|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On August 15 2013 03:43 krooked wrote:http://drop.sc/354184 heres the replay. I haven't looked through it yet so I'm expecting that he took 4 hidden bases or something.. Anyways, I am still very bad at this game, but I think I held his push correctly. My follow up was poor, I'm sure of that much.. But just general help on my play would be appreciated. I am thinking about just making a thread because I am completely lost as to what I'm supposed to do in basically all match ups. I outmacro my opponent almost every game, but I always manage to lose. I'm just downright retarded as to how to play this game past 10 minutes, and its even worse if something unexpected happens (as in this scenario in the replay).
Will watch and post analysis in a bit.
- Slightly delayed Stimpack
- Extra bunker needed at the ledge
- You build has been thrown off, delayed factory and engineering bay means delayed timing with medivacs, which is were your counter-swing will be.
- Lift CC into main and then you only have to worry about one location to defend.
- Should have moved out with medivacs asap to put pressure on and get map control, because your build was delayed your timing window to do damage is less than what it would be if your execution under pressure was better.
- Commit far too hard to frontal push, get caught in forcefields + photon canon, and lose a major portion of your army. Go back to your original Mid-game TvP gameplan, threaten drops, take map control, deny 3rd of protoss as much as possible while securing your own. Imagine how much more damage you could have done if you dropped one in the main to pull the protoss out of position, opening up maximum damage at the natural.
- At the time of this attack, you are only on 37 workers, compared to Protoss' 44, I know you lost around 18 during the attack, but I don't think your worker production after that was as good as it could have been.
- After you lose the first engagement at his nexus, you pull everything back, relinquishing map control completely, no spotting marines at Watchers 1+2 AND his 3rd.
- You look far too overeager to end the game, as a result you lose your second major engagement by a-moving your bio into his natural, again. I seen no multipronged attacks yet.
- Imagine how much better you would have done if you knew exactly the time he tried to take his third, drop into main --> distract --> snipe third. Rinse, repeat.
- You almost get the third but don't target correctly, again, imagine the damage you would have done if you timed attacking the third with a drop at the same time.
- Could have taken a fourth earlier in response to Protoss taking a third.
- Lose your army being overeager to kill Protoss army, noticing a trend here? ;D
- At roughly 23 minutes, the first drop occurs, a little bit late, but you do hardly anything with it apart from killing a few warpins and dying to AoE, you could have used the drop to snipe tech, set your main army up for a better position, trick Protoss ball into pulling back, opening up a new area to attack, etc.
- 4th is late, Protoss is mining from his first, 4 Base Protoss is kinda scary!
- Could've repaired bunker at your third when Zealots warp there
- You seem very hellbent on attacking where the Protoss IS, try to do the opposite. (Into a choke as well.)
- You lose your 4th as you didnt have a bunker, or scout for pylon (and you knew there was a pulon because Zealots where at your third.)
- Still no 3-3 at 28 Minutes, you get easily rolled by a 3-2-3 Protoss ball.
If there's anything I said you don't get, ask away.
|
On August 15 2013 04:02 KingofGods wrote:
I can't remember off hand, but I don't believe he can blink right into your main from the low ground there. He needs to get onto that ledge first.
Notice he built a ton of immortals. He doesn't actually want immortals, so you should have considered that a win because at that point his tech is very delayed. So now we are in the usual mid-late game situation but now he has less tech.
At the 15 min mark push he still had no aoe so if you pulled scvs you would have crushed him. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and I have full map vision but yeah. I really think that was a mistake to dart in and get your army stuck between the nexus and the cliff. Still out in the open and pick away at the nexus, forcing him to come out to you.
It looks like in the engagements you start out with a nice spread but you end up clumping them together, possibly because you are trying to focus fire the collosi. If you want to do that, grab a few units on the sides (ideally marauders), and dart in with this group while the rest stay spread. That usually is enough to force his collosi back.
Just watched the 19 min fight. Yeah, you essentially move commanded your entire bio army to try and target one collosi in the back. I say move commanded even thought they were on attack command because as they try to close the distance on that collosi, they aren't fighting and getting ripped apart by his zealots and stalkers.
Unless the collosi is out of position and you can one shot it, you should be kiting backwards away from his lasers. Once the zealots thin out then feel free to attack to collosi.
Thanks man. So basically, I would've won, or at least gotten in a VERY winnable position had I not screwed up micro i.e focused too much on the colossus?
|
Yes. You had more than enough to win any of those fights.
Here are the last 2 TvP games I played.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3869655
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3869656
The openings were different than your game (these guys opened dts) but after the harass was over the game became the same situation as yours basically. One game I was actually in far worse shape than you, going down to single digit scvs I believe. The map was neo planet S for both games so the protoss was actually able to be a lot more defensive than your opponents. I remember one game specifically I had a collosi down to red health for SO long but I stayed discipline in not darting in to pick it off while losing my forces.
