EPTI've read that there's a 2 base baneling bust on 6:30. Is that build with hatch first? In that case, how could/should I scout it (as hellions also come on 6:30) and react?
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 145
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Carryon
Spain8 Posts
I've read that there's a 2 base baneling bust on 6:30. Is that build with hatch first? In that case, how could/should I scout it (as hellions also come on 6:30) and react? | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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IMR
70 Posts
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Buchan
Canada184 Posts
Does anyone have any good Marauder Hellbat centric builds? | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
On August 11 2013 04:01 Buchan wrote: So after doing some tests in the unit tester in arcade it seems that hellbats are actually way better vs Protoss than I thought. If you do a test with 20 hellbats 30 marauders vs a test with 40 marines and 30 marauders the hellbat based army does so much better against splash even without blue flame. The hellbats just tank the aoe from the collosi and the marauders deal in the back. Does anyone have any good Marauder Hellbat centric builds? This doesn't directly answer your question, but one of the problems with Hellbats is that they're really awful against storms. No stim to dodge, so you have to eat the full damage every time. See Rain v. Bomber game 2 from the recent OSL semis for an extreme example. | ||
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Buchan
Canada184 Posts
On August 11 2013 04:17 sevia wrote: Thats true but they do have the benefit of not losing 10/20 health every stim. I find that in a lot of games Terran bio armies end up doing a lot of damage to themselves through stimming even if you have a decent medivac count. This doesn't directly answer your question, but one of the problems with Hellbats is that they're really awful against storms. No stim to dodge, so you have to eat the full damage every time. See Rain v. Bomber game 2 from the recent OSL semis for an extreme example. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Basically at what minute should you pull all my SCVs and go for the all-in? Also, how do you deal with Forcefields when you do do the bio/SCV all in? | ||
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LiLSighKoh
United States588 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:05 MockHamill wrote: What is the easiest to excute and most effecient TvP all-in? My win percentage is 37% in TvP and I am disgusted by the matchup and how much more work it requires from Terran compared to Protoss. Basically at what minute should you pull all my SCVs and go for the all-in? Also, how do you deal with Forcefields when you do do the bio/SCV all in? There's no real "minute" to pull scvs. It depends on when you see your oponent before him switching to storm and when you have enough vikings. Also QXC said on his stream before, that you should be able to pull off an scv timing if your opponent got a delayed/late 3rd because of gas income. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On August 11 2013 04:01 Buchan wrote: So after doing some tests in the unit tester in arcade it seems that hellbats are actually way better vs Protoss than I thought. If you do a test with 20 hellbats 30 marauders vs a test with 40 marines and 30 marauders the hellbat based army does so much better against splash even without blue flame. The hellbats just tank the aoe from the collosi and the marauders deal in the back. Does anyone have any good Marauder Hellbat centric builds? I don't know of any really strong post-nerf Maurader Hellbat builds, but I will say Hellbats aren't nearly as good as they appear in a unit tester. Forcefields are really good against them, Collosi and Stalkers can kite them, Archons 3 shot them and Storm is more or less undodgeable (which means you need a really high medivac count, which means less vikings to deal with Collosi). They also come out later and at a higher infrastructure cost (and TvP seems to be about abusing very small timing windows). Still, I wont discourage you from trying it, I think your best bet for an opening is something along the lines of reaper expand into marine / mine drop, adding a tech lab on the factory after 2 mines for blue flame, a reactor on the startport and 2 extra rax with tech labs. After you start your third add on another rax and factory, and swap the factory researching blue flame onto a reactor, so you end up with 2 reactor factory, 4 tech lab rax and 1 reactor starport. Add on 3-4 more tech lab rax, 1 more reactor factory and 1 more reactor starport after your third is fully saturated. This is the infrastructure I used when I briefly experimented with Maurader Hellbat pre-nerf and it seemed to line up nicely. | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
