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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
On December 04 2013 06:31 ZardiChar wrote: 2. What do you think of Thorzain's Ghost-Tank comp in TvP? Better luck in the Mech Reasorces thread... imo Ghost-Tank is easily the strongest ground composition by far TvP... shooting up is the only issue. | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
1) Do i need fast 3 CC's after Gas First Builds to catch up and play a even game? Or is it possible and viable to build my 3 CC after my additional Factories? I think to delay my 3rd CC is fine, because i can not land and defend it anyways against a bio player. 2) With the new patch and combined mech upgrades. Should i play mech in TvT with double upgrades or still just single? 3) My order of factories, starport, armory and cc is until now this one: Fac --> Starport --> 2nd CC --> 2nd+3rd Fac--> Armory+Reactor Starport --> 4th+5th Fac and if i had like 8 gases i add two starports and facs against a bio player otherwise just starports.. I tried to copy terran pro player but it seems they dont follow a logic with this. Maybe you guys can help. 4) What are your compositions against bio and mech players? I normally play against a bio player in the early stage up to 12 Hellions for fast defending and then switch into Tank+Hellbat+MediVac (after reaching like 6 Vikings)+Raven. Against a mech player i normally play Hellbat+Tank+Viking+4-6 MediVac (for dropping tanks)+Raven. 5) When should i roll out with my mech army? After a max out with 2/2 - 2/0 Uprades? Or should i play defensive and just be more cost effective the whole game? Or should i just defend so long until i win a big engagement and then attack? I often have the problem when i want to roll out to early i get catched off guard because i dont have so many scans/PDD's at this time to make it to key points on the map thx for your help in advance | ||
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Fhiz
361 Posts
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deth
Australia1757 Posts
On December 04 2013 18:54 saaaa wrote: I have some questions about Mechplay in TvT and i'm interested in your opinions. 1) Do i need fast 3 CC's after Gas First Builds to catch up and play a even game? Or is it possible and viable to build my 3 CC after my additional Factories? I think to delay my 3rd CC is fine, because i can not land and defend it anyways against a bio player. 2) With the new patch and combined mech upgrades. Should i play mech in TvT with double upgrades or still just single? 3) My order of factories, starport, armory and cc is until now this one: Fac --> Starport --> 2nd CC --> 2nd+3rd Fac--> Armory+Reactor Starport --> 4th+5th Fac and if i had like 8 gases i add two starports and facs against a bio player otherwise just starports.. I tried to copy terran pro player but it seems they dont follow a logic with this. Maybe you guys can help. 4) What are your compositions against bio and mech players? I normally play against a bio player in the early stage up to 12 Hellions for fast defending and then switch into Tank+Hellbat+MediVac (after reaching like 6 Vikings)+Raven. Against a mech player i normally play Hellbat+Tank+Viking+4-6 MediVac (for dropping tanks)+Raven. 5) When should i roll out with my mech army? After a max out with 2/2 - 2/0 Uprades? Or should i play defensive and just be more cost effective the whole game? Or should i just defend so long until i win a big engagement and then attack? I often have the problem when i want to roll out to early i get catched off guard because i dont have so many scans/PDD's at this time to make it to key points on the map thx for your help in advance It's much better to get triple orbital as quickly as possible whenever you're playing mech. Gas is so vital and you need as much of it as possible, so if you take your factories faster, get additional refineries etc, you run the risk of being confined to 2 bases for a VERY long time, particularly against a macro-oriented bio player - they can just out-produce you in the mid game. Mech TvT revolves around getting 3 bases of gas as quickly as possible. The triple OC facilitates this, and is fairly safe assuming you pressure early and scout accordingly. You can even pull SCV's to defend agressive play and 2 base all-ins, as they provide a vital meatshield for your hellions while you produce your infrastructure and transition. Whether you play single or double upgrades really depends on what you have scouted and how safe or how defensive you need to be. If you have an economy advantage, especially a 3rd landed faster, you can go for a 2nd armory before factory 4 + 5. Otherwise, it's probably better to get 1 armory until you have ALL your infrastructure (5 fac 1 port 1 armory), then add a 2nd one if required. Against bio, you want primarily mass hellion/hellbat/tank/medivac, with 1-2 