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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On December 09 2013 14:23 mygodsnameiskyle wrote:
I wish I had a replay (i played this in 1obs) for this but I will try to explain this situation and let me know what I could have done.
TVP.
My build
10 supply
12 Rax
I build them at the normal wall off. Probe comes up and places a pylon to finish the wall off and a cannon at the bottom (I assume he also built another pylon in my natural. I was able to pull scv's to kill the pylon and finish the wall off but by then the cannon is complete and is killing my marines as they come out. I tried to lift my rax which of course just let them build another pylon on the high ground.
I hate cannon rushes... I just rarely know what to do with them. I know to follow any probes that come into your base to stop that. but when the are on the low ground?? HELP!
Don't do the "normal" wall off against protoss. It's so easy for a mothership core/stalker/zealot pressure to pick off a couple supply depots for free, and later when the rax has add-ons, blink stalker pressure can snipe them just as easy. Tuck your buildings closer to your main command center.
If protoss cannon rush starts below the ramp and it's too late to shut it down completely, all your efforts should be made on denying high ground vision. Protoss could have a million cannons at your natural, but nothing will come out of it if he can't see above your ramp. This means make sure all cannons and pylons cannot be completed in your base, and above all snipe the probe so it can't make any more in your main. Keep a couple units close to (but not too close or else they'll die by low ground cannon fire) the top of your ramp so it's impossible for a probe to sneak through.
They only way you're sure to die is if you let the probe run free to do what it pleases. Deny the probe, and you deny his cheese.
One thing to look out for is the follow up cheese. Often times a protoss will follow up a failed cannon rush with a hidden base with mass void rays or something along those lines. Scout ALL AROUND the map for this possibility while going up to your normal MMM (on one base if he's contained you with cannons on the low ground. But at least he can't outright kill you since no probe can go up your ramp, right????) and you should have no trouble beating him from there.
On December 09 2013 14:38 Fhiz wrote:
You know when you sometimes get in a situation where you are running away with some of your army but are still taking damage is there any micro trick to get it so that your medivacs will still be healing you even while technically on a move command?
It's impossible for medivacs to heal while on move command. You can keep the medivacs on hold position while you stutter away; then they'll heal your units, but then they're move vulnerable to being sniped, and also won't heal your units efficiently.
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On December 09 2013 14:38 Fhiz wrote:
You know when you sometimes get in a situation where you are running away with some of your army but are still taking damage is there any micro trick to get it so that your medivacs will still be healing you even while technically on a move command?
If I'm not completely wrong, Medivacs do heal on attackmove. So move command to run everything away, then choose Medivacs only and attackmove them in the same direction. Just keep in mind that they're a bit faster than unstimmed bio, so they may get too far ahead and not heal anymore then. So you might want to stop and then attackmove them again sometimes.
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On December 09 2013 14:23 mygodsnameiskyle wrote:
I wish I had a replay (i played this in 1obs) for this but I will try to explain this situation and let me know what I could have done.
TVP.
My build
10 supply
12 Rax
I build them at the normal wall off. Probe comes up and places a pylon to finish the wall off and a cannon at the bottom (I assume he also built another pylon in my natural. I was able to pull scv's to kill the pylon and finish the wall off but by then the cannon is complete and is killing my marines as they come out. I tried to lift my rax which of course just let them build another pylon on the high ground.
I hate cannon rushes... I just rarely know what to do with them. I know to follow any probes that come into your base to stop that. but when the are on the low ground?? HELP!
I always do a wall-off at the ramp in TvP too. Your reaction to kill the highground pylon was right. You then just need to make sure he doesn't get further highground vision. Have your marines stand in range of the ramp (to be able to shoot onto it), but not in range of the lowground cannons (as already mentioned above).
I prefer getting a Factory up and Siegetanks out asap, when someone tries to contain me with cannons (I play Mech anyways tbh, but even if I played bio I'd go this way). It works very well against a Hatch with Spinecrawlers at your nat in TvZ, too. As long as you prevent him getting up your ramp, you can tech very hard. As soon as you have a tank you can slowly push him back with the superior range. I usually even go further up in tech and get cloaked Banshees to threaten his main. As he invested so much in the contain, he usually doesn't have much at home. Most opponents ragequit when the first Cloakshee starts pooping on their workers, while the contain is beeing blown apart by tankfire. 
