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On January 24 2013 04:09 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 03:06 HoLe wrote:
I one based to rank 1 diamond.
And now I can macro like a motherfucker.
Riddle me that, haters. Rank 1 diamond isn't considered high level at all on TL.
There's isn't a level that's considered high. We have heard everything under the sun that's either high or not high.
We've seen people who said:
"GM? you're still shit"
"Not GSL champion? still shit"
In the end? We need to move away from this elitist mindset. Bring in more customers. Bring in new blood, more users, more players, grow the game for god sake. It doesn't matter whether they're bronze or whether they're GM.
People are people. And we need more of them.
1-base play is the foundation of what we all started on back in 2010 when this game first came out. And we still see 1-base play even in the big tournaments. 1-base play is here to stay.
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I think one basing up to gold or low platinum is probably ideal, and then start working on the more complicated stuff. This is speaking as a low diamond player.
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On January 23 2013 23:38 Tenks wrote:
You say there are advantages but there are also a ton of disadvantages:
-Don't learn to make workers throughout the game
-Don't learn to constantly make supply depots
-Don't learn to add on production
-Don't learn to expand and defense expansions
-Don't learn to know when to sacrifice an expansion
-Don't learn to prioritize adding said depots/production/expansions over obsessing over microing a battle
Sure if your only goal is to get that little Masters icon next to your name to get some warm fuzzy feeling then 1base is the way to go. If you want to also know you are looked down upon by the majority of the community and your skills are nothing but a paper tiger then go the approach of learning the game proper.
Good Job tenks, 'nuff said!
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 24 2013 04:42 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 04:09 Targe wrote:On January 24 2013 03:06 HoLe wrote:
I one based to rank 1 diamond.
And now I can macro like a motherfucker.
Riddle me that, haters. Rank 1 diamond isn't considered high level at all on TL. There's isn't a level that's considered high. We have heard everything under the sun that's either high or not high. We've seen people who said: "GM? you're still shit" "Not GSL champion? still shit" In the end? We need to move away from this elitist mindset. Bring in more customers. Bring in new blood, more users, more players, grow the game for god sake. It doesn't matter whether they're bronze or whether they're GM. People are people. And we need more of them. 1-base play is the foundation of what we all started on back in 2010 when this game first came out. And we still see 1-base play even in the big tournaments. 1-base play is here to stay.
The reason I mentioned Rank 1 Diamond not being high is because he was using it to justify his point. I wasn't speaking from an elitist mindset or even criticising 1 base play, I'm simply stating that if you want to prove that 1 base play can take you from diamond to masters then saying you are Rank 1 Diamond is not the way to achieve that.
Also what? we're discussing the effectiveness of 1 base play as a method to achieve a masters rank and/or improve, we're not talking about growing the game. It's frustrating how every conversation to do with SC2 turns to 'grow esports'.
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One thing that i think needs mentioning here is that this is how most people learned Sc2. In the beta and for a little while after the release everything was one base one base one base, especially for terran (zerg would sometimes two base). eventually as pros refined their play they started taking more bases because they could hold all of the cheeses. Most people don't have their play refined to the point where they can hold a well designed all in. Even alot of pros don't, which is why we still see all ins mixed in with tournament play. So, i think that people that stress "macro" (three bases and a bazillion production buildings) are forgetting how the metagame got to this point, they began going 5 rax reaper and have since refined their play to where it is now.
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On January 24 2013 05:14 DBS wrote:
One thing that i think needs mentioning here is that this is how most people learned Sc2. In the beta and for a little while after the release everything was one base one base one base, especially for terran (zerg would sometimes two base). eventually as pros refined their play they started taking more bases because they could hold all of the cheeses. Most people don't have their play refined to the point where they can hold a well designed all in. Even alot of pros don't, which is why we still see all ins mixed in with tournament play. So, i think that people that stress "macro" (three bases and a bazillion production buildings) are forgetting how the metagame got to this point, they began going 5 rax reaper and have since refined their play to where it is now.
Im sure the deluge of balance changes had nothing to do with that. In all honesty T cannot really one base a Z nowadays because 6-8 queens holds everything T can throw at them quite nicely. If queens were as good in beta as they are now we might have seen a similar iron wall style zerg we see nowadays.
I myself think that timing attacks are a good way to learn the game when you are a newer player, but 2 base -> push + third are the best IMO because 2 base into potential macro improves a much broader skillset then a 1 base player with SCV pulls.
Currently Im coaching a gold league real-life friend of mine, and the advice i give in that league is to do a 2 base bio + medivac timing, transitioning into 8 rax marine marauder medivac in all matchups. The purpose is to stress how important macro is at gold league. I analyze his replays and its commonplace to see him up 30+ supply at the 10 minute mark. Obviously this timing is sub-optimal in every non vsP matchup (as well as the followups) but gold league is not optimal league. When you improve to plat diamond and beyond you start using real builds like hellion banshee and real transitions like marine tank or mech.
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If you need a wider variety of one and two bade TvX builds send me a note. I got a plethora of all ins and aggression to Fe builds
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Completely agree with you OP
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I'm working on the diamond stuff tonight, I'm just going to approach one matchup at a time now.
For those that are concerned, in my opinion it is certainly quite viable to 1 base your zerg opponents even at the master level. I will be proving this over the next few days.
Thanks for all the comments and feedback so far! You guys are awesome, even the ones who disagree.
