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Hello fellow Terrans. I am currently in mid/high masters league and I have decided to share my awesome TvP build! Never have I embarked on a thread-making journey so please bear with me as I try to explain my gosu Thor-based build.
Where I got the concept:
The idea for this build was truthfully from the games ThorZaIN had against MC, where he went for strike cannon and a bunch of thors. At this time My TvP was pretty garbage and I decided to give it a shot. However, with the strike cannon change and increasing map sizes this build kind of faded out and I never even considered it- until now. Recently I’ve been struggling against protoss once more; late game TvPs are ridiculously hard. Anyhow, after seeing a thread on TvP mech I have decided to formulate my own build.
The build order:
Constant SCVs till around 150 supply (should be slightly oversaturated on each base)
10 depot
12 rax
15 orbital
16 cc at natural (you can go supply depot first, I just like cc before supply depot better)
17 second depot
From here we’ll just list
Double gas around 3:50/ 4:00 mins,
When SCV finishes second depot make it build bunker.
After 4th marine is done cut marine production.
Get factory and reactor and rax.
Scout around 4:00 min
If you scout all in make tech lab on factory, keep reactor on rax and go siege tank marine, turret
if you scout nexus switch reactor and go hellions and get starport as soon a fac is done
Poke with 2 hellions
Get banshees and cloak and double gas at your nat.
Also, get reactor on you rax at around this time
A good poke to make is when you have 12/14 hellions take 2 banshees to main mineral line then run in hellions to the natural to pick of any sentries/zealots.
While doing this when you have 200 gas (while keeping up constant banshees) get 2 factories
The next 100 gas on an armory
Now you have all the buildings you need it should be 2 Techlabbed facs 1 reactor fac 1 reactored rax and 1 techlab starport.
At around 70% of your 5th and 6th thor are making get blue flame and strike cannon.
Reinforce with hellion tank or transition during push.
What you army should be comprised of
http://imageshack.us/f/201/10775441.png/
It should be 6 thors a bunch of blue flame hellions 20 ish marines 6 banshees and a raven.
The upgrades for all the unit cant quite be afforded with your gas income but I have found the most important upgrades are cloak, blue flame, +1 armor and strike cannon. Make sure not to have too few banshees or thors, you need 6 of both of them as there the main DPS in your army. (Also, when you push out grab 20 SCVs for auto repair
How to engage:
There are many different armies Protoss might go for so I’ll try to address all of them.
Standard colossus immortal stalker zealot: This surprisingly is very weak vs thors and hellions. When you engage, you want hellions in front then thors and marine in back banshees near the front as well. Make sure to take 2 thors to snipe any observers so he can’t see cloak banshees. In addition, throw down 2 PDD to make all of his stalkers useless. Now that he has nothing to kill banshees, they will tear down everything else down quite quickly. If he has like 6 colossi/immortals in his army just strike cannon them and enjoy his rage when your hellions clean everything else up. If the engagement is going very well for you can pump 4 hellions at a time to quickly reinforce your army in order to go for the kill.
Any Air plus immortal: This is the easiest to engage as the investment on air and immortals will make it hard for him to have a lot of gateway units making your hellion and marines deadly. Almost the same engage tactics as the colossi/immortal death ball except this time put marines in the front then hellions then thors. Simply strike cannon immortals and your marines and thors wills easily clean up the rest of the air. (Also as a side note if he has a bunch of clumped void rays you can use seeker missile on them to kill all their shields right away.
Templar archon immortal blink stalker: This is the hardest to engage and in my opinion the best response from the protoss for this you want some hellion in front (not all of them, these hellion in front are for KILLING templar there only job is to kill temps and keep them out of range of thors/banshees if you kill temps you will crush the rest of his army) then thors then rest of hellion and marines in back. Banshees in back until obs are sniped. For this engagement it is key you pick of any detection the protoss has obs/cannons when these are dead bring in the banshees the reason this is so important is because you don't want your banshees to be stormed or feed backed before they get into the battle. The thors want to use all there strike cannon on immortals before they get feed backed but if they can’t it’s not end of the world. The reason being is all the banshees in the air killing everything super quick. What makes the push so potent is the banshees. If they die, so will you.
How to transition: While you push/ get maxed build 2 cc in your main and get plus 2 armor and a second armory. What this allows you to transition if he found a way to barley hold this push. The next step is to take a PF, 3rd and to have 2 macro CC’s. GO onto ghost/mech with a heavy transition to siege tanks .after this keep taking expansions, I’m sure you can find mech guides for the next steps of TvP mech so I’ll stop here.
Holding 1 base all ins: This will probably you hardest hump to go over trying this build as holding 1 base all ins can be very difficult but IL give detailed instructions on all of them first off blink all in/dts/void ray all in's :those are all kind of a build order loss. However, I’ll explain how to hold it even within the circumstances. As soon as u identify it’s an all-in (can be hard scouting very important for this build. You change your game play right away. Let’s say the map is antiga the best blink all in map. You would start getting siege tanks and siege mode and keep reactor on rax to make straight marines. You get a eng bay at 6:30 then 3 turrets in good positions (this also kills dt play). 1 on the cliff (if its blink play/void) should have a bunker next to and a siege tank sieged behind it. this will block blink into the main.(also somewhere around 7:20 you can get a sensor tower to see where stalkers/voids are. if he tries to run to natural you should have 2 bunkers there and a 1 tank behind it. Although it’s kind of technical; this setup will deal very well vs all ins and as soon as your hold it you are way ahead. The four gate. This one is simple keep reactor on rax and start tanks and siege. Get 3 bunkers and just mass repair.
Thedreaded proxy immortal: This one is the hardest to stop but its same idea as the 4 gate 3 bunkers and tanks and keep some SCVs near for auto repair focus immortals with marines in bunker when shields are gone let siege tanks kill them (before immortal shields are down tanks should be focusing sentries and stalker).
Random Extra info: If protoss does any really greedy 3 base play (PartinG 3 nexus/7 gate style)
You can be Supper aggressive and kill a ton of probes. Split banshee harasses and hellions at 3rd is a very clean tactic to get a ton of probes. When protoss finally stabilizes and get back to fully saturation you go ramming him down with your maxed death ball when he will just have 100 supply enjoy steam rolling his army :D.
