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On July 03 2013 09:16 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 07:22 ReaperStackS wrote:
i have alot of problems vs toss and desperately need a build for tvp. i dont want to go all standard rax expand into 10 ish timing. So if you have a build thats solid i would love to hear it or them. the only 1 i can seem to make work is fast expand ........ so any links or thoughts on the match up would be much appreciated I have a couple of thoughts on that, and then some example games. First, TvP is critically dependent on scouting. You will fix at least half of your losses to common all-ins by improving your scouting. Use either your initial SCV scout or Reaper (if you build one) to check his expansion timing or lack thereof, gas count, pylon count, and what his first few units are. If you see no initial Stalker and a Sentry instead, it isn't Blink, but could be DTs. There are lots of possibilities; go through your replays to find out what you COULD have scouted that would have told you what was coming. Second, TvP is very much based around the correct usage of units, both in attack and defense, as well as how many you can conserve. It does you no good to get his natural Nexus if you sacrifice 100% of your standing army to do so without killing the two Colossi that are there. If you go for it, be damn sure you're going to either kill tech units or get out with most of your army. Polt/Dear Game 1 - in this game from the just-finished MLG, Polt goes CC-first on Whirlwind (if you're interested in how to deal with this opening, I will plug my guide on the subject). He then proceeds to play a longer macro game where both sides secure 3 bases. He shows how to deal with Storm via splitting, careful engagements, and tries to avoid throwing away units and control for no reason. In particular watch how surgical Polt is in dealing with multiple Chargelot harass, continuously moving his army around so that he's always able to react on the fly and avoid taking critical economic damage. Polt/Naniwa Game 3 - here Polt opens with a very standard Reaper into Widow Mine play, which he uses to scout Naniwa's Immortal bust incoming and holds fairly easily. However, if you're like me, you know firsthand how easy it is to lose that advantageous situation. Polt deflects the Warp Prism DT follow-up, maintains map control with his advantage, and builds to a completely dominant army that steamrolls Naniwa's attempt at a standard Colossus transition. In both of these games, pay particular attention to what Polt is NOT doing: he is not throwing away Medivacs of units, not stimming in to just hope to get a base, and not overreacting to things like DTs with a million Turrets. He always makes the 4th expansion in time and keeps his production constantly going, emphasizing healthy mixes of good TvP units: Marauders, Hellbats, and Vikings are liberally utilized to keep his opponents at bay.
You can't count pylons without a reaper. MSC expo has 2 gas and 2 pylons. They can add workers or take them off after you are forced out of their base. It could be double expo, it could be 4g warp prism, could be blink, could be delayed oracle, could be immortal or voidray bust. 2 pylon 2 gas at 4 mins could be literally anything. This is why after playing this game for over 14 years I haven't been able to even play a team game in a month. It makes me sick.
I lost to a high master who went blink after sentry. I made 3 bunkers and didnt have enough units as a result.
I was honestly shocked and amazed that Polt didn't lose to the DTs. Anyone in Platinum could do what Naniwa did with them but only a player of Polt's caliber could dig himself out of that situation. There is no way I could ever be good enough to not end up behind in the same situation. I am honestly pissed off and shocked that he didn't lose because Protoss will never get nerfed.
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On July 03 2013 06:06 KingofGods wrote:
I...............hate...............protoss.
Turtle until they get 3/3/3 (if they even remember). Wait for a collosi / ht army and then just laugh cause they can no longer lose.
I could post a replay or I could post 100 that shows the exact same thing but I am sure you all have seen and know what I am talking about.
lol I feel you....
I honestly think the best way to play TvP is to get medivacs fast as possible and drop like mad, then try to hit a timing before they get storm or a 3-base economy up. I don't even know how many late-game engagements I've lost because I didn't EMP the templars fast enough and they just stormed the shit out of my army.
If anybody can answer this "question" better, please do, I don't understand how to play TvP at all right now
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On July 03 2013 06:21 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:58 geokilla wrote:How do I beat Mech? I always ask this and always get the same answer like don't attack head on, etc. etc. But every time I try something new, I just get shredded because Mech is always better than bio, unless you're a God like Polt. Disregarding the last battle where I threw all my units away because my mouse and keyboard suck, how do I defeat his army just as he's pushing out with his Hellbats and Tanks? All he has to do is seige up and wait. All I can do is run away. I try to get some last second attacks before he's fully seiged, and as you can tell, I'm just dead. http://drop.sc/347145 Sacrificing your entire army to kill his natural hurt because you didn't have the econ or production capability to replenish fast enough. It's kind of the same idea vs. protoss trying to take their 3rd. Yeah you can deny it or kill it off, but will you be able to hold off the counter attack? Grab your 3rd and 4th faster then him then do those gorilla warfare type tactics.