Even if he doesn't leave, you can go into bio now, by adding more Raxes. You have a huge tech advantage, because you already have a Starport for Medivacs, while he should be quite far away from getting any AoE damage out.
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Hey guys, can you look over these replays?
I'm so tilted right now it's not even funny. Here are 2 games that I got back to back and a third one from today, and I have different questions for each.
First: http://drop.sc/367457 (TvZ)
I'm trying to get Taeja's hellion banshee 3cc that Day9 did his recent daily on down. I wanted to learn this build because the OP references hellion banshee builds as the safest way to open TvZ, but here I just flat out get crushed by a classic ling/bling bust. Where did I go wrong, or do I just suck?
Second: http://drop.sc/367458 (TvP)
TvP is my freaking bane right now. I feel like no matter what I do I'm either behind or dead. I know this is a common thing in this thread but I really just die to the wide variety that P can do in the MU, while T has about 3 non-allin choices. This wasn't even a good game of mine because I was severely tilted from the previous game (and I was tilted in that one from the one before that)- if you notice every tiem I try to make a depot I don't have enough for it, so I must have missed a million scvs.
Third: http://drop.sc/367459 (TvT)
I open 12 rax 12 gas into 1 reaper then reactor, and wing every TvT because the MU feels so volatile with the wide variety of strats and counters available. I guess my decision making must be pure shit league because I get stomped this game by 3 banshees.
I know the standard answer to everything is just macro better but I've heard that answer for 3 years and the best I've ever made was plat for every hour of effort put into trying to get a BO down in a build order tester and every cheesy loss. I'm starting to get really discouraged about the game because I don't feel like there's anything I can do to win in any matchup anymore. I've put in so much more effort to the game- real, dedicated effort- than a lot of my (still) plat friends (A Z friend of mine only uses 1 hotkey for bases and the F2 army button- That's it! and in plat) and I always seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel.
I just... I need help.
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On December 05 2013 09:00 deth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 18:54 saaaa wrote:
I have some questions about Mechplay in TvT and i'm interested in your opinions.
1) Do i need fast 3 CC's after Gas First Builds to catch up and play a even game? Or is it possible and viable to build my 3 CC after my additional Factories? I think to delay my 3rd CC is fine, because i can not land and defend it anyways against a bio player.
2) With the new patch and combined mech upgrades. Should i play mech in TvT with double upgrades or still just single?
3) My order of factories, starport, armory and cc is until now this one:
Fac --> Starport --> 2nd CC --> 2nd+3rd Fac--> Armory+Reactor Starport --> 4th+5th Fac and if i had like 8 gases i add two starports and facs against a bio player otherwise just starports.. I tried to copy terran pro player but it seems they dont follow a logic with this. Maybe you guys can help.
4) What are your compositions against bio and mech players? I normally play against a bio player in the early stage up to 12 Hellions for fast defending and then switch into Tank+Hellbat+MediVac (after reaching like 6 Vikings)+Raven. Against a mech player i normally play Hellbat+Tank+Viking+4-6 MediVac (for dropping tanks)+Raven.
5) When should i roll out with my mech army? After a max out with 2/2 - 2/0 Uprades? Or should i play defensive and just be more cost effective the whole game? Or should i just defend so long until i win a big engagement and then attack?