Vs 2 Base all in IE 3 colossi 7-gateway stuff just get a concave on the top of your ramp and it’s very hard for the protoss player to attack into it as soon as you clean up his push just go back to re-maxing and continue the game plan. I just want to add allot of people saying this build won’t work, before you say that go out and try it first. A lot of the time protoss players will not respond right and they will get crushed. I am sure I missed some stuff so if you have any questions please ask them :D
EDIT: ty to my great freind Austin for fixing my awful grammer, also go check out his youtube casts he's a up and coming caster and needs all the support he can have  http://www.youtube.com/user/aust77sc GO CHECK HIM OUT NOW
REPLAYS More to be added soon! http://drop.sc/299215
http://drop.sc/299337
http://drop.sc/299338
http://drop.sc/300529 show how to hold 3 gate pressure and how to engage immortal ht (SNIPE HT WIT HELLION,so they can't get in range to feedback thors/banshees)
http://drop.sc/300531 a variation with 4 tanks and 2 thors that hits at 12:30 (this for everyone saying they want tanks, well here you go! :D
http://drop.sc/300533 a full tank build for you tanky, lovers hits hard with tanks and blue flame helions.
http://drop.sc/300618 goes for blink stalkers and immortals. (close battle but still victorious)
http://drop.sc/300620 How to hold 1 base immortal all in's.
http://drop.sc/300717 Goes for warp prism dts and get shut down pretty hard, I get caught out of position outside my base and HUGE storms and feed backs hit my thors marines and scvs/ Alas the 6 thors could not be stopped.
http://drop.sc/300972 Perfect demonstration of my ANTI 1 base build (holding of blink stalkers) and how to transition.
http://drop.sc/304903 Holding a 6 gate with ease just playing standard and counter attack with helions for the win. ( even got tricked into thinking it was standard play).
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Nothing new here...Same as Lyyna..."No tanks Mech" is not REAL mech.Its another Deathball,but made from mechanical units.This is not what people want to see and neither Blizzard.
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On January 28 2013 03:06 Dvriel wrote:
Nothing new here...Same as Lyyna..."No tanks Mech" is not REAL mech.Its another Deathball,but made from mechanical units.This is not what people want to see and neither Blizzard.
I don't understand how you can say something like that. Do you represent the people and Blizzard together?
I would like more tanks though. I still think tanks are good vs Protoss. It is just a very much different style to play. And most people struggle with mech in general because you have mobility issues compared to Bio play. A very strong opener in addition is a tank siege mode timing attack on 2 base. (2-3 rax + factory) The one that MVP did a lot of times in the GSL.
Good guide though.
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On January 28 2013 04:04 EliteLegend wrote:
Dvriel This push Is Specifically made to hit a timing when protoss is teching up and establshing 3rd its not meant to be a guide how to play mech. Lyyna almost never attacks my style does. His style is to build up and take all the bases on the map not to hit soild timings like mine. Alot of the time this timing out right kill the protoss and that why i wanted to share it. Also I dont think blizz would care whatsoever about this post so not sure why you said that xD. I will add some replays in a bit so people can see how strong this timming actully is.
Ok - nice. Looking forward to the replays.
Do you mind sharing what league you are doing this build successfully in?
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Added My league ty Kab00000000000m (high/mid masters).
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I've been trying to make mech work in TvP with moderate success. My opener is slightly different in that I get my two gases before throwing down the CC. This timing usually works very well because most of the time, by Banshees will hit just as their Observer is making its way across the map. After that I was investing in mostly tanks, with some ghost in the mix. Only problem with that is my big vulnerability to air. Do you really thing Thors are the best way to go? With so many Hellions? Seems like that would get eaten up pretty quick to Archons/Storm and Colossus.
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Storms Can be Good but that's why you bring the scvs to repair the thors, Also i find colsi quite easy to deal with because of strike cannon. The 6 banshees and the ability to pick off the obs with thor plus raven is really the main reason this push is so strong as the protoss does not have much to deal with the banshee plus thor compistion. And sniping obs are really easy to do. Thats what you do vs that, all i add some replays when i face that.
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Also as a stated before this timing hits when protoss is trying to get full staturation and is starting to get alot of tech so its hard for protoss so have colsi immortal archon and storm is just to much gas. And the huge amount of helions is for killing any speed zelots/ gateway units he makes. Helillons trade very well vs all gateway unit and serve as a veru good meat sheild for the thors.
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On January 28 2013 03:06 Dvriel wrote:
Nothing new here...Same as Lyyna..."No tanks Mech" is not REAL mech.Its another Deathball,but made from mechanical units.This is not what people want to see and neither Blizzard.
You start to be REALLLY annoying with that "no tank" thing, considering i basically always include a high amount of tanks in my army except in some pure thor troll games... you never answered my own answer to your totally false post talking about my replays between august and november on the HOTS forum, and you continue to use & spread false "facts"
Interesting play. But the lack of anti-air (except marines) is going to be deadly vs uppgraded toss air + HT imo
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Getting replays right now should be up in like 10 min
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Lyyna like i said this push is Meant to hit a timing, after the push i get my second armory and start pumping tanks. My original push is meant to really kill his 3rd and to cripple his army.
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The problem with tanks is LITERALLY EVERY protoss unit is good (in some way) against them. Chargelots, blink stalkers, sentries(hallucinate immortals, but still probably the weakest toss unit against them), phoenix, void rays, carriers, immortals, colossus, storm, dt's, archons, mothership, prisms(to abuse mobility.) It's impossible for a protoss not to counter tanks.
I will say though, that I've been making a second factory with my bio builds, and getting blue flame. It's really nice to have 10 blue hellions mixed in with bio against protoss.(they keep up with stimmed bio perfectly!) They are great vs chargelots (where a lot of terran units fail), and their mobility gives them a lot of flexibility and map presence. Also, they don't take any extra micro when you are splitting or spreading out your army vs splash dmg. Well worth it to dump some minerals into them, instead of must more marines. Their size also helps a bit against splash dmg. They are nice in combination with concussive as well. The make retreats even more painful, they are great for sniping templar too.
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As soon as i get my replays out you will se how powerfull the thors can be
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On January 28 2013 04:38 EliteLegend wrote:
As soon as i get my replays out you will se how powerfull the thors can be
Thors aren't terrible, the problem is any tech tree has a solid way to deal with them. Robo = immortals or colossus are good vs thors, Templar = feedback, air = void rays. Any of those in combination with chargelots deal with thors pretty well. If I faced your composition as toss, I would feed back the thors, drop storms all over everything and then just try to steam roll with gateway units (maybe a few immortals or colossus mixed in)
But yea hitting a nice mech timing can really work vs toss. But if for whatever reason they are able to delay or pick apart your timing, you will be in a world of hurt when they get their tech up. 14 minutes seems kind of late to not see templar + charglot + (immortal, colossus, or even void) they will know what you are bringing quite early with obs.
It's not that the build itself is bad, but the playstyle overall runs into a ton of problems.
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I just went into a custom game vs A.I. to test out the strike cannon. And damn. That would be really good vs immortals and colossus. I'm going to try that out in a ladder game.
And Thor's strike cannon and attack out ranges the immortal by 1. Awesome.
