I want to share a ZvP build that I've been using for a couple of weeks now and that I think is very strong, especially against a rather passive FFE. I would like to encourage players better than me to try this out.
The idea behind this is to:
1. Use Spore Crawlers to make Swarm Hosts much harder to detect and thus increase their survivability drastically, making them almost unkillable. 2. Go with only two bases instead of three to hit when Protoss only has units that cannot deal with Locusts well.
It has already been observed that Swarm Hosts usually either roll an opponent with incredible cost efficiency or get overrun and die an expensive death. Since Locusts themselves do not cost anything, unit loss tab ratios of 1000 to 10000 in favour of Zerg become possible. On the other hand, once Protoss starts killing Swarm Hosts, Locust output often do not reach the critical mass anymore so that Zerg falls behind. One way to deal with this is to place your Hosts in a safe distance so you basically trade Locust lifetime for a lower risk of losing your Hosts. Blade55555 does it this way, as I understand it from his guide and his replays.
With this post, I would like to suggest a different way of dealing with the problem: combining Swarm Hosts with Spore Crawlers and laying siege on Protoss's base at a time when there are mostly only Gateway units out because these are really bad at dealing with Locusts. This requires us to go with only two bases--which sounds really all-innish from a WoL perspective because in that game Zerg has almost no way of harming a 2 base Protoss, often trades inefficiently against Force Fields and Immortals and thus has to get as much economy on three bases as possible. With Swarm Hosts in HotS, however, there is a possibility that the reasoning for exclusively playing ZvP on three quick bases just does not hold anymore; in that sense, we do not cut our base count because that is the only way to hit a timing, but because we do not necessarily NEED three bases. In fact, when I started experimenting with this composition, I only stayed on two bases because that is easier to manage when moving Overlords around and burrowing and unburrowing Spores and Swarm Hosts.
The Build
Pool First Hatchery at natural 2 Queens total ~3:45-4:00 1 gas @ 3:45-4:00, 2 workers 1st 100 gas: Lair ~5:45 take all gases, full saturation next 100 gas: Overlord Speed Ling Speed (can be skipped) saturate 2 bases, at least 20 drones at the natural Infestation Pit when Lair finishes Locust Upgrade Swarm Hosts
Explanation and Basic Execution
This is just a general outline of getting out Swarm Hosts quickly while saturating two bases. The opening is a standard Pool first, with the only difference being that you cannot take your third if Protoss delays your natural too much. Hence, I prefer 12 or 14 Pool over 15 Pool to get Lings out quicker if needed. As a gas timing, I like something around 3:45 to 4:00 because that way you can start mining gas just when you else would reach oversaturation if you natural is delayed. There is generally no pressure to get an an ultra-fast Lair because an Infestation Pit builds quickly and Swarm Hosts cost a lot of money so you have to saturate your mineral lines first anyway. You shouldn't go later than 6:00 though because of early Gateway all-ins.
The next important component is Overlord Speed. Make sure you have this ready when Swarm Hosts are out. Blizzard recently moved Overlord Speed from Lair to Hatchery, but this does not really affect us because we go for a quick Lair anyway. You can still research it with the first 100 gas after starting your Lair because it eases scouting enormously. Ling Speed is not mandatory since you do not need to make Lings in any case.
Once your Lair has finished, build an Infestation Pit and start making Swarm Hosts. The Locust upgrade (increases lifetime of Locusts from 15 to 25) is absolutely worth it in almost any case because it eliminates the 10-second downtime between Locust waves and increases Swarm Hosts' range massively: if you attack an unguarded third base of Protoss from a travel distance of 10 seconds, every Locust wave attacks three times longer. That is a lot given that e.g. 10 Swarm Hosts worth of Locusts do 279 dps!
Once your first two or three Swarm Hosts are out, take most of your Overlords, three to four Drones and the Swarm Hosts to a more-or-less hidden spot outside of the Protoss base. Spit creep there and make your Drones into Spore Crawlers. Rally in more Swarm Hosts, make a creep road towards Protoss and move the Spores as close to the base as possible. Then burrow the Swarm Hosts just behind the Spores and rally the Locusts in. From now on all you have to do is reinforce with more Swarm Hosts and bring more Drones to replace killed Spores. Make sure that Locusts are always firing at something, preferably buildings because these cannot run away. The easiest way to do this is to rally the Swarm Hosts on an important building and then shift-rally on some space behind the building. That way, Locusts will kill that building first, and then continue with a-moving to that second spot. You can also move-shot Locusts towards a building to increase the number of Locusts firing. In general, though, you should have at least 10 Swarm Hosts or so for it to be worth it having Locusts firing at buildings with Protoss Units shooting at them.
This is what your setup should look like. Observers cannot come close enough to detect Swarm Hosts. They can go around, of course, but you can also place Spores all around your Swarm Hosts because they are cheap.
I usually add all Overlords, Drones, and Spores used offensively to one control group so that I can move them to one specific location quickly if I have to. Swarm Hosts go to another control group. I think the most important thing is to use the Swarm Host's rally hotkey instead of right-clicking so you do not accidentally suicide newly made Hosts into the opponent's base. What also happens regularly is that I accidentally burrow Swarm Hosts somewhere on the map because I have added these to the control group as eggs and then burrowed them all. To avoid this, when burrowing you should use Ctrl-click to only select the Hosts at the front. In that case, you can also use right-click to rally.
In general, moving Overlords, Spores, and everything around takes a while to get used to because they are handled very differently from what Zerg normally uses. But it certainly is not overly difficult, either.
On another note, upgrades do not seem to be extremely important with Swarm Hosts with Locusts doing enormous damage anyway. I normally get +1 Carapace, though, since it helps them to close in on the opponent and, of course, affects all other ground units.
Protoss Reaction and Reacting to Protoss
Scout Protoss with an Overlord at a usual timing, i.e. something between 7:00 and 8:00. Overlord Speed should finish around the same time and also allow to delay the scout a bit. The nice thing is that with Overlord Speed you should be able to see everything with ease.
If you see a Stargate, you need extra Spores, both with your Swarm Hosts and at home. I usually make two per base and at least double the amount the number of Spores I make offensively since the new Void Ray is relatively good against Spores. You have to replace the Drones immediately, of course. If I see a Robo, I make a round of Speedlings or two because Robo armies can break Locust waves early on. In that case, it is good to have a few units that can fill the gap and save the Swarm Hosts' day.
Once your Spores and Swarm Hosts are in position, most Protoss players react with a Stargate, and then usually with Void Rays (Phoenixes and Oracles run out of energy, Tempests have too low dps, and Carriers take too long to get out). In that case, I usually add some Hydras so that Void Rays are forced to kill the Hydras first in case my Swarm Hosts are without protection. Also, Protoss can pick off reinforcing Swarm Hosts with air units.
Colossi are very good at killing Locusts, too. In fact, they are the only ground unit that can harm a big Swarm Host army in the long run. Once I see my opponent taking that route, I start Hive to get some Vipers out because Abduct is simply extremely good if you pull Colossi into Locust waves. In conjunction with Swarm Hosts, I think they are much more effective than Corruptors, and at the same time more versatile. But in the long run, replacing Spores with the more standard Corruptors and Overseers is reasonable, too. That way of deflecting detection is much more expensive, but also allows you to move around more quickly with your Swarm Hosts.
