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On August 14 2013 05:25 Striker.superfreunde wrote:
Lately i really get frustrated with a special TvZ build
I open reaper expansion into hellion push, but in some cases, even if my attack does a lot of eco damage, i lose the game.
I scout baneling nest and roach warren on two base (his) and put up a though defense wall with an eye on his third.
There are some roach/bane in front of my base (two base roach/bling?) and if he scouts my wall in, they just besiege me, or otherwise just busts me. If he doesn't attack, he hatches at least 60 supply of +2 mutas and take a third behind, while i struggle to get my third.
I came to the conclusion that i could go for bio with some thors mixed in blindly, but that's not how starcraft should be played.
Any ideas or fellow sufferers?
The purpose of hellions in TvZ isn't to do economic damage, it's to presure zerg into making units, to deny creep spread, to gain map control, to scout any roach all in, and to deny baneling busts. Most important of all, the main purpose of hellions to let you take the third expansion safely usually between 9-11 minutes, and allows you to fortify your third with bunkers and depot wall before a big zerg attack hits.
If you do not take your third before 13 minutes and do not do any damage, then it should be almost impossible for you to take a third against a good zerg, they will have fully droned up, and will be producing constant lings/roaches and muta harass keeps you in your base. Burrowed lings and overlord creep will make it extremely annoying to take your expansion.
After you take your third, feel free to suicide your hellions into a mineral line since they're pretty much useless after that. If you want to make an effective attack wtih hellions, then go a proper 2 base timing, ie hellion marauder or mass blueflame hellion runby.
This is why I personally use the hellion banshee 3cc build, either 2 banshee with cloak or 1 banshee 1 tank, this is the safest way to take the third and transition into the late game, and forces opponent to make mutas, in which case you can prepare accordingly.
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On August 14 2013 07:54 Striker.superfreunde wrote:
@ Matta, bromalon, whatson
Thank you so far. I will upload replays tomorrow evening.
Window mines + bio is hard to execute for me. But i'm on it and try to involve more of them lately (again). Just step by step.
As i'm not very confident in wm, i'm afraid a marauder heavy play style lacks in anti air.
As soon as i scout spire/mutas, i get down turrets, wm (occasionally), increase marine production and try to keep harressment (drops) going on.
I see i can't avoid wm any longer, so a few questions ahead. On two base, i guess i should have ~ 4 - 6 rax, 1 starport+reactor and one fac + reactor? Maybe even one fac + techlab? And whats the right answer to mass mutas then?
If it all comes down to proper wm usage, there is a long road to go for a casual like me
I feel you, man. I only won one game last night on ladder (out of 5), but it was because of WM play against Zerg that allowed me to shred flood upon flood of lings and banes, and allowed me to stay mobile enough to keep the Zerg back. Granted, he went infestor over muta which I think was a mistake, but that WM play seems to me to be essential against Zerg.
as a person who has difficulty changing mind sets and being adaptive in gameplan, what seemed to work for me was going 2 fac, one with initial reactor and then another one with tech lab and swap that out once you need to. I was fine with 3 at a time WM, but your mileage may vary.
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What kinda comp are you guys going if not bio mine? WMs aren't even very hard to use
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On August 14 2013 08:52 Whatson wrote:
What kinda comp are you guys going if not bio mine? WMs aren't even very hard to use
As a hellbat bio terran (not lame drops, just marine hellbat medic style) prior to patch I was raping zergs. After patch, having never used widow mines offensively...it did take some time getting used to them.
Once they have drilling claws, I treat them like ghosts in TvP. They lead my army. If the zerg rushes in, widow mines ALWAYS get down if you keep them semi spread as they move, and ALWAYS land shots.
It took some time, but it really, really did get a lot better once you realize how to use them, and what placements etc.
As for a different TvZ opening.... try copying that opening I used in those 2 replays, and the VOD, a few pages back... 2 pages I think. It's a 3 reaper -> fe -> factory -> 2 more reapers -> 3rd CC -> 2 hellions -> TL + Reactor on raxes -> 2 hellions -> Marauder/2marine cycles, with widow mines to follow. Drop double ebay, then 1 more rax and starport. Take third, drop 2 more rax, and 2nd fac, and get armory + 2/2 and drilling claws.
Working amazingly well for me. Instead of 2 reaper 6 hellion, you are on the map with 5 reapers/4 hellions. The first 3 reapers always roll through lings, and with box bounce micro you can snipe a queen with ease...or if they pull back just target his drones and 2 shot them down.
If you want a different aggressive, yet still 3 OC opening, try it out. (Not directed at you whatson, was just adding to what you had said prior)
It's a byun opening he did in TvT... It's timed so that you get supply, reactor + 2nd rax done, and have 150/150 at the exact same time.
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On August 13 2013 11:34 KingofGods wrote:
If you have been watching ForGGs stream it seems as though people have figured out how to beat ForGGs TvT build: gas first cloak banshee. It hits well before viking is out. He eventually gets a raven out but everything is already dead.
So in the off-chance your open is running ForGG, you should use a build that's damn near a build order loss to any other standard Terran opening?
This might work against ForGG since his opponents *know* what he's going to run, but on ladder I don't see this being the answer.
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Recently my mass viking / raven compositions have been getting destroyed by mass thors lol. I'm talking like a 200 food thor army. I just never seem to have enough tanks.