Your opponent was actually pretty smart in building a big army instead of trying to tech too fast. My opponents suffered from trying to tech too quickly and not having enough units. The "oh crap I need collisi or high templars RIGHT NOW" is actually the typical ladder response.
|
@mau5mat thanks man, very detailed.
yeah I was basically feeling that his all in had failed and it was time for me to just a-move him and take my win.. I guess I can't just stop using my head when these situations occur. At what point do you feel I go from being ahead to behind? My first engagement?
|
On August 15 2013 04:30 krooked wrote:
@mau5mat thanks man, very detailed.
yeah I was basically feeling that his all in had failed and it was time for me to just a-move him and take my win.. I guess I can't just stop using my head when these situations occur. At what point do you feel I go from being ahead to behind? My first engagement?
I often feel like the moment I squash an all in that I need to rush over and try to take out his base. But I have recently been just trying to stop them from taking expansions while taking my 3rd or 4th. Basically choking them out. That's just my thoughts.
Day 9 says it best when you are behind try not to get more behind. When you are ahead just try to make sure you stay ahead.
|
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On August 15 2013 04:30 krooked wrote:
@mau5mat thanks man, very detailed.
yeah I was basically feeling that his all in had failed and it was time for me to just a-move him and take my win.. I guess I can't just stop using my head when these situations occur. At what point do you feel I go from being ahead to behind? My first engagement?
No worries.
You SHOULD have been ahead with crisp macro, you delayed your build a lot due to being under pressure, this delayed your counter-swing timing with 2 Medivacs/+1/Stim/CS, which is the best time for you to do equal damage to put yourself even further head.
The turning point was when you lose the army you meant to equalise with, engagement 1.
Artosis says, ''When ahead, get more ahead.'' In this game there are two main routes to achieve this, you can get an edge by aggression (doing damage) or with economy (playing greedy).
You tried the aggressive route, and it backfired due to your execution.
|
On August 15 2013 03:43 krooked wrote:http://drop.sc/354184 heres the replay. I haven't looked through it yet so I'm expecting that he took 4 hidden bases or something.. Anyways, I am still very bad at this game, but I think I held his push correctly. My follow up was poor, I'm sure of that much.. But just general help on my play would be appreciated. I am thinking about just making a thread because I am completely lost as to what I'm supposed to do in basically all match ups. I outmacro my opponent almost every game, but I always manage to lose. I'm just downright retarded as to how to play this game past 10 minutes, and its even worse if something unexpected happens (as in this scenario in the replay).
Was held, but poorly. Control was definitely not ideal, and you lost -alot- of free SCV's, especially when you either forgot about, or chose to leave your units in your main while he focused down a bunker in your nat, yet you committed SCV's to repair it anyways and they all died; 13, for a total of 18 SCV's lost. Your follow up was poor, and it was mainly because of this. Your entire build is basically 2 and a half minutes behind trying to rebuild those SCV's now, which slows down the necessary infrastructure to simply overwhelm an opponent who should have been massively behind in economy and tech. That, and your medivacs were also pretty late too.
The rest of the game is kind of pointless to analyze past this point because your opponent should not have survived a follow-up push from an adequate hold against a blink all-in. Solution is to save your SCV's and send them back to your main if your natural is sacked next time.
edit: As for not knowing what you're doing past 10 minutes, at diamond you should really begin extending your builds and game plan all the way to the late game, or up to 18 minutes. This is where the average game ends, when one player simply kills the other with better execution of a thoroughly complete build.
|
@rd I haven't really been playing for that long so I just go off my "mechanics" from the past.. Can't really find any writeup about how to approach each match up for every part of the game.. Basically this is what I do as of right now:
TvT:
- I either do the ForGG build or w/e its called, or I do reaper exp into 1:1:1 with banshee / or fast tanks depending. This seems weak to the ForGG build tho. From there on out I kind of just walk up to my opponent, siege my tanks and win from there. I lose to cloakshee build and doom drops.
TvZ:
Used to do the cc first but I die to opponents being aggressive so I prefer reaper exp > hellions > 3OC. I try to contain with hellions and later mass marine/mine/medivac hoping to catch his transition into ultras. Been finding success with going for his fourth base and just drilling there with some drops if the situation calls for it, but mainly just pressuring heavily at one place. I die to early aggression, ultra switch and/or poor control.
TvP:
Big maps cc first hope I don't die, do the good ol medivac push and then lose lategame.
Smaller maps I prefer marine/widowmine drop. I find that the earlier I start trading with Protoss, the better my chances are later. I have found success in just YOLO-dropping everywhere. Lategame obviously I am adding ghosts etc but to be honest I just sit at my base, waiting to get crushed by his army. I don't really find any success in dropping past 13 minute mark.