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Also forgive my horrible english xD
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I just went into a custom game vs A.I. to test out the strike cannon. And damn. That would be really good vs immortals and colossus. I'm going to try that out in a ladder game. As KAb000000m said thors deal well vs immortals and the insane amount of helions kill just rape any amount of speed zelots
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On January 28 2013 04:46 EliteLegend wrote:
I just went into a custom game vs A.I. to test out the strike cannon. And damn. That would be really good vs immortals and colossus. I'm going to try that out in a ladder game. As KAb000000m said thors deal well vs immortals and the insane amount of helions kill just rape any amount of speed zelots
Yes. And the Strike Cannon ignores the Immortal's shield effect. That is very important to know. It basically counters the whole unit with 1 spell. And the spell works as long as you get in range for the start of it.
I honestly thing it is an underestimating build. Especially about the strike cannon. Imagine getting strike cannon off 3 colossus. You basically disable them for 6 seconds, including the damage given to them. Colossi have 2 more range than strike cannon and attack from Thor. So the only issue is getting in there to start the process of the cannon. But I would prioritize using cannon on immortals. This is because Thor's can afford 1 strike cannon max. 150/200 energy.
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On January 28 2013 04:04 EliteLegend wrote:
Dvriel This push Is Specifically made to hit a timing when protoss is teching up and establshing 3rd its not meant to be a guide how to play mech.[...]
So why didn't you call the thread something like Thor/Banshee Timing Attack instead of TvP Mech?
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Thats true Zimms thanks ill change that.
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May I suggest trying to find some of Byun's TvP mech replays.
I also do the hellion cloak banshee opener in my mech, it seems like a pretty safe method of getting up to a mech composition.
However, I use a heavier tank composition with hellions, few thors, vikings, and ghosts instead.
It works incredibly well against the typical protoss death ball composition against bio.
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Yes. And the Strike Cannon ignores the Immortal's shield effect. That is very important to know. It basically counters the whole unit with 1 spell. And the spell works as long as you get in range for the start of it.
I honestly thing it is an underestimating build. Especially about the strike cannon. Imagine getting strike cannon off 3 colossus. You basically disable them for 6 seconds, including the damage given to them. Colossi have 2 more range than strike cannon and attack from Thor. So the only issue is getting in there to start the process of the cannon. But I would prioritize using cannon on immortals. This is because Thor's can afford 1 strike cannon max. 150/200 energy.
Thanks again to KAB00000000M this is the reason why the thors are so powerfull they can wipe 6 colsi/immortals right out of the battle making the engage very easy for you
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Once again anyone asking WHY no TANKS? For the first engage i like to have my thors to deal with any anti air/ colsi that are on the field. If you like tank like armies go look up stimmed probes 5 fac tvp build
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Lynna Sorry if my facts about you were slightly off i have not seen you play for a while i can change my info on you a bit if you want
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But strike cannons cost energy right ? So protoss just need to feedback thors
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On January 28 2013 05:29 KirA_TheGreaT wrote:
But strike cannons cost energy right ? So protoss just need to feedback thors
Yes they cost energy. "150/200" from above post.
Feedback would be good counter. I agree.
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Like i said Feedback is the best response. but even with feed back, killing the thor is very hard as scvs repairing and lack of gas for immortals and stalkers. Also the hellions will act as meat shields for the thors to focus fire immortals, and don't forget about those banshees these are the key.
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IN the replay i posted i forgot to use strike cannon and even though i forgot it i still destroyed him same idea can be applied with feedbacked thors
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Downloaded the replay. Going to get some popcorn! :D
Btw.: you should include a replay with a successful strike cannon battle too. Would be great!
Good work.
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lol ty going to get some more replays today
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Watched the replay. You smashed him lol. Even with bad position.
How did you take out that observer so fast? Do the Thors prioritize air vs ground? (It is hard to see the obs when it is flying close to colossus)
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I focused the obs down right away with 2 obs
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Added another rep of high temp colsi immortal
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I watched 2nd replay. There were no high templar in it though. Maybe you posted the wrong replay?
But I am still waiting for a nice strike cannon replay! 
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Ya Fixed 2nd replay it was wrong xD end 2 is good with strike cannons
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Nice. Thanks! Will watch it NOW! :D
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Added another game where the engage does not go so well(FD up my control bad) but still overran him.
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Do you have any replays where you start the fight with strike cannons or you use them in the first BIG engagement? In the last replay #2 you only used in the end where it kind of didn't do anything since the game was over already.
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This isn't really a build, more of a 2 base all in. Not even a mech one at that.
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kollin your dumb. Its not a build? Imo? and its kinda of a 2base all in but you double expand behind it so if you dont kill his 3rd(you almost always kill 3rd) you can take a pf and a macro cc. And not mech? lol? its 6 thors 20 helions and 6 banshees and some marines. Why is that not mech? the marines?? xD dude its mech the marines are just there for anti air in case of carriers so really not sure what you were thinking when you made your comment.
User was warned for this post
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Ok, I phrased myself incorrectly. Not a viable build. This is a 2 base all in, as you are completely and utterly fucked tech wise if you do not win the game because you have no upgrades at all. Why you'd build marines for carriers, which could not possibly be out at that time anyway, makes no sense at all. And don't even think about calling thors mech units. What thors are is bigger, more expensive tankier marines. Most definitely not mech units.
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On January 28 2013 09:10 kollin wrote:
Ok, I phrased myself incorrectly. Not a viable build. This is a 2 base all in, as you are completely and utterly fucked tech wise if you do not win the game because you have no upgrades at all. Why you'd build marines for carriers, which could not possibly be out at that time anyway, makes no sense at all. And don't even think about calling thors mech units. What thors are is bigger, more expensive tankier marines. Most definitely not mech units.
I don't understand. The build has upgrades for mech units from armory. I believe his tech is good considering he has starport and armory. Agree on marines vs carriers. But how can you say that Thors arent mech units?
I would argue that he is fucked if he doesn't end. But not because of upgrades. But because that he has not enough factories to reproduce - and it is an expensive army. (on 2 base that is)
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I don't think you really understand what the meaning of a mech unit entails. I suggest you search for Falling's excellent post titled 'In Defence of Mech'. That should clear up some things. You also made a valid point with how you cannot reproduce quickly enough.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure that opener just dies to any 6 gates or immortal busts as well.
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Thors not mech units......??????? um ok sure why not, and by 14 mins you can have 2 carriers out or some air, the point about the marines is actully kinda wrong i kind of just make them for the extra dps and cuase i have some extra mins for my build XD. sry if i came across as a dick I just misundertood you.
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But this build is meant to kill his 3rd and cripple his army to allow give you the TIME (very important) to build up you gost mech. With seige tanks upgrades hellion and gosts. And the push its self usually kill the protoss anyway
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6 gates are actully damn easy to,hold the hellions wipe the zealots and when thors pop out mass repair just kills everything else. Immortal busts can be harder to stop but the genral idea is just to focus immortals and then mass repair on thors wipes out the rest of the stuff.
