|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On August 13 2013 05:31 501TFX wrote:
So ...
I'm a mid master terran, and I seriously struggle with mech TvT ... I really love bio styles, but how in the world is bio supposed to beat mech? Defending seems pretty easy with mech, and head on engagements are not really possible I feel .. what do I do? It's not so much about situations for me, it's about general ideas on how to play that :/
I am only plat, but as far as I'm aware to beat mech with bio you need to drop a lot and force his army out of position, keep forcing him to re-siege and move his tanks then take advantage of those openers.
Also you want to try and deny his third for as long as possible as when mech gets 6+ gases is when they can really ramp up their production. You will also want to expand aggressively so you can continue to throw wave after wave of medivac drops at your opponent.
On August 13 2013 06:19 terranimbastimamove wrote:
Top masters terran here and it seems to me that gas first cloak banshee is superior to every other opening in TvT, especially when they follow it up with a 1-1-1 timing. A build I like to do against it is either reactor hellion drop expand with tanks and vikings immediately after but it still is really hard to come out on top even if i play it perfect.
Does anyone have any tips on how to play against gas first cloak? Also I go mech just about every game TvT.
Just bank energy for scans and get a high viking count. As someone who likes to open marine/mine drop > cloakshee > 1/1/1 allin I find that if I can get more vikings than my opponent after my first 1/2 banshees I normally win as they can't stop my advances with better siege vision.
Also if I can't do much damage due to missile turrets, etc I will save my banshees to try and snipe tanks, if you have a few vikings and scans you can quickly drop the banshees before your defensive tanks take too much damage.
|
I beat a GM terran today who was unranking and offracing as zerg!! Roach / hydra 2 2 shut down by a few tanks and bunkers. Then abused immobility with drops and finally the BC transition.
|
On August 13 2013 07:26 KingofGods wrote:
I beat a GM terran today who was unranking and offracing as zerg!! Roach / hydra 2 2 shut down by a few tanks and bunkers. Then abused immobility with drops and finally the BC transition.
Odd reason to make a post...?
|
I explain how I beat 2 / 2 roach hydra (a lot of people have problems with this if you read the thread) while showing my excitement for beating a GM? Post worthy I would say.
I am a plat / diamond player so it's not everyday I beat or even face a GM player, offracing or not.
|
On August 13 2013 07:34 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:26 KingofGods wrote:
I beat a GM terran today who was unranking and offracing as zerg!! Roach / hydra 2 2 shut down by a few tanks and bunkers. Then abused immobility with drops and finally the BC transition. Odd reason to make a post...?
Gotta brag about beating a guy off-racing..
|
Not just any random guy. A GM. Most of the time GMs will beat anyone in this thread, even offracing because yes, GM players are that good mechanically and tactfully. This guy had close to 300 average APM while spiking to 530 at times, so it's not like he was fumbling to find the correct hotkey to press.
But anyway, like I said, I was also trying to explain what I do against the roach / hydra 2 2 timing that people are having troubles with. Just flip back a page or two and you can see people asking the very question of how to beat that. Referencing that this was against a GM player, even offracing, shows that this works at high levels as well.
PS: I could have conveniently left out that he was offracing couldn't I if I wanted to amp up the bragging?
|
On August 13 2013 08:13 KingofGods wrote:
Not just any random guy. A GM. Most of the time GMs will beat anyone in this thread, even offracing because yes, GM players are that good mechanically and tactfully. This guy had close to 300 average APM while spiking to 530 at times, so it's not like he was fumbling to find the correct hotkey to press.
But anyway, like I said, I was also trying to explain what I do against the roach / hydra 2 2 timing that people are having troubles with. Just flip back a page or two and you can see people asking the very question of how to beat that. Referencing that this was against a GM player, even offracing, shows that this works at high levels as well.
PS: I could have conveniently left out that he was offracing couldn't I if I wanted to amp up the bragging?
If you weren't bragging you could have also left out his league. It's pretty irrelevant in describing execution of an off-race. GM's are pretty good but they aren't by default GM level as every race without significant practice.
|
If you are going to quote my posts, you might as well read them as well.......Like I said, yes I WAS excited about beating a GM player. Like I said, how often do I get to play a GM? Even rarer to actually beat one!!