I often have the problem when i want to roll out to early i get catched off guard because i dont have so many scans/PDD's at this time to make it to key points on the map
thx for your help in advance It's much better to get triple orbital as quickly as possible whenever you're playing mech. Gas is so vital and you need as much of it as possible, so if you take your factories faster, get additional refineries etc, you run the risk of being confined to 2 bases for a VERY long time, particularly against a macro-oriented bio player - they can just out-produce you in the mid game. Mech TvT revolves around getting 3 bases of gas as quickly as possible. The triple OC facilitates this, and is fairly safe assuming you pressure early and scout accordingly. You can even pull SCV's to defend agressive play and 2 base all-ins, as they provide a vital meatshield for your hellions while you produce your infrastructure and transition. Whether you play single or double upgrades really depends on what you have scouted and how safe or how defensive you need to be. If you have an economy advantage, especially a 3rd landed faster, you can go for a 2nd armory before factory 4 + 5. Otherwise, it's probably better to get 1 armory until you have ALL your infrastructure (5 fac 1 port 1 armory), then add a 2nd one if required. Against bio, you want primarily mass hellion/hellbat/tank/medivac, with 1-2 ravens and just enough vikings to kill their medivacs. Only start making more than 5 vikings once you see them trying to go air. If they aren't going for an air transition after taking their 4th, you should start mixing in banshees for their ridiculous DPS (and they dont even need a separate upgrade now!). Against mech, you want hellions, hellbats and tanks for the ground, while always wanting to produce enough air to control the skies. Don't over-produce vikings though, and make sure you scan to check if they give up the skies and go thors, in which case you can go into cloakshees, ravens, and BC's, and abuse the sheer immobility and poor pushing potential of a heavy-thor army. When you roll out with mech is probably the hardest thing about the style to learn. A good rule of thumb would be to roll out when you can push with an army which will have air control, and you have enough to survive long enough to establish a strong position either sieging their 3rd, 4th, or production lines. Rally a wave of units behind your push to your weakest base to protect against counter attacks, and make sure you have sensor towers and enough turrets, depots and macro orbitals to mess up a counter attacking player's pathing, and maximise your defensive tanks potential firepower. If you don't have enough scans it's probably stemming from a delayed 3rd, which snowballs as you get behind in the mid game and can't afford macro orbitals. Also, as your units are so gas dependent, you should be maxing out and having a LOT of minerals spare. Mass those turret rings and spam those orbitals and defensive planetary's. You're in this for the long haul! And a good rule of thumb - Mech should always have equal or 1 less base than a bio player, and always trying to 1-up an opposing meching player.
First of all thx for answers but i have few further questions:
1) I agree with it that you want 6 gases as soon as possible with mech but it's nearly always hard to hold a 8-9 Min 3rd CC on the lowground against a bio player because at this stage of the game you don't have enough tanks to defend everything and stimmed marines take out a cc really qucikly. In this case i often can use my 3rd CC (even if build it earlier) until around the 12-13 Minute and get the additional gas income. The plus in mineral income lets say from 8-12 Min isn't that huge as a mech player because the limiting factor is gas. Why shouldn't i build my 3rd CC earlier if i can not use them to get more gas because it's always threaten by a bio player? I have to say that i normally go for 2 Reaper FE into Reactor Hellions and maybe tanks if i scout a aggressive 1/1/1 and not for a gas first opening but i want to switch that. Mayve that influence this.
3) Some further questions to the compositions because it's not clear what unit you favor against mech and against bio.
Against bio i see the following options:
1. Mass Hellions+Tank+Viking+Raven
2. Mass Hellbats+Tank+Viking+Raven
3. Mass Hellbats+Tank+Viking+Raven+4-8 MediVacs for my Hellbats.
4. Primarily Hellions to be mobile on the maps (defending drops and for runbys)+Tank+Viking+Raven and maybe 4-8 MediVacs full with Hellbats to drop them on top of the army in an engagement
And maybe another one is to go for "Mass Hellions" in the early to Midgame that i can react to incoming drops with the high mobility of hellions and then at some point switch to Hellbats (maybe even with the transition upgrade)
And against mech i see the follwing ones:
1. Mass Hellions+Tank+Viking+Raven
2. Mass Hellbats+Tank+Viking+Raven
3. Mass Hellbats+Tank+Viking+Raven+4 MediVacs
What should i use? Is it worth it to invest into MediVacs because it cut into your Viking count but i you land like 8 Hellbats on top of their tanks its huge. Do i need Hellbats in TvT mech to protect my tanks from any other hellbats or can i go for hellions because mass runbys are huge against mech player and mostly doable. And with hellions you can kite those pesky hellbats really well too.
thx
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As I have read, and if I understood it right, the only viable compo is the 3M (4M vs Z) in all matches? I mean, there is no mention to mech in any case. It isn't viable?