If you do not see much of an reaction in tech terms, or Protoss does not fight your Locust waves at all, your opponent most likely tries to trade bases. In that case, you only have to defend your natural (or even main) to win since "free" Locusts are way powerful in a base trade scenario. Admittedly, I have not played against people who do this very much, but you react similarly as in any other ZvP base trade: make a lot of Spines in a position to which you think the opponent will not get in time and rally all new units behind that. With Swarm Hosts you can also make Spores since that, again, effectively forces Protoss to kill those first. The same things you should do if you feel you are getting ahead. You don't want to lose against some surprise DTs, obviously.
Caveats
If Protoss goes for an Immortal/Sentry all-in you have to play more defensively because he already has two or three Immortals at the time you are trying to set up the contain. I have not encountered this build very much recently (probably because of the success that Skytoss has at the moment), but since Blade has already shown with his post that Swarm Hosts can defend it quite easily on three bases, defending it on two should not be much of a problem. Once you have enough Hosts to keep the Immortal/Sentry ball in check, you should be able to move out and at least pressure Protoss if he tries to take a third base. But I don't want to speculate too much.
If Protoss one-bases (which has only happened to me once), you should probably abandon Swarm Hosts and focus defending until he expands.
Closing Thoughts
I have intentionally not mententioned any third base timing so far because I do not feel confident enough to give a rule for this. Of course, you can expand if Protoss falls behind against your Swarm Host attack, and I usually do.
The good thing about this build is that you, compared to drop and Nydus strategies, do not have to invest much into any tech. Infestation Pit and Overlord Speed are only 100/100 each and have other uses. You also do not rely on hiding a lot. The worst thing that can happen is that Protoss manages to catch your Drones before they become Spores. That happening is not very likely, though, because a scouting Protoss will know that you have not taken an early third base and play rather defensively.
Replays
Edit: Since beta replays cannot be watched any more, I uploaded more recent ones. I refined the strategy a bit, but in its core, it is still the same thing.
I'm not good, and by these forums' standards I am probably really bad (at least made it to low masters in Wings for two seasons last year). But I wanted to share this, not because it is giving me a lot of success (and Protoss rage), but because I haven't seen anyone really try this. So I decided it was better to make this post than not to!
Also, feel free to PM me for practice games and such, and I'll give you my character code!
TL;DR: Bring Spores with your Swarm Hosts and they won't die (the latter).
have you played against a protoss that goes for a fast oracle? the sight range on envision is pretty huge, seems like they could snipe your hosts (with a ground army) while out of spore range. it is a very specific response, but this should be something to watch out for. oracles still have envision right?
On February 13 2013 10:26 BigRedDog wrote: Can i ask how come you build pool first instead of hatch...
Is it because in case the toss build a pylon in your exp?
I've been looking for diff strat than 3 base max roach/hydra..or mass mutas. Will give this a shot.
Thank you!
Pylon at expo and cannon rush. You have to defend a cannon rush when hatch firsting absolutely perfectly or you will lose the natural and well lose the game. One small mistake and his cannon rush succeeds.
On February 13 2013 09:37 Lobotomist wrote: definitely going to try this out!
have you played against a protoss that goes for a fast oracle? the sight range on envision is pretty huge, seems like they could snipe your hosts (with a ground army) while out of spore range. it is a very specific response, but this should be something to watch out for. oracles still have envision right?
Envision was hugely buffed actually. Double duration. The thing is, Stargate+Oracle eats up so much gas, and then you're blowing so much energy on envision that its a noncombat unit for fight purposes basically. How do you get a strong enough army besides that to take on the hosts?
This looks interesting. What is your response to a protoss taking a fast third. Continue with the two base strategy or go for a third as well and go for a slightly delayed attack with more Swarm Hosts?
On February 13 2013 13:22 Ricoic wrote: This looks interesting. What is your response to a protoss taking a fast third. Continue with the two base strategy or go for a third as well and go for a slightly delayed attack with more Swarm Hosts?
If you are going to commit to a 2 base swarmhost you have to commit. Honestly not a fan of 2 base swarmhost I prefer 3 base, but 2 will definitely kill a greedy protoss. Some protosses even when they see you haven't taken a third but haven't attacked and are droning will still take a fast third and then will die to 2 base swarmhost as well.
With 2 base the reason I dislike it is gas is very limited so if you make 8 swarmhosts and then he has voids on the field it's hard to put pressure so you have to get hydras as well.
Of course I forgot about the speed overlord + spore, but still I am not a huge fan, nice guide btw! Always glad to see fellow zergs using swarmhosts
I think that I have seen something similar on TLOs stream, but he used nydus instead of speedy overalords. It looked really cool, with smoother way to reinforce and bringing some queens along to add aditional options (creepspread+transfuse+antiar).
I do the version with a nydus worm. A nydus not only gives you anti-air and a nice army buff (thanks to queens), but helps with mobility, which is the biggest problem of that build.
It seems pretty strong actually, much better than the 3 base version in my opinion because if he techs quickly he'll simply die, if he doesn't you'll have enough time to transition. Nothing hard counters it in my experience, I've beaten every build with it.
Really like your guide even i'm not playing either Protoss or Zerg, feels good to have people trying to put some guides about new interesting strategies in Hots. This forum has become a garbage of whine lately. I wish this would encourage even not top GM or top master players to post in here their strategies. Thoses post always give good food for thought.
I have a question about one potential weakness of your strategy. Did you encounter a protoss player that scouted well your intentions and try to contain you with a very mobile and prompt aggression? It seems to be the weakness of that build for me. If the protoss contain you and force you to move slowly burrowing/unburrowing your SH to his base he gain plenty of time to build a strong response don't you think. To illustrate what I am thinking, it could be like one response to 1/1/1 protoss had in Wol when they have gateway force with imortal and forced terran as he move out to siege unsiege all along the path from his base to the P base to delay the timing and have a force to correctly response to the 1/1/1 by that time.
I actually had this done to me yesterday once its set up, thats a real pain to deal with, however i think its hard to pull this off vs someone who previously faced it. The Overlord placements should more or less give it away, so it can be shut down by just denying overlords early. So personally i can only see this working vs really passive FFEs, as you said.
To counter the denying of Ovies you would have to make more units previous to swarmhosts, and im not sure how important the timing is with this build, would be interesting to hear how that impacts it if you played more games with this strategy.
Thank you all for the nice feedback, I'll try to address as much as possible:
@Lobotomist - Actually, according to Liquipedia, the Oracle has even less detection range than an Observer (10 to 11). It's true that Oracles with their high movement speed are bit better than Observers at going around the Swarm Host camp, but they are also more expensive and still quite squishy. Also, you can scout a Stargate with your speedy Overlords beforehand and just put down more Spores.
@nixi - Cool to hear. Feel free to post replays, I'm sure they are better than mine!
