EPTI'm wondering if anyone at a higher level is using this strat with any effectiveness? I'm pretty sure MVP does the same thing but with seige tanks as well.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 144
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
|
Buchan
Canada184 Posts
I'm wondering if anyone at a higher level is using this strat with any effectiveness? I'm pretty sure MVP does the same thing but with seige tanks as well. | ||
|
KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
| ||
|
KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
| ||
|
rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 09 2013 09:32 Pursuit_ wrote: To be honest it's best to mix up your play and use aggressive / all-in builds a good portion of your games. You still mostly want play 'standard macro' games, but learning all the aggressive builds and knowing how to execute them properly will make you a better overall player. I know a few players in mid-high masters who are excellent macro players but are absolutely horrible at hitting timings and/or improvising, and in a BoX I almost always crush them by alternating greedy play and aggressive / all-in builds even though they're around the same ladder rank as me simply because they're so predictable. edit: and if you see Zerg playing geedy unless you already have the infrastructure to put on aggression (i.e. pre-meditated aggression) your best bet is to try to match their greed. Cut units in favor of CC's, Upgrades and Infrastructure. Firstly, timings aren't exclusive to attacks. Timings are just general points in time where you suddenly achieve some kind of immediate advantage with just your build. "Macro" based games are centered around these timings as the goal of a mid-game build is to transition into a late-game with some kind of critical tech, economic, or army advantage, not always a fast win condition. It is just out-right false that timing oriented attacks make you better at the vague skill of "executing timings" MORE SO than any other standard build, because execution is literally just perfect macro mechanics, and all builds require it with varying degrees of length when defining where a build "ends." As for learning other "aggressive" builds, they do make you a better player, but unless you're actively competing in bo3's/tournaments, or are at such a high level (gm+) on ladder that you chain queue against the same person often, you get no benefit at all from multiple builds -- infact, it will detract from your play if you aren't completely solid in your ability to execute any standard build. It simply introduces more variables to deal with ontop of the ones you likely haven't dealt with yet, slowing down your advancement in both areas. In a perfect world where you have infinite time, this is definitely something every player should shoot for. But not everyone does. Time is spent much more optimally chugging through one solid style and playing solid macro games, rather than over-extending yourself and limiting your exposure to critical skills in the mid-late game such as, ironically in opposition to your statement, decision making. In your scenario, the rating is irrelevant. If your friends stuck with their same builds and practiced them the same amount of time with equal efficiency as you did practicing multiple aggro builds to meta game them, they would inevitably surpass you. | ||
|
Gantritor
Italy112 Posts
I lose even to platinum protoss player, it is embarassing. I don't know what to do. I always had poor TvP (In WOL I had 30%), but now in hots with PO that gives the protoss the ability of dodge any medivac timings, I don't know what to do. I tried to play mech, but they just go for immortal air composition into mass expand, and they crush you. The main difficult that I find are: 1) So fucking hard to scout allin: they have like at least 5 very effective allin, different (and difficult) to scout (proxy oracle, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate blinkers, proxy robo, dt openings more or less allinish). 2) Impossible to harass: medivac timings work 1 game over 10, and even if it works you cannot harass mineral lines anymore due to PO. 3) You need to play risky, because you want to be greedy to stay ahead. You lose to any random timing (2-2 zea archon - I guess impossible to hold if unscouted, colossus timings, stormshit timings). 4) Micro vs toss is incredibly hard with respect other match ups. I have VERY good split micro in TvZ, and I mean very good. Always had very good micro vs banelings. But I cannot micro an army vs toss storm and zealots. They just do not seem to die. Never. Ever. I micro quite decently ghosts, but usually my army get amoved anyway even if I hit the perfect carpet EMPs. 5) A bit of whine, protoss feel easier to play, just random amove and a couple of storm. I tried cheese, but with PO they do not work anymore. At the moment I am currently quitting the ladder game vs toss, it is useless to play vs protoss for me. I just get mad and it destroys my spirit for other matches. In this way, at least I keep a positive mindset for TvT (90%, lol) and TvZ (65%). In my clan they suggest me to go at least 11/11. | ||
|
NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
Try to play your build orders on spot, don't get supply stuck (<20seconds) and your games will look different. | ||
|
Jay Arell
Norway33 Posts
| ||
|
NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 09 2013 18:35 Jay Arell wrote: How do you spot when a zerg is going roach baneling all in off 3 bases?? :O What roach/bane? SoulKey 1-1 roach bane with saturation at 3rd (11:30), Roach/bane no saturation at third? Roach bane with melee upgrades? Its really hard to spot, but I would suggestion hellions to keep an eye on saturation and try to spot evo chambers / roach warren. Try to scan at 9-9:30 to see if roaches pop out. Its hard to call of they will play allin, poke or play a style like snute or hyun. :x | ||
|
MTAC
103 Posts
How do you spot when a zerg is going roach baneling all in off 3 bases?? :O If it's a relatively early push, you can't "know" except with a lucky scan. Although, building an early medivac and speedboosting through the zerg bases to scout is kind of cool at this timing. But you can guess with a few things. - Does he stopped mining gas after the first 100? You can sometimes scout it with your SCV scout. - Evo chamber to wall off. Are they researching something ? Poke with your hellions. - Is 3rd base saturated? Poke with your hellions ? If the answer is no for all 3. You can expect a roach/bane bust. If it's a later push. As in any match-up, you have to constantly check your opponnent upgrades. If you see 0/1 on any unit (ling or roach) And when you re-check it's still the case (so not a wrong timing of 10/20 sec delay between the ups). Then the bust is coming later and harder. It can even be some "macro push" Hyun style. | ||