I recently switched to Terran (I was playing Protoss since late 2011), because I like Terran unit compos, unit models, as much as I love the Toss artistic style; currently I'm stuck in silver and I having too much problems with my TvP. My best match-up is TvT (with 3 bases and loooots of tanks with WM/Marine support), and I like to point one thing in TvZ:
Sometines, in TvZ, I like to play greedy and make a little version on 3CC and then 3 Factories + 2 Starports, and begin with WM, Thors and Marines with Medevacs; the last 10 matches I've played with this compo, I won (and I got raged, LOL). I really think mech it's still viable, but no idea how can I use it properly (my macro goes DOWN (or up if you prefer it xD) with a HUGE money bank: ~5000 mineral ~2000 gas at 20').
Any ideas on how use mech in the different match-ups?
P.S: I use the 4M (Polt's style) too, in fact, when I use the mech, greedy style is when I'm bored xD.
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On December 09 2013 22:09 pablcol wrote:
As I have read, and if I understood it right, the only viable compo is the 3M (4M vs Z) in all matches? I mean, there is no mention to mech in any case. It isn't viable?
I recently switched to Terran (I was playing Protoss since late 2011), because I like Terran unit compos, unit models, as much as I love the Toss artistic style; currently I'm stuck in silver and I having too much problems with my TvP. My best match-up is TvT (with 3 bases and loooots of tanks with WM/Marine support), and I like to point one thing in TvZ:
Sometines, in TvZ, I like to play greedy and make a little version on 3CC and then 3 Factories + 2 Starports, and begin with WM, Thors and Marines with Medevacs; the last 10 matches I've played with this compo, I won (and I got raged, LOL). I really think mech it's still viable, but no idea how can I use it properly (my macro goes DOWN (or up if you prefer it xD) with a HUGE money bank: ~5000 mineral ~2000 gas at 20').
Any ideas on how use mech in the different match-ups?
P.S: I use the 4M (Polt's style) too, in fact, when I use the mech, greedy style is when I'm bored xD.
You should check this thread about Mech: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396525
On our level (I'm also silver) Mech is definitely viable. Some may argue that everything is viable on our level though. 
However, even Pros do play Mech from time to time. I think the last one I saw was Innovation winning a map against Jaedong (?) with Mech during recent ASUS ROG NorthCon 2013.
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If you are doing a defensive 1-1-1 with a turret in your mineral line, a tank and a viking, non stop marine production from a naked rax (expecting a cloak banshee attack or some 1-1-1 attack from your opponent) , when do you build your CC? Before or after starport? Please be precise.
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On December 10 2013 05:15 MockHamill wrote:
If you are doing a defensive 1-1-1 with a turret in your mineral line, a tank and a viking, non stop marine production from a naked rax (expecting a cloak banshee attack or some 1-1-1 attack from your opponent) , when do you build your CC? Before or after starport? Please be precise.
Depends on your opening, a defensive 1/1/1 is best done (imo) off of a 15 gas reactor expand, in which case the CC would go down before the factory.
If you're doing a 13 gas defensive 1/1/1 opening, you're going to be behind vs a lot of the more economic openings, and a non-reactored barracks vs cloak banshee or some sort of 1/1/1 play is never ideal because your marine count will be too low.
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If you open 1-1-1 you don't need to put a turret into your mineral line until you expand......
I open with 11 gas 1-1-1 Save 1 Scan until your raven comes out which is after your banshee and build 1 wm after you make the techlab with your Factory and reland it. Also you take your expansion pretty much right after you first banshee finishes but you make it in base.... So to make it easier to follow it goes a little like this...
10 sd
11 gas
13 rax
16 OC + Factory
Constant marine production
2nd refinery
@100% factory make techlab for Starport and Starport **** ITS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE BEST IDEA IS TO BUILD SUPPLY DEPOTS AS A WALL AS HELLIONS CAN RUIN YOUR DAY WITH THIS BUILD ****
100% Techlab lift factory and re-land and make Widow mine ( Place widow mine by refinery in such a way that a banshee would never see it )
100% starport lift and land at Techlab start banshee and cloak.
