EPTReplay: http://drop.sc/347079
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 113
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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TheBaLinOne
Germany16 Posts
Replay: http://drop.sc/347079 | ||
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Vilanoil
Germany47 Posts
i need some help to find the right opening in tvt to follow with mech. i tried to copy a build used by lucifron with Hellbat drops but i always die to early reaper harras on ladder because i lack marines :S. ( i'm high diamond if it matters at all ) | ||
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teuthida
United States104 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:26 Vilanoil wrote: Hey! i need some help to find the right opening in tvt to follow with mech. i tried to copy a build used by lucifron with Hellbat drops but i always die to early reaper harras on ladder because i lack marines :S. ( i'm high diamond if it matters at all ) I'd like to know this as well, I really like meching in TvT but half the time I try to open with an expand and hellbat drops I get mass reapers in my base. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On July 02 2013 23:08 teuthida wrote: I'd like to know this as well, I really like meching in TvT but half the time I try to open with an expand and hellbat drops I get mass reapers in my base. You can always open reapers yourself... What build are you doing for hellbat drops? | ||
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Vilanoil
Germany47 Posts
On July 02 2013 23:14 Whatson wrote: You can always open reapers yourself... What build are you doing for hellbat drops? I tried something like this : 12 Rax / 13 Gas @ 100Gas Factory -> Reactor on Rax swap with Factory -> get some hellions. ad CC -> Armory and SP + 2nd gas get upgrades add 2 or 3 more factories 2 with techlab and produce tanks. Don't a real refined build order yet, thats why i am asking. | ||
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Sprite825
France57 Posts
14cc 15rax 16gaz -factory + reactor -armory + starport -tech lab on rax(stim), hellbat, marauder, medivac prod That a lot of terran use today, like flash and mvp, in what case do you go for 3rd cc+ebay x2 before rax x2, and in what case do you go for rax x2 before 3rd cc+ebay x2 ? | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
i play a gas first 111 with a reaper scout in tvt. i follow it up with reactor factory a quick starport and eventually expand, usually before adding more production. my rax will, apart from building some addons, idle and float around for scouting. that much is set. the problem i am encoutering sometimes is that when my reaper gets a scout off and sees armory + starport building on one base, i have to prepare for hellbats. otherwise i am dead. my hellion viking defense (sometimes with 1 or 2 mines) works great against hellbat plays but is an auto loss to thordrops which i can´t easily identify every game. so, should i follow up scan the reaper scout to be certain about his drop choice, or is there a way to adequatly prepare for both possibilities withouth sacrificing my macro edge? small adjustments i could think about would be to get a medivac before a viking and threaten the counterdrop if he moves out with his thor (this would invite a basetrade, which i am likely to lose if he gets a second thor out). heavy mine play instead of the hellions to completely deny any drop access into my main (this is a major adjustment and takes all mapcontrol from me) if needed i can post a replay. so how do you guys go about this? please pm me if you leave a quality response in the thread! thx | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
On July 02 2013 22:26 Vilanoil wrote: Hey! i need some help to find the right opening in tvt to follow with mech. i tried to copy a build used by lucifron with Hellbat drops but i always die to early reaper harras on ladder because i lack marines :S. ( i'm high diamond if it matters at all ) the key to defending early reaper attacks is to get your factory up while retaining all fighting units that you have. i cant seem to find the thread, but there was a very nice quality post by someone that had a timetable of when your opponents reapers can arrive and when you can actually beat them. as a general rule, you want to keep your base tight, so that reapers can´t run around your mineral line unthreatened. you need keep your units near your scvs and use scvs to buffer the shots, every time the reapers engage. this is ok because the only way for him to have enough reapers to take down your early marines is to cut scvs and take a very early gas along second rax before orbital. thus, even if you pull all! your scvs to push back the initial reapers your mule alone will still provide you superior income. reapers only become a problem if your opponent can accomplish 2 things. snowball his reaper count up while constantly picking of your fighting units and denying your factory indefenitly. aslong as you can prevent both of these you are in excellent shape, regardless of how many scvs you might have lost in the process. as a follow up you want to play some sort of tech harras and expansion play. the reaper player will be down in eco and tech, thus every scv that you kill and every turret that you force will get you further ahead of him. then just finish him off with some sort of timing attack. this can be pure marine medivac with stim, or marine tank with banshees, or some hellbat tank viking push, anything should work. btw; in tvt, always build your first depot behind your mineral line. walling your ramp will just be a liability due to tanks or the less common nuke rushes. | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
