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On December 12 2013 08:05 nightshark wrote: When going CC first I had a zerg do something like a 10 pool on me, which halted both my rax and CC production (both part of my wall), because zerglings killed the SCVs working on them. I pulled SCVs to repair the depot and put new SCVs in to finish the rax and CC.
Now Zerg expanded at my natural so I put a tech lab down on my factory rather than swapping for hellions. Before my siege tank came out zerg had built spines at my natural and busted down my depot with lings + spines. I tried to repair with SCVs but they just got killed and he broke through just as my siege tank was coming out. I pulled SCVs to repair the tank but it was too late.
How would you deal with this :/
Build a Bunker the second you see the spines building. If you can, build it in range of the spines, so your marines can shoot at them. If you can't, just build it behind the wall, maybe with another 1-2 depots behind the one in the wall, to have a second line wall incase the front depot falls. With this you stall him until your tank gets out (having some repair SCVs there certainly). While adding more tanks I prefer to even tech further up to Banshees with cloak to go wreck his main.
On December 12 2013 08:05 nightshark wrote: When going CC first I had a zerg do something like a 10 pool on me, which halted both my rax and CC production (both part of my wall), because zerglings killed the SCVs working on them. I pulled SCVs to repair the depot and put new SCVs in to finish the rax and CC.
Now Zerg expanded at my natural so I put a tech lab down on my factory rather than swapping for hellions. Before my siege tank came out zerg had built spines at my natural and busted down my depot with lings + spines. I tried to repair with SCVs but they just got killed and he broke through just as my siege tank was coming out. I pulled SCVs to repair the tank but it was too late.
How would you deal with this :/
If they expand at your natural, overcommit to the defense with bunkers etc etc....
When you go to push, you will have a high ground advantage for tanks, their spines will be useless and cannot reinforce without running all the way across the map instead of just from 2 hatcheries.
Basically, overcomit and defend, and your push will kill them after pretty easily.
On December 12 2013 08:05 nightshark wrote: When going CC first I had a zerg do something like a 10 pool on me, which halted both my rax and CC production (both part of my wall), because zerglings killed the SCVs working on them. I pulled SCVs to repair the depot and put new SCVs in to finish the rax and CC.
Now Zerg expanded at my natural so I put a tech lab down on my factory rather than swapping for hellions. Before my siege tank came out zerg had built spines at my natural and busted down my depot with lings + spines. I tried to repair with SCVs but they just got killed and he broke through just as my siege tank was coming out. I pulled SCVs to repair the tank but it was too late.
How would you deal with this :/
If they expand at your natural, overcommit to the defense with bunkers etc etc....
When you go to push, you will have a high ground advantage for tanks, their spines will be useless and cannot reinforce without running all the way across the map instead of just from 2 hatcheries.
Basically, overcomit and defend, and your push will kill them after pretty easily.
So basically... SURVIVE, build tanks and I will be probably be ahead by the end of it? Should I build a third in my main during this to further stretch the advantage? Or just focus on getting marines/tanks? I do 3CC build but obviously the moment something like this happens I can no longer follow the BO effectively.
is the consensus on TvP what avilo makes it out to be? is P really that op? just wondering, cause if it is... david kim should really communicate better with the community about that
On December 12 2013 13:18 tshi wrote: is the consensus on TvP what avilo makes it out to be? is P really that op? just wondering, cause if it is... david kim should really communicate better with the community about that
According to Blizzard all the matchups are balanced so all who complain are just whining and need to get better at the game .
On December 12 2013 13:18 tshi wrote: is the consensus on TvP what avilo makes it out to be? is P really that op? just wondering, cause if it is... david kim should really communicate better with the community about that
I don't really follow avilo, so it's hard to say, but from what I understand of him the answer is probably not. I think the general consensus is that early game TvP is a major issue for Terran because Protoss has many different options they can use that each require a different response from the Terran and have the potential to end the game while Terran only has a couple builds that force a response from Protoss and none of them have the potential to end the game short of major mistakes from the Protoss player thanks to the addition of the MsC.