AS minerals allow start CC in base
Then Start Raven and Techlab on Factory and start producing tanks. From here you can decide to go Mech or Go BIo Either way you do a 3 tank push with Raven and banshee *** YOu can produce Vikings for air superiority or go banshees and gain better harass capability and snipe tanks for your push. I would suggest Vikings so that your push can be quite strong and you will be able to crush your opponent if he skimps on this. ***
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Question: Is Innovation TvZ 3CC an automatic build order loss vs roach all in or baneling all in?
Are you expected to scout INTO the main with Hellions with this build? Should you SCV scout? Seems on many maps Zerg can simply evo block with a queen to completely deny scouting, in that case should you scan? I just started using the build, I don't even scout with it atm as I'm too focused on getting the build right.
Also, I float a crap ton of minerals with this build at the 10:30 mark despite being very close to benchmarks. The example replay vs very easy AI also floats a similar amount of minerals. Any tips on what to use these minerals on? Just make more rax? Turrets? I often get attacked with mutas JUST as I am moving out which can cause a bit of distress in mineral lines.
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Talking about TvP: Can someone give a detailed runthrough of ("korean style") 7rax build? When to get rax, what you're delaying, timings of tech/ebay/rax/3rd CC, i want something new(ish) to practice in a MU im struggling a lot in.
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On December 10 2013 19:12 nightshark wrote:
Question: Is Innovation TvZ 3CC an automatic build order loss vs roach all in or baneling all in?
Are you expected to scout INTO the main with Hellions with this build? Should you SCV scout? Seems on many maps Zerg can simply evo block with a queen to completely deny scouting, in that case should you scan? I just started using the build, I don't even scout with it atm as I'm too focused on getting the build right.
Also, I float a crap ton of minerals with this build at the 10:30 mark despite being very close to benchmarks. The example replay vs very easy AI also floats a similar amount of minerals. Any tips on what to use these minerals on? Just make more rax? Turrets? I often get attacked with mutas JUST as I am moving out which can cause a bit of distress in mineral lines.
It's not an automatic BO loss. You really need to scout it to have a chance of defending though, because you will need to have 4-5 bunkers up by the time he hits. (or a tank, but that's not how innovation plays).
You primarily scout with hellions - they give you a lot of info. You say that he can deny scouting with evo chambers+queens, well that is a tell in itself, because dedicated roach allins don't get 2 evos (except the later ~10 minute 1/1 roach allin but you can easily have tanks out in time for this).
With your hellions just look at things like third base, ling count, queen count, evos. If for some reason you really don't know what he's doing then you can spend a scan at around 7:30.
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It's not an automatic BO loss. You really need to scout it to have a chance of defending though, because you will need to have 4-5 bunkers up by the time he hits. (or a tank, but that's not how innovation plays).
You primarily scout with hellions - they give you a lot of info. You say that he can deny scouting with evo chambers+queens, well that is a tell in itself, because dedicated roach allins don't get 2 evos (except the later ~10 minute 1/1 roach allin but you can easily have tanks out in time for this).
With your hellions just look at things like third base, ling count, queen count, evos. If for some reason you really don't know what he's doing then you can spend a scan at around 7:30.
If you see this push coming or some type of all in coming doing the 3 Siege tank opener is extremely powerful. Just because Bio isn't that great vs Roach in a straight up fight I go Siege tanks when I see this to open up counter possibilities. If my opponent over extends and commits to the all in I make 4-5 Siege tanks and just Rally with 5 Rax 1 Starport and 2 Factories for a HARD counter. If you took minimal losses in the all in there is nothing they can do besides sit back and QQ.......
Edit: Your biggest Tell that you are getting all inned is at the beginning of the game when you see Drones Mining more than 100 Gas and they keep 3 drones on it. Also As Stated before scouting with hellions also lets you know whats going on... if you see a low queen count and no 3rd base by 7:30 you are most likely facing an all in and you need to favor production over upgrades when deciding infrastructure.....