User was warned for this post
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If your opponent has 2 carriers out by the 14 minute mark you're probably playing BW. If you come to your senses and realise you are playing SC2 then you should also realise he has literally no ground army and win. I can tell you didn't read the article I pointed you to, because you completely ignored what I said. Then you proceeded to ignore what I said again, saying you can transition to ghost mech from your non existent economy, non existent production and non existent upgrades. I don't care if the push kills the Protoss, because my initial point was that this build is an all in that cannot hold any early game all ins itself.
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On January 28 2013 09:29 EliteLegend wrote:
6 gates are actully damn easy to,hold the hellions wipe the zealots and when thors pop out mass repair just kills everything else. Immortal busts can be harder to stop but the genral idea is just to focus immortals and then mass repair on thors wipes out the rest of the stuff.
Hellions don't wipe out zealots when they cannot kite them, which they shouldn't be able to do if your opponent has some degree of skill. And trust me, even mass repairing if your opponent focuses down the SCV's with the zealots and the thors with everything else, they will break through. I have tried mech in tvp countless, countless times and while it is possible, this is not the way.
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kollin il send you a game were i hold a 7 gate with ease its actually easier than you think
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I said 6 gate and, far more importantly, immortal bust.
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But if I would play mech to make good economy. I would play defensively rather than attacking. And just dropping hellions to buy time. Tanks too for that matter. Scouting to see if he has many colossi or not - to make vikings or not. Turret up the map for air defense and against drops. And slowly macro up. Ghosts are extremely expensive. And you need at least 3 base to be able to mass produse tanks, thors, hellions + ghosts.
I think if you lose your army that early with mech. You are dead anyways.
But I like the aggressive approach of the strategy. It is strong no doubt about that.
The only thing that could be changed would be more vikings for the potential and most probably colossi that are coming.
--- It is little probability that the thors will be able to get in range to use strike cannons on the colossi.
I read the whole thread. "In defense of Mech" by Falling. But I can not agree that a thor is similar to a marine. And I still believe that a thor is a mech unit. But it is not the same kind as in the siege tank's function. It is kind of like SC2's version of "new" mech. Don't know how to describe it correctly but I think you understand what I mean, but not necessarily agree of course.
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K il try to find some games when i defend that.
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I agree with your first paragraph completely, as you are correct. The second paragraph as well, though banshees are generally better than vikings. The last paragraph, I disagree with. In the other two matchups, mech has the exact same definition as in BW. Yet for some reason in TvP, people want this 'new-age mech' that doesn't comply with what mech is in other matchups and has ever been in other games.
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On January 28 2013 09:54 kollin wrote:
I agree with your first paragraph completely, as you are correct. The second paragraph as well, though banshees are generally better than vikings. The last paragraph, I disagree with. In the other two matchups, mech has the exact same definition as in BW. Yet for some reason in TvP, people want this 'new-age mech' that doesn't comply with what mech is in other matchups and has ever been in other games.
Oh god sorry. I'm getting tired. Forgot about the banshees. Never mind the vikings.
But it sounds like we are agreeing on the thor. (not saying you said thor is mech unit)
It is SC2's new version of mech unit. But I agree that thors might not be the best against toss. I would still like more tanks instead. More hellions, or less. More banshees. More turrets. More BC?
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No I think we disagree. I'm saying in every other matchup, mech is essentially the same as it was in BW, but not TvP because people build thors which despite being mechanical units do not fit in with the underlying concept of the mech army.
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I don't know if it is me or that I am just tired. But I agree with you. But your saying we disagree. Honestly I don't care what we call it a disagreement or an agreement. I think the thors mess up the mech play. And they are extremely expensive - which is one of my reasons I do not like them in general. edit: obviously the slow production time!
But you can play mech the same way vs protoss. The thor part I have neither any clue why specifically they are popular vs P. I especially love Flash's tank builds vs toss. Not that he does it a lot.
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On January 28 2013 10:10 kollin wrote:
No I think we disagree. I'm saying in every other matchup, mech is essentially the same as it was in BW, but not TvP because people build thors which despite being mechanical units do not fit in with the underlying concept of the mech army.
...underlying concept of mech. As in what people think...which is an opinion. Just because it doesn't fit into what you call mech....it's mech. What does that litttttttle adjective under the thor attack and armor levels say...?
MECHANICAL
Stop the trivial "this isn't mech" arguments.
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Sigh i need to explain something as allot of people i guess are just dumb. My build is meant for a TIMING to hit vs protoss I AM NOT saying build thors all game, nor am i saying don't build tanks. This build ALLOWS you the time to build your 3rd upgrades and most importantly ghost tech. The attack hits very strong and can kill the 3rd or his entire army allot of the time. The first push delays his economy and more importantly and chance of him attacking you any time because he has to rebuild his army and his tech before he does that. Also allot of people saying lol 2 base all in. It can be a 2 base all in if you identify that he is going to die to the push and just reinforce hellions and tanks(fast build times). However you can always just throw couple off cc's, a 2nd armory and start pumping tanks and more fac's. and most importantly get some ghosts out. Remember the point of the thors is to snipe obs and to strike cannon immortals, which tanks can't do. I'm not saying don't build tanks im saying start off with thors then transition later. Hope the clears up any confusion.
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Thank you for insulting me in the first sentence of your post. That is quite appreciated. I realise what your build is and what you intend it to be. However, it is a 2 base all in, as if you do not do a huge amount of economical damage to your opponent you lose. You cannot reinforce with tanks because the armor upgrade is bad on them, and you don't have siege mode. You cannot reinforce with thors because building 2 a minute will be insta death to a counter attack from Protoss. So what can you reinforce with? Nothing, because you screwed yourself over after all inning and not winning.
In response to iAmJeffrey, mech is a concept not a label and should be treated as a concept and nothing else.
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Ok sorry kolling if that came across to you but its not only to you its to everyone. Also sorry i said that, that was kinda stupid. Anyway the point you made about potential counter attacks can be true however this timing is so strong that allot of the time they simply don't have the army to counter attack even if they do hold it. And more importantly if identify that he going to counter attack you can research siege and get tanks and make a sim city while you counter attack with hellions and banshees. This will for sure cause huge eco loss for him. if he pulled back good you have the time to stabilize. if he goes in for the kill you can lift your 3rd and just mass repair your super sim city with tanks behind them. even if you loss allot you should ok because of the counter attack damage you caused so much eco loss. And dont forget its very hard for the protoss player to have a army to destroy mine at the 14:30 mark its just physicaly impossible to have eco/tech/army at the same time you can only have 2 of the 3 and in each case you can kill most of his army. Hope that helps and sorry for being kind of defensive
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So after your attack, you have the money to double expand, add on production an armory a barracks a ghost academy as well as sim city, after you just killed some of your SCV's on 2 bases. That doesn't seem likely. Furthermore, at the 14:30 mark a Protoss can quite easily have a sizeable immortal archon army, which you may not be able to engage if the Protoss isn't dumb and microes correctly.
