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You also technically don't ever "need" a marauder to win. Heck, some mechers even show us you don't even "need" a marine to win. So actually.........for mechers they don't "need" stim, do they? As a mecher, which upgrade is better and more important for you, drilling claws or stim?
Yet, people still get marine and marauders and stim in games because they are good. The need of an upgrade or unit does not tell us whether the upgrade or unit is good or not. It just means they prefer to play a different style.
If you make a ton of widow mines, you might as well get the upgrade because it will pay for itself.
If you build a lot of banshees, you might as well get the cloak upgrade because it will pay for itself.
If you build a lot of stalkers, you might as well get the blink upgrade because it will pay for itself.
Is that enough examples?
Notice we aren't even mentioning the cost of the upgrade. At some threshold (different for every unit and upgrades), there exists a point where if you go beyond that amount the upgrade will pay for itself.
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On August 14 2013 15:13 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 14:42 Whatson wrote:
Lol stop over exaggerating stuff kingofgods. Stimpack increases attack speed by 50% Drilling Claws makes mines burrow and fire three times as fast (ie. 300%!!) So actually.......from a purely numbers standpoint drilling claws is actually BETTER than stim pack!
Without Drilling Claws it fires once every 40 seconds. With it it fires once every 40 seconds. where exactly did you get this 300% increase in fire rate from?
The delay on its inial is much shorter. That is definately useful. But it is ridiculous to compare it with stim. If you could upgrade your thors to have a 300% faster first shot (but exactly same dps), would you consider that an upgrade as good as stim? Of course not.
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On August 14 2013 16:40 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 15:13 KingofGods wrote:On August 14 2013 14:42 Whatson wrote:
Lol stop over exaggerating stuff kingofgods. Stimpack increases attack speed by 50% Drilling Claws makes mines burrow and fire three times as fast (ie. 300%!!) So actually.......from a purely numbers standpoint drilling claws is actually BETTER than stim pack! Without Drilling Claws it fires once every 40 seconds. With it it fires once every 40 seconds. where exactly did you get this 300% increase in fire rate from? The delay on its inial is much shorter. That is definately useful. But it is ridiculous to compare it with stim. If you could upgrade your thors to have a 300% faster first shot (but exactly same dps), would you consider that an upgrade as good as stim? Of course not.
It's in the tooltip Blizzard provides for us. Go ahead and hover over it sometime. 300% is not a number I pulled out of thin air. So not just "much shorter", but 300% shorter.
The burrow upgrade is not just useful for "firing the first shot". It also helps the survivability of the widow mine. A widow mine that survives longer will automatically have more dps, no? How many times has a terran suffered the consequence of a mine dieing while trying to burrow? Far too often I'm afraid.
If one widow mine shoots 300% faster than a 2nd widow mine, how is that the same dps??? If the first volley is 300% faster, then the 2nd volley will maintain that 300% faster speed. The 3rd volley will maintain that difference as well. The upgraded widow mine will always shoot it's volley before the unupgraded widow mine on it's 1st, 2nd, 3rd.........,nth shot.
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On August 14 2013 17:01 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 16:40 Sissors wrote:On August 14 2013 15:13 KingofGods wrote:On August 14 2013 14:42 Whatson wrote:
Lol stop over exaggerating stuff kingofgods. Stimpack increases attack speed by 50% Drilling Claws makes mines burrow and fire three times as fast (ie. 300%!!) So actually.......from a purely numbers standpoint drilling claws is actually BETTER than stim pack! Without Drilling Claws it fires once every 40 seconds. With it it fires once every 40 seconds. where exactly did you get this 300% increase in fire rate from? The delay on its inial is much shorter. That is definately useful. But it is ridiculous to compare it with stim. If you could upgrade your thors to have a 300% faster first shot (but exactly same dps), would you consider that an upgrade as good as stim? Of course not. It's in the tooltip Blizzard provides for us. Go ahead and hover over it sometime. 300% is not a number I pulled out of thin air. So not just "much shorter", but 300% shorter. The burrow upgrade is not just useful for "firing the first shot". It also helps the survivability of the widow mine. A widow mine that survives longer will automatically have more dps, no? How many times has a terran suffered the consequence of a mine dieing while trying to burrow? Far too often I'm afraid. If one widow mine shoots 300% faster than a 2nd widow mine, how is that the same dps??? If the first volley is 300% faster, then the 2nd volley will maintain that 300% faster speed. The 3rd volley will maintain that difference as well. The upgraded widow mine will always shoot it's volley faster than the unupgraded widow mine.