Do you have similar experiences of beating GMs you wish to share? Surely beating offracing GMs must be a common occurrence for you guys considering how you are trying so hard to shoot down the accomplishment.
Not referencing league or skill level? Ok.......well one time I beat a guy with only building SCVs. Mass SCVs must be a legitimate strategy, right?
Oh and this guy is a GM TERRAN. So I would say he knows the TvZ matchup fairly well from both sides, no?
By the way, there are people who get excited and proud about being promoted to silver from bronze too. It takes a very small small person to feel anything but happiness for this person. Now, most of us have gotten to the silver+ leagues so I suppose you could try to make yourself feel better by saying something along the lines of, "bronze players are a joke, I can to silver player with one hand" and maybe you are right, but why don't you try to find your own accomplishment to be happy about rather than belittling others to try to make yourself feel better?
Now with that aside, go ahead and try to belittle my accomplishment. But at the very least put some effort into it by one upping me. Show me you have beaten a better GM than I did. It actually won't bother me because I know there are tons of people better than me, but it might make you feel better.
|
I don't need to know your league or skill level to evaluate the merit of a mass SCV strategy. If you need the person's league/skill level to judge the validity of an argument using no evidence then you probably didn't know whether or not the argument was valid in the first place.
|
Oi KingofGods, Congratulations but as you can tell you're random outburst of "Oh hai guyz i beat a GM" did nothing but make people go wtf? You didn't reference any of the previous posts all you did was brag. Its a "Help me thread". Few tanks and bunkers....ok great, isn't that fairly standard in TvZ? Do you have any informative map specific placings of the bunkers and special siege formations you were using? I saw that there were some new posts here and i was keen to read what the latest was and its just your nonsense. You didn't ask a question or help anyone so shush.
|
On August 13 2013 07:26 KingofGods wrote:
I beat a GM terran today who was unranking and offracing as zerg!! Roach / hydra 2 2 shut down by a few tanks and bunkers. Then abused immobility with drops and finally the BC transition.
This is not the way to beat the roach hydra style in an ideal sense of the matter. I encourage everyone that is looking for an answer to roach hydra to disregard Tanks+Bunkers into BC/Drops as the goto answer.
Tanks are very good. The key to beating this style is to hit a timing attack with enough tanks and bio that hits when he is trying to transition to vipers/hive.
Usually, this means pushing out at around 170 food with 6-10 tanks. If the zerg does not go for hive it can be fine to wait till they start hive.
The basic logic is that a large tank based army is just hugely cost effective vs that zerg comp and the zerg's answer to tanks is to add vipers. You want to maximize the tank/army size while still not having to attack into a large blinding cloud situation.
BCs and Drops are just you beating someone offracing (a good player offracing, so no small feat).
|
Oh, so drops only work against people who are off racing? Ok.......
I never mentioned when I was pushing out. I did in fact push out when I had 6-10 tanks and I did hit before he went to hive.
|
On August 13 2013 08:13 KingofGods wrote:
Not just any random guy. A GM. Most of the time GMs will beat anyone in this thread, even offracing because yes, GM players are that good mechanically and tactfully. This guy had close to 300 average APM while spiking to 530 at times, so it's not like he was fumbling to find the correct hotkey to press.
But anyway, like I said, I was also trying to explain what I do against the roach / hydra 2 2 timing that people are having troubles with. Just flip back a page or two and you can see people asking the very question of how to beat that. Referencing that this was against a GM player, even offracing, shows that this works at high levels as well.
PS: I could have conveniently left out that he was offracing couldn't I if I wanted to amp up the bragging?
You did before you edited it. I saw the original post, with gg tracker and all.
2/2 roach hydra into what? Did he go into vipers? Did he go into ultras?
Just because your GM with one races doesn't mean you know any other race.
Again, there is NO reason for you to be posting some brag post about beating an offrace GM regardless of what it is. It holds nothing of any value, to anything. No discussion, nothing. It's a pure and simple brag post that has no place here.
Stupid reason to post at all. Not to mention 2/2 roach hydra that sees tank massing goes faster high for vipers and shits on you when when you move out on your side of the map, then remaxes.