I did hold off his counter attack though.
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I'm in high diamond...and I'm beating some low Masters P's using a pretty standard TvP strategy.
I myself find it hard to be focused on multiple locations at once, with Zealot warp prism harass, zealot run-bys, and my main army walking around in the middle of the map.
I just do a 12rax/13gas reaper -> reactor expand. Follow it up with the ebay to get +1 atk. Then add 2nd+3rd rax to get stim. Then standard factory + starport timing. Assuming the P is playing standard macro turtle style, I get a 3rd usually before they do, and if they do take an early 3rd, I pressure it with my bio. Either way, after I have 3 bases and am at around 65 SCVs with 3/3 on the way, I pull around 40 SCVs and just go for a big attack. I focus all my micro on that attack, and just continuously make more troops and rally forward. This strategy works 90% of the time. Even with good FFs to stall time, I can usually just roll through. Since I'm only focused on 1 location, I split well if they have storms(since P will likely be on 3 base as well)
Hope it helps somewhat
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On July 03 2013 11:29 jojamon wrote:
I'm in high diamond...and I'm beating some low Masters P's using a pretty standard TvP strategy.
I myself find it hard to be focused on multiple locations at once, with Zealot warp prism harass, zealot run-bys, and my main army walking around in the middle of the map.
I just do a 12rax/13gas reaper -> reactor expand. Follow it up with the ebay to get +1 atk. Then add 2nd+3rd rax to get stim. Then standard factory + starport timing. Assuming the P is playing standard macro turtle style, I get a 3rd usually before they do, and if they do take an early 3rd, I pressure it with my bio. Either way, after I have 3 bases and am at around 65 SCVs with 3/3 on the way, I pull around 40 SCVs and just go for a big attack. I focus all my micro on that attack, and just continuously make more troops and rally forward. This strategy works 90% of the time. Even with good FFs to stall time, I can usually just roll through. Since I'm only focused on 1 location, I split well if they have storms(since P will likely be on 3 base as well)
Hope it helps somewhat
Yeah I more often than not win with this strat when I go for it. I just find it kind of boring to be honest. I don't go for this strat just so I can practice late game vs. protoss (if they don't 1 base all in before that of course).
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3622179
Proxy immortal. I managed to win but only because my reaper got 20 probe kills. I'm pretty sure I did everything I was supposed to do (bajillion bunkers, scvs surround bunkers to repair, non stop units) and I still would have lost without the 20 repear kills. This is probably the first time I held this push off. I didn't realize it at the time during the hectic battle, but after watching the replay it seems marauder with concussive shell played a huge role.
For the next time, how do I beat this without hoping I get lucky with my opponent not killing my repear? Maybe stop scv production and place more buildings? But they were pretty vital in the repair even though the bunkers still went down very fast. I thought about getting a mine or two but didn't think they'd be all too relevant after their first shot if they are lucky enough to not get targeted before they burrowed.
PS. Look how much work that repear did, even before the 20 probe kills. What a boss. I am very happy it lasted through the game.
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Sorry but 3-3 on the way would mean he has access to both, storm and colossi. Even if you have enough vikings and a healthy medivac count, a good Protoss should be able to zone out with forcefields, damage with photon overcharge+timewarp and storms. There should be no way you break him forcefully after the 15 minute mark.
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Yup, the times I lose is when the protoss have storm lol.
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United States2186 Posts
On July 03 2013 14:51 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:29 jojamon wrote:
I'm in high diamond...and I'm beating some low Masters P's using a pretty standard TvP strategy.
I myself find it hard to be focused on multiple locations at once, with Zealot warp prism harass, zealot run-bys, and my main army walking around in the middle of the map.