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
How do I beat mass mutas as mech? I built turrets and everything but it just didnt matter ;( I hate sc2 so much right now
http://drop.sc/367584
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I'm going to be very honest Beating Mass Muta as Mech is EXTREMELY difficult. I've seen mass muta run over 14 thors. If they don't just A move and spread they seriously are so hard to stop. It comes down to Massing Thors and Mines as mech. Mines more so than thors.... 5-6 Thors with Mass Mines around your thors is the ONLY way. The only other thing that can compete with Mass muta is Mass marine with Meds.....
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
On December 11 2013 00:44 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I'm going to be very honest Beating Mass Muta as Mech is EXTREMELY difficult. I've seen mass muta run over 14 thors. If they don't just A move and spread they seriously are so hard to stop. It comes down to Massing Thors and Mines as mech. Mines more so than thors.... 5-6 Thors with Mass Mines around your thors is the ONLY way. The only other thing that can compete with Mass muta is Mass marine with Meds.....
Its so frustrating he played like crap but he just had a huge amount of mutas and baserace  so dumb
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Its so frustrating he played like crap but he just had a huge amount of mutas and baserace so dumb
I feel your pain brother. That's exactly why I don't play Mech In TvZ anymore. I tried it for a month when someone knew that mass muta was a hard counter they just micro mass muta FTW nothing you can do. Not saying it doesn't take skill to counter micro against Mech but when someone knows how its pretty much a 13 Minute Death Animation with like 1 chance to win and that is a Methodical Push with Mines / thors and Turrets pretty much as fast as you can with Hellion harass against them if you fail with hellion harass you pretty much have like 1% to win. This is atleast my experience maybe DWF has more experience with it....
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Raven Viking and Thor's and turrets protecting your tank lines and just fly in the Vikings and kite back to your Thor's constantly. This way its much harder for him to just magic box your Thor's as you have turrets and PDD to back up your Thor's and Vikings. Building armour and +1 range and mass turret rings with a widow mine or two amongst them helps defend your bases. His army is basically dead in a fight at this point so just build orbitals and expand when you can and scan constantly to see his army after the mutas die to build the right units.
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On December 09 2013 19:08 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 09:00 deth wrote:On December 04 2013 18:54 saaaa wrote:
I have some questions about Mechplay in TvT and i'm interested in your opinions.
1) Do i need fast 3 CC's after Gas First Builds to catch up and play a even game? Or is it possible and viable to build my 3 CC after my additional Factories? I think to delay my 3rd CC is fine, because i can not land and defend it anyways against a bio player.
2) With the new patch and combined mech upgrades. Should i play mech in TvT with double upgrades or still just single?
3) My order of factories, starport, armory and cc is until now this one:
Fac --> Starport --> 2nd CC --> 2nd+3rd Fac--> Armory+Reactor Starport --> 4th+5th Fac and if i had like 8 gases i add two starports and facs against a bio player otherwise just starports.. I tried to copy terran pro player but it seems they dont follow a logic with this. Maybe you guys can help.
4) What are your compositions against bio and mech players? I normally play against a bio player in the early stage up to 12 Hellions for fast defending and then switch into Tank+Hellbat+MediVac (after reaching like 6 Vikings)+Raven. Against a mech player i normally play Hellbat+Tank+Viking+4-6 MediVac (for dropping tanks)+Raven.
5) When should i roll out with my mech army? After a max out with 2/2 - 2/0 Uprades? Or should i play defensive and just be more cost effective the whole game? Or should i just defend so long until i win a big engagement and then attack?