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On January 28 2013 10:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 10:10 kollin wrote:
No I think we disagree. I'm saying in every other matchup, mech is essentially the same as it was in BW, but not TvP because people build thors which despite being mechanical units do not fit in with the underlying concept of the mech army. ...underlying concept of mech. As in what people think...which is an opinion. Just because it doesn't fit into what you call mech....it's mech. What does that litttttttle adjective under the thor attack and armor levels say...? MECHANICAL Stop the trivial "this isn't mech" arguments.
I agree with you. I'm sick and tired of this. MECH has always meant factory units -- even for you BW fans. What is so hard to understand about it? And if you cannot except that -- stop claiming that your opinion is official, because I don't believe Blizzard ever said anything about what is mech and what isn't.
(Now just a quick note: because of the mechanical unit status in SC2, there is a newer but less common meaning that mech = factory/starport, though I don't agree with changing the term that way because you wouldn't call Colossi nor Sentries mech...)
Here's a very simple argument:
Bio in SC1 and SC2 are different.
Mech in SC1 and SC2 are different.
Do you still call bio in SC2 bio? Yes.
Should you call mech in SC2 mech? Yes.
Do bio and mech still fit their rough opposite concepts of "fast, mobile, weak" and "slow, immobile, strong"? Yes.
Are Goliaths Tanks? No.
Are Thors Tanks? No.
Are Goliaths a mech unit? Yes. Are they a tank? No.
Are Thors a mech unit? Yes. Are they a tank? No.
Other random stuff: Bio can be played both like... bio, but it can also be more positional. Look at Bomber's TvZ marine tank for example. He turtles and plays like a mech player. Is this mech? No, it's positional bio play that has similarities to mech.
Mech can be played like bio... AKA thor based compositions. It's more mobile than tanks, but it's still immobile, slow, and strong, and although much less positional than a tank, it has positional usage in situations that bio units do not. Does this mean you suddenly call this bio...?
Mech is the entire factory tech tree and any combination of strategy/composition within that tech tree. I don't see what's so hard to understand? Tank heavy mech play isn't the only way to play mech, similar to as how harassing and dropping everywhere isn't the only way to play bio.
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On January 29 2013 08:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 10:48 iAmJeffReY wrote:On January 28 2013 10:10 kollin wrote:
No I think we disagree. I'm saying in every other matchup, mech is essentially the same as it was in BW, but not TvP because people build thors which despite being mechanical units do not fit in with the underlying concept of the mech army. ...underlying concept of mech. As in what people think...which is an opinion. Just because it doesn't fit into what you call mech....it's mech. What does that litttttttle adjective under the thor attack and armor levels say...? MECHANICAL Stop the trivial "this isn't mech" arguments. I agree with you. I'm sick and tired of this. MECH has always meant factory units -- even for you BW fans. What is so hard to understand about it? And if you cannot except that -- stop claiming that your opinion is official, because I don't believe Blizzard ever said anything about what is mech and what isn't. (Now just a quick note: because of the mechanical unit status in SC2, there is a newer but less common meaning that mech = factory/starport, though I don't agree with changing the term that way because you wouldn't call Colossi nor Sentries mech...) Here's a very simple argument: Bio in SC1 and SC2 are different. Mech in SC1 and SC2 are different. Do you still call bio in SC2 bio? Yes. Should you call mech in SC2 mech? Yes. Do bio and mech still fit their rough opposite concepts of "fast, mobile, weak" and "slow, immobile, strong"? Yes. Are Goliaths Tanks? No. Are Thors Tanks? No. Are Goliaths a mech unit? Yes. Are they a tank? No. Are Thors a mech unit? Yes. Are they a tank? No.
Mech always meant factory units in BW, a game in which every single factory unit had its own specific role and could be clearly identified from every single other unit in the terran arsenal. Bio in BW and SC2 aren't that different, admittedly you don't have the marauder but apart from that the same concept of marines and then healing units and the ghosts (science vessels in BW) still applies. Goliaths are a mech unit because they require the Charon Boosters upgrade to be good. When you d have it, you have to know how to position your goliaths or you die. You have to know how to position your tanks and your spider mines, or you die. In Starcraft 2, mech has apparently turned into A-move your blob of unmicroeable death into mine and we will see who wins.
EDIT: Out of interest, what positional based tactics can you do with a thor?
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Also, Bomber's TvZ is centred around hitting timing attacks and then sending wave after wave of units at his opponent until he breaks through. That is not 'mech-like' that is efficiently executing a timing and then using the advantages of bio, fast reinforce time, to keep going with your aggression.
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What kind of arbitrary requirement or rule is that? That Goliaths are mech and not thors simply because goliaths have an upgrade in the factory tech tree? What if I were to say that I think goliaths aren't mech units because I think requiring an armory is more tech heavy than a goliath needing to upgrade charon booster?
You say bio isn't that different, that's not the point. The point is that it IS different.
Again -- there are different styles for both bio and mech in SC2. And you say mech is unmicroeable, which is untrue. When you exaggerate and leave out so many details, it's impossible to properly discuss anything. I think we can all agree that all units are microeable and that you should always micro them to the best potential if you want to win. Even a bio player who is very ahead can just A-move, does that mean that bio isn't bio anymore because they won the game through A-moving and not dropping and harassing?
About Bomber's TvZ -- it's not EXACTLY like BW tank heavy mech. You cannot be EXACTLY the same -- it's all subjective. I'm not saying he's playing exactly like BW mech, but rather there are qualities that are attributed to either Bio or Mech (or both), and Bomber's play is just one example that mixes qualities from both tech trees. Some qualities of why Bomber's TvZ has aspects similar to mech for example -- it's very turtley and defensive, instead of relying on microing a bunch of units in small numbers. He relies more on t he positioning of the attack, and sieging up, similar to mech, as positioning for mech is more important than the actual battle micro (nothing much you can do besides target fire).
About Thors -- for example, splitting them up against blings or spreading them around to cover your tanks from Mutalisks. Now, for the banelings, I'm being serious -- if you remember Nada vs Nestea on bel'shir beach, Nada clumped up all his units for a brief period and Nestea saw that and killed him with mass banelings, regardless of all the blue flame hellions in front of Nada's Thors. Going back even further, Boxer vs Zenio on Terminus -- he avoided this fate by splitting up his Thors and moving them forward carefully. This was before BL/inefstor was super popular as it is now, and they still used bling/ling/muta often with roach/infestor support.