@awesomoecalypse - That is the exact problem I see for Protoss. If you go for stuff that can counter-act the fact that Swarm Hosts are invisible, you are running into trouble against the raw power of Locusts. But if you go for dps, you will have a hard time detecting Swarm Hosts just at the time you made it through (or around) the Locusts to shoot at them.
@Ricoic - If I notice the third in time--which shouldn't be hard, speed Overlords again--, I throw a Locust wave at that first which is often enough to deny it. I don't think you have to though since he won't be able to start mining there soon. Also, he shouldn't really be expanding before you in the first place.
@Existor - Thanks a lot for the banner!
@blade55555 - Thanks for the heads up! Legitimate concern you have there, if I know Protoss has Oracles or Void Rays on the map, I don't know when to move out exactly, either. Maybe it's possible to make a few Spores in a hidden spot on the map (once the Spores are done, they cannot be harmed, of course), and make some Hydras in the mean time to escort Swarm Hosts to the Spores. Need more experience.
@Sated - Colossi indeed kill Locusts efficiently in sufficient numbers (beginning from three at least, I think), but at the same time, Colossus range probably doesn't finish before 11:00. At that point, you can already have 10 Swarm Hosts knocking at your door. Not to mention that Zerg can also abandon Swarm Host plans and go 2 Base Muta instead.
@SSVnormandy - No, I haven't played against it. Do you want to do it? I can see that working out to a degree, but you still need both detection and a fairly strong Gateway force to reduce Host numbers. And it doesn't feel like time is really running against Zerg since Swarm Hosts only get stronger with higher numbers.
@freewareplayer - Not sure what you mean by denying Overlords. You have at least 8 speed Overlords, there is no way Protoss can kill them before you get some Spores up. Keep in mind that even if Protoss has a several Phoenixes and perhaps a Void Ray (need chronoboost for that), you can still set up Spores in different locations. Or you react to the Stargate by setting up Spores earlier than you would against a Robo.
TLO playing right now with Mushrooms, Spores and Queens. Some queens were sent to enemy base and when Lair is done, starting spread creep somewhere near enemy base, so you always have creep for Locusts
I feel that if a protoss scouts you not taking a 3rd (which any half way decent toss should) then it should be 100% countered by a 7:30-8:00 or so 4 or 5 gate push with out taking the 3rd or 4th gasses at his natural. You only pop out with 3-4 SH by the 8:30 mark or so, which leaves it vulnerable to a lot of builds. Maybe build 3-4 spines to reinforce the natural if you think he is going to attack?
I think the only way this will work is vs opponents who either don't scout, or get denied a scout in the early game. But either way it revolves around them not getting the information that they should be getting. I guess the only other option they could think of is a burrow roach all in timing, or a a muta build if they scout the 3rd and 4th gasses.
On February 13 2013 20:36 velvex wrote: Thank you all for the nice feedback, I'll try to address as much as possible:
@Lobotomist - Actually, according to Liquipedia, the Oracle has even less detection range than an Observer (10 to 11). It's true that Oracles with their high movement speed are bit better than Observers at going around the Swarm Host camp, but they are also more expensive and still quite squishy. Also, you can scout a Stargate with your speedy Overlords beforehand and just put down more Spores.
According to the editor and the wiki, detection range (on the Behavior) is 14 (which means it can detect outside of its sight radius).
Observer is 11 (on the behavior).
So if a unit can spot for the Oracle (since it only has 10 sight range), Oracle has 3 more detection range (14 total).
I saw Psy doing this in one of his vods on youtube ages ago. I like to open 4 queen and send one of them down to a sneaky spot somewhere near the front of their base with an OV (usually one of my first 3) and drop like 3 tumors. I'm not sure what's optimal for gas timings yet. I prefer my opening where I forego gas until the 5:00 min mark in order to get 4 queens. 2 gas at 5:00, 3rd gas at 5:30, 4th gas when lair starts. I do not go up to 20 drones on my natural, instead stopping at 16 on mins at each base with full gas saturation.
The extra queen lets you deflect stalker/zealot pressure while letting you also send one across the map. This push MUCH more powerful if you have creep moving up with your locusts. I do not get OV speed because I do not use OVs for creep and I don't really need to scout because I'm dead if it's a super fast gateway all-in and he's dead if it's anything else. You get all the scouting you need when your locusts are knocking on his front door.
I usually send 3 drones down to my queen/OV staging area to make spores that ideally finish just as my swarm hosts arrive. Again, PUSH CREEP! Locusts gain a substantial speed bonus on creep. I don't think you need more than 3 because you have a queen and can get hydras, which will be much more useful in the long run.
I watched one of your replays. Our builds result in a similar number of swarm hosts popping out around the same time. You had 8 at 10 minutes while I had 9. However, I don't think either of us has the build down to a science yet so this can probably be optimized. Because of this timing, we are safe against any 2 base play that pushes out later than 9 minutes.
I would say a good refinement would be to Overseer scout @lair 100% to check for Stargate. If yes, drop hydra den faster and get 4-5 after you have a handful of swarm hosts because they will prevent voidrays from killing locusts for free.
It's also very important to know to transition. After a certain number of swarm hosts (lets say somewhere between 10 and 15) you want to either start getting hydra or corruptor/muta. Hydra will let you break a player trying to push you back with air while you need either corruptors or muta to deal with colossi. Colossi are the correct answer to this build. I have had a ridiculous win ratio with this build, losing only when my opponent goes for colossi immediately after seeing my swarm hosts.
I would say that when you are getting to this transition point you also need to decide whether to take your 3rd or just to mass units and go for the kill. I like to fall back on the adage, "When ahead, get more ahead," and just take the 3rd. If the Protoss manages to break out with Colossi then you can be in trouble on 2 bases.
@EuroRabbit - Well, in that case, you either stall until you have Swarm Hosts out and watch them absolutely murder the timing, or you bridge the gap with a few Roaches. I don't think it's an issue. These Gateway timings can be dealt with in WoL on three bases, so it should be possible on two bases in HotS as well.
@Goldfish - Okay, thanks, seems I misread Liquipedia because it says "detection within sight range". So with the Oracle being that good of a Detector, Stargate seems more and more the best option against this. But I still think that you can force a base trade by making extra Spores with your Swarm Hosts, and defend that and at least safe your main.
@usNEUX - Good thoughts. Originally, I used to bring a Queen with the push, too, probably because TLO always does it when doing these kind of builds (and he surely does these often!). But I have noticed that I don't really need her. Sure, having a lot of creep is nice, but I much prefer Overlord speed because it helps so much with scouting. You can actually fly several rounds above their main base and know exactly what they are doing without losing even one Overlord. You can also use Overlords to speed up your Locusts, of course.
Just played this game, thought it went really well. Good example of how I execute this. Took first 2 gas at 5:00, next 2 right as lair started. I have 7 swarm hosts, 3 spores, and a queen at his front at 10 minutes. Akilon Flats is pretty big so this timing is slightly later than on other maps. He does not react well and I win easily.
