[G] New Terran Bronze to Masters - 1 Base Only - Page 6

Elderbury

United States10 Posts

February 16 2013 00:53 GMT

#101

All the arguments about whether it is better to use an all-in vs. a macro builds are totally missing the point. All that matters, in terms of boosting your MMR, is whether you win or lose. The strategy you used to win or lose is immaterial to the formula. The player who wins most of the time is the better player. By definition.

I would argue that you cannot win most of the time with a single strategy, as you need to be able to adapt to whatever situation you encounter. But whatever strategy wins the game is the best strategy to use. Nothing else matters.

Unless you're not having fun. In which case, the best strategy is the one you enjoy the most, regardless of whether you win.

achan1058

1091 Posts

February 18 2013 03:31 GMT

#102

On February 13 2013 01:16 GGHHGG wrote:

Show nested quote +

In the way that you're exactly the same skill as a player, just with different builds. In the way that as soon as hots was to come out and those builds no longer work, you'd become bronze again and the real master player would still be masters because the builds don't matter.

The 1 base player can just adapt another cheese. In fact, when HotS comes out, cheese would most likely become stronger, not weaker, at least, until the defence of such new builds are perfected. The macro player will most likely drop in rank during this time. I expect the same to happen all the way up to the GSL, to be perfectly honest.

Inimic

Canada153 Posts

March 15 2013 18:20 GMT

#103

To climb the leagues you have to strengthen your mechanics. Even if you play sloppy without a proper build, you can often hold your own in your league with your mechanics.

As for all-ins: I think they're well-formed game models for you to follow with specific benchmarks with clear signs of progress and the chance to see exactly what you did right or wrong each game.

Any replays or masters videos coming up?

NonameAI

127 Posts

March 15 2013 20:32 GMT

#104

Most people would believe Tenks, but OP does actually have a point. Its important to learn basic mechanics/macro/timing before game sense such as the things described. Everyone learns everything when they are pro. This is just a different path to follow. Personally, i got to gold doing 3rax, and switched to zerg to play conventionally with a strong foundation. Just as macro has things cheese can't teach you, its the same way for cheese. A passive player will be missing skills too.

Another thing that really pisses me off is that people hate cheesers. Cheesing is a strategy, just like any other, just faster. No matter how passive you play ur gonna build units and attack eventually. I really don't understand why cheese is recognized as bad, or why cheesers are ostracized for doing something the game allows them to, or even why its become so notorious that it has its own name. Is Hyun a noob/bad person for cheesing in KoTH? AreaKitty? Why have we established out own "rules"? Starcraft is a strategy game. Cheese is a strategy...

Emporium

England162 Posts

March 15 2013 20:50 GMT

#105

I think that greater skill is necessary in the Lategame, and as such people strive to be as good as posisble, and thus test themselves in the lategame, so from what I can see get irritated when they can't do this.

Personally I feel that having both early mid and lategame timings is the way to look at a strategy game. Especially an RTS like this, but, consider this, if you are in Bronze/Silver i suspect alot of people are playing casually,(who will also be the vast majority of the people who complain as its the biggest pool of players) will also want to no be in that league, so will attribute the reason they are, to the fact that it is notorious for being the low league where people cheese.

Missing the fact, that with good scouting and macro when playing against people in bronze and silver, you should embrace the fact that they try and 'cheese' you, as you will win that much faster, and be able to play more games.
Whenever i have played in Bronze, I can play as greedy as i want, as 99percent of the time, the builds will be so inefficient and the timings so late, it won't matter anyway.

Snoodles

401 Posts

March 15 2013 21:25 GMT

#106

People who are against this are kind of the reason foreigners get stomped. A lot of the best korean players in the world, like flash and mkp, got their start by one-base all-inning. I've tried filtersc's method, and it's great but it leaves me with some holes in my play. I still can't scout and hold cheese properly, but if I get 3 rax stimmed, 6-8 pooled, or 4gated and I die I GG because it's a failure on my part, not the other players. If you learn ONLY the filter way, you're kind of left with more money than you can manage towards the end of the game and you rely on your opponent derping around. By practicing some protoss 2-base executions and terran 1-1-1, you get a good feel for exactly how much units you can squeeze out of a few production facilities. It's a whole different game when every 50 minerals or 50 gas counts.