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Your arguments have stopped making sense. You don't even know what you are talking about in regards to BW mech and clearly did not read what I wrote, and if you did failed to comprehend it. My first, and rather irrelevant point would be goliaths did need an armory to be built. Next, thors do not require any positioning and you still have not provided an example where they do. Goliaths did because they were a bit squishy and had a weak ground attack.
You say bio isn't that different, that's not the point. The point is that it IS different
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, I counteracted what you said and you seem to respond b saying 'No that's wrong' without using evidence or reasoning to back up that claim.
If we take what you say as true, that an army comprised of only thors is a mech army, then it is unmicroeable, apart from Strike Cannons which are useless against everything other than immortals anyway. The standard tank hellion style of mech does not require a great deal of micro, yes some, but not much as it is more about positioning more than anything else. Finally, what makes bio what it is is not that you have to micro in a fight. It is that you have to be the aggressor most of the time, the one who is dodging in and out poking holes in your opponent until you can break through, using quick reinforce time to help you do that.
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Whatever, this argument is not worth it, you have your opinion I have mine. Good night.
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Yes, but an armory in SC1 and SC2 are different -- for example, in SC2 it is more expensive. And all the other differences in the game. What I was saying with that little part is that you can't compare the game 1:1.
My point regarding bio being different, is not saying you are wrong. Also you did not counter my point at all. You said it's not very different, which means it IS different. Therefore you are in agreement with me, and the rest of my logic (for now) is true.
Basically that argument was saying that you cannot (objectively) say that mass thors are not mech since they are factory units. It's like a double standard, saying that "bio is different, but barracks heavy comps are still bio in SC2" while you're making mass thors an exception.
My evidence or reasoning? That was in the rest of my argument.
Again maybe it's just because I was editing my post, I have provided examples where Thors have been micro'd. Also there is no way you can claim that Thors, a unit that is controllable by a player, is not microeable. And if you are exaggerating, that really doesn't help discussions.
I am not defining bio solely by the micro in fights. However, the emphasis (due to limit of time) for bio is placed more heavily on the micro in fights, while the emphasis for mech is more on the positioning. For example, siege tanks sieged late or in the wrong spot can be really really hurtful, while it's not so bad with bio. Exactly as you say, tank hellion style is more about positioning.
Might I also add that bio did not even work lategame in SC1? Therefore, tvp bio in SC2 is quite different from tvp bio in SC1. Do you still consider tvp bio in SC2 to be bio?
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Yes it did work late game SK Terran in TvZ. I am actually exhausted so that's the only thing I can be bothered to say ^^
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I said TvP not TvZ haha, but ok goodnight z66
After reading some of the earlier comments:
For immortal busts, can't you simply defend with mass repair + 5 bunkers and focus down immortals with banshees?
Regarding 6 gate, I thought it was commonly believed that a expand (gasless or with gas) can defend with 2 thors + bunkers in time? Because back then MVP would always do some sort of 111 expand or expand into 111 into 222 build TvP. Also if he's doing a super early all-in 6 gate you can tell by his probe count, and should be able to adjust by going either tanks or thors or just making a loot of bunkers, etc.
(might need to adapt and get thors out before banshees or cut hellions, etc.)
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Ok final, final comment. I promise. TvP bio was never viable unless as some weird one base all in that hasnt worked for years anyway.
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I appreciate you all for debating this in here. I learned a lot just by reading your comments. Thank you all.
For me. I don't think it matters what mech play means. But I like new type of strategies that are different from the current meta game. I personally like Marine+Tank composition vs protoss. Add some banshees into that now and then. I especially like the Siege tank + marine push from 2 base.
From what I have read. The only thing I like thors for is the strike cannon against immortals. It actually kills the immortal with +1 armor (it also kills a colossus with +1 armor). I found that quite interesting.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
What happens if you just feedback thors?
You don't seem to be understanding what people mean by no tanks btw, they are talking about the tank being the basis of mech, the basis of your composition is Thor banshee and whilst yes it is mechanical, It doesn't fulfill the concept of mech play. It would better be summed up by factory play.
Not to detract from the build, I'm sure it works, but it's not true mech in what most people believe.
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I don't understand why people care about if it is called mech or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't matter. The build is still the same.
Feedback removes energy and damages the thors.
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Could this build defend all in's? or rather, what would happen if you scout 2 gas? how would you try and defend stuff that might come out of 2 gas (blink stalkers, void ray's etc)
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 29 2013 23:11 KAB00000000M wrote:
I don't understand why people care about if it is called mech or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't matter. The build is still the same.
Feedback removes energy and damages the thors.
I know what feedback does, I'm interested in what happens if you go up against someone who got ht instead of colossi first. They would be able to feedback both thors and banshees.
The reason people care about it being mech or not is because people came here expecting a mech build, which this, by traditional ideas of mech, is not.
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On January 30 2013 00:01 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 23:11 KAB00000000M wrote:
I don't understand why people care about if it is called mech or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't matter. The build is still the same.
Feedback removes energy and damages the thors. I know what feedback does, I'm interested in what happens if you go up against someone who got ht instead of colossi first. They would be able to feedback both thors and banshees. The reason people care about it being mech or not is because people came here expecting a mech build, which this, by traditional ideas of mech, is not.
Ok. I'm not sure which one is better against this strategy. But it is interesting though! Good point.
Hard to tell. I think if the ht manage to get all the energy away from the thors. The thors will be raped by the immortals. Immortals eat thors.
This actually got me to think. I wonder what people in general will react to seeing thor tech against them. Obviously make immortals. But will they guess that strike cannons are coming? Will they feedback or will they use storm?
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 30 2013 00:15 KAB00000000M wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 00:01 Targe wrote:On January 29 2013 23:11 KAB00000000M wrote:
I don't understand why people care about if it is called mech or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't matter. The build is still the same.
Feedback removes energy and damages the thors. I know what feedback does, I'm interested in what happens if you go up against someone who got ht instead of colossi first. They would be able to feedback both thors and banshees. The reason people care about it being mech or not is because people came here expecting a mech build, which this, by traditional ideas of mech, is not. Ok. I'm not sure which one is better against this strategy. But it is interesting though! Good point. Hard to tell. I think if the ht manage to get all the energy away from the thors. The thors will be raped by the immortals. Immortals eat thors. This actually got me to think. I wonder what people in general will react to seeing thor tech against them. Obviously make immortals. But will they guess that strike cannons are coming? Will they feedback or will they use storm?
If someone sees thors they will most probably get HT, just because the thors don't have strike cannon doesn't mean they don't have energy i.e. regardless of whether you get strike cannon they will get HT.
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On January 30 2013 00:22 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 00:15 KAB00000000M wrote:On January 30 2013 00:01 Targe wrote:On January 29 2013 23:11 KAB00000000M wrote:
I don't understand why people care about if it is called mech or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't matter. The build is still the same.