I just do a 12rax/13gas reaper -> reactor expand. Follow it up with the ebay to get +1 atk. Then add 2nd+3rd rax to get stim. Then standard factory + starport timing. Assuming the P is playing standard macro turtle style, I get a 3rd usually before they do, and if they do take an early 3rd, I pressure it with my bio. Either way, after I have 3 bases and am at around 65 SCVs with 3/3 on the way, I pull around 40 SCVs and just go for a big attack. I focus all my micro on that attack, and just continuously make more troops and rally forward. This strategy works 90% of the time. Even with good FFs to stall time, I can usually just roll through. Since I'm only focused on 1 location, I split well if they have storms(since P will likely be on 3 base as well)
Hope it helps somewhat Yeah I more often than not win with this strat when I go for it. I just find it kind of boring to be honest. I don't go for this strat just so I can practice late game vs. protoss (if they don't 1 base all in before that of course). http://ggtracker.com/matches/3622179Proxy immortal. I managed to win but only because my reaper got 20 probe kills. I'm pretty sure I did everything I was supposed to do (bajillion bunkers, scvs surround bunkers to repair, non stop units) and I still would have lost without the 20 repear kills. This is probably the first time I held this push off. I didn't realize it at the time during the hectic battle, but after watching the replay it seems marauder with concussive shell played a huge role. For the next time, how do I beat this without hoping I get lucky with my opponent not killing my repear? Maybe stop scv production and place more buildings? But they were pretty vital in the repair even though the bunkers still went down very fast. I thought about getting a mine or two but didn't think they'd be all too relevant after their first shot if they are lucky enough to not get targeted before they burrowed. PS. Look how much work that repear did, even before the 20 probe kills. What a boss. I am very happy it lasted through the game.
It depends on the allin, but often bunkers are actually a trap versus immortal allins. Sometimes it is simply better to pull your nat scvs and get a big spread. Immortals cannot fight bio/scv at all and even if you lose lots of scvs if his army dies he loses. So if you can bait forcefields or make him use them to delay the fight (which you want anyways, to get medivacs or stim), you create a situation where he must retreat or save ff's and play safely.
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On July 03 2013 09:50 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 06:06 KingofGods wrote:
I...............hate...............protoss.
Turtle until they get 3/3/3 (if they even remember). Wait for a collosi / ht army and then just laugh cause they can no longer lose.
I could post a replay or I could post 100 that shows the exact same thing but I am sure you all have seen and know what I am talking about. lol I feel you.... I honestly think the best way to play TvP is to get medivacs fast as possible and drop like mad, then try to hit a timing before they get storm or a 3-base economy up. I don't even know how many late-game engagements I've lost because I didn't EMP the templars fast enough and they just stormed the shit out of my army. If anybody can answer this "question" better, please do, I don't understand how to play TvP at all right now
In general : u peeps ask yourself how the $%#& your opponent could turtle get 3/3/storm/range/charge/blink+a deathball in a game with u in it?!?!? Well, when this happens to me, i watch replay which clearly shows everytime i was being to passive
Best counter to deny a protos fast tech is:
1. Trading armies. More units he has to make out of warpgates, less tech will be present and researched.
2. Turtle better then the protos. Let him turtle on 2 base, but no more then 2 base (less tech and army off 2base, no 2nd maxout after they loose there army). Example : MVP strat from WCSEU (against Sase 2 games avialable at twitch), which means u make ur stand in front of there expo. Armycomposition and tactics are heavily dependant on which map your playing. But MVP showed that u can outturtle a turtling teching protos. This also makes sence because the protos will have less gas to tech which will mean a weaker armycomp in general, storm is a defensive spell which needs alot of gas to get but is useless against bunkered up marines with tanks. When trying to outturtle the protos a. Never attack but be a spoon. b. Ur strats/armycomp should counter there tech c. But at there ramp and constantly denying his 3rd. If u have 4 bases and the protos only 2 bases, u will win eventually
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On July 03 2013 11:29 jojamon wrote:
I'm in high diamond...and I'm beating some low Masters P's using a pretty standard TvP strategy.
I myself find it hard to be focused on multiple locations at once, with Zealot warp prism harass, zealot run-bys, and my main army walking around in the middle of the map.
I just do a 12rax/13gas reaper -> reactor expand. Follow it up with the ebay to get +1 atk. Then add 2nd+3rd rax to get stim. Then standard factory + starport timing. Assuming the P is playing standard macro turtle style, I get a 3rd usually before they do, and if they do take an early 3rd, I pressure it with my bio. Either way, after I have 3 bases and am at around 65 SCVs with 3/3 on the way, I pull around 40 SCVs and just go for a big attack. I focus all my micro on that attack, and just continuously make more troops and rally forward. This strategy works 90% of the time. Even with good FFs to stall time, I can usually just roll through. Since I'm only focused on 1 location, I split well if they have storms(since P will likely be on 3 base as well)
Hope it helps somewhat
On July 03 2013 15:17 NarutO wrote:
Sorry but 3-3 on the way would mean he has access to both, storm and colossi. Even if you have enough vikings and a healthy medivac count, a good Protoss should be able to zone out with forcefields, damage with photon overcharge+timewarp and storms. There should be no way you break him forcefully after the 15 minute mark.
Indeed, SCV pulls are best played when you just get +2 attack, at which time Protoss won't have Storm if he went for 3+ Colossi, or he will have only 3-4 Storms which are somewhat bearable if you don't bath in them. For an example of the classic SCV pull + 1/2 bio + Vikings all-in, see for instance Bunny vs Bisu, Whirlwind, SPL.