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On January 24 2013 08:12 Scail wrote:
I'm working on the diamond stuff tonight, I'm just going to approach one matchup at a time now.
For those that are concerned, in my opinion it is certainly quite viable to 1 base your zerg opponents even at the master level. I will be proving this over the next few days.
Thanks for all the comments and feedback so far! You guys are awesome, even the ones who disagree.
Yes it's viable, but much stronger off a 1 rax FE. Forces them to scout and you can follow up with a hellion marauder 3 rax all in, with a SCV pull.
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On January 24 2013 08:59 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 08:12 Scail wrote:
I'm working on the diamond stuff tonight, I'm just going to approach one matchup at a time now.
For those that are concerned, in my opinion it is certainly quite viable to 1 base your zerg opponents even at the master level. I will be proving this over the next few days.
Thanks for all the comments and feedback so far! You guys are awesome, even the ones who disagree. Yes it's viable, but much stronger off a 1 rax FE. Forces them to scout and you can follow up with a hellion marauder 3 rax all in, with a SCV pull.
Please post this. I have been looking for a 2 base hellion marauder, everything I have found is only 1 and that is just so easy to scout and react to
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A zerg player is "forced" to scout and respond to any type of aggression.
While working with more than 1 base is something I intend to do after my series, I find it hard to swallow that you can just state outright that a 1 rax FE hellion marauder is allin is automatically superior to anything you can do off of one base. It's out of the scope of my series right now, but since I will be looking at alternative strategies later and sharing them on youtube, do you have any high masters/GM/pro replays or VODs I can reference to back your claims up?
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On January 24 2013 09:24 Scail wrote:
A zerg player is "forced" to scout and respond to any type of aggression.
While working with more than 1 base is something I intend to do after my series, I find it hard to swallow that you can just state outright that a 1 rax FE hellion marauder is allin is automatically superior to anything you can do off of one base. It's out of the scope of my series right now, but since I will be looking at alternative strategies later and sharing them on youtube, do you have any high masters/GM/pro replays or VODs I can reference to back your claims up?
Polt does a 1 rax Fe into 3 rax 1 fac marauder hellion attack all the time. Last time I remember was on whirlwind.
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I support this idea, I started out with very aggressive play in SC2 and eventually I branched out to what people would consider to be "macro" play. When I finally did branch out to macro play, I found that I was able to macro more efficiently than most of the players I was facing because I 1. understood what kinds of production can be supported off of each base, 2. was used to not que-ing units when I macro because it's especially inefficient to do so when executing builds with lower base counts. My aggressive 1 - 2 base play during the beginning of my career allow me to macro better, micro better and multitask better than the opponents I face. As for game knowledge/ game sense and build orders for "standard play" I think that comes much more quickly than mechanics which is what I think this OP is trying to achieve.
This is kind of how MKP improved his StarCraft 2 game. We first saw him opening with two rax every game and when he started losing, he moved on to other all-ins and builds and with enough games played, he's now a complete package.
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On January 24 2013 09:24 Scail wrote:
A zerg player is "forced" to scout and respond to any type of aggression.
While working with more than 1 base is something I intend to do after my series, I find it hard to swallow that you can just state outright that a 1 rax FE hellion marauder is allin is automatically superior to anything you can do off of one base. It's out of the scope of my series right now, but since I will be looking at alternative strategies later and sharing them on youtube, do you have any high masters/GM/pro replays or VODs I can reference to back your claims up?
And think of it logically. What all ins to T have that are 1 base vs Z? Mara hellion. 2 rax, 1-1-2 2 port banshee, random mass marine allin 4/5/6 rax.
Also, what else do 1 base all ins as terran need? Micro. Stutter stepping, hellion shoot and scoot, banshee shoot and scoot. Marine split/whole army split vs banes on creep. Micro isn't always readily abundant in the low levels...and as a 1 base all in hangs on the execution and unit control, I find 1 rax FE more forgivable because of the sheer unit count/size
All of them are scoutable, very easily. I find most players can scout a 1 base play easier, as most low level players 'scout' the gas or 1 base play / lack of FE. Most players, sadly, don't do follow up scouts after seeing a 1 rax FE until an OL poke. People see 1 rax FE, and go onto auto pilot drone mode. There are SO many all ins you can do off 1 rax FE that don't hit much later than their 1 base counterpart, but with 2 OC econ/Mules behind it. Due to players lack of follow up scouting, people get caught with their pants down droning and going for their ever loved fast thirds.
I feel all 1 base TvZ has the same bane...queens and spines.
Yes, they do work. Especially low level where people just auto pilot regardless of what they see. I just find/feel the follow up all ins you can do off 1 rax FE in TvZ have more potential than any 1 base all in...sans 11/11 which is in it's own world.
By no means stop your video series... just voicing an opinion. Carry on, good sir.
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Nice build, but isn't 1 base becoming outdated? Will it improve macro and micro at the same level if you had gone for a macro game instead of just 1 base?
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You're listing off a bunch of builds that are common and often used. For TvZ I will be introducing something a little new that I think works quite well.
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For all the haters...
You guys remember how Flash gained his fame in BW? Nothing but cheese in nearly all his games.
It's a fact - Winning more -> higher self esteem -> better overall games.
OP is not a faggot.
Go OP!
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I am interested in this series as I always enjoy builds that buck the current metagame, however I only see up until platinum videos
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EPT
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