A big advantage of 4 queens is that you also have better creep spread from your front which really helps you reinforce. Because I figured the Protoss would be contained, I moved OVs towards mid to drop creep to make reinforcements arrive faster, especially because I was going with hydras since he went stargate. This allows you to skip hydra speed in favor of range because they will always be on creep anyway.
I took my 3rd at 9:30 or so. This, in addition to having made 4 spores because I saw his phoenix, results in being able to build less swarm hosts. However, this allows you to invest in tech instead. I will drop an evo chamber for +1 range around 10:00 next game and see how that works.
I'm also getting the feeling that 12 swarm hosts is enough. Past this point you are going to face diminishing returns because your locust ball cannot attack all at once and you lose attack time. After you hit this point, I'd say you should saturate your 3rd and go for your tech of choice.
Just played this game, thought it went really well. Good example of how I execute this. Took first 2 gas at 5:00, next 2 right as lair started. I have 7 swarm hosts, 3 spores, and a queen at his front at 10 minutes. Akilon Flats is pretty big so this timing is slightly later than on other maps. He does not react well and I win easily.
A big advantage of 4 queens is that you also have better creep spread from your front which really helps you reinforce. Because I figured the Protoss would be contained, I moved OVs towards mid to drop creep to make reinforcements arrive faster, especially because I was going with hydras since he went stargate. This allows you to skip hydra speed in favor of range because they will always be on creep anyway.
I took my 3rd at 9:30 or so. This, in addition to having made 4 spores because I saw his phoenix, results in being able to build less swarm hosts. However, this allows you to invest in tech instead. I will drop an evo chamber for +1 range around 10:00 next game and see how that works.
I'm also getting the feeling that 12 swarm hosts is enough. Past this point you are going to face diminishing returns because your locust ball cannot attack all at once and you lose attack time. After you hit this point, I'd say you should saturate your 3rd and go for your tech of choice.
Interesting replay. Your opponent really did struggle to work out how to deal with those hosts haha. Skipping the nydus network did net you 2 more swarm hosts than you would be able to afford using a nydus variant, but it brings a few additional disadvantages over a nydus version like the OP describes. - Your reinforcements would take a lot longer to arrive - You can not supplement your host nest with queens for additional anti air so you are more reliant on spores. - Counter attacks against your main would also be harder to defend without the ability to nydus your hosts back home. - Being able to walk a queen the full length of the map to set up the tumors may be more difficult or impossible on different maps without it being scouted or intercepted by pushes which are leaving the opponents base at similar times. All in all I would say that your version comes off as a little more cheesy because it takes many more risks and is less defensible. It's awesome that people are trying all different variants of 2 base swarm host tho so we can really get a good idea of their limits.
So what is protoss supposed to do about this? I've only run into it one or two times and it just seems extremely silly to play against, especially if you' are not doing a robo opener that allows you to quickly tech to Collosus. What is the "right" response? From what I can see in this guide, if you place your SH down, make queen and spore, and scout the P's reaction, you are in great shape with a response otw.
The most important thing is to not suicide units. Almost all Protoss players at a master level still don't know how to play against it, and give me ridiculously lopsided engagements. Stay in your base, try to limit damage (don't hesitate to waste forcefields and add canons) and tech. Once you get either collossi (if you went robo) or tempests (stargate), proceed to get rid of the siege.
The other thing, make sure you try to counterattack. Warp prism or oracles can do a lot of damage, and the zerg player has to divide his defense between the siege and his bases.
So basically, patience, good control, counter attacks and good multitasking. It's not easy but trust me, it's even harder for the Zerg :p
On February 19 2013 00:44 MilesTeg wrote: The most important thing is to not suicide units. Almost all Protoss players at a master level still don't know how to play against it, and give me ridiculously lopsided engagements. Stay in your base, try to limit damage (don't hesitate to waste forcefields and add canons) and tech. Once you get either collossi (if you went robo) or tempests (stargate), proceed to get rid of the siege.
The other thing, make sure you try to counterattack. Warp prism or oracles can do a lot of damage, and the zerg player has to divide his defense between the siege and his bases.
So basically, patience, good control, counter attacks and good multitasking. It's not easy but trust me, it's even harder for the Zerg :p
Alright thanks, Not sure about harder for the zerg but, I will try this. The person I played doing it left a SH in his main to deal with my counter drop. GM zergs seem to be good at their 2b all in haha. I will post replay if I run into it and have trouble. Thank you
I went into unranked queue and did this real quick. Masters game for what it's worth, I added spines, queens, and elevator tactics. Opponent opened 1gate/stargate and got to ranged colossus but still lost.
On February 19 2013 03:42 dicedicerevolution wrote: I went into unranked queue and did this real quick. Masters game for what it's worth, I added spines, queens, and elevator tactics. Opponent opened 1gate/stargate and got to ranged colossus but still lost.
Ok wow that was an awesome push. The elevator is a great addition to the build. If you want to be even more annoying you can move one of your overlords up his cliff just after your creep tumors are down for just a second to start the growth up there so you can creep into their main while pressuring their nat before drop is complete XD
me as a Protoss can say its very hard to deal with especially with early Queens with transfuse rdy. Best way to deal with it is immortal sentry observer for sure i guess but not sure about that.
I think you can skip hydra's altogether with the first initial attack, and instead opt for a high queen count. Save the gas for a nydus or additional swarmhosts.
Ohh yeah, and for my protoss brethren. You do not want to engage this straight up if at all possible. The odds of you winning are not good in the face of a competent zerg. Instead, you want to completely skip the entire engagement and head straight for his base. When he begins spreading his locus swarm toward you, move in circles around it, never engaging, and when blink is finished, blink over his locust pick off a couple of hosts; rinse and repeat. If you get pinned into your base by swarmhosts, odds are your going to lose. The trick is to never engage the locust head on.
On February 19 2013 08:15 Sated wrote: Grubby executed this defence perfectly against TLO yesterday in their 2GD KotH series. It didn't even look close. This strategy is a gimmick and nothing more.
I disagree... TLO made some mistakes in that game. We just need better Zergs executing it. We shall see in the coming months I suppose.
Open with 10pool. Nydus instead of OL creep drop (economy is better relative to just opening 2base vs. FFE), Vipers vs. 2robo colossi. Opponent is GM for what it's worth.
If you are pinned in your base, the proper counter for protoss is to go tempest. He will snipe your spores and your econ will be slow on 2 bases, not to mention tempests are a tech advantage over swarm hosts in my opinion. I haven't had much success with swarm hosts as part of a late game composition. Maybe someone can demonstrate otherwise, I'd love to see it. Regardless, you absolutely need to take a 3rd off this. Staying on 2 bases is not viable. Beating grandmaster is most likely because of their lack of experience against it..
The best usages I have seen of swarm hosts thus far have been defensive.
How would Protoss handle this if they didn't open Stargate though? By the time they get a SG and beacon up you've done a lot of damage or forced a ton of sentries. If zerg keeps up with scouting during the attack and sees this coming he can go spire and go for a muta transition because your stalker count is probably going to be super low.