As of right now I feel that there is only one good way to play TvP - Safe opener>fast third>let both players max out (given normal circumstances)>try to answer protoss tech choices as well as you can and hopefully destroy him in the engagement>Continue taking and securing expands, go for the quick kill 2-3 minutes later, scanning for what he goes for at the remax. First off I'm a diamond player. I came back to sc2 for a couple of weeks ago after 1,5 year absence - So this is just what I've figured out from my limited play time. But the way I see it, playing TvP any other way than suggested is just bad. Here's why: - Early greedy builds (cc first etc) too weak against oracle builds, zealot-pokes on close distance etc - 10 minute push is hit and miss and you are basically hoping that your opponent is bad. Some toss knows how to defend his third, others do not. You can't win a heads on engagement at this time unless opponent sucks - Drops + pushing = bad. I don't know about you people but first of all controlling 2 drops (that are supposed to do any damage) WHILE keeping three control groups in check is very hard. Taking into account how important the first battle against toss is, I don't think its worth sending medivacs away until very lategame. - Drops in general = bad. You may be able to kill some probes or a nexus lategame at a far away expand, but normally a HT will do a feedback, then zealots gets warped in and you are dead. Drops are almost NEVER cost efficient for me. - Pushing before you got a HUGE army (200/200) is risky. I find that I never get enough defence against zealot runbys, HT/DT drops etc. If my army is far away I just go all in if I push, if I return I lose so much the protoss can accept a bad engagement and still win - Tech switches are too much of a risk if you push and lose your army earlier than max. You need to be one several OCs to scan his tech choice after the huge engagement. I believe terran should either go for the quick kill (just all in protoss for this, really) or basically just turtle, try to get max fast and walk up close to the protoss army while walling off all that can be walled off, bunkers, turrets ++ at home to avoid the game ending harass, then hope to destroy protoss and take expands. Repeat until you win war of attrition. Of course, you will probably lose anyways, but I think this puts terran at better odds than middle of the road play where you just die later because zealot warpin / tech switch/ mass harass / storms. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
Just to be clear, the build I am talking about is: 12 rax 12 gas reaper reactor expo factory, 2 widow mines starport, 1 medivac You definitely need that 2nd gas pretty quick otherwise you won't have enough for combat shield and stim. But just 2 gases alone won't give you enough gas to get +1 as well. Then if you want to continue medivac production you'll need a 4th gas pretty quick. But after you start researching stim and combat shield, you don't need that much gas anymore. | ||
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LiLSighKoh
United States588 Posts
On August 11 2013 08:58 KingofGods wrote: When going widow mine drop after expo in tvp, when do you get your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gases and the engy bay? Just to be clear, the build I am talking about is: 12 rax 12 gas reaper reactor expo factory, 2 widow mines starport, 1 medivac You definitely need that 2nd gas pretty quick otherwise you won't have enough for combat shield and stim. But just 2 gases alone won't give you enough gas to get +1 as well. Then if you want to continue medivac production you'll need a 4th gas pretty quick. But after you start researching stim and combat shield, you don't need that much gas anymore. You get your 2nd gas after you start your starport, and 3rd probably shortly after it finishes | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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Carryon
Spain8 Posts
On August 10 2013 23:59 sAsImre wrote: Ok, so I'll scout after starting the rax and double wall the depot side if I see it coming, thx.There is no way a 1b bust can have enough gas to break a double layer wall. On August 11 2013 03:20 KingofGods wrote: That will help, thx. SCV scout the natural around the 5-6 min mark. If there are little drones there you know a lot of zerglings are coming and probably banes too. The next timing should be the 8ish min mark when they should be saturating their 3rd. If no saturation, then roaches are coming with a high possibility of banes and zerglings to accompany. You might want to throw a scan down at this stage too in case of 2 base mutas. | ||
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A Wild Sosd
Australia421 Posts
On August 11 2013 08:58 KingofGods wrote: When going widow mine drop after expo in tvp, when do you get your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gases and the engy bay? Just to be clear, the build I am talking about is: 12 rax 12 gas reaper reactor expo factory, 2 widow mines starport, 1 medivac You definitely need that 2nd gas pretty quick otherwise you won't have enough for combat shield and stim. But just 2 gases alone won't give you enough gas to get +1 as well. Then if you want to continue medivac production you'll need a 4th gas pretty quick. But after you start researching stim and combat shield, you don't need that much gas anymore. Get 2nd gas and ebay after medivac is finished and I get gases 3 and 4 as my 3rd CC is going up. 3 mines isn't a bad idea as well as you can either use it for defense or use it