So what I'm asking is, should I have concrete builds, with specific goals from early game to lategame? I'm winging it from 10 minutes out, but I almost feel thats how terran is played since I have to react to my opponent in so many cases. All I know is to get upgrades, add facilities and make stuff while expanding 
|
A lot of people are of the opinion that you can get to Master with just good mechanics and it doesn't matter what build you use or what units you make. They try to prove this with a high GM player going up the ladder while massing something absurd like queens or something. I've seen a player like Polt beat a Master protoss by simplying building scvs and mines.
One thing they fail to mention is that GM players have far far better decision making skills than your average ladder player. Knowing when to attack, when to fall back, when to expo, etc. is a huge determining factor to wins.
That being said, good mechanics is always good.
|
Well mechanics certaintly helps, my friends are still in bronze/silver, but I think understanding the game is far more important. I get crushed by players with 65apm, while I am upwards 200+/-. Being fast doesn't really count if you can't apply it effectively. I think mechanics played a larger role in bw in comparison. There is just so much damage happening and specific responses to what the other player is doing, and the decisions you make outweighs macro and just general mechanics in this game IMO (up until a point, obviously. With all else being equal, mechanics is very important ofcourse)
|
On August 15 2013 05:06 krooked wrote:@rd I haven't really been playing for that long so I just go off my "mechanics" from the past.. Can't really find any writeup about how to approach each match up for every part of the game.. Basically this is what I do as of right now: TvT: - I either do the ForGG build or w/e its called, or I do reaper exp into 1:1:1 with banshee / or fast tanks depending. This seems weak to the ForGG build tho. From there on out I kind of just walk up to my opponent, siege my tanks and win from there. I lose to cloakshee build and doom drops. TvZ: Used to do the cc first but I die to opponents being aggressive so I prefer reaper exp > hellions > 3OC. I try to contain with hellions and later mass marine/mine/medivac hoping to catch his transition into ultras. Been finding success with going for his fourth base and just drilling there with some drops if the situation calls for it, but mainly just pressuring heavily at one place. I die to early aggression, ultra switch and/or poor control. TvP: Big maps cc first hope I don't die, do the good ol medivac push and then lose lategame. Smaller maps I prefer marine/widowmine drop. I find that the earlier I start trading with Protoss, the better my chances are later. I have found success in just YOLO-dropping everywhere. Lategame obviously I am adding ghosts etc but to be honest I just sit at my base, waiting to get crushed by his army. I don't really find any success in dropping past 13 minute mark. So what I'm asking is, should I have concrete builds, with specific goals from early game to lategame? I'm winging it from 10 minutes out, but I almost feel thats how terran is played since I have to react to my opponent in so many cases. All I know is to get upgrades, add facilities and make stuff while expanding
Terrans definitely don't wing it. Being reactionary doesn't change that, either. You should have a realistic and solid build where, if in a perfect world, you could simply execute unhindered. Only after that point do you start playing reactionary when your opponent forces you to make small deviations. But you're still going for the same goal -- just taking a slightly longer route to get there safely. You either see colossus or ht's/archons, so you add a second starport or ghost academy to deal with them, but you're still chugging along like you normally would after you take that precaution.
Terrans are normally the aggressor in the non-mirrors, so there is an element of decision making separate to your late game goal in how you use your units, but the build beneath that doesn't change -- it's designed to give you optimal production to supply that aggression, and it is literally the product of perfect macro mechanics, extruded into a form viable for the metagame.
|
Is this something I can read a guide about or should I just try to get a hold of replays from pro players, analyze + play a lot? Thx for the help btw
|
On August 15 2013 05:20 krooked wrote:
Well mechanics certaintly helps, my friends are still in bronze/silver, but I think understanding the game is far more important. I get crushed by players with 65apm, while I am upwards 200+/-. Being fast doesn't really count if you can't apply it effectively. I think mechanics played a larger role in bw in comparison. There is just so much damage happening and specific responses to what the other player is doing, and the decisions you make outweighs macro and just general mechanics in this game IMO (up until a point, obviously. With all else being equal, mechanics is very important ofcourse)
Let's make something clear here: Having high apm DOES NOT mean having good mechanics. For example you can hotkey an scv and your CC at the start of the game and just spam 3,4, the entire game without building any more SCVs or anything else all game and have a very high apm. That doesn't mean you have good mechanics.