I've been doing something very similar to this, but it hits at 10 minutes 30 seconds. I 15 hatch, make two queens, saturate my bases, scout with 1 pair of lings, and drone like mad on two bases. I take one gas after my pool finishes, and as soon as I have 100 gas, I upgrade to lair. I take a 3rd inside of my base, (if possible, using it to connect my main and my nat with creep, so I don't have to waste an inject) not at a mineral line, and then take all remaining gases. I do this to pump additional queens and have larvae because I forgo hydra's entirely during my initial push; I save the gas for additional swarmhosts. I make 6 queens and a nydus worm, and when I arrive at his base, at 10:30, I have 6 swarmhosts (locust upgraded), 6 queens, 9 drones (6 spines and 3 spores), 6 overlords (speed upgrade w/ one overseer). As soon as I've set up my contain, I immediately take 2 additional bases, upgrade to hive (abduct works great with this strat), pump mostly swarmhosts, and add tech structures according to my opponents composition. It's been working really well for me. The queens are a great addition for the reason that running off of two bases will leave you very mineral heavy, and the queens with transfuse behind a wall of spines, spores, and swarmhosts, are incredibly deadly. Not to mention, when he try's to break your contain, you can nydus into the back of his base and flood him with the additional tech (banelings, roaches, hydra's, etc...) you took after setting up outside of his main. I should also say that at the 11:00 mark your economy will really be kicking in, so your going to have an additional 6 swarmhosts and expo's + queens by the 12:30 minute mark.
On February 20 2013 00:45 dicedicerevolution wrote: Open with 10pool. Nydus instead of OL creep drop (economy is better relative to just opening 2base vs. FFE), Vipers vs. 2robo colossi. Opponent is GM for what it's worth.
Replay? And what league are you? You shouldn't be floating enough minerals that you need a macro hatch so I don't know if your mechanics are bad or something and you certainly don't need 6 spines and 3 spores. Swarm hosts are not larvae intensive at all. If you are constantly building queens out of your 2 bases then you will end up with the same amount. Your build also has half as many swarm hosts as what seems to be the standard has at 10:30. You don't need 6 spines if you have enough swarm hosts, which you don't. 6 queens in your contain is also overkill against air if you just make 2-4 spores. You shouldn't really be taking damage at your line of swarm hosts so you shouldn't need transfuse.
At first glance it looks like you're just wasting a ton of minerals on things you don't need. If you're floating minerals then take your 3/4 gases earlier and a 3rd, but you really shouldn't have many extra.
I appreciate the advice, I'm a zerg smurf. I was a masters toss back in WOL, but I only recently picked up and started playing zerg. I picked up the third on many occasions to flood his base with bane/lings (nydus) after setting up the contain, but I understand what your getting at. I still like a high queen count though, I find them to work great at soaking up damage that makes it way through your locusts.
Been doing this a ton on ladder (but I always bring queens, and keep bringing more if they are making air), but I finally faced this one korean guy twice who reacts imo the perfect way, first going into a quick warp prism harass forcing swarm hosts there, then warping in a bunch of stalkers out somewhere safe on the map and with observers goes for 6 warpgate pressure to threaten counterattack/base trade while going for a quick colossus followup off 2 base. particularly important was how well he multitasked, moved his army around very intelligently to threaten swarm host reinforcements, threaten the swarm host frontal cluster a little, right at the time in-between locust spawns, when your locusts are out of position, and very soon making a very serious threat of base-trading with his stalker/sentry/colossus army. bring 1 probe inside the warp prism to make pylons on the map for a static warp-in location, so the warp prism can be mobile. if you retreat your swarm hosts you have no pressure obviously and he just takes a 3rd, if you try to pressure while also defending your main, your swarm hosts numbers are a little too small and he can sweep his army back to take out the swarm host front as he's also cutting off reinforcements, only other option really is to force a base trade scenario which actually might work but is uncertain who will win, depends on who executes everything better and really both of you can rebuild your bases to make for a very bizarre game.
I think going nydus with your swarm hosts is enough to shut down warp prism harass because you can pull queens/2-4 swarm hosts home easily. If you throw down a spire after getting like 10 swarm hosts then you can be sure to shut this down completely and then be ready to deal with SG/colossi.
On February 22 2013 06:09 Zelniq wrote: Been doing this a ton on ladder (but I always bring queens, and keep bringing more if they are making air), but I finally faced this one korean guy twice who reacts imo the perfect way, first going into a quick warp prism harass forcing swarm hosts there, then warping in a bunch of stalkers out somewhere safe on the map and with observers goes for 6 warpgate pressure to threaten counterattack/base trade while going for a quick colossus followup off 2 base. particularly important was how well he multitasked, moved his army around very intelligently to threaten swarm host reinforcements, threaten the swarm host frontal cluster a little, right at the time in-between locust spawns, when your locusts are out of position, and very soon making a very serious threat of base-trading with his stalker/sentry/colossus army. bring 1 probe inside the warp prism to make pylons on the map for a static warp-in location, so the warp prism can be mobile. if you retreat your swarm hosts you have no pressure obviously and he just takes a 3rd, if you try to pressure while also defending your main, your swarm hosts numbers are a little too small and he can sweep his army back to take out the swarm host front as he's also cutting off reinforcements, only other option really is to force a base trade scenario which actually might work but is uncertain who will win, depends on who executes everything better and really both of you can rebuild your bases to make for a very bizarre game.
Can you upload the replays? I lose every single game to this stuff...
Might just be that I lose every single game to cheese today but I am pretty frustrated with SH rush.
VOD of Leenock doing something similar vs Babyknight this weekend, he did a similar build in game 1 but had to transition out of it. This game was more successful and won the game with it.
While this type of play is really fun, it's too dependent imo on not being scouted. I Main as a Protoss (Master League), but during Beta I worked my way to diamond as a Zerg. This strategy worked to great affect until I started to reach higher levels of play. Their are too many tell tale signs when you start sending drones or picking up spores and spreading a creep highway across the map. I don't know about you, maybe I was doing something wrong, but it seemed that good opponents nearly always spotted this before I could get my contain fully established. If they catch you while your in the act of setting up, it's a really one sided fight, and the toss gains an easy win. I do want to say though that I saw a professional player using something like this (I forget who it was), but he didn't try to set up a contain right away. He used the spores and swarmhosts to secure his 3rd and slowly took over the entire map. By the end of the game, I think he had over 100 spores/spines literally covering the map. It was really sick, and very effective. Skytoss wasn't able to do anything against it. The swarmhosts took care of everything on the ground and the Vipers would pull his carriers/tempests into about 50 spores and hydras/corruptors. A very interesting game; I wish I had the replay.
I still do this and it works for me. Unfortunately, ZvZ and ZvT hold me back right now to obscure dimensions; meaning that I win at least 90% of my ZvPs while the other match-ups level me out a little above 50%. But as long as high-level players (read: pros) haven't done it exactly like this, I continue to believe this is ultra-strong at all levels. I don't think that pros know both the exact strength of an early SH contain and a super-effective counter by the Protoss with apparently not having tried this out at all.
