deal with this build. As your game sense improves you will see instantly that this early mutas can only be attained if he cuts out everything else.- in, at 10:00 his mutas pop you are 5 workers and a command center ahead. You also have an upgrade started while your opponent is just starting his evo chambers. Up to the point where you decide to attack and expand at the same time I would say you are at a significant advantage. Personally until you get really good, i would recommend making your third into a planetary. You can make a macro orbital, but then just make another and turn it into a planetary with 3 turrets. This will make it incredibly cost inneficient if not impossible for the zerg to kill it. You decide to attack without combat shield, theres no reason for this attack. You handled the muta *cheese* without taking any losses and are ahead in every way possible, then you throw away this advantage. Just focus on macro and maybe a timing attack I would also make a second factory, and have constant widow mine production. This unit is super efficient vs zerg. Once you have 6 + it becomes unbelievably difficult to engage you, as you can just stim and retreat over your minefield. This is also much easier than marine splitting. You should know that your macro can be improved by a lot. However your opponent is just as bad at it. Just relax a little. A very neat trick is to park a loaded medivac near the top edge of the map. If you see mutas near your base drop - that will pull him back and give you time. Dont worry about overmaking turrets and just take it a little slower and focus on mechanics more. you also want to make turrets inside your mineral line from base 3 onwards. This will protect the planetary vs mutas from all sides. Thanks, I pushed out because I felt incredibly awkward being stuck in my bases and almost every time I leave a Z alone after 10 min I get rolled. Force of habit I guess. My question though is the cancelling of the banshee and making the 3rd and ebay the correct choice when I see that coming?
Well, without going into too much detail. Im no expert in the banshee hellion strategy, however abandoning non air attacking units vs air unit rush seems solid.
The third command center is one choice if you want to drag out the game. Personally I might have responded with throwing down an 1 to 2 extra barracks instead and an extra factory. Then focus on upgrades and just kill the zerg as his economy is screwed already. 2|2 Marines slaughter any zerg units with 0|1. And a zerg will find it impossible to tech to hive with the pressure you can put on.
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Banshee hellion might work against 2 base muta somehow, however it does sound like a pretty hard counter.
I think you need to set yourself a goal later in the game where you know you can beat a zerg. Right now you sound like, whatever I do he will have more later and kill me.
I can tell you that upgraded marines and tons of mines dont need godly micro to beat most zergs on the ladder.Just focus on macro and expand at reasonable times. Make sure you get planetaries and burrow your mines defensively while waiting to build up. When you move out always scan ahead one to two areas to see when you need to siege. *this is where 3 OBs are good*.
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Whats a good T v T opener these days. All i see in Plat is all in timings that go like banshees/tanks/marine. Maybe not all in but pretty hard harass early game.
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Canada8160 Posts
On December 19 2013 14:21 TerranMan wrote:
Whats a good T v T opener these days. All i see in Plat is all in timings that go like banshees/tanks/marine. Maybe not all in but pretty hard harass early game.
I still 1 rax expand, and it works flawlessly
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On December 19 2013 14:56 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 14:21 TerranMan wrote:
Whats a good T v T opener these days. All i see in Plat is all in timings that go like banshees/tanks/marine. Maybe not all in but pretty hard harass early game. I still 1 rax expand, and it works flawlessly
The absolute safest middle of the road build is similar to a 1 rax expand but right before you would normally throw down the CC, just throw down 2 gas. You still get your CC relatively quickly and before your factory before but your tanks and starport come out faster. Your tech will be delayed by about the time it takes to walk across the map, so you will be able to match a 1-1-1 all in and have an expo (in base if you want keep things safe). Basically it is right between a FE and a 1-1-1. This build was used in gsl tvts when one base 1-1-1 seemed like the strongest builds (very similar to the current meta game)
also the forgg build can hold 1-1-1 all in but you have to see it coming and meet the all-in before it seiges you up.
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Yes, 1 rax expand into defensive 1-1-1 works, or gas expand with a reactor on barracks and a faster fact on shorter rush distances.
Make sure you prioritize getting your tank and then viking out.
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I'm looking for a good tank opening in TvZ,
Preferably after 4/6 hellions 
Anybody has something useful for me?
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Ive been trying to play with hellbats instead of WM, and I must say its working out pretty well. It might be because so many zergs these days are going so heavy on the lings. Im getting run over by huge amounts of lings/blings in the midgame when I play WM so I thought I would try hellbats and I feel im trading much more efficient. Hellbats reduce the ling numbers greatly and it forces the zerg to really hit those injects to keep up. I find that its really important to have atleast 1 rax making marauders all the time to reduce the impact of banelings.
Anyone else trying hellbats instead of WM, and how is that going for you?
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1 rax expand is bad in TvT and you should never do that. You instant lose to 888, 11/11, double rax reaper of all kind and you are vulnerable to tank allin because of late gaz, so you won't have tanks in time.
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On December 19 2013 20:30 Fjodorov wrote:
Ive been trying to play with hellbats instead of WM, and I must say its working out pretty well. It might be because so many zergs these days are going so heavy on the lings. Im getting run over by huge amounts of lings/blings in the midgame when I play WM so I thought I would try hellbats and I feel im trading much more efficient. Hellbats reduce the ling numbers greatly and it forces the zerg to really hit those injects to keep up. I find that its really important to have atleast 1 rax making marauders all the time to reduce the impact of banelings.