On July 02 2013 23:49 Sprite825 wrote: When you do the TvZ build : 14cc 15rax 16gaz -factory + reactor -armory + starport -tech lab on rax(stim), hellbat, marauder, medivac prod That a lot of terran use today, like flash and mvp, in what case do you go for 3rd cc+ebay x2 before rax x2, and in what case do you go for rax x2 before 3rd cc+ebay x2 ? you see a 3rd base done for zerg with your initial hellions -------> 3rd cc + ebay will get you into the late game, rax x2 will create an early timing attack you see no 3rd base (or it just started) ------> 3rd cc + ebays can be executed but needs to be reinforced with extra bunkers and maybe a tank. rax x2 will mean that you have to engage (in the worst case) roach ling bane on the open. its bad. as a side note; i know its popular and a lot of people do it, but getting stim this early (especially if you follow up with cc + ebays) is questionable. by the time it finishes, you wont have enough units to execute a timing anyway, so you might aswell delay it in favor of a tank, +1+1 or even a raven etc... | ||
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ImperialFist
790 Posts
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Carmine
United States263 Posts
On July 03 2013 00:18 alpenrahm wrote: here goes nothing : i play a gas first 111 with a reaper scout in tvt. i follow it up with reactor factory a quick starport and eventually expand, usually before adding more production. my rax will, apart from building some addons, idle and float around for scouting. that much is set. the problem i am encoutering sometimes is that when my reaper gets a scout off and sees armory + starport building on one base, i have to prepare for hellbats. otherwise i am dead. my hellion viking defense (sometimes with 1 or 2 mines) works great against hellbat plays but is an auto loss to thordrops which i can´t easily identify every game. so, should i follow up scan the reaper scout to be certain about his drop choice, or is there a way to adequatly prepare for both possibilities withouth sacrificing my macro edge? small adjustments i could think about would be to get a medivac before a viking and threaten the counterdrop if he moves out with his thor (this would invite a basetrade, which i am likely to lose if he gets a second thor out). heavy mine play instead of the hellions to completely deny any drop access into my main (this is a major adjustment and takes all mapcontrol from me) if needed i can post a replay. so how do you guys go about this? please pm me if you leave a quality response in the thread! thx I think that thor drops is the kind of thing that you just don't worry about. It CAN happen, and it may happen from time to time but unless you are a pro and need to be able to stop everything then it will happen so rarely that it isn't worth altering your build. This is of course mostly relevent if you are laddering, if you are facing someone who is known to do that for some reason then I guess you could constantly make marines out of your 1 rax in addition to the hellion viking, slowing down your stuff a little but it would give you some extra firepower if an allin like that came your way. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On July 03 2013 00:18 alpenrahm wrote: here goes nothing : i play a gas first 111 with a reaper scout in tvt. i follow it up with reactor factory a quick starport and eventually expand, usually before adding more production. my rax will, apart from building some addons, idle and float around for scouting. that much is set. the problem i am encoutering sometimes is that when my reaper gets a scout off and sees armory + starport building on one base, i have to prepare for hellbats. otherwise i am dead. my hellion viking defense (sometimes with 1 or 2 mines) works great against hellbat plays but is an auto loss to thordrops which i can´t easily identify every game. so, should i follow up scan the reaper scout to be certain about his drop choice, or is there a way to adequatly prepare for both possibilities withouth sacrificing my macro edge? small adjustments i could think about would be to get a medivac before a viking and threaten the counterdrop if he moves out with his thor (this would invite a basetrade, which i am likely to lose if he gets a second thor out). heavy mine play instead of the hellions to completely deny any drop access into my main (this is a major adjustment and takes all mapcontrol from me) if needed i can post a replay. so how do you guys go about this? please pm me if you leave a quality response in the thread! thx I'm not too sure about the Hellbat drop, but for the Thor he needs a TL on the Fax, while for Hellbats either a Reactor or naked (TL would be stupid for Hellbats). So, if you scout the Armory and Starport with your Reaper, you should go check the Fax for addons. Granted, if the Fax is naked, he could add a TL or Reactor a bit later. In that case you might wanna check the Rax for an addon as well as he might switch. Also check for the build status of the Armory. If it's about halfway done, that's the latest time to add a TL somewhere to be able to start a Thor right away, when the Armory finishes. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
On July 03 2013 01:29 alpenrahm wrote:you see a 3rd base done for zerg with your initial hellions -------> 3rd cc + ebay will get you into the late game, rax x2 will create an early timing attack By the time your intial hellions can scout out a third base, it's too late to make a decision between fast 3 cc and 2 rax, since the timing of the branch between the two builds is around 5:20-5:30 while hellions come out later. I would say, to answer the OP's question, is that you can SCV scout and check his gases; if he is continuing to mine past 100 gas, I would get 2 raxes instead of 3 CC in case of an all-in, and your SCV can sometimes barely stay alive to see his gas timings. Also, large maps (ahem, Whirlwind) with long attack paths, sometimes it's just better to go 3 CC since you have more time to prepare/scout an all-in, and the chances zerg will play a macro game on a larger map is also increased. Both styles, 3 CC and +2 rax are very viable, 3CC is more macro focused (duh) while +2 rax allows for pressure and aggression, whichever floats your boat. I have a question of my own - with the recent 2 mine/4 marine drop build, is it recommended to scv scout? Because I found that if I do, it absolutely screws up the mineral timings as it is a mineral-tight build, but at the same time, it's also needed to scout proxy reapers/opponent's opening since I found out it is pretty much an auto-loss vs proxy 2 rax reaper. I also wonder, which is more optimal for this build - gas first, or 12 rax 12 gas? I see both variations. | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