I agree that the setting-up phase is by far the most dangerous part. But with the pay-off being an extremely cost-efficient Spore/SH setup, I think you can afford a lot of adjustments that increase your chances for getting that. And if those adjustments are to be making eight Spores at eight different spots on the map, then they may be.
Btw, the counter Zelniq faced sounds about right to me. Being super-active is probably the best thing Protoss can do.
It doesn't really hit at a specific timing because it is more like a slow siege, not unsimilar to a 1/1/1 in TvP. But your first two or three Swarm Hosts should hatch between 9:00 and 9:30, and you can make four to five Swarm Hosts per minute.
this build is easily countered by 2 stargate phoenix. In hots if a protoss scouts zerg 2 base and go double stargate mass phoenix, it beats every 2 base zerg tech. They will have around 10 phoenix when you move out for 10 ish minute swarm host push. If you go with queens, they lift and kill all queens then make an oracle and lift all swarm hosts. If you do the overlord + spore, they can kill overlords and you cant spread creep so spores cant move. You dont have enough gas to go 2 base swarm host hydra queen and they can transition to colossi by the time you do. Phooenixes force spores or some other defence in order for you to move out as well without losing all of your overlords beforehand.
On February 22 2013 06:09 Zelniq wrote: Been doing this a ton on ladder (but I always bring queens, and keep bringing more if they are making air), but I finally faced this one korean guy twice who reacts imo the perfect way, first going into a quick warp prism harass forcing swarm hosts there, then warping in a bunch of stalkers out somewhere safe on the map and with observers goes for 6 warpgate pressure to threaten counterattack/base trade while going for a quick colossus followup off 2 base. particularly important was how well he multitasked, moved his army around very intelligently to threaten swarm host reinforcements, threaten the swarm host frontal cluster a little, right at the time in-between locust spawns, when your locusts are out of position, and very soon making a very serious threat of base-trading with his stalker/sentry/colossus army. bring 1 probe inside the warp prism to make pylons on the map for a static warp-in location, so the warp prism can be mobile. if you retreat your swarm hosts you have no pressure obviously and he just takes a 3rd, if you try to pressure while also defending your main, your swarm hosts numbers are a little too small and he can sweep his army back to take out the swarm host front as he's also cutting off reinforcements, only other option really is to force a base trade scenario which actually might work but is uncertain who will win, depends on who executes everything better and really both of you can rebuild your bases to make for a very bizarre game.
This sounds like a great response. Any chance you can share the replays?
On March 21 2013 13:35 IamPryda wrote: How does this build do vs gateway plus warp prism 2 base allins
You mean with Sentries and ramp-blocking? I haven't played against that, but if you can hold this on three bases, you sure can hold this on two.
On March 22 2013 20:35 1v1Alpha wrote: this build is easily countered by 2 stargate phoenix. In hots if a protoss scouts zerg 2 base and go double stargate mass phoenix, it beats every 2 base zerg tech. They will have around 10 phoenix when you move out for 10 ish minute swarm host push. If you go with queens, they lift and kill all queens then make an oracle and lift all swarm hosts. If you do the overlord + spore, they can kill overlords and you cant spread creep so spores cant move. You dont have enough gas to go 2 base swarm host hydra queen and they can transition to colossi by the time you do. Phooenixes force spores or some other defence in order for you to move out as well without losing all of your overlords beforehand.
Phoenixes cannot do stop a Nydus though, and once I get enough Queens with Transfuse, I can still get up the contain. Also, double Stargate Phoenix doesn't seem like a very solid build, even (or especially) against a 2 Base Zerg. You can hardly make any Sentries, which makes you very vulnerable to any Speedling or Baneling play.
On February 22 2013 06:09 Zelniq wrote: Been doing this a ton on ladder (but I always bring queens, and keep bringing more if they are making air), but I finally faced this one korean guy twice who reacts imo the perfect way, first going into a quick warp prism harass forcing swarm hosts there, then warping in a bunch of stalkers out somewhere safe on the map and with observers goes for 6 warpgate pressure to threaten counterattack/base trade while going for a quick colossus followup off 2 base. particularly important was how well he multitasked, moved his army around very intelligently to threaten swarm host reinforcements, threaten the swarm host frontal cluster a little, right at the time in-between locust spawns, when your locusts are out of position, and very soon making a very serious threat of base-trading with his stalker/sentry/colossus army. bring 1 probe inside the warp prism to make pylons on the map for a static warp-in location, so the warp prism can be mobile. if you retreat your swarm hosts you have no pressure obviously and he just takes a 3rd, if you try to pressure while also defending your main, your swarm hosts numbers are a little too small and he can sweep his army back to take out the swarm host front as he's also cutting off reinforcements, only other option really is to force a base trade scenario which actually might work but is uncertain who will win, depends on who executes everything better and really both of you can rebuild your bases to make for a very bizarre game.
This sounds like a great response. Any chance you can share the replays?
For what it's worth, Leenock used a 2-base swarm host strategy with Nydus versus Squirtle in Set 6 of FXO vs IM last night. It didn't pan out for him but there were moments where it looked like he could have pulled ahead.
On February 13 2013 10:26 BigRedDog wrote: Can i ask how come you build pool first instead of hatch...
Is it because in case the toss build a pylon in your exp?
I've been looking for diff strat than 3 base max roach/hydra..or mass mutas. Will give this a shot.
Thank you!
Pylon at expo and cannon rush. You have to defend a cannon rush when hatch firsting absolutely perfectly or you will lose the natural and well lose the game. One small mistake and his cannon rush succeeds.
that and 2gate proxy. People have been using this way more than in WoL at it's last balance state, especially on maps like Akilon Flats where there are so many good spots. It's impossible to hold while going hatch first and is actually surprisingly strong vs pool first unless you scout it early
As soon as you see zerg on 2 base you should be using your sentry energy to send a halucination to see what they're doing. Once you see the infestation pit immediately throw down a robo bay. This is roughly the same time that the swarm hosts begin burrowing outside your base. Throw down about 4-5 cannons at the same time as your robo bay. As soon as you feel you can afford another robo throw it down. You should prioritize more collossi over range at this point. The cannons will stall enough time that you can get 3+ collossi out and then it should be really easy to kill all the swarm host. The locusts WILL kill your buildings(at least some of them). Once they do you should have more room to micro your collossi so leave ur sentries behind your cannons and stutter step the collossi back, you shouldn't take anymore damage once you have 2 or 3. Since you should have range at this point just chip away at the spore crawlers and swarm hosts. You can even ff on top or behind the swarm host so they cant run away.
Once you break the contain the game is basically over as they wont have any econ to do anything else.
This isn't really about the stratergy but it seems like a pretty good place to post it.
Just an idea really, may be good, may be bad. Also, I have never used Swarm Hosts so I don't really know how they feel.
Do you think that the player should have to select when to spawn the larva instead of it spawning automatically. This will increase skill ceiling and enable more precise spawning of the larva.
Also, if you think its a bad idea, dont bite my head off please.
Since beta replays cannot be watched any more, I replaced them with more recent ones. I refined the strategy a bit, but in its core, it is still the same thing.