I don't think you understand the meaning of damage per second (DPS).
Of course a widow mine that survives longer will deal more damage eventually. But on average for each second, it will deal the exact same amount of damage.
Also it's not 300% shorter, it's 1/3 of the usual burrow time (1s instead of 3s). But that's just nitpicking on how you express yourself, we get what you mean!
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The problem is it remains completely different from stimpack upgrade. That boosts the firing rate. Drilling claws does nothing to boost the firing rate, it stays exactly the same. Only the initial delay is much shorter.
It is a useful upgrade, your widow mines are more mobile with it and the enemy has less time to pick them off before they burrow and can fire. But it is completely different from stimpack and doesn't provide an increase in dps. It is actually better comparable with the increase in speed stimpack gives than the increase in firing rate.
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Actually I do understand what Damage Per Second means.
I'm just going to make up some numbers here because I can't be bothered to find the actual numbers.
Say the unupgraded widow mine takes 3 seconds to burrow then fire and so the upgraded widow mine takes 1 second to burrow (again, just making up numbers I don't know what they actually are except the upgraded is 1/3 the unupgraded). And let's say the damage is 100 (just to make it simple)
So the unupgraded widow mine fires once in the first 3 seconds, twice in the first 33 seconds, 3 times in the first 63 seconds, etc.
That's a dps of 100/3 seconds or 33.3dps on the first volley, 200/33 or 6.06 dps for 2 volleys, 300/66 or 4.55 dps for the first 3 volleys
So the upgraded widow mine fires once in the first second, twice in the first 31 seconds, 3 times in the first 61 seconds, etc.
That's a dps of 100/1 seconds or 100dps on the first volley, 200/31 or 6.45 dps for 2 volleys, 300/61 or 4.91 dps for the first 3 volleys.
Let's put it in a nicer format so we can compare
33.33333333 6.060606061 4.761904762
100 6.451612903 4.918032787
As we can see, the dps (damage per second) of the upgraded widow mine is ALWAYS higher than the dps (damage per second) of the unupgraded widow mine.
Yes, of course the damage per second when both widow mines are on cooldown is exactly the same, it's 0!! Why exactly are we looking at that time? For the 0.0000000002 seconds the marine isn't firing, it has exactly the same dps as every unit in the game - surprise surprise, at 0!! As soon as the upgraded widow mine fires, it has more dps than the unupgraded widow mine.
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It only increases dps if there is detection, which isn't all the time.
Also: most fights don't last the duration of two mine hits
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On August 14 2013 17:34 KingofGods wrote:Actually I do understand what Damage Per Second means. I'm just going to make up some numbers here because I can't be bothered to find the actual numbers. Say the unupgraded widow mine takes 3 seconds to burrow then fire and so the upgraded widow mine takes 1 second to burrow (again, just making up numbers I don't know what they actually are except the upgraded is 1/3 the unupgraded). And let's say the damage is 100 (just to make it simple) So the unupgraded widow mine fires once in the first 3 seconds, twice in the first 33 seconds, 3 times in the first 63 seconds, etc. That's a dps of 100/3 seconds or 33.3dps on the first volley, 200/33 or 6.06 dps for 2 volleys, 300/66 or 4.55 dps for the first 3 volleys So the upgraded widow mine fires once in the first second, twice in the first 31 seconds, 3 times in the first 61 seconds, etc. That's a dps of 100/1 seconds or 100dps on the first volley, 200/31 or 6.45 dps for 2 volleys, 300/61 or 4.91 dps for the first 3 volleys. Let's put it in a nicer format so we can compare
33.33333333 6.060606061 4.761904762
100 6.451612903 4.918032787
As we can see, the dps (damage per second) of the upgraded widow mine is ALWAYS higher than the dps (damage per second) of the unupgraded widow mine. Yes, of course the damage per second when both widow mines are on cooldown is exactly the same, it's 0!! Why exactly are we looking at that time? For the 0.0000000002 seconds the marine isn't firing, it has exactly the same dps as every unit in the game - surprise surprise, at 0!! As soon as the upgraded widow mine fires, it has more dps than the unupgraded widow mine.
Dude, you are way too stubborn for your own good.