On July 03 2013 16:27 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 14:51 KingofGods wrote:Yeah I more often than not win with this strat when I go for it. I just find it kind of boring to be honest. I don't go for this strat just so I can practice late game vs. protoss (if they don't 1 base all in before that of course). http://ggtracker.com/matches/3622179Proxy immortal. I managed to win but only because my reaper got 20 probe kills. I'm pretty sure I did everything I was supposed to do (bajillion bunkers, scvs surround bunkers to repair, non stop units) and I still would have lost without the 20 repear kills. This is probably the first time I held this push off. I didn't realize it at the time during the hectic battle, but after watching the replay it seems marauder with concussive shell played a huge role. For the next time, how do I beat this without hoping I get lucky with my opponent not killing my repear? Maybe stop scv production and place more buildings? But they were pretty vital in the repair even though the bunkers still went down very fast. I thought about getting a mine or two but didn't think they'd be all too relevant after their first shot if they are lucky enough to not get targeted before they burrowed. PS. Look how much work that repear did, even before the 20 probe kills. What a boss. I am very happy it lasted through the game. It depends on the allin, but often bunkers are actually a trap versus immortal allins. Sometimes it is simply better to pull your nat scvs and get a big spread. Immortals cannot fight bio/scv at all and even if you lose lots of scvs if his army dies he loses. So if you can bait forcefields or make him use them to delay the fight (which you want anyways, to get medivacs or stim), you create a situation where he must retreat or save ff's and play safely.
Hey, look who's there! Ver is right, Bunkers are necessary to handle Immortals all-ins but too many of them can also be a liability since they help Protoss manipulate the terrain with Forcefields. If Protoss doesn't have a healthy Zealot wall to make your SCVs melt, then indeed SCVs/bio is the way to go to crush him as soon as he's weak. An example of all of this can be found in Flash vs Jangbi, Bel'shir Vestige, SPL, in which Jangbi, after a proxy Oracle, goes a fake expand into 28 probes Immortal bust. Flash spams 5 bunks, loses all of them (no room to repair) on the first wave but retains 15 Marines and pull 15-20 SCVs to terminate Jangbi's all-in. Flash is down to 12 SCVs against 28 probes but Jangbi has zero unit left, no useful tech against Medivacs and Flash simply finishes him with drops while rebuilding his economy.
As for your replay, KingofGods:
- Send a SCV scout even if you open with Reaper reactor. You just won't handle proxy gate(s) or 3'25 proxy stargates without knowing he's doing that.
- Scout with your Reaper, don't harass. You only see he has no expand at 5', which means your Reaper spent a precious minut not being where he should be, i. e. in your side of the map looking for a possible proxy.
- Your EB is late. Use it for +1! It is of tremendous help against all-ins.
- Your Marine production isn't good, your reactor rax must have the least amount of idle time possible if he's all-inning.
- Since you have no intel you blind Turret, which hurts a lot at this time since it's almost the money you need to build a third rax, or +1.
- Why do you get a second gas at 5'55? You already have more gas than you need. Stay longer on one gas, especially if you have to concede extra defensive measures such as bunks.
- Just search your whole side of the map if you don't see what he's doing. No other way. Do that with a SCV and a Reaper.
- Your third rax is late, you need it much earlier considering his all-in. But this is related to the fact you didn't know.
- Again as a result of your lack of intel, your extra bunkers are way too late, you're lucky his execution of the build is horrible. He should have just finished his third Immortal when you started extra bunkers, which means he would have auto-rolled you. Your Bunkers have to be placed in a concave in such a way that they can all shoot at the targets at the middle of the ramp, so basically your second Bunker at the middle is too much in retreat.
- Naturally your SCVs need to be ready, but for that you need the intel.
- As said above, as soon as you see he has no more Zealots (and in his case no more Sentries), just pull SCVs and crush his remaining Immortals.
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Heya guys,
I'm loving this thread, so many helpful fellow terrans here :p. I am high diamond right now, but my winrate against protoss is like 30%. Thing is I have chosen for about half a year now to play mech in TvP, and I'd love to know who else does this. Now you might say 'Ha theres your problem, mech is not viable vs P'. The mech composition in itself is not really my problem though, and I dont want to start a discussion on mech viability vs P.
I usually tend to lose, or get critically behind before the 10 minute mark. I experiment a lot with trying to find a reasonably fast expand while teching to mech, but almost every protoss seems to do some kind of one base allin now (diamond EU server at least). When I scout a two gas opening from protoss, I already feel like I'm going to lose. MSC blink allin, Proxy Oracles, Proxy dark shrine, Proxy immortal bust, you name it. I seem to pretty much auto lose vs those.