General concensus is that mid game heavily favors Terran, where their mobility from speedvacs allows them to get pretty far ahead in economy and their superior army (since Protoss is only just getting AoE in the mid game) potentially deals lots of damage or win the game outright as the Protoss struggles not to get too far behind. Lots of Protoss player have begun to figure out ways to mitigate this by introducing a more counterattack based style and going for HT instead of Collosi, which are stronger at holding off big pushes from the Terran player. So more and more lately Protoss has been getting into the late game without being as far behind as they used too.
Late game arguably favors Protoss, but moreso due to ease of control (a move t t with a collosi / chargelot / high templar army is much, much easier to control than to defeat) and forgivability (Terran usually has to kill a Protoss army 3+ times to finish a game whereas a Protoss only needs to kill a Terran army once or twice to win the game) than anything else. A lot of Terran players (or at least Taeja and Happy) just rely on not making mistakes and playing a slow, controlled Ghost Viking style that seems to be quite effective in the late game. Big "Doom Drop" counter attacks are also making their way into the metagame, where the Terran player (attempts to) kill all of the Protoss player's production right as the Protoss player engages them, usually retreating to their main ramp / ect to eventually hold off the push, allowing thme to win the game right then and there. So Terrans are developing ways to (more consistently) win in the traditionally Protoss favored late game.
tl:dr I think TvP is evolving a lot right now and while it might slightly favor Protoss, it's mostly because of the vast array of viable openings / all-ins Protoss has and Terran lacks, despite the fact that Terran can, theoretically, scout and deal with all of these openings just fine.
I feel that if they don't touch it there WILL be evolution on the T side. if you open with a factory you can be entirely safe so while all the stuff about the early game options being scary -are- true, it's only assuming that you must reaper and you must fast expand.
the problem is that doesn't lead well into the only currently understood style of lots of medivac aggression in the midgame. this being a problem of the lategame being so difficult on T (viking/ghost period of the game I mean). the difficulty comes from control but also the fact that we need to react to colossus/storm perfectly with our composition where as they can't really come out off balance since what they're countering with their tech is the bio. and taht's always there. (imo, that's how I see the issues right now)
so maybe someone can evolve the matchup in a serious way, more than we've seen since the very beginning (which has really never changed)
mech + ghosts? maybe with widow mines and hellbats you can survive through getting ghosts. I've never seen a style be tried with mech that involved them at all, only timings really, but they help against most of what turns mech into a joke in the lategame of tvp. storm,archon, immortal. the way upgrades are now make air less frightening and ghosts, of course, are nice against air as well.
I scv pull vs every toss opening colsseus, hasnt failed me yet. Hit BEFORE storm with 2-1 upps and around 7 vikings from 2 starports, 3 bases Too bad so many tosses open 1 base or templars these days...
On December 12 2013 13:18 tshi wrote: is the consensus on TvP what avilo makes it out to be? is P really that op? just wondering, cause if it is... david kim should really communicate better with the community about that
According to Blizzard all the matchups are balanced so all who complain are just whining and need to get better at the game .
Biggest issue I have with TvP is that they can do shit like go straight to tech because of photon overcharge. A pathetic defense is good enough for the first 10 minutes or so for that reason. That's kinda the case in TvZ as well from the T's part, but at least Zerg has the option to all-in, which is pretty successful against high economic builds when done right.
Terran has shitty all in options which can't be mistaken for anything BUT an all in (SCV pulls... you ain't gonna come back from that). So we have to at least macro up until photon overcharge isn't as much of an issue and during that time Protoss can hit you with a myriad of shit.
TvP however is my favourite matchup. Even if it makes me rage hard. It's a good challenge and there's a lot to learn about it from T's perspective. Playing it from the Protoss side must be kind of boring when you have 1 build and simply don't adapt it because you don't need to.
On December 12 2013 13:18 tshi wrote: is the consensus on TvP what avilo makes it out to be? is P really that op? just wondering, cause if it is... david kim should really communicate better with the community about that
According to Blizzard all the matchups are balanced so all who complain are just whining and need to get better at the game .
Biggest issue I have with TvP is that they can do shit like go straight to tech because of photon overcharge. A pathetic defense is good enough for the first 10 minutes or so for that reason. That's kinda the case in TvZ as well from the T's part, but at least Zerg has the option to all-in, which is pretty successful against high economic builds when done right.