Feedback removes energy and damages the thors. I know what feedback does, I'm interested in what happens if you go up against someone who got ht instead of colossi first. They would be able to feedback both thors and banshees. The reason people care about it being mech or not is because people came here expecting a mech build, which this, by traditional ideas of mech, is not. Ok. I'm not sure which one is better against this strategy. But it is interesting though! Good point. Hard to tell. I think if the ht manage to get all the energy away from the thors. The thors will be raped by the immortals. Immortals eat thors. This actually got me to think. I wonder what people in general will react to seeing thor tech against them. Obviously make immortals. But will they guess that strike cannons are coming? Will they feedback or will they use storm? If someone sees thors they will most probably get HT, just because the thors don't have strike cannon doesn't mean they don't have energy i.e. regardless of whether you get strike cannon they will get HT.
I know they get energy. But yeah I want to see more games of Thors vs Toss. I think it is an interesting build.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 30 2013 00:34 KAB00000000M wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 00:22 Targe wrote:On January 30 2013 00:15 KAB00000000M wrote:On January 30 2013 00:01 Targe wrote:On January 29 2013 23:11 KAB00000000M wrote:
I don't understand why people care about if it is called mech or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't matter. The build is still the same.
Feedback removes energy and damages the thors. I know what feedback does, I'm interested in what happens if you go up against someone who got ht instead of colossi first. They would be able to feedback both thors and banshees. The reason people care about it being mech or not is because people came here expecting a mech build, which this, by traditional ideas of mech, is not. Ok. I'm not sure which one is better against this strategy. But it is interesting though! Good point. Hard to tell. I think if the ht manage to get all the energy away from the thors. The thors will be raped by the immortals. Immortals eat thors. This actually got me to think. I wonder what people in general will react to seeing thor tech against them. Obviously make immortals. But will they guess that strike cannons are coming? Will they feedback or will they use storm? If someone sees thors they will most probably get HT, just because the thors don't have strike cannon doesn't mean they don't have energy i.e. regardless of whether you get strike cannon they will get HT. I know they get energy. But yeah I want to see more games of Thors vs Toss. I think it is an interesting build.
Pretty sure Thor rush + scv has been done a lot, try searching that.
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On January 30 2013 01:19 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 00:34 KAB00000000M wrote:On January 30 2013 00:22 Targe wrote:On January 30 2013 00:15 KAB00000000M wrote:On January 30 2013 00:01 Targe wrote:On January 29 2013 23:11 KAB00000000M wrote:
I don't understand why people care about if it is called mech or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't matter. The build is still the same.
Feedback removes energy and damages the thors. I know what feedback does, I'm interested in what happens if you go up against someone who got ht instead of colossi first. They would be able to feedback both thors and banshees. The reason people care about it being mech or not is because people came here expecting a mech build, which this, by traditional ideas of mech, is not. Ok. I'm not sure which one is better against this strategy. But it is interesting though! Good point. Hard to tell. I think if the ht manage to get all the energy away from the thors. The thors will be raped by the immortals. Immortals eat thors. This actually got me to think. I wonder what people in general will react to seeing thor tech against them. Obviously make immortals. But will they guess that strike cannons are coming? Will they feedback or will they use storm? If someone sees thors they will most probably get HT, just because the thors don't have strike cannon doesn't mean they don't have energy i.e. regardless of whether you get strike cannon they will get HT. I know they get energy. But yeah I want to see more games of Thors vs Toss. I think it is an interesting build. Pretty sure Thor rush + scv has been done a lot, try searching that.
ok thanks
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Added 3 more games each with different variations on the build.
EDIT: also added a how to hold 1 base all in section
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In the OP I noticed you actually said throw down 3 CC's, not 2 as well as armory production etc. How much bloody money do you have when you push out, because if you are still macroing when your stuff dies you simply should not be able to afford all that you can. Also what if your opponent sacks his third base, and turtles at his natural with cannons? You have done minimal damage (400 minerals + mining time) and are still on 2 bases yourself with an awful economy and composition. One last thing, is it actually possible to defend a blink stalker build with this?
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Very good question kollin ( said 3 cc by accident ty for catching that). The reason your money gets so high is because since your maxed and still need to go across the map you money really gets up by the time you get there. As you are engaging you can decide to spend your money on A: 2 ccs and second armory/more facs. OR B mOAR Helions/tanks to reinforce quickly and go for the kill. If the engage is close i almost always follow it up with 2 cc and a armory which you can afford with your bank going up so fast when your maxed. Also you can cut production while your engaging to afford all the cc/fac/armories you need then go back to tank if you need to defend potential counter threats.
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You can't cut production if there is any possibility of a counter attack. Until you get a large amount of them, tanks suck against protoss. They are really awful, especially against a protoss which most likely will have chargelots and/or blink stalkers. On top of that, I don't think you need double armory, at least until you transition to bc ghost. The upgrade tanks want is attack, as plating is only good against zealots which shouldn't be hitting your tanks anyway.
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Here the catch tho. This timing push is SO strong that its ALMOST impossible to have a huge army by the time I attack (ive beaten gms with it ya GMS) So the threat a strong counter attack is almost non existent. If they are mc level and have perfect macro and timings. Yes they will crush the attack and go kill me. However no where i pointed out this would work at the tip top level. It's simply a clever build I came up with and wanted to share because of its success for me in high masters. The simple fact is the timing is so strong they just cannot have a 150 plus army(in high master/low gm) and be able to crush me and counter attack for the win.
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At the 15 minute mark most protoss' would have a 150+ food army, with either a sizeable amount of collosus' or high templars, or even both. And you still haven't answered my question, can you defend blink stalker all in?
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Kollin go look at tvp games and look at the protoss cam at 14:30 (not 15:00) most of the time not 150 plus. As for holding blink all in's that's kinda of a build order loss. But il explain how to hold it even within the circumstances. As soon as u identify its a blink all in (can be hard scouting very important for this build. You change you game play right away. Lets say the map is antiga the best blink all in map. You would start getting seige tanks and seige mode and keep reactor on rax to make straight marines. you get a eng bay at 6:30 then 3 turrets in good positions (this also kills dt play). 1 on the cliff should have a bunker next to and a siege tank sieged behind it. this will block blink into the main.(also somewere around 7:20 you can get a sensor tower to see where stalker are. if he tries to run to natrual you should have 2 bunkers there and a 1 tank behind it. Although its kinda of technical this setup will deal very well vs the blink all in and as soon as your hold it you are way ahead
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Adding a 1 base all in section right now btw
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Also kollin if you watch my 4th and 5th uploaded games you'l see some tank variation of my build. the 4th replay hits very early at 12:30 so if you like that timming better you can try that. Both work but i simply like my thor build because ive had more success with with it
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Love the replays so far. Keep them coming.