ravens and just enough vikings to kill their medivacs. Only start making more than 5 vikings once you see them trying to go air. If they aren't going for an air transition after taking their 4th, you should start mixing in banshees for their ridiculous DPS (and they dont even need a separate upgrade now!). Against mech, you want hellions, hellbats and tanks for the ground, while always wanting to produce enough air to control the skies. Don't over-produce vikings though, and make sure you scan to check if they give up the skies and go thors, in which case you can go into cloakshees, ravens, and BC's, and abuse the sheer immobility and poor pushing potential of a heavy-thor army. When you roll out with mech is probably the hardest thing about the style to learn. A good rule of thumb would be to roll out when you can push with an army which will have air control, and you have enough to survive long enough to establish a strong position either sieging their 3rd, 4th, or production lines. Rally a wave of units behind your push to your weakest base to protect against counter attacks, and make sure you have sensor towers and enough turrets, depots and macro orbitals to mess up a counter attacking player's pathing, and maximise your defensive tanks potential firepower. If you don't have enough scans it's probably stemming from a delayed 3rd, which snowballs as you get behind in the mid game and can't afford macro orbitals. Also, as your units are so gas dependent, you should be maxing out and having a LOT of minerals spare. Mass those turret rings and spam those orbitals and defensive planetary's. You're in this for the long haul! And a good rule of thumb - Mech should always have equal or 1 less base than a bio player, and always trying to 1-up an opposing meching player. | ||
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On December 04 2013 13:29 azngamer828 wrote: GOLD LEAGUE HERE @TheDWF!!!!! in TvT, marine/tank vs marine/tank... when do you get 2nd factory and 3rd factory? I do it after I have 3 CC, 8 rax, 1 fac, 1 sp, 2 ebay, 1 armory. | ||
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Rambolav
Norway42 Posts
With the addition to mech of combined vehicle and ship upgrades, I feel like there is just no point doing anything else than mech and I don't like that. I want to play bio with my forces moving organically around the map, doing the occasional drops etc. I don't want to play a match based so much on turtling and positioning as mech is. I want macro to be important to back up my bio army, and my subsequent bio micro to be important. The problem though is that as far as moving around the map is concerned, I a) will get scorched by a convincing number of hellions b) I can't move up his ramp with sieged tanks being there c) I cannot drop into his turret-filled main I feel like as soon as a terran opponent has one or two turrets + (bfh) hellions I won't have a chance to drop in his base before 9-10 minutes. He'll soon get tanks and turtle till my bio army is null and void all round. And of course, we know that late game bio really has no place in tvt. With pfs and turrets and a scary ground mech army there's just no way to do much damage. But maybe I'm doing something wrong and there is a stronger way. I am open here to, well, suggestions for openers, general tips on how to command the match, anything really. Note: I open up with 11 and 13 rax for very early reaper harass which I feel is the fastest but yet most economically stable way to be aggressive with reapers early. I try and do damage before transitioning into normal bio with as many upgrades as possible, combat shields/stim depending on the situation. I have experimented with a gasless expand which in itself is difficult but I yield pretty much the same results as I won't touch my opponent before some minutes have gone by. Also generally, of course I will mix tanks into my army, but I feel like bio should be so fast that pure, well macroed, well defended bio should crush a mech buildup before, say, 10 minutes. | ||
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
On December 06 2013 01:12 Rambolav wrote: Hi guys, I was just wondering if anyone knew of some solid bio or biomech builds that are actually still viable in tvt. With the addition to mech of combined vehicle and ship upgrades, I feel like there is just no point doing anything else than mech and I don't like that. I want to play bio with my forces moving organically around the map, doing the occasional drops etc. I don't want to play a match based so much on turtling and positioning as mech is. I want macro to be important to back up my bio army, and my subsequent bio micro to be important. The problem though is that as far as moving around the map is concerned, I a) will get scorched by a convincing number of hellions b) I can't move up his ramp with sieged tanks being there c) I cannot drop into