You can`t compare stim to the wm upgrade. Find one pro gamer who will agree with you and I`ll eat my words. Obviously, you don`t get stim when you mech. If you mech, when you get the wm upgrade is debatable. Note: NOT EVEN ONE korean mechs in tvz...
WM does 125 dmg + 40 splash every 40 in game seconds. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Widow_Mine Your examples make no sense.
You are correct that they will do slightly more damage over time, but that isn`t why it is researched. It allows you to use them offensively more easily in the mid game.
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On August 14 2013 17:34 KingofGods wrote:Actually I do understand what Damage Per Second means. I'm just going to make up some numbers here because I can't be bothered to find the actual numbers. Say the unupgraded widow mine takes 3 seconds to burrow then fire and so the upgraded widow mine takes 1 second to burrow (again, just making up numbers I don't know what they actually are except the upgraded is 1/3 the unupgraded). And let's say the damage is 100 (just to make it simple) So the unupgraded widow mine fires once in the first 3 seconds, twice in the first 33 seconds, 3 times in the first 63 seconds, etc. That's a dps of 100/3 seconds or 33.3dps on the first volley, 200/33 or 6.06 dps for 2 volleys, 300/66 or 4.55 dps for the first 3 volleys So the upgraded widow mine fires once in the first second, twice in the first 31 seconds, 3 times in the first 61 seconds, etc. That's a dps of 100/1 seconds or 100dps on the first volley, 200/31 or 6.45 dps for 2 volleys, 300/61 or 4.91 dps for the first 3 volleys. Let's put it in a nicer format so we can compare
33.33333333 6.060606061 4.761904762
100 6.451612903 4.918032787
As we can see, the dps (damage per second) of the upgraded widow mine is ALWAYS higher than the dps (damage per second) of the unupgraded widow mine. Yes, of course the damage per second when both widow mines are on cooldown is exactly the same, it's 0!! Why exactly are we looking at that time? For the 0.0000000002 seconds the marine isn't firing, it has exactly the same dps as every unit in the game - surprise surprise, at 0!! As soon as the upgraded widow mine fires, it has more dps than the unupgraded widow mine.
Euhm a marine isn't firing for 99% of the time. Do we say it has 0 dps during those times, and pretty much infinite dps when it is firing? Of course not, you take the damage it did in a relative large time span and divide it by the time.
Now talking about dps of a widow mine is fairly irrelevant generally, since normally it won't fire more than once. (Now if Drilling Claws increased firing rate by a factor 3, then yeah sure it would mean it fires multiple times in a fight, sadly it doesnt).
If you want to look at dps, then yes it is higher with drilling claws upgrade. But look at your own numbers, when looking at larger time spans it is pretty irrelevant, while if you look at a marines stimmed dps it is irrelevant of the time scale used, it is always much higher than an unstimmed marine.
So what do we have with drilling claws? The widow mine doesn't fire more often. It does exactly the same dps. What does change is that it fires a bit earlier, which helps with mobility, decreases the number of widow mines lost during burrowing and makes sure enemy units are a tad earlier dead, so they can attack a bit less.
So I think that means it looks alot more like the speed increase of a stimmed marine. It does pretty much nothing for its dps directly, but it does increase mobility, which of course increases the effectivity of the widow mine. But it does not increase its dps.
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This stupid dps discussion aside, I think that drilling claws is a very useful, almost essential upgrade for mid-late game TvZ. Especially when engaging on creep.
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thanks for the answers..
Another Q: How do I follow up a successful cheese hold vs P? I just played a guy on ladder, went CC first. He went for blink "all in" which I held easily. I thought he would just leave the game but no. So I go with 4 medivacs and stim, but because of planetary nexus and FF he holds. So I go again later, this time he has 1 colossus. He holds again. I manage to save my medivacs through all of this, but when I push again at about 140 supp he has too much. I have vikings etc but he just has too much. He took an early third and still held my first push, wtf?
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A lot of times I am fairly angry after my opponent cheeses me, especially against protoss so when I attack with 2-4 medivacs and stim I will sometimes bring SCVs to help me win the fight. Depending on the situation, I will ferry half my army into his base and control his ramp. I believe every map has a "dead zone" on the top of the ramp where neither planetary nexuses will hit. If the protoss tries to rush up his ramp to take out that force he will take a ton of damage and there is always the threat of just darting in with the low ground force and targetting down the natural. If he ignores that high ground force it will start taking out production facilities and pylons.