On March 27 2013 02:31 Zystra wrote: This isn't really about the stratergy but it seems like a pretty good place to post it.
Just an idea really, may be good, may be bad. Also, I have never used Swarm Hosts so I don't really know how they feel.
Do you think that the player should have to select when to spawn the larva instead of it spawning automatically. This will increase skill ceiling and enable more precise spawning of the larva.
Also, if you think its a bad idea, dont bite my head off please.
I guess you are talking about Locusts, not Larvae. You can already turn off the automatic spawning with (Alt + Spawn Locusts hotkey or a right click on the icon) and spawn manually. It's just not that useful. And no, I don't think you should be forced to spawn manually. That would be pointless busywork, even in Starcraft terms.
I am toss. I meet 2 base swarm host builds on ladder but they include Nydus worm, what I find very efficient and smart. Found going for 2 robo Colos and fight for 3. base asap the only way to defeat it on highmaster/gm level. I like the idea of vipers against that, so don't overdo those swarmhosts! To force double robo even already while only few swarmhosts are on the map, is huge already.
You have to be scouting for it with hallucinations. If the zerg is two base then you need an 8 minute scout and must already have a robo up (need observers anyway). Seeing 2 base infestation you need a robo bay and a second facility. Make a second observer and a warp prism while your bay builds. Use forcefields to stall until you have 4 colossi, while using your warp prism to keep the zerg on two bases. You need 6 colossi + range to push out and break their siege position and it is essential that you keep them on two bases until you have done this, as if you let the zerg expand they will overwhelm you with a muta switch.
I love this build, I am so tired of taking a fast third and trying to scout/guess the protoss 2base allin correctly to actually defend it.
This gives me the control of the game and so far I've won every game I've done this - even though my execution sucks and the games have often escalated to weird base race type of things.
Thanks OP for the idea, I hated ZvP in WoL (I really really didn't enjoy playing infestor turtle style at all), and in HotS as well before I started doing this. The only semidecent thing I used to find entertaining was mass muta baseracing, but that got old pretty fast and often times felt a bit awkward as well.
On March 31 2013 12:35 mookku wrote: I love this build, I am so tired of taking a fast third and trying to scout/guess the protoss 2base allin correctly to actually defend it.
As a Protoss player, I also love this build. I just smashed it on ladder yesterday. If you don't take a third base, I scout you and figure out if it is Spire or Infestation, and then go Double Robo Colossus or Double Stargate Phoenix and collect an easy, easy win. I'm honestly shocked people still do this, especially with a Nydus. If I open Stargate and for some reason my scout gets denied but I know you aren't taking a third, I'll just build a bunch of units and have them patrolling all around my side of the map. You would be surprised how many Worms I pick off until people put one down on their side of the map and slowly crawl toward my base. And then they say gg to my Colossus Stalker deathball.
You should probably fake taking a third base (ie start one and cancel it) with this build. It would add a lot to this build, and would catch people off guard. The lack of a quick third base throws up huge red flags, and makes me scout more, meaning I'm going to know what is coming.
On March 31 2013 12:35 mookku wrote: I love this build, I am so tired of taking a fast third and trying to scout/guess the protoss 2base allin correctly to actually defend it.
As a Protoss player, I also love this build. I just smashed it on ladder yesterday. If you don't take a third base, I scout you and figure out if it is Spire or Infestation, and then go Double Robo Colossus or Double Stargate Phoenix and collect an easy, easy win. I'm honestly shocked people still do this, especially with a Nydus. If I open Stargate and for some reason my scout gets denied but I know you aren't taking a third, I'll just build a bunch of units and have them patrolling all around my side of the map. You would be surprised how many Worms I pick off until people put one down on their side of the map and slowly crawl toward my base. And then they say gg to my Colossus Stalker deathball.
You should probably fake taking a third base (ie start one and cancel it) with this build. It would add a lot to this build, and would catch people off guard. The lack of a quick third base throws up huge red flags, and makes me scout more, meaning I'm going to know what is coming.
I think that's very well said. I like all the responses saying that protoss should just use sentry energy to scout around 8:00 for the zerg tech path; that seems like a very solid, easy way to figure out what your opponent is doing. I honestly feel like a swarm host contain is very limited and protoss has a lot of answers to it, so I wonder if there's a better way to do this more slowly and safely....
On March 31 2013 12:35 mookku wrote: I love this build, I am so tired of taking a fast third and trying to scout/guess the protoss 2base allin correctly to actually defend it.
As a Protoss player, I also love this build. I just smashed it on ladder yesterday. If you don't take a third base, I scout you and figure out if it is Spire or Infestation, and then go Double Robo Colossus or Double Stargate Phoenix and collect an easy, easy win. I'm honestly shocked people still do this, especially with a Nydus. If I open Stargate and for some reason my scout gets denied but I know you aren't taking a third, I'll just build a bunch of units and have them patrolling all around my side of the map. You would be surprised how many Worms I pick off until people put one down on their side of the map and slowly crawl toward my base. And then they say gg to my Colossus Stalker deathball.
You should probably fake taking a third base (ie start one and cancel it) with this build. It would add a lot to this build, and would catch people off guard. The lack of a quick third base throws up huge red flags, and makes me scout more, meaning I'm going to know what is coming.
I think that's very well said. I like all the responses saying that protoss should just use sentry energy to scout around 8:00 for the zerg tech path; that seems like a very solid, easy way to figure out what your opponent is doing. I honestly feel like a swarm host contain is very limited and protoss has a lot of answers to it, so I wonder if there's a better way to do this more slowly and safely....
I honestly feel like colos isn't the best answer to this timing. I think the swarm host count can get way more out of control before the colos even begin to become an issue and by the time they do, you can have corrupters out. That isn't to say colos is a bad response to swarm hosts, but at the timing this hits, I think it can really delay colos production to the point that corrupters and swarmhosts will roll over a colos/stalker army. I even have replays of having 5-6 ultras out with my swarmhost before the toss secures his 3rd. The way I've been beaten badly with it? DTS or even zealots with a warp prism and lots of sentries at their main. Even if I'm ready for them and know they're coming, they can at least do a good amount of damage. Since this build already puts you pretty far behind, even the slightest damage has proven to be really damaing to the zerg.
I can say I've been using this build quite a bit, just to have something else. I'd say its a bit more cheesy than anything. When I see colos, I just build a spire. When I see stargate, I build more hydras. The problem is to maintain the contain you have to continue to invest in army instead of mass expanding at a pace I'd feel comfortable. Its still extremely effective.
On second thought, the best way to stop? Scouting it extremely early on. if those spores don't get up, the build loses a bunch of its effectiveness, in my experience. But, its not always a sure thing scout. They could just as easily be going 2 base muta early on with the gas timings.
Also there is a much safer way to do this build. Blade has a very detailed build order to this type of build in his HOTS overview for zerg. Its a standard safe build. This build is sort of gimmicky, but I do like it.
I've done this build a lot against all races and I like it. But in some cases its just bad and you shouldn't do it.