Terran has shitty all in options which can't be mistaken for anything BUT an all in (SCV pulls... you ain't gonna come back from that). So we have to at least macro up until photon overcharge isn't as much of an issue and during that time Protoss can hit you with a myriad of shit.
TvP however is my favourite matchup. Even if it makes me rage hard. It's a good challenge and there's a lot to learn about it from T's perspective. Playing it from the Protoss side must be kind of boring when you have 1 build and simply don't adapt it because you don't need to.
Completely destroying a bio ball with storms and then watching the terran rage quit is perhaps the most satisfying part of playing Protoss.
On December 12 2013 13:18 tshi wrote: is the consensus on TvP what avilo makes it out to be? is P really that op? just wondering, cause if it is... david kim should really communicate better with the community about that
According to Blizzard all the matchups are balanced so all who complain are just whining and need to get better at the game .
Biggest issue I have with TvP is that they can do shit like go straight to tech because of photon overcharge. A pathetic defense is good enough for the first 10 minutes or so for that reason. That's kinda the case in TvZ as well from the T's part, but at least Zerg has the option to all-in, which is pretty successful against high economic builds when done right.
Terran has shitty all in options which can't be mistaken for anything BUT an all in (SCV pulls... you ain't gonna come back from that). So we have to at least macro up until photon overcharge isn't as much of an issue and during that time Protoss can hit you with a myriad of shit.
TvP however is my favourite matchup. Even if it makes me rage hard. It's a good challenge and there's a lot to learn about it from T's perspective. Playing it from the Protoss side must be kind of boring when you have 1 build and simply don't adapt it because you don't need to.
Completely destroying a bio ball with storms and then watching the terran rage quit is perhaps the most satisfying part of playing Protoss.
Do you feel like you've played better than your opponent when a game is decided by this?
On December 12 2013 13:18 tshi wrote: is the consensus on TvP what avilo makes it out to be? is P really that op? just wondering, cause if it is... david kim should really communicate better with the community about that
According to Blizzard all the matchups are balanced so all who complain are just whining and need to get better at the game .
I'm thinking you are at least kinda joking, but in any case Blizz likes to say the game is perfectly balanced then drastically nerf and buff stuff anyway. I remember when the WM got nerfed, they said the game was balanced during the weeks leading up to it then brought out the nerf guns. To be fare, the mech buff was definitely definitely bigger in magnitude than the WM nerf, imo
On December 12 2013 13:18 tshi wrote: is the consensus on TvP what avilo makes it out to be? is P really that op? just wondering, cause if it is... david kim should really communicate better with the community about that
According to Blizzard all the matchups are balanced so all who complain are just whining and need to get better at the game .
I'm thinking you are at least kinda joking, but in any case Blizz likes to say the game is perfectly balanced then drastically nerf and buff stuff anyway. I remember when the WM got nerfed, they said the game was balanced during the weeks leading up to it then brought out the nerf guns. To be fare, the mech buff was definitely definitely bigger in magnitude than the WM nerf, imo
Not all changes are made to balance the game, some are made to make the game more enjoyable to play/watch, or to just shake up a matchup's meta.
On December 13 2013 01:29 Tzam wrote: How do you deal with the two base 8-gate chargelot/storm allin?
Hellbats are good, but you can also go the multiple Bunkers + Medivac backstab route while getting 2-3 Ghosts. All you need is to hold, and if you get even 1 good EMP it can break the attack. Force him to delay moving out by constantly threatening with Medivac drops, but DO NOT LOSE the units. Meanwhile, macro up like crazy, drop the Ghost Academy, and get out a few to deal with the eventual bust. I think Innovation or Taeja did a super sick defense against an allin like that in WCS Season 1 (on Neo Planet S IIRC).
On December 12 2013 13:18 tshi wrote: is the consensus on TvP what avilo makes it out to be? is P really that op? just wondering, cause if it is... david kim should really communicate better with the community about that
According to Blizzard all the matchups are balanced so all who complain are just whining and need to get better at the game .
that is not true, they only watch the highest level of play. for other balance statistics, you cant use ladder data because you will always get ranked to have a 50% winrate, no matter how imbalanced the game is. if toss would win 80% of the games with even matched players, they would just get higher ranks and play harder opponents, but you will never see imbalance in ladder statistics.
EPT
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