Having higher apm gives you the ability to have better mechanics than a person at lower apm, but you still have to execute effectively like you said.
|
Yes, obviously simply spamming buttons wouldn't really help at all. But I'm of course not doing that to get my relatively high APM, I am actually doing things with it - mostly making stuff. Which is why I often find myself having big big supply leads in games but end up losing anyways because better macro does not equal better player
|
On August 15 2013 05:33 krooked wrote:
Is this something I can read a guide about or should I just try to get a hold of replays from pro players, analyze + play a lot? Thx for the help btw
Find one player who you want to emulate, particularly one who has a lot of vods/replays available. Try to find as many games from him as you can of him doing the same strategy. Compare the timing of his SCV count, when he maxes out, when his upgrades finish, in what order he gets upgrades, when he attacks based off of them, how much SCV's he has every time he adds on extra infrastructure, etc. Sometimes a player may have two completely different openers, but he eventually falls back in line with the original plan and ultimately the same position entering the late game he does in every other game.
|
So how do you guys engage Protoss lategame, seems pretty much un-winnable. You emp and snipe 16 templars and the remaining 2 get of their storms and your dead as Zealots bury you.
|
Yesterday i told i will upload some tvz replays... i don't do it. I have watched them now and realise that i just played terribad.
Sorry for all the trouble 
But still a few good things learned:
- hellions not primary for eco damage
- learn to use widow mines.
- scout
- 60 supply mutas don't come out of two base...
Thank you guys again 
So, Zerg,  , i see throug your game!
|
http://drop.sc/354197
Here's is a replay pretty much personifying why I hate TvP. I feel like my macro is fairly on point and I get my upgrades to 2-2 as fast as the protoss does, yet my ghosts are just barely too late to hold his 2 base attack with 1 collosus and like 9 HT's. I scan early to see that he got the twilight quick, expecting a chargelot timing, but he threw down the robo-bay, so i start to make vikings.
Since my drop did like no damage, i wanted to poke at the front, but was surprised by the amount of zealots that were there, but I was happy with the trade.
I just don't quite understand how Protoss is able to not only get any tech, but also have the same upgrades as me at a vulnerable time.
I did get my 3rd CC at the fairly standard time, ~15 min, but that should not have really delayed me that much. I probably could have squeezed out ghosts earlier, but I didnt have a 100% confirmation on what tech he was committing too, and I was afraid to engage at his base knowing that Protoss is super easy to defend with, especially on 2base on SS.
Any advice on what I could have done better?
|
Standard 3rd timing is 10 mins, latest is 12 not 15 especially if you are 1 rax feing (no gas to slow you down). Basically as soon as your starport goes down, you should be making the decision of adding 2 more raxes or a 3rd cc. Both of these should occur, it's just a question of order.
Look at all that time you spent just chillinging outside his base (before you even attacked) where your minerals sky rocket to 1500 minerals. This directly a result of you not actually producing anything during that time and not having your 3rd cc up.
It seemed at the 14 min mark after you disengaged you said to yourself, "oh crap I have 1600 minerals I should throw up a CC". Imagine if you threw up that CC 1200 minerals ago.
Your drops don't have to do damage. A lot of times people just drop on the outskirts of their opponents base and pick off a pylon or two. Scouting is also a big reason why they drop. "Oh he's shooting lasers at me to defend drop so he has collosi".
Your factory saw his army move out so you should have been able to be more pre-spread then you were. Also only like 6 of your army was fighting at a time. He fought 6 of your bio, killed them off then moved onto the next pack of 6.
|
On August 15 2013 05:34 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 05:20 krooked wrote:
Well mechanics certaintly helps, my friends are still in bronze/silver, but I think understanding the game is far more important. I get crushed by players with 65apm, while I am upwards 200+/-. Being fast doesn't really count if you can't apply it effectively. I think mechanics played a larger role in bw in comparison. There is just so much damage happening and specific responses to what the other player is doing, and the decisions you make outweighs macro and just general mechanics in this game IMO (up until a point, obviously. With all else being equal, mechanics is very important ofcourse) Let's make something clear here: Having high apm DOES NOT mean having good mechanics. For example you can hotkey an scv and your CC at the start of the game and just spam 3,4, the entire game without building any more SCVs or anything else all game and have a very high apm. That doesn't mean you have good mechanics. Having higher apm gives you the ability to have better mechanics than a person at lower apm, but you still have to execute effectively like you said.
Very true. I have low as hell apm... blizz apm 130-160. Sc2gears, which I go off of, I'm around 150-190 max average. I trounce players with double my APM that are on the higher end of masters around 1500+ points.
APM is all about how effectively you use it. I may have 160 apm, but my EAPM is around 130-135... I bet (to the guy talking about having 200+/- apm) that your sc2gears eapm is around below 100.
On August 15 2013 05:38 krooked wrote:Yes, obviously simply spamming buttons wouldn't really help at all. But I'm of course not doing that to get my relatively high APM, I am actually doing things with it - mostly making stuff. Which is why I often find myself having big big supply leads in games but end up losing anyways because better macro does not equal better player
...mmmm you would have to have the worst micro possible to be losing with 'big big supply leads in games'... I would call bunk on that 'better macro' call.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