For instance against protoss. If you scout him going robo first you should just go into roach/hydra/viper. He's gonna have a warp prism in your base warping in zealots/dts at the same time as you're crossing the map to contain him and then he's just gonna go zealot/archon and totally rape your contain. Swarm hosts just don't handle zealot/archon very well early in the game. And then he'll laugh at you for going swarmhosts hehe.
Fortunately most protoss don't know what to do and you'll get a lot of wins from them trying for straight up timing attacks greater than 10 minutes.
On April 02 2013 04:33 ManiacTheZealot wrote: I've done this build a lot against all races and I like it. But in some cases its just bad and you shouldn't do it.
For instance against protoss. If you scout him going robo first you should just go into roach/hydra/viper. He's gonna have a warp prism in your base warping in zealots/dts at the same time as you're crossing the map to contain him and then he's just gonna go zealot/archon and totally rape your contain. Swarm hosts just don't handle zealot/archon very well early in the game. And then he'll laugh at you for going swarmhosts hehe.
Fortunately most protoss don't know what to do and you'll get a lot of wins from them trying for straight up timing attacks greater than 10 minutes.
Eh zealot/archon won't deal with swarmhosts well at all unless you only have like 5. I don't like this 2 base swarmhost but yeah I wouldn't recommend roach/hydra/viper either roach/hydra/swarmhost into fast viper so much stronger.
On April 02 2013 04:33 ManiacTheZealot wrote: I've done this build a lot against all races and I like it. But in some cases its just bad and you shouldn't do it.
For instance against protoss. If you scout him going robo first you should just go into roach/hydra/viper. He's gonna have a warp prism in your base warping in zealots/dts at the same time as you're crossing the map to contain him and then he's just gonna go zealot/archon and totally rape your contain. Swarm hosts just don't handle zealot/archon very well early in the game. And then he'll laugh at you for going swarmhosts hehe.
Fortunately most protoss don't know what to do and you'll get a lot of wins from them trying for straight up timing attacks greater than 10 minutes.
Eh zealot/archon won't deal with swarmhosts well at all unless you only have like 5. I don't like this 2 base swarmhost but yeah I wouldn't recommend roach/hydra/viper either roach/hydra/swarmhost into fast viper so much stronger.
Zealot/archon works great against swarmhosts because the locust just get mowed down and the zealots are cheap effective tanks which also do high dps to the locust. You should have a ton of gas for the archons because you're not using gas for anything else except upgrades. You should be chronoing out +2 weapons asap. And don't put your upgrading forge at the front of your base lol. The locust just don't survive long enough and there's nothing to tank for them early in the game. You only need a couple archons behind the zealots for it to work.
But the real reason it works is because you can't defend your main from the warp prism and expect to do any kind of contain at the same time. Try it if you don't believe me.
If you don't take your third how are you gonna keep up in economy when you don't take your third and your swarmhost push fails how are you gonna manage your production and come along in the late game?
This build is why i drop a blind robo bay even when I'm doing stargate centric build D:
It's very powerful if the swarm hosts get in the right position.... And outright stupid in certain maps.
From a defenders point of view this build becomes exponentially harder to deal with when there's nydus and creep tumors involved.
If you constantly reposition or spread the swarmhosts while spreading creep even if you don't do direct damage you'll delay expos. And swarm hosts are totally sacable since they don't scale too well late game.
I added this build to zergology, with a few minor modifications to gas / lair timing in order to include nydus. I also made did a quick analysis videos of one of your replays and added a few of my own comments.
Do you guys think its viable for Protoss to go FFE --> 2 SG Carrier against this? I've been playing random and messing around with some builds and have had incredible success against the Nydus + Spore + Queen + Swarm Host + Hydra contain. I only have 2-4 carriers out when the attack starts but its enough to keep the locusts from doing much damage and eventually I add a robo / couple observers and break the contain easy.
Is this only because I'm playing at the Platinum / Diamond level where it isn't executed very well? I'm hoping it may even work against better players since I executed it so poorly in my games. (Forgot upgrades, bad macro, etc.) I didn't actually start making the first 2 carriers until there was already a nydus and few SH/spores setup. After I broke the contain I just built up my carrier numbers and eventually pushed out. The Zerg already had 4 bases well established against my 2 but Carriers are so dang good against it that I just went and took out 2 bases like nothing. Finished maxing out and then wiped the rest of the zerg easy. Is this actually viable? Or should I find a better strat against this?
If anyone wants to see the replay...this is me playing like absolute crap...getting way behind but still winning easy with carrier deathball. http://drop.sc/322906
Lol....after watching the replay myself I noticed just how bad my opponent played. Floated a bazillion minerals and didn't get Third up until around 12:30. So I guess you can take this with a big grain of salt.
On March 31 2013 12:35 mookku wrote: I love this build, I am so tired of taking a fast third and trying to scout/guess the protoss 2base allin correctly to actually defend it.
As a Protoss player, I also love this build. I just smashed it on ladder yesterday. If you don't take a third base, I scout you and figure out if it is Spire or Infestation, and then go Double Robo Colossus or Double Stargate Phoenix and collect an easy, easy win. I'm honestly shocked people still do this, especially with a Nydus. If I open Stargate and for some reason my scout gets denied but I know you aren't taking a third, I'll just build a bunch of units and have them patrolling all around my side of the map. You would be surprised how many Worms I pick off until people put one down on their side of the map and slowly crawl toward my base. And then they say gg to my Colossus Stalker deathball.
You should probably fake taking a third base (ie start one and cancel it) with this build. It would add a lot to this build, and would catch people off guard. The lack of a quick third base throws up huge red flags, and makes me scout more, meaning I'm going to know what is coming.
I think that's very well said. I like all the responses saying that protoss should just use sentry energy to scout around 8:00 for the zerg tech path; that seems like a very solid, easy way to figure out what your opponent is doing. I honestly feel like a swarm host contain is very limited and protoss has a lot of answers to it, so I wonder if there's a better way to do this more slowly and safely....
I honestly feel like colos isn't the best answer to this timing.
Pretty sure that Colossus is the only answer. Queens and Spores are too good versus Void Rays for them to work and everything else gets crushed by Locusts. The key to combating two base Swarm Host builds is a counter attack from a Warp Prism or hidden Pylon and building Colossus. The counter attack keeps your opponent from teching, reduces the pressure of the siege and deals damage to his weak economy. Colossus are just the straight up counter to Swarm Hosts and once you crush his army, you march into his base for the win.
Watch as JYP crushes a two base Swarmhost All-in:
I'm really curious about Blade's Roach/Hydra/Swarm Host composition. Seems like a Colossus timing would crush this and you'd have to get superfast Vipers out. How do you afford it all?
Jyp won not because of the colo but because of the phoenix for scouting, then the zealot attack. Also having 5 cannons in front of your base is another plus so that the inital few sh did basically no damage. And denying the 1st nydus delayed the push 30 seconds or so. I've only beaten this build solidly with sg openers, won with other builds simply because the other player was bad. Although the warp prisms are a valid choice, I've never really tried wps that early unless I was allining.