Everlong

Czech Republic1973 Posts

March 15 2013 21:27 GMT

#107

On February 16 2013 09:53 Elderbury wrote:
All the arguments about whether it is better to use an all-in vs. a macro builds are totally missing the point. All that matters, in terms of boosting your MMR, is whether you win or lose. The strategy you used to win or lose is immaterial to the formula. The player who wins most of the time is the better player. By definition.

I would argue that you cannot win most of the time with a single strategy, as you need to be able to adapt to whatever situation you encounter. But whatever strategy wins the game is the best strategy to use. Nothing else matters.

Unless you're not having fun. In which case, the best strategy is the one you enjoy the most, regardless of whether you win.

Ask Puma what he thinks about this...

Tritone

Japan76 Posts

March 16 2013 03:50 GMT

#108

Can anyone recommend some HotS-viable 1 or 2 base all ins/timing attacks for Protoss?

TheLunatic

309 Posts

March 16 2013 05:24 GMT

#109

1 basing is cheesy and boring and win or lose I boo the players that fight this way, every time I see any race hold the one base all in I cheer, and when they lose I still consider them the better player, it's much harder to hold than it is to attack with the one base, the GM player that one bases all the time might as well be bronze in my book, these players are utter crap and make every game they play BORING for there opponent

TheLunatic

309 Posts

March 16 2013 05:25 GMT

#110

On March 16 2013 06:27 Everlong wrote:

Show nested quote +

Ask Puma what he thinks about this...

Thats why puma got booted from eg lol

KingofGods

Canada1218 Posts

March 16 2013 06:06 GMT

#111

Just watched the platinum all in build. A little outdated as you no longer need to research siege mode.

Zrana

United Kingdom698 Posts

March 16 2013 06:13 GMT

#112

The thing about 1base plays like this is that they boost your ladder rating above where it would be playing standard macro.

For someone trying to learn, this is a very good thing! You learn much more from playing people better than you than playing at your own level. Probably the best thing would be alternating 2 weeks or so of cheesing with 2 weeks or so of attempting solid macro play for maximum improvement speed.

TheSwagger

United States92 Posts

March 16 2013 07:54 GMT

#113

People get so tied up on how other people should learn the game, the fact is, playing the game in any intelligent shape or form is going to improve your mechanics and abilities. This includes macro oriented play and aggressive oriented play like the OP is suggesting. I have a firm belief that figuring out a build order that is enjoyable and executable and doing that repeatedly is going to teach you the majority of mechanics in itself just over time. Because of the variable gameplay you'll encounter on the ladder, you'll often find yourself having to adjust or tweak the build to work often, but still follow through, and that is probably one of the best lessons. I believe the second part of that equation is watching the replay and seeing how your opponent reacted to you. Once you have an idea of how to react, and how people react to the things that the see, or you show, or that you let them to believe they see, you have a very legitimate grasp on the game. So whether you're approach is to try and do aggressive/all in gameplay or macro/economic oriented gameplay, eventually you will have to understand both sides of that coin to hang with the best of the best, but being good at one or the other will obviously and indubitably take you to to a higher strata of the game, so cheers!

PrideTV

Vietnam434 Posts

March 16 2013 18:36 GMT

#114

I stream quite often as of late, I will show you the power of 1 base all in.

MrSnugglykins

United States4 Posts

March 18 2013 21:06 GMT

#115

As a new player, I can't say whether or not these methods of learning are effective in terms of really understanding the game, but I can say that limiting focus to a certain area has been very beneficial for me. The first thing I came across that proposed limiting your focus as a player was the staircase which I picked randomly from the forums, but I've tried it from time to time and the idea of just worrying about macro has been helpful for me. As a new and fairly casual player, I still have trouble going into a game and trying to do everything at once. If I know that all I want to do is build marines and SCV's it's much easier for me to remember things like my supply count, building SCV's constantly or finding ways to spend my money.