In any case, it is a very micro intensive situation and since he has little to no aoe, your stim bio should be at the advantage.
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But I should "expect" a killing blow? After I hold an all in I want my free win. He all inn'ed me and god damnit I will have my win when I hold!  So should I ever just accept to get ahead i.e snipe a nexus and go home or something like that?
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If you snipe a nexus your momentum should be able to carry you to victory - assuming you are constantly streaming units to your opponents base which I believe you should be. Most of the time protoss are in the mindset of, "oh crap my all in didn't work I better rush out collosi and / or templar quickly" so they won't have enough forces to fight.
Personally I will always go for the kill because I hate dealing with collosi and templars. But there are some who believe you should take your econ advantage and use it to build more expos and get better upgrades.
BTW, don't ever expect protoss to leave. From my experience they don't on ladder. They realize all they need to do is win one fight and then march into your production line so it doesn't even matter how big your bank and eco advantage was. You see people try to all in and once they realize it didn't kill you off, they just skip one round of warp ins and throw up nexus.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On August 15 2013 03:24 krooked wrote:But I should "expect" a killing blow? After I hold an all in I want my free win. He all inn'ed me and god damnit I will have my win when I hold! So should I ever just accept to get ahead i.e snipe a nexus and go home or something like that?
Do you have a replay?
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http://drop.sc/354184
heres the replay. I haven't looked through it yet so I'm expecting that he took 4 hidden bases or something.. Anyways, I am still very bad at this game, but I think I held his push correctly. My follow up was poor, I'm sure of that much.. But just general help on my play would be appreciated. I am thinking about just making a thread because I am completely lost as to what I'm supposed to do in basically all match ups. I outmacro my opponent almost every game, but I always manage to lose. I'm just downright retarded as to how to play this game past 10 minutes, and its even worse if something unexpected happens (as in this scenario in the replay).
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I am sorry ifthis is not gameplay related but how low or high should my mouse sensitivity be. Im new to terran and I want to optimize my marine splitting but i feel as my precision with my mouse is not accurate. Does this come with practice and my mouse sensitivity shouldnt matter? Or should a put mouse sensitivity at a better spot?
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I can't remember off hand, but I don't believe he can blink right into your main from the low ground there. He needs to get onto that ledge first.
Notice he built a ton of immortals. He doesn't actually want immortals, so you should have considered that a win because at that point his tech is very delayed. So now we are in the usual mid-late game situation but now he has less tech.
At the 15 min mark push he still had no aoe so if you pulled scvs you would have crushed him. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and I have full map vision but yeah. I really think that was a mistake to dart in and get your army stuck between the nexus and the cliff. Still out in the open and pick away at the nexus, forcing him to come out to you.
It looks like in the engagements you start out with a nice spread but you end up clumping them together, possibly because you are trying to focus fire the collosi. If you want to do that, grab a few units on the sides (ideally marauders), and dart in with this group while the rest stay spread. That usually is enough to force his collosi back.
Just watched the 19 min fight. Yeah, you essentially move commanded your entire bio army to try and target one collosi in the back. I say move commanded even thought they were on attack command because as they try to close the distance on that collosi, they aren't fighting and getting ripped apart by his zealots and stalkers.
Unless the collosi is out of position and you can one shot it, you should be kiting backwards away from his lasers. Once the zealots thin out then feel free to attack to collosi.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On August 15 2013 03:59 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
I am sorry ifthis is not gameplay related but how low or high should my mouse sensitivity be. Im new to terran and I want to optimize my marine splitting but i feel as my precision with my mouse is not accurate. Does this come with practice and my mouse sensitivity shouldnt matter? Or should a put mouse sensitivity at a better spot?
Personal preference, would recommend searching for mouse dpi thread.
Most pros play with;
- 800-1200 DPI.
- 6/11 windows sensitivity.
- mouse acceleration disabled, both in game and on mouse.
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On August 15 2013 03:59 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
I am sorry ifthis is not gameplay related but how low or high should my mouse sensitivity be. Im new to terran and I want to optimize my marine splitting but i feel as my precision with my mouse is not accurate. Does this come with practice and my mouse sensitivity shouldnt matter? Or should a put mouse sensitivity at a better spot?
Yes mouse sensitivity doesn't matter in the sense that any sensitivity can work as long as you get used to it. But if you are new you might as well get used to a high sensitivity. This opens up the ability to do things quicker. Just don't sacrifice quickness for accuracy.
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EPT