Anyone else trying hellbats instead of WM, and how is that going for you?
I don't know what is your league but in mine (top diamond) zergs are crushing hellbat bio composition with a large amount of baneling. The problem with hellbat mixing with bio is that their hard counter is basically the same (mass baneling). Mass lings shouldn't be a problem when you have good macro because marines/medivac trade very well with speedlings in general.
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On December 19 2013 21:21 Faust852 wrote:
1 rax expand is bad in TvT and you should never do that. You instant lose to 888, 11/11, double rax reaper of all kind and you are vulnerable to tank allin because of late gaz, so you won't have tanks in time.
Then CC first is also bad because you instant lose to everything also right?
You should tell Taeja not to do it.
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On December 19 2013 21:44 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 21:21 Faust852 wrote:
1 rax expand is bad in TvT and you should never do that. You instant lose to 888, 11/11, double rax reaper of all kind and you are vulnerable to tank allin because of late gaz, so you won't have tanks in time. Then CC first is also bad because you instant lose to everything also right? You should tell Taeja not to do it.
If you want to gamble economically, CC first is better than rax expand, since you die from the same things. +CC is still a huge gamble and works only on prepared match where you can be pretty sure you won't be cheesed, if you are a more casual players, playing only on ladder, why would you do gamble macro build where playing safer will grant you much more win ?
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On December 19 2013 11:06 B-rye88 wrote:
I just figure every second spent QQing about protoss OP is another second not spent on finding ways to make P our bitch.
If you've got a consistent way to make that happen that doesn't involve magically becoming Taeja or Innovation, I am all ears.
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On December 19 2013 22:48 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 11:06 B-rye88 wrote:
I just figure every second spent QQing about protoss OP is another second not spent on finding ways to make P our bitch. If you've got a consistent way to make that happen that doesn't involve magically becoming Taeja or Innovation, I am all ears.
I'm all ears to, tvp makes me wanna demolish my sc2 disk sometimes.
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On December 19 2013 20:22 SC2Toastie wrote:I'm looking for a good tank opening in TvZ, Preferably after 4/6 hellions Anybody has something useful for me?
If you want to get tanks after hellions I suggest these builds, but for the most part if you want hellions and tanks, it transitions into mech imo.
The usual reasons for early tanks in TvZ are to defend early aggression. For this you usually want tanks before hellions. If you just want takes for latter AEO after you macro and map control are running (after hellions) I suggest starting with the stim medevac timing and only after you swap SP and Fac start making tanks.
1. marine hellion medevac poke:
there are a lot of builds that converge to this point, but here is one that I've seen be pretty effective at denying thirds.
reaper expo into reactor hellion: double reaper 4-6 hellion
-stim on techlab after you swap reactor for factory (second gas after factory starts)
-2nd and 3rd rax ASAP (before 3rd CC)
-starport after stim starts (you can squeeze in ebay if you get extra gas, at least 3)
-swap starport onto factory reactor, build TL with factory
-START third before you move out
***Pick up two medivacs worth of marines with your first two medivacs (should be most of your marines) and join up with your hellions. Have fun killing any early thirds and remember you can pick up if things get #dicey.
-Begin heavy marine tank production
1. Blue Flam Hellion harass:
This is mostly a mech opener but I think bomber has shown us that it can transition weirdly into bio
If you want to try bio + hellbat + thor its not a bad opener to get both tanks and hellions out.
2. CC First: hellion one marauder tank
CC first into rax gas. reactor hellion(only 2-4) + TL on rax just like normal, get a single marauder if you want to be safe agains roach rush, then swap factory and make tanks (you do not have time for stim so don't start it). You don't need a 2nd gas to get the tank out if you want to power up to 3CC and a lot of rax but it will delay stim for a little bit so stim timings with medivacs come later. Strongly suggest this route. Get all your gases after CC and raxes are down and start stim ebays starport ect...
If you want faster stim faster get 2nd gas as factory is building, and your 3rd cc will be delayed. If going mech put down a factory on empty reactor, if going bio put down an extra rax on now empty reactor and start TL -> stim with initial rax. Add third rax 3rd CC starport ebays ect...
3 CC into marine tank:
Basic CC first into factory, make the reactor on the rax as usual but don't switch it with factory, just pump out marines and make a few tanks out of factory. This build is safest way to play 3CC imo, but you don't have map control. You can keep up with zerg because your third will be built before theirs unless they went three hatch before pool (seems less common these days).
-CC first, bunker at natural
-factory
-3rd CC (before reactor and 2nd gas)
-then 2ng gas
-start first tank asap to hold roach or baneling busts
-then reactor (rax will be idle so feel free to make a few marines before reactor)
-double rax, double gas, double ebays and starport after tank is started and minerals allow, you minerals will sky rocket b.c of third CC so get all your gas earlier than you think.
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It's not so much about figuring them out. They are pretty much figured out. It's more an issue of guessing correctly what they are going to do. The beginning phases especially is a big guessing game. Even if you figured out what they are going to do, say blink stalker all in, you still have to guess exactly where the blink stalkers will be coming from each time.
Hellbats are nice against zerg if you want to do a snipe on his 3rd, but they are too expensive to sustain their production, not to mention mutas will always be coming.
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mutas are not a deterrent of hellbat production, nor are they too expensive to continually produce, NOR are hellbats a good way to deny a zergs third base. Not sure where you are going with any of that.
I don't even know what you are talking about with the guessing game bit.
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EPT