I can beat high masters zergs in TvZ, and I'm pretty sure I lose to plat terrans as zerg. Bad logic.
|
The 2 / 2 roach timing was most important point. Who cares what happened afterward? It's the same reasoning as I didn't mention what his opening was. Was it hatch first or pool first? Who cares. The point is the 2 / 2 timing came and it was held off with the way I explained. That was what was important. And I DID explain what my follow up was.
Originally I put in the replay but figured it wasn't necessary since you can find replays of people using tanks to hold it off who are far better than me.
|
On August 13 2013 09:42 KingofGods wrote:
The 2 / 2 roach timing was most important point. Who cares what happened afterward? It's the same reasoning as I didn't mention what his opening was. Was it hatch first or pool first? Who cares. The point is the 2 / 2 timing came and it was held off with the way I explained. That was what was important. And I DID explain what my follow up was.
Originally I put in the replay but figured it wasn't necessary since you can find replays of people using tanks to hold it off who are far better than me.
No, you took the replay down because you saw it was someone off racing. I saw the original post. I saw the replay posted and saw he was a gm terran.
And now you're sitting here defending yourself... I think we should call the leg warehouse, because you haven't a leg to stand on here, my friend. A zerg that is going 2/2 roach hydra timing that sees tanks and bunkers doesn't just go ahead with the attack as planned, lol. They drop back, expand, and get vipers and then shit on you when you move out.
And if that's the case, no replay because you can find better examples...why the heck did you post at all then...? If you, yourself, just said no replay because you can find better examples there was no reason for you to post anything, other than to brag.
|
On August 13 2013 09:46 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 09:42 KingofGods wrote:
The 2 / 2 roach timing was most important point. Who cares what happened afterward? It's the same reasoning as I didn't mention what his opening was. Was it hatch first or pool first? Who cares. The point is the 2 / 2 timing came and it was held off with the way I explained. That was what was important. And I DID explain what my follow up was.
Originally I put in the replay but figured it wasn't necessary since you can find replays of people using tanks to hold it off who are far better than me. No, you took the replay down because you saw it was someone off racing. I saw the original post. I saw the replay posted and saw he was a gm terran. And now you're sitting here defending yourself... I think we should call the leg warehouse, because you haven't a leg to stand on here, my friend. A zerg that is going 2/2 roach hydra timing that sees tanks and bunkers doesn't just go ahead with the attack as planned, lol. They drop back, expand, and get vipers and then shit on you when you move out.
Are you kidding me? I knew he was offracing as soon as the game was finished. So.......before I even uploaded the replay. How exactly are you even trying to assume you've read my mind? If you read the original post, you will have seen that I even mentioned he was offracing in the original post..........
Now you all are trying to make SC2 sound like a rock-paper-scissors game where each person knows exactly what the other player will throw out. Well zerg went roach hydra, terran went tanks, zerg went vipers and wins the game.
Zerg went lings, terran went marines, zerg went banelings + mutas, terran went widow mines and wins the game.
Oh look, we've broken the game. We no longer have to play out any games because we know exactly how each game will turn out based on our reasoning.
|
On August 13 2013 09:52 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 09:46 iAmJeffReY wrote:On August 13 2013 09:42 KingofGods wrote:
The 2 / 2 roach timing was most important point. Who cares what happened afterward? It's the same reasoning as I didn't mention what his opening was. Was it hatch first or pool first? Who cares. The point is the 2 / 2 timing came and it was held off with the way I explained. That was what was important. And I DID explain what my follow up was.
Originally I put in the replay but figured it wasn't necessary since you can find replays of people using tanks to hold it off who are far better than me. No, you took the replay down because you saw it was someone off racing. I saw the original post. I saw the replay posted and saw he was a gm terran. And now you're sitting here defending yourself... I think we should call the leg warehouse, because you haven't a leg to stand on here, my friend. A zerg that is going 2/2 roach hydra timing that sees tanks and bunkers doesn't just go ahead with the attack as planned, lol. They drop back, expand, and get vipers and then shit on you when you move out. Are you kidding me? I knew he was offracing as soon as the game was finished. So.......before I even uploaded the replay. How exactly are you even trying to assume you've read my mind? If you read the original post, you will have seen that I even mentioned he was offracing in the original post.......... Now you all are trying to make SC2 sound like a rock-paper-scissors game where each person knows exactly what the other player will throw out. Well zerg went roach hydra, terran went tanks, zerg went vipers and wins the game. Zerg went lings, terran went marines, zerg went banelings + mutas, terran went widow mines and wins the game. Oh look, we've broken the game. We no longer have to play out any games because we know exactly how each game will turn out based on our reasoning.