along with a few marines at the front as you drop 2 mines in the main. Taeja does this build like a god so watch some of his dreamhack or Asus ROG replays. | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On August 11 2013 06:13 krooked wrote: OK I've been thinking a little bit about TvP, and would like input: As of right now I feel that there is only one good way to play TvP - Safe opener>fast third>let both players max out (given normal circumstances)>try to answer protoss tech choices as well as you can and hopefully destroy him in the engagement>Continue taking and securing expands, go for the quick kill 2-3 minutes later, scanning for what he goes for at the remax. First off I'm a diamond player. I came back to sc2 for a couple of weeks ago after 1,5 year absence - So this is just what I've figured out from my limited play time. But the way I see it, playing TvP any other way than suggested is just bad. Here's why: - Early greedy builds (cc first etc) too weak against oracle builds, zealot-pokes on close distance etc - 10 minute push is hit and miss and you are basically hoping that your opponent is bad. Some toss knows how to defend his third, others do not. You can't win a heads on engagement at this time unless opponent sucks - Drops + pushing = bad. I don't know about you people but first of all controlling 2 drops (that are supposed to do any damage) WHILE keeping three control groups in check is very hard. Taking into account how important the first battle against toss is, I don't think its worth sending medivacs away until very lategame. - Drops in general = bad. You may be able to kill some probes or a nexus lategame at a far away expand, but normally a HT will do a feedback, then zealots gets warped in and you are dead. Drops are almost NEVER cost efficient for me. - Pushing before you got a HUGE army (200/200) is risky. I find that I never get enough defence against zealot runbys, HT/DT drops etc. If my army is far away I just go all in if I push, if I return I lose so much the protoss can accept a bad engagement and still win - Tech switches are too much of a risk if you push and lose your army earlier than max. You need to be one several OCs to scan his tech choice after the huge engagement. I believe terran should either go for the quick kill (just all in protoss for this, really) or basically just turtle, try to get max fast and walk up close to the protoss army while walling off all that can be walled off, bunkers, turrets ++ at home to avoid the game ending harass, then hope to destroy protoss and take expands. Repeat until you win war of attrition. Of course, you will probably lose anyways, but I think this puts terran at better odds than middle of the road play where you just die later because zealot warpin / tech switch/ mass harass / storms. - CC first is a common, and very safe build vs almost anything Protoss can do, it is actually safer than 1 rax FE vs Proxy Oracle. - 10 minute push was never to outright kill the Protoss or do massive damage, you have mobility due to medivacs, this is when you can start to abuse the strength of Bio and take your third whilst denying the Protoss' for as long as you can. -Drops are more useful to think in terms of pulling and pushing the Protoss army in a certain direction, this is what allows you to do massive damage, especially when they take a third. -Drops don't 'have' to kill anything to be effective, you can use them to gain position, or set yourself up for a better multipronged attack. -Pushing before 200/200 is mandatory, you have to be aggressive as the Protoss army generally does better than the Terrans at 200/200 (arguably.) -Don't understand how this is an issue, Gateway will be prioritised as it is faster to build from than Robotics bay, so more ghosts/vikings while phasing marines out is always a good call against most things Protoss have. All inning Protoss isn't really viable with the introduction of the MsC, 11/11 is probably the best bet with good execution, or a 2 base SCV pull a la MVP for a pre-storm timing, but that only works if the Protoss goes Robo before Templar tech | ||
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Matta
United States116 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On August 12 2013 00:31 Matta wrote: I didn't see all of Taeja's play at WCS America, but he seemed to be doing a 2rax baseless expand with marine pressure while macroing behind it. What are y'all's thoughts on that? I really hate TvP and the opportunity to sock it to Protoss early on seems really appealing. I don't know what you mean by 'baseless expand', but Taeja has been going CC-first into 2-rax a lot. As for 'pressure', a double proxied 11-11 Barracks CAN work in the right circumstances with perfect micro and decision making (see Maru vs Rain game 3 on Bel'Shir Vestige), but in most situations, a simple Mothership Core plus 2-3 units is sufficient to defend. The only situation in which cheese or pressure tends to succeed is in longer Best-of-X series when you can influence the thought process of your opponent or know that they don't scout, and can slip in a gas-first drop harass play. See Game 4 of Taeja vs Macsed from the WCS AM finals of this season. | ||
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