his turret-filled main I feel like as soon as a terran opponent has one or two turrets + (bfh) hellions I won't have a chance to drop in his base before 9-10 minutes. He'll soon get tanks and turtle till my bio army is null and void all round. And of course, we know that late game bio really has no place in tvt. With pfs and turrets and a scary ground mech army there's just no way to do much damage. But maybe I'm doing something wrong and there is a stronger way. I am open here to, well, suggestions for openers, general tips on how to command the match, anything really. Note: I open up with 11 and 13 rax for very early reaper harass which I feel is the fastest but yet most economically stable way to be aggressive with reapers early. I try and do damage before transitioning into normal bio with as many upgrades as possible, combat shields/stim depending on the situation. I have experimented with a gasless expand which in itself is difficult but I yield pretty much the same results as I won't touch my opponent before some minutes have gone by. Also generally, of course I will mix tanks into my army, but I feel like bio should be so fast that pure, well macroed, well defended bio should crush a mech buildup before, say, 10 minutes. Biotank is very viable versus mech. Your opener is kind of cheesy, the best openers in TvT atm are gas first/15 gas. Both transition into bio or mech as you prefer. Its hard to judge your play based on the 2 rax reaper build, because you'll be in a bad spot if you don't do some damage with that or go 3 CC afterwards which doesn't really let you pressure a mech player at all. up until about 9/10 minutes it doesn't really matter if your opponent is going mech or bio, and you can pressure him with drops/tank pushes/banshees etc. Once you transition into the midgame with a good economy you want to delay his third base as much as possible by posturing with your army, and once hes taken a 3rd you can start dropping and being more aggressive. Addressing your other points: The problem though is that as far as moving around the map is concerned, I a) will get scorched by a convincing number of hellions b) I can't move up his ramp with sieged tanks being there c) I cannot drop into his turret-filled main a) If you're getting scorched by hellions you're too marine heavy, make more marauders and earlier. b) Don't move up his ramp, draw him in different directions while outexpanding him and possibly teching to sky(optional). c) Almost any base can be dropped with enough medivacs and the right angle. Make sure you find the weakest spot in the turret ring and save your medivac boost for the last second. Use 3+ medivacs and start dropping your units the moment you can. | ||
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Rambolav
Norway42 Posts
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Fhiz
361 Posts
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SrPablo
United States8 Posts
In TvT, I often go reaper->hellion expand (like MMA does in TvZ -- gas reaper reactor expo fac &c) and use the reaper to scout, but I often lose to people who do some kind of 2 or 3rax reaper, or reactor reaper, where they just produce them at a pretty fast rate, or show up with ~3-4 and they number increases. * Whats the best way to stop this if you're going reaper expand? Do you need to scout first with an SCV then the reaper? * Are other TvT builds (that I've been avoiding practicing :-p) better at stopping this? I see from an earlier post that the old IM TvP build (15gas 2 marine -> reactor + expo) is considered one of the safest TvT builds. Does that stop this better? Do you just drop a bunker? Thanks, for this and the rest of the thread, which has been super helpful :D | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On December 06 2013 19:33 Talack wrote: Are hellbats used in any matchup for any straight up fight? They really seem bad against....everything :S They're awesome against Zerglings and Zealots. I guess it's more a matter of "do they fit into the composition" and/or "do I have units in my composition that serve the same purpose already". In case of Bio I guess Marines deal with Zerglings and Zealots good enough to make Hellbats unneeded. If you play Mech though, you need the Hellbats, because you have nothing else filling the anti-mass-light-units role. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On December 06 2013 19:53 BurningRanger wrote: They're awesome against Zerglings and Zealots. I guess it's more a matter of "do they fit into the composition" and/or "do I have units in my composition that serve the same purpose already". In case of Bio I guess Marines deal with Zerglings and Zealots good enough to make Hellbats unneeded. If you play Mech though, you need the Hellbats, because you have nothing else filling the anti-mass-light-units role. They don't fit into anything. TvZ, they die instantly to banelings and cannot shoot up. It's a waste of time to make them. TvP they die so fast to anything that isnt pure zealot, die to archons insanely fast and die to collosus extremely fast. There really isn't anything outside of a gimic that they are good in it seems | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On December 06 2013 20:27 Talack wrote: They don't fit into anything. TvZ, they die instantly to banelings and cannot shoot up. It's a waste of time to make them. TvP they die so fast to anything that isnt pure zealot, die to archons insanely fast and die to collosus extremely fast. There really isn't anything outside of a gimic that they are good in it seems, pretty useless unit :S Again, if you play Bio, that may be right. If you play Mech, you'd wish your opponent goes Banelings, because those die to Tankshots before they reach the Hellbats. In TvP you'd wish your opponent goes Colossi, because they're not too efficient against a Tankline either (the Hellbats just stand next to the tanks to protect them from Zealots here, NOT run up to the Colossi). Archons are best dealt with EMP in all cases anyways. If I'd use your kind of argumentation, I could also say that Marauders are bad, because they don't shoot up and die to Immortals. There really are less useful or more specialized units in the Terran arsenal than Hellbats (e.g. Reapers or BCs). | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On December 06 2013 19:33 Talack wrote: Are hellbats used in any matchup for any straight up fight? They really seem bad against....everything :S forGG used them quite frequently in his TvPs. He literally showerd in the storms with them and still won. but i am not sure wether or not his still using them, might have gotten figured out. | ||
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Rambolav
Norway42 Posts
http://drop.sc/367177 I felt my macro was good this match, I kept calm and got stim and +1 and even dodged a storm alright but there was no way I could touch him. I retreat to wait for ghosts and then it's GG. I feel like I could barely have contested his now growing deathball, but his inevitable harass just means that I cannot possibly contest him at all. It's not fair that one race is allowed to not have to put any effort into defending themselves except press the button for photon overcharge, storm or a move colossus while the other has to micro against units that will not die. Could I have dropped him? No. He wouldve known I was coming and my ground army really had no chance anyway to fight his even on equal footing. I tried doing damage at nat. Unsuccesful. Could I even advance to late game? No. He didn't even need a third a) Protoss has about a hundred different variants of all ins to do b) If a protoss wants they will be able to camp in their base and wait for some sort of AoE, observers will help tremendously with this c) Protoss zealot harass d) Photon overcharge. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
I retreat to wait for ghosts and then it's GG I can't really help you but seeing you're platinum right now, maybe try to just make marines, marauders and medivacs to drop the shit out of them until one of you dies maru style. If you can't control ghost vs the ball of doom why bother making them only to get evaporated in like 2 seconds and lose the game. | ||
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Rambolav
Norway42 Posts
On December 07 2013 04:29 PanzerElite wrote: I can't really help you but seeing you're platinum right now, maybe try to just make marines, marauders and medivacs to drop the shit out of them until one of you dies maru style. If you can't control ghost vs the ball of doom why bother making them only to get evaporated in like 2 seconds and lose the game. Firstly one would think that I'd need to learn how to use ghosts anyway. Secondly I can't see how the retreating and waiting for ghosts killed me, there must be something to do earlier? I think I was doomed at a certain point anyway. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Could I have dropped him? No. He wouldve known I was coming and my ground army really had no chance anyway to fight his even on equal footing. That's why you do multipronged attacks. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
On December 07 2013 04:56 Rambolav wrote: Firstly one would think that I'd need to learn how to use ghosts anyway. Secondly I can't see how the retreating and waiting for ghosts killed me, I think I was doomed at a certain point anyway. If you want to use ghosts search for a trainer to actually practice instead of getting slaughtered while laddering, I forgot the names though. Dargelein xxx?? there must be something to do earlier? ^post, split up your army to pull his army out of position so you can drop/doom drop the hell out of the protoss player. | ||
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