Please explain your reason for posting each and every post since please.
You obviously don't understand the game at a higher level, and see that a zerg will scout with overseers/OLs and see that you have tanks and not try to run into bunkers and tanks... They SCOUT...see it's not cost effective, and fast hive for vipers.
You are so out there thinking anything of what you said pertains to what I have mentioned.
No, you changed the original post. I saw your original long post, with the GGtracker post, and there was nothing about him off racing before the edit.
Please... just go. You bring nothing to this discussion, and think that a zerg backing off and going vipers is 'a rock-paper-scissors game'
The key to beating roach hydra is keeping him back with drops, getting tanks for defensive purposes to stop any kind of busts at the 2/2 timing, and stay on your upgrades so you have 3/3 bio vs 2/2 roach hydra as he does hive transition. That's your window after he backs off his timing, or hits his timing. Then you heavy medivac count, and marauder marine medivac with a few tanks is all you need once you have the upgrade advantage. Keep an eye for if its BL or ultra transition, and react with vikings or widow mines accordingly.
The drops delay his macro by taking out drones and queens, and forces him to stay back defending as opposed to being on the map and bullying you around in the small unit count skirmishes. Roach hydra is good in small skirmishes, or with an upgrade lead. Otherwise, it falls flat. Hence why it needs to hit the timing at 2/2, or go fast hive and get vipers to trade effectively, then remax on something else.
But you beat a GM offrace zerg, so I'm sure you know that with your brag post and all.
|
Now we have to rely on you remembering what you think you read and taking your word over the person who actually played the game, checked the guys profile, uploaded the replay, and made the original post?
I beat a GM player for the first time in my life. You better believe the very first thing I do is check his profile.
I question your comprehension skills. I'm not the one making the game rock-paper-scissors. As I said, you guys are.
"If you make tanks you lose because he makes vipers" sounds a whole lot like "if you throw rock you lose because the other guy will throw paper" doesn't it?
And actually I would say the more common response to tanks is not "make more roaches + hydras with some vipers sprinkled in", but instead swarm hosts.
|
Finally back from band camp..
So recently I've been struggling extremely much in general. Couple of days ago I had close to 80%WR in TvT and it was clearly my best match up. Now I'm only facing cloakshee into 1:1:1 all in. And I lose to it every time. I do the LG-IM build or w/e its called, rax 12 gas 15 marine marine reactor > expo > factory swap > starport > hellions and well I ALMOST got one guy where I split my army and bum-rushed him from two sides, but I had to use scvs and his second push was too strong. How do I stop it?
TvP: I have no idea what to do. I die to the MSC/stalker/zealot poke a lot when I go cc first, so thats out of the window. I tried to just macro up (had a post about my plan couple of days ago) but it doesn't work at all tbh. I've tried the 1rax exp into mine drop, I've tried 1rax exp into marine mine push (and then drop). The build I've used the most is 1rax exp, 3rax fact starport then push with medivacs but I end up behind no matter what happens (I trade, I back off etc).. I have no idea what build I should do, I just die later anyways and can never get ahead.
TvZ: CC first with scout after 1st suppdep is done. Works great against 6pool but I struggle against all kinds of roach/bane "all in". I've been doing reaper expo into hellions for the contain, it works a little better but I'm struggling mid/lategame. Basically, I go 4M and everything is well until he gets ultras. I never make enough marauders in time. So even though I've cleared out his main and 2expos while I have a huge economy, he just crushed my army - and then gets into my base at which point I'm just dead.
Would love some feedback, I'm a little bit lost atm..
edit: I'm dia btw
|
The 12 rax, 15 gas is known as the Mil GG build. Mil GG somehow holds 1-1-1s with just hellions and vikings. I don't understand how. I always build tanks. To be super defensive in TvT always build a tank, raven, and viking. If you have air control his 1-1-1 push is completely shut down. I've seen people use their raven to seeker missile his tank(s) which shuts that push down too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