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On August 14 2013 11:57 KingofGods wrote:
Recently my mass viking / raven compositions have been getting destroyed by mass thors lol. I'm talking like a 200 food thor army. I just never seem to have enough tanks.
gogogo 200food marauder switch ahah
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Can't when I went mech the whole way. I think maybe I transition to air too fast. I usually only have about 5 factories before I start making starports.
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On August 14 2013 11:57 KingofGods wrote:
Recently my mass viking / raven compositions have been getting destroyed by mass thors lol. I'm talking like a 200 food thor army. I just never seem to have enough tanks.
You don`t need to transition to air to beat mass thors. Just make tanks and hellbats and during the battle A-click the weak thors. If you don`t do that, all of them will survive.
When you do transition to air just get a couple (or 1) raven for pdd and then go bcs.
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Ok so I just learned you can upgrade drilling claws... Can I have lost any games to this? Is it an essential upgrade? Didn't even know it existed lol.
Still running into cloakshee into 1-1-1 all in and losing to it. I think the key is to meet them in the middle, but should I go like 2-3 turrets before his banshee hits in main and just meet him in the middle of the map with my whole army?
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On August 14 2013 11:51 nyccine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 11:34 KingofGods wrote:
If you have been watching ForGGs stream it seems as though people have figured out how to beat ForGGs TvT build: gas first cloak banshee. It hits well before viking is out. He eventually gets a raven out but everything is already dead. So in the off-chance your open is running ForGG, you should use a build that's damn near a build order loss to any other standard Terran opening? This might work against ForGG since his opponents *know* what he's going to run, but on ladder I don't see this being the answer.
I actually can't even follow what you are trying to say.......
Regardless, gas first openings is VERY common in TvT on ladder.
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On August 14 2013 13:56 krooked wrote:
Ok so I just learned you can upgrade drilling claws... Can I have lost any games to this? Is it an essential upgrade? Didn't even know it existed lol.
Still running into cloakshee into 1-1-1 all in and losing to it. I think the key is to meet them in the middle, but should I go like 2-3 turrets before his banshee hits in main and just meet him in the middle of the map with my whole army?
In TvZ this is pretty much an essential upgrade. I would compare it to stim for bio. Mines are important in late game TvT too so the upgrade is also important for that.
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Lol stop over exaggerating stuff kingofgods.
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On August 14 2013 14:00 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 13:56 krooked wrote:
Ok so I just learned you can upgrade drilling claws... Can I have lost any games to this? Is it an essential upgrade? Didn't even know it existed lol.
Still running into cloakshee into 1-1-1 all in and losing to it. I think the key is to meet them in the middle, but should I go like 2-3 turrets before his banshee hits in main and just meet him in the middle of the map with my whole army? In TvZ this is pretty much an essential upgrade. I would compare it to stim for bio. Mines are important in late game TvT too so the upgrade is also important for that.
No way man. Flash doesn`t get the upgrade at all. The double reactor factory with no tech lab is popular. More common is getting the tech lab on your second factory. That`s always after 5 rax and often after 7 or 9 rax.
In tvt, it`s pretty useless. I`d rather have a second armory over burrow upgrade any day...
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On August 14 2013 14:42 Whatson wrote:
Lol stop over exaggerating stuff kingofgods.
Stimpack increases attack speed by 50%
Drilling Claws makes mines burrow and fire three times as fast (ie. 300%!!) So actually.......from a purely numbers standpoint drilling claws is actually BETTER than stim pack!
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I feel like I can move my army a lot better with the drilling claws upgrade. As I don't have the micro of Flash, it helps me a lot, but if you have a playstyle and micro that is working for you, do it your own way. As long as you're fielding enough against Zerg ling/bane/muta, that's what's really important. (Don't keep running your bio into hydra/roach armies like me, an idiot. Get siege tanks.)
Also, yeah, you don't usually get that as one of the first upgrades, I would never have it before I get combat shield and stim, it's definitely a mid-game tech play, most likely when your opponent has gone for those mutas.
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On August 14 2013 15:13 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 14:42 Whatson wrote:
Lol stop over exaggerating stuff kingofgods. Stimpack increases attack speed by 50% Drilling Claws makes mines burrow and fire three times as fast (ie. 300%!!) So actually.......from a purely numbers standpoint drilling claws is actually BETTER than stim pack!
The wm still has to wait to fire again. It makes no difference in its attack. Just the ability to get in good positions.
Ever seen a Terran player without stim? I settle my case...
It`s the ``terran help me thread``, not the post wrong info to confuse Terran players thread. Sorry, couldn`t resist :O
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Because there are a lot more bio than widow mines...............
But as we can see from the numbers..........in equal numbers the upgrade for widow mines is actually better than the stim upgrade for bio.
One zealot beats one marine. But if you have a lot of marines obviously they are going to beat the zealot. But that doesn't change the fact that one zealot beats one marine.
If you read my original post on the subject (there seems to be a big issue of that lately) I said "the [drilling claws] upgrade is comparable to stim for bio".
The stim upgrade is good for bio
The drilling claws upgrade is good for widow mines
I don't see what the confusion here is........
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Lategame tvt mass widow mines rape air switches.
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Nvm, I don't want to get banned for pulling the league card
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EPT