I often have the problem when i want to roll out to early i get catched off guard because i dont have so many scans/PDD's at this time to make it to key points on the map
thx for your help in advance It's much better to get triple orbital as quickly as possible whenever you're playing mech. Gas is so vital and you need as much of it as possible, so if you take your factories faster, get additional refineries etc, you run the risk of being confined to 2 bases for a VERY long time, particularly against a macro-oriented bio player - they can just out-produce you in the mid game. Mech TvT revolves around getting 3 bases of gas as quickly as possible. The triple OC facilitates this, and is fairly safe assuming you pressure early and scout accordingly. You can even pull SCV's to defend agressive play and 2 base all-ins, as they provide a vital meatshield for your hellions while you produce your infrastructure and transition. Whether you play single or double upgrades really depends on what you have scouted and how safe or how defensive you need to be. If you have an economy advantage, especially a 3rd landed faster, you can go for a 2nd armory before factory 4 + 5. Otherwise, it's probably better to get 1 armory until you have ALL your infrastructure (5 fac 1 port 1 armory), then add a 2nd one if required. Against bio, you want primarily mass hellion/hellbat/tank/medivac, with 1-2 ravens and just enough vikings to kill their medivacs. Only start making more than 5 vikings once you see them trying to go air. If they aren't going for an air transition after taking their 4th, you should start mixing in banshees for their ridiculous DPS (and they dont even need a separate upgrade now!). Against mech, you want hellions, hellbats and tanks for the ground, while always wanting to produce enough air to control the skies. Don't over-produce vikings though, and make sure you scan to check if they give up the skies and go thors, in which case you can go into cloakshees, ravens, and BC's, and abuse the sheer immobility and poor pushing potential of a heavy-thor army. When you roll out with mech is probably the hardest thing about the style to learn. A good rule of thumb would be to roll out when you can push with an army which will have air control, and you have enough to survive long enough to establish a strong position either sieging their 3rd, 4th, or production lines. Rally a wave of units behind your push to your weakest base to protect against counter attacks, and make sure you have sensor towers and enough turrets, depots and macro orbitals to mess up a counter attacking player's pathing, and maximise your defensive tanks potential firepower. If you don't have enough scans it's probably stemming from a delayed 3rd, which snowballs as you get behind in the mid game and can't afford macro orbitals. Also, as your units are so gas dependent, you should be maxing out and having a LOT of minerals spare. Mass those turret rings and spam those orbitals and defensive planetary's. You're in this for the long haul! And a good rule of thumb - Mech should always have equal or 1 less base than a bio player, and always trying to 1-up an opposing meching player. First of all thx for answers but i have few further questions: 1) I agree with it that you want 6 gases as soon as possible with mech but it's nearly always hard to hold a 8-9 Min 3rd CC on the lowground against a bio player because at this stage of the game you don't have enough tanks to defend everything and stimmed marines take out a cc really qucikly. In this case i often can use my 3rd CC (even if build it earlier) until around the 12-13 Minute and get the additional gas income. The plus in mineral income lets say from 8-12 Min isn't that huge as a mech player because the limiting factor is gas. Why shouldn't i build my 3rd CC earlier if i can not use them to get more gas because it's always threaten by a bio player? I have to say that i normally go for 2 Reaper FE into Reactor Hellions and maybe tanks if i scout a aggressive 1/1/1 and not for a gas first opening but i want to switch that. Mayve that influence this. 3) Some further questions to the compositions because it's not clear what unit you favor against mech and against bio. Against bio i see the following options: 1. Mass Hellions+Tank+Viking+Raven 2. Mass Hellbats+Tank+Viking+Raven 3. Mass Hellbats+Tank+Viking+Raven+4-8 MediVacs for my Hellbats. 4. Primarily Hellions to be mobile on the maps (defending drops and for runbys)+Tank+Viking+Raven and maybe 4-8 MediVacs full with Hellbats to drop them on top of the army in an engagement And maybe another one is to go for "Mass Hellions" in the early to Midgame that i can react to incoming drops with the high mobility of hellions and then at some point switch to Hellbats (maybe even with the transition upgrade) And against mech i see the follwing ones: 1. Mass Hellions+Tank+Viking+Raven 2. Mass Hellbats+Tank+Viking+Raven 3. Mass Hellbats+Tank+Viking+Raven+4 MediVacs What should i use? Is it worth it to invest into MediVacs because it cut into your Viking count but i you land like 8 Hellbats on top of their tanks its huge. Do i need Hellbats in TvT mech to protect my tanks from any other hellbats or can i go for hellions because mass runbys are huge against mech player and mostly doable. And with hellions you can kite those pesky hellbats really well too. thx
someone thoughts about this? share them with me
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