It seems like a lot of the opposition to this particular method is that a one base is a gimmick, but for me one base is just much easier to manage. I still lose a lot of time when I expand, so if I didn't expand and focused on SCV's until one base was saturated then completely shut my mind to that element of the game, I think it would be a good way for me to introduce other concepts like upgrades without having everything fall apart on me like it tends to when I just go out on my own without any learning method guiding me.

Long story short, I think one base play sounds like a good way to explore certain aspects of the game. The rank that you gain from that kind of play doesn't seem all that important as long as you understand more of the concept that make Starcraft so overwhelmingly complicated for a new player.

Zrifts

2 Posts

March 19 2013 16:04 GMT

#116

I do not like this series at all, but my reasons have nothing to do with the allin nature of it. My first problem is that he has made racist comments multiple times. Even if the quality of his teaching was good, this alone completely takes away any interest I might have had in his series. The big problem in quality really highlights how good Filter's series is. There are no benchmarks, and the OPs goal seems to be have other players exactly copy his builds. Filter encourages an organic approach that is key for new players in my opinion. Set goals and achieve them by trying to meet certain benchmarks. This teaches players much better than build memorization, regardless of whether they are trying to play a macro game or a rush.

I do like the idea of a series on how to allin and the thought process behind those builds. I feel that new players and skilled players need to learn both aspects of the game. Macro is an excellent way to learn the game, and I think it is far better to only learn macro than it would be to only learn rushes, but to be honest, a truly solid player should be able to play both styles. I hope someone can take the idea of this series and do something about it or that the OP can clean it up, since my problem with it is the implementation, not the idea.

xaeravoq

50 Posts

March 19 2013 16:19 GMT

#117

you might get masters by doing this strat but you still dont know how to play the game

govie

9334 Posts

March 20 2013 13:17 GMT

#118

This is interesting

I've posted in this thread that i would test the builds more and give a judgement on it how well they work.

Today i played 5 games in silver league with just 16scv's --> 5rax --> pump marines and attack without scv's. I won all 5 matches and got promoted instantly... Now this ofcourse is a bit wierd as i see it, but it's not a lie.

Apparantly, blizzard awards 1baseplays with more MMR then long term macro? I used to do "the filterSC" mostly, with which i didnt got promoted with to gold. And this to me is wierd because my macro was mostly spot on (50 scv's and 100 supply at ten minutes )...

Wierd, but im not complaining.

2nd question : Could it be that in lower levels APM mostly determince if u get promoted? my apm over the whole game 50 above my average. Ths could explain why 1baseplays gets u promoted sooner?

Allenansgar

United States31 Posts

March 24 2013 15:10 GMT

#119

On March 20 2013 22:17 govie wrote:

Apparantly, blizzard awards 1baseplays with more MMR then long term macro? I used to do "the filterSC" mostly, with which i didnt got promoted with to gold. And this to me is wierd because my macro was mostly spot on (50 scv's and 100 supply at ten minutes )...

Or Blizzard changed the way league percentages work and you got promoted based on the change and the number of wins.

Gratz on being promoted

Allenansgar

United States31 Posts

March 24 2013 15:24 GMT

#120

I think the series has value, I agree with Zrifts observation that his off color comments can be distracting to sensitive people and thus turn people off to his learning style, but that doesn't invalidate what he has done in the series. His later videos don't have that kind of commentary.

What I like about the series is he builds on Filter's series and gives a different perspective on playing the game more agressive. He also puts a little more emphasis on what micro is needed to win battles.

Unfortunatly it appears we have lost him though. He hasn't updated his videos since January, so we will never know his secret of getting to Masters after diamond

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