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Read 5 pages of this and I have to agree with Kollin, just saying. And btw, this isn't new since few people did the same similar build before like: timing attack, marines mix, banshee etc ... just a variation
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326037
I still prefer Sea TvP Mech very consistent but does require a lot of skills
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Yeah I think the Sea TvP is a really good build too. I've had a lot of success with it.
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Like I said guys, if you don't the thor style (Please try it before judging) i gave 2 extra replays #4 and #5 to suit a more tank heavy style. Never said this was never attempted before. However i just wanted to share because of the success i have had with it and i felt like people at the plat to diamond level would benefit the most from it. Also I never really helped the community out so i though might as well, you know paying it forward.
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Added some more replays :D seems like this is getting alot of attention ty for all the feedback its greatly appreciated.
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Having played numerous games vs EliteLegend in tournaments and a couple of ladder, i can attest to the strength of this build. This build is a little different to the gas builds he use to do whenever i've played him, but the style itself is very strong.
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Hi !
I tried your build and there are many things that can be improved imo.
First I would try to finish the wall before the probe comes, so that the P player can't see your going gasless fast expand. It avoids a lot of all-inish strategies by the P player.
In your games, your harass is quiete limited imo, you're a little too passive and doing only macro. I think it's possible to harass more with hellion's mobility / banshee without committing too much. I feel constant harassing / scouting with helion gives precious information about what the protoss is doing and makes him uncomfortable to leave his base.
Thanks to you I rediscovered how 250mm cannons were insane vs immortal. I also feel that upgrading armor is better than upgrading weapons.
I'm not sure how non upgraded marines help after 13 min game... Maybe tech-labbed rax with 2 3 ghost is better in case of storm / archon. This delays your push for sure... Not sure what is the most efficient...
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Hi Lloyd :D. I agree with your comment, i simmply dont do because im lazy xD. Well not exactly but the reason i don't do it is when i do he ffs my helions out and i lose em. and with the banshees in most of my games i do some pokes but i agree that i should harass more with them. I simmply dont have the apm to double banshee harass keeping both alive keep making units and suplly depots on time. Im lazy so i just chose the easiest path the macro. XD But by no means i think its wrong to harass alot with helion banshee im simmply not fast im sure some more apm heavy players could pull this off. And for the gosts its a cool idea, but it just costs to much gas. You are already gas deprived for this build trying to sqeeze 3 gosts in and delay the push by 2 min is just not worth it. The extra marine are there becuse you have a little to much minrals for this build. You can cut out the marines and get a fast 3rd if you wanted to. I like to get the marines JUST in case of some weird air build and to just add a little extra dps to my army. And Lastly the 1 rax expo thing, i find it quite easy to hold 1 base all ins since ive had so much practice vs them ( just uploading a game of me holding blink all in. My anti 1 base builds hold ofs bascily erveything so not to worried about 1 base all ins. But theres nothing wrong with going supply depot before cc for me its just a personal prefrence
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I'm not high level enough to criticize the play, but please put some effort into cleaning up the OP. It needs some work on formatting, grammar and punctuation.
Also, your replays use a lot of different compositions and different attack timings with little explanation of your reasoning for making these changes (except for the main 2 base timing you focus on in the OP).
Right now, you have proven that you can beat master level protoss, and if the point of the thread is for you to convince people that you can do that, well done. But if you actually want people to be able to learn and give constructive criticism (hell, maybe even figure out ways to make your build better) you need to put in some work.
Here are a couple of examples of guides that are better formatted. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=241247
I like the idea and I would like to see it tested, but right now I think a lot of the people that would have good input won't read it, because the OP is so gross to read.
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Ya I agree XD. Like I said I have never made a thread before and i have not really seen many either so thank you for input il try to change op. And for the grammer, I can try to fix but Im not great at english so you will have to endure that xD.
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Also the ammount of work that LemonyTang put in is riduclous (probs to him tho) I simmply dont have the time to make it that orginized
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I liked the OP. I honestly think a person is lazy if he can't read it. (Not saying it is the most organized either)
I think most of guides are made too simple or too title-ish. Sort of like an easy look-in guide to use when in game. If you are used to reading books it takes a quick blink of an eye to read it. But if you would want the guide to be top notch, as Mr. Black said. You should work on it, just a little.
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But the grammar and punctuation REALLY need improving. Still not convinced of this build, seems like most competent Protoss' would just build cannons and high templar then win.
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Ya changed the OP and i might fix a couple of other things but don't expect anthing amazing. But Thankyou for feedback.
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Fixed some of the grammer, Kollin out of curiosity what league are you in?, Also what race?
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On February 01 2013 05:47 kollin wrote:
But the grammar and punctuation REALLY need improving. Still not convinced of this build, seems like most competent Protoss' would just build cannons and high templar then win.
The way you come out seems like it is a personal thing. And especially the caps on "really". It makes it harder to take you seriously. Although I took you seriously the whole way through this thread. If you play Toss can you show some replays when you beat this build? I play random. And I want to see some good strategies to beat this build because ironically I am actually losing a lot of toss games vs this strat lately.
(I am master league Europe. If my knowledge sounds limited. I can tell you that my macro/mechanics is by far my strength. And my strategy/decision are my worst by far)
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EliteLegend diamond terran, but I don't play anymore. I just watch SC2 so I can be up to date knowledge rise for when I write for TL. And I capitalised the really for emphasis, I probably could have just used italics ^^
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Ya kollin like i said it might sound bad on paper, but untill you try it or play aginst you don't realise how fast it hits. But there is flaws with my build, just like any build and i thankyou for all the feedback. A first i though you were some 12 year troll but now i understand you are quite educated after that argument with yoshi ( that was fun to read ) But again thankyou for feedback and keep it coming :D
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Well, it's another mass Thor timing attack, we kind of knew about these for some time no?
The only mech builds i know of are sea and gorapadong (beautiful timing attack). Sorry for being slightly off topic, but it would be nice if people would experiment more with actual "mech" instead of just massing thors.
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Perhaps the NTT air terran banshee strat could be tried again. It used to work for me back 1 year ago especially vs zerg master players on EU.
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Hey added another game of me just CRUSHING the so called "counter to my build" the 6 gate
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i'm only diamond, but i have made a solid build against any kinda of rush, that allow you to expand safely
10 supply
12 rax (produce 2 rine)
13 gas
15 oc
17 supply
18 factory
19 reactor(swap rax with factory at end)
make two widow mine
make supply and second gas
make second cc
make other two mine plus one marine, then build tech lab from rax(swap again factory and rax at end)
make two tank and build a second factory when u have money
it's all for now, you have 4 mine and 2 tank at about 7:00-7:15 plus 3 rines
i'm still working on late game, which is the hardest part
anyway my ideal composition it's mine, tank and ghost, if he made air add viking, that's it
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EPT