The first one is going for Tank+Hellion and just before the Engagement occurs you transform your Hellbats. (i call it Innovation Style because he uses this. And on the other side a Tank+Hellbat composition with no hellions and like 8 MediVacs for dropping bases and the enemy army in an engagement. What style is in your opinion better and why? And what style should i use preferably against Pure Bio or Bio+Tank compositions? | ||
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geokilla
Canada8241 Posts
http://drop.sc/347145 | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
Turtle until they get 3/3/3 (if they even remember). Wait for a collosi / ht army and then just laugh cause they can no longer lose. I could post a replay or I could post 100 that shows the exact same thing but I am sure you all have seen and know what I am talking about. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
On July 03 2013 05:58 geokilla wrote: How do I beat Mech? I always ask this and always get the same answer like don't attack head on, etc. etc. But every time I try something new, I just get shredded because Mech is always better than bio, unless you're a God like Polt. Disregarding the last battle where I threw all my units away because my mouse and keyboard suck, how do I defeat his army just as he's pushing out with his Hellbats and Tanks? All he has to do is seige up and wait. All I can do is run away. I try to get some last second attacks before he's fully seiged, and as you can tell, I'm just dead. http://drop.sc/347145 Sacrificing your entire army to kill his natural hurt because you didn't have the econ or production capability to replenish fast enough. It's kind of the same idea vs. protoss trying to take their 3rd. Yeah you can deny it or kill it off, but will you be able to hold off the counter attack? Grab your 3rd and 4th faster then him then do those gorilla warfare type tactics. | ||
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ReaperStackS
Netherlands41 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 03 2013 07:22 ReaperStackS wrote: i have alot of problems vs toss and desperately need a build for tvp. i dont want to go all standard rax expand into 10 ish timing. So if you have a build thats solid i would love to hear it or them. the only 1 i can seem to make work is fast expand ........ so any links or thoughts on the match up would be much appreciated I have a couple of thoughts on that, and then some example games. First, TvP is critically dependent on scouting. You will fix at least half of your losses to common all-ins by improving your scouting. Use either your initial SCV scout or Reaper (if you build one) to check his expansion timing or lack thereof, gas count, pylon count, and what his first few units are. If you see no initial Stalker and a Sentry instead, it isn't Blink, but could be DTs. There are lots of possibilities; go through your replays to find out what you COULD have scouted that would have told you what was coming. Second, TvP is very much based around the correct usage of units, both in attack and defense, as well as how many you can conserve. It does you no good to get his natural Nexus if you sacrifice 100% of your standing army to do so without killing the two Colossi that are there. If you go for it, be damn sure you're going to either kill tech units or get out with most of your army. Polt/Dear Game 1 - in this game from the just-finished MLG, Polt goes CC-first on Whirlwind (if you're interested in how to deal with this opening, I will plug my guide on the subject). He then proceeds to play a longer macro game where both sides secure 3 bases. He shows how to deal with Storm via splitting, careful engagements, and tries to avoid throwing away units and control for no reason. In particular watch how surgical Polt is in dealing with multiple Chargelot harass, continuously moving his army around so that he's always able to react on the fly and avoid taking critical economic damage. Polt/Naniwa Game 3 - here Polt opens with a very standard Reaper into Widow Mine play, which he uses to scout Naniwa's Immortal bust incoming and holds fairly easily. However, if you're like me, you know firsthand how easy it is to lose that advantageous situation. Polt deflects the Warp Prism DT follow-up, maintains map control with his advantage, and builds to a completely dominant army that steamrolls Naniwa's attempt at a standard Colossus transition. In both of these games, pay particular attention to what Polt is NOT doing: he is not throwing away Medivacs of units, not stimming in to just hope to get a base, and not overreacting to things like DTs with a million Turrets. He always makes the 4th expansion in time and keeps his production constantly going, emphasizing healthy mixes of good TvP units: Marauders, Hellbats, and Vikings are liberally utilized to keep his opponents at bay. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On July 02 2013 23:41 Vilanoil wrote: I tried something like this : 12 Rax / 13 Gas @ 100Gas Factory -> Reactor on Rax swap with Factory -> get some hellions. ad CC -> Armory and SP + 2nd gas get upgrades add 2 or 3 more factories 2 with techlab and produce tanks. Don't a real refined build order yet, thats why i am asking. Yeah, reactor after 2 marines can be iffy vs constant reapers, I think it dies straight up to the reactor first double reaper build There's a 15 gas hellbat drop build that I'm messing with right now that does decently well vs reapers, you make constant marines while getting a second gas + CC. The drop comes later than a 13 or 12 gas, but you get better economy | ||
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