I don't really know what kind of tells there are for either proxy X or for a blink allin (before my scv gets chased away by stalkers), so I feel like I waste a lot of scans. Also, If I don't find the proxy location in time it just seems like I need every defensive option in the terran arsenal (ebay / raven for dts, widow mines in place for oracles, bunkers against an immortal bust).
Are there any reasonably safe fast expansion builds transitioning into mech, which allow you to 'cleanly' adapt to allins? Or should I really stick to 1-1-1 expands in order to put agression back on the toss?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Cheers!
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Thanks very much for the help in this thread so far!
I am having some issues with prioritization in tvp.
After doing my 10min medivac push and i force protoss to show his templar tech, i throw down my 3rd CC and now i need to get: 2nd ebay + armory, ghost acedemy, 4th/5th rax and start hellbat production. The problem I am having is if I get ghost acedemy straight away and 2nd ebay + armory I cannot afford mobieus + ghosts, double upgrades and enough medivacs/mauraders etc, i simply don't have the gas.
Should I be delaying my ghost acedemy until after my 4th and 5th rax and 2+2 has started and rely on hellbat/maurader dodging storms (if there are any engagements) until I have saturated my 5th and 6th geyser? I feel like if i get my ghost acedemy first I have to delay upgrades, thus putting me behind later in the game.
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I think if they have templar archives before collosi they plan to do a templar / chargelot / archon attack with upgrades. You have to wall off and have bunkers. No time for ghosts.
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http://ggtracker.com/matches/3625340
Is this how you should be playing tvp late game? I feel like the fights were rather easy for me (even though I lost way more) because my opponent didn't have zealots and so my ghosts were able to push forward rather easily. I think I need more firepower in my army but zealots and collosi rip apart marines so quickly. Hellbats maybe? Marauders? I probably could have made use of cloak more since my opponent didn't have any obs. Actually..........his lack of obs was probably why I was able to get my ghosts forward so often. Then again, I scanned constantly so maybe I would have been able to pick off obs anyway.
Was my army composition ok? Did I remax with the right units? Did I waste too many resources on planetarys? Please don't worry about nit picking with the micro mistakes on both sides but instead focus on the overall game.
Warning: 45 min in game time, split map Newkirk.
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i search for a mech TvZ replay where the terran used the reaper fe into reactor fac fe into 3 Fac BUT with starport support and not direct into 5 Starport.
Maybe someone can help me - i know there was a match like this but i can not find it anymore :/
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On July 04 2013 04:45 saaaa wrote:
i search for a mech TvZ replay where the terran used the reaper fe into reactor fac fe into 3 Fac BUT with starport support and not direct into 5 Starport.
Maybe someone can help me - i know there was a match like this but i can not find it anymore :/
Reminds me of Happy vs DIMAGA, Akilon Wastes, WCS Europe, but he went 5 fact before adding +3 Starports, so it doesn't exactly match your description.
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http://ggtracker.com/matches/3625754
hmph... I feel like I really, really, threw this game incredibly hard. What exactly went wrong with my positioning/decision making in this game that led me to lose the game? Of course, the fight at the end where I end up stuck behind all my buildings was a god awful fight, but I'm wondering how it ended up there and how I could've prevented myself from getting into such a horrible position, as well as just normal criticisms of how my play was. I haven't really gone marine/tank all too often, I've pretty much exclusively gone mech or 1 base all-ins in the past and I want to shift my focus into learning marine/tank.
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It might sound strange but i reaaaally struggle against zerg ... there is just no way i can beat them :/ atm i have 1-14 on ladder vs zergs 
I've tried macro games always like rax CC, CC first, reaper CC, helbatdrop CC, ... they always seem to win pretty easy against me
I'm kinda getting sick of it since i have 70% TvT and 83% TvP ... TvZ is really holding me down. Is there a good all in i could do on 1-2bases (not 8-8-8 or proxy stuff .. just basic inbase mass, scv pull attack?)
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On July 04 2013 04:50 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 04:45 saaaa wrote:
i search for a mech TvZ replay where the terran used the reaper fe into reactor fac fe into 3 Fac BUT with starport support and not direct into 5 Starport.
Maybe someone can help me - i know there was a match like this but i can not find it anymore :/ Reminds me of Happy vs DIMAGA, Akilon Wastes, WCS Europe, but he went 5 fact before adding +3 Starports, so it doesn't exactly match your description.
thx dwf but unfortunetely in this game were no hellbat drops. Do you know another replay/vod?
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EPT