|
Sissors
1395 Posts
If I do quite some damage with reapers/hellions early game, and zerg goes mutas, should I with mech: Try to use that damage and do a midgame push (at which point he masses roaches and I don't have enough siege tanks). Go to 200/200, and give him time to get ahead of me again. I can try hellbat drops, but with mutas out that usually is quite suicidal. Just go for 4M instead? And question 2, what to do with swarmhosts? Assuming he has some backup and I cant just drop hellbats on top of them. I can hold them off with siege tanks, but compared to a few months ago zergs figured out swarmhosts actually got quite decent mobility, and if I just hold them off with siege tanks I am constantly scanning to find out where he burrows next. If I try to push between waves he just spawns wave, unburrows, runs back, and burrows when next wave is ready. | ||
|
TheBaLinOne
Germany16 Posts
Here is a replay of mine against this push: http://drop.sc/353375 | ||
|
BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On August 09 2013 19:12 Sissors wrote: Question regarding TvZ: If I do quite some damage with reapers/hellions early game, and zerg goes mutas, should I with mech: Try to use that damage and do a midgame push (at which point he masses roaches and I don't have enough siege tanks). Go to 200/200, and give him time to get ahead of me again. I can try hellbat drops, but with mutas out that usually is quite suicidal. Just go for 4M instead? And question 2, what to do with swarmhosts? Assuming he has some backup and I cant just drop hellbats on top of them. I can hold them off with siege tanks, but compared to a few months ago zergs figured out swarmhosts actually got quite decent mobility, and if I just hold them off with siege tanks I am constantly scanning to find out where he burrows next. If I try to push between waves he just spawns wave, unburrows, runs back, and burrows when next wave is ready. For the 1st question: Actually the Zerg shouldn't be able to do both Mutas and Raoches, if you did good damage early. So I'd recommend a midgame push with a mix of Tanks, Hellbats, Mines and a few Thors... if possible, add Ravens. If he really goes Muta heavy, the Mines should do a good job and the Thors should clean up the rest. If he goes mass Roach, try to get a good position with the Tanks and protect them with the Hellbats and Thors. The Mines should do a decent job here too. I'm no friend of Hellbat drops either for the same reason. Mutas make them a coinflip. If you want to go up to 200/200, I'd rather recommend BF Hellion harass to keep him from getting ahead again. Regarding Swarmhosts (2nd question): As long as you can hold them with Siegetanks, you are fine for now. I'd recommend Ravens as they also detect. Then throw Seeker Missiles or Auto Turrets at them, while your Tanks take care of the Locust waves. It's actually no problem, if he burrows, sends wave, unburrows and runs. As long as you see where they run and don't get yourself flanked, you can unsiege and run behind them between waves. Push him back to his base. Eventually he'll run out of space to run. You can also try to run-by Locust waves with Hellions to get to the running SHs. Then run away as soon as they burrow and spawn new ones. Hellions are quite good against Locusts btw, because they can kite them and burn them quite fast. | ||
|
ZergFluid
United States6 Posts
| ||
|
mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On August 10 2013 02:38 ZergFluid wrote: Is there any mini-game you can use to practice ghost usage and control? Dargleins Multitasking Trainer | ||
|
Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On August 09 2013 19:15 TheBaLinOne wrote: How can I hold the 2/2 timing with roach/hydra at ~160 ? I have some problems defending this push, it seems so strong to me without tanks and if you doesnt spot it. Here is a replay of mine against this push: http://drop.sc/353375 Master Terran here. I don't know if you actually can hold it without tanks, maybe if you get a lot of bunkers but I'm not sure. If you don't wanna waste a scan and see that the roach warren is researching there are actually two reads you can use to spot it and then react accordingly. 1) I would get suspicious if I don't see any lings at all with my reapers or hellions (not so sure about this one though) 2) If you would have clicked the queen at 9:30 when you were killing creep tumors you would have seen that +1 range was researched and this read is a roach/hydra timing for sure! | ||
|
Matta
United States116 Posts
| ||
|
Aquila-
516 Posts
On August 10 2013 07:32 Matta wrote: So I tried the forgg TvT build last night (nothing too intense just a couple games against AI to test out my timings and how it felt) and I gotta say I didn't really like it? I don't know why it just didn't feel comfortable for me. I think I like bio a lot more, but the sense I get is that TvT generally goes more mech play over bio. How should I play out a TvT if I go bio? Just lots of drops to pick off as much as I can with marauders and Medivacs? Usually mech player are pretty well defended against drops. You can try to attack 2 or more places at once and run away if you see his army, but good players wont really be caught off guard. The best way is to just take as many bases as possible, and then use that economy to go BC/raven/viking and overpower him in the sky. | ||
|
Olferen
United States39 Posts
Which style is more powerful? Marine Marauder Medivac? vs. Marine Tank Medivac? I always thought tanks were the core of TvT, yet it seems I get destroyed everytime against Marine Marauder Medivac. Is this just a composition win or am I supposed to be more passive against MMM? | ||
|
krooked
376 Posts
| ||
|
Olferen
United States39 Posts
On August 10 2013 09:55 krooked wrote: marine tank medivac > marine marauder medivac. You need to position your tanks better. With marine tank you have mobility AND positional advantage (you are stronger in a head on fight if you are sieged). You can also siege up his base, expands, doomdrops are more threatening etc. MMM against mech is good, MMM against tank marine is bad. Thank you, I just tried it and abused the mobility, it really helped thank you :D | ||
| ||
so what should I go for? The standard in todays metagame or change it up so I actually win / don't end up behind because P/Z are greedy?
