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[D] SC2 History of TvZ - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Micket
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2163 Posts
December 24 2012 15:04 GMT
#81
What about the Slayers' Blue flame hellion massacre of MLG Anaheim 2011?
Pimpmuckl
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany528 Posts
December 24 2012 16:20 GMT
#82
Love it, thanks!
twitter.com/pimpmuckl
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
December 24 2012 17:06 GMT
#83
On December 23 2012 10:35 kollin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2012 10:28 Azzur wrote:
On December 23 2012 10:25 kollin wrote:
On December 23 2012 10:22 Azzur wrote:
Very nice and detailed writeup but the OP missed the elephant in the room:

The zerg deatball of infestor/broodlord/corrupter. The OP claims that the banshee mechanic build enabled the "As a result of this, the balance at this stage has pretty much found its place". However, this is false - there was no answer to the zerg deathball.

If anyone is in doubt, read Ver's analysis of the patchzergs.

You realise that thread was satirical right?

Its easy to label something as satire if you don't agree with it. I admit the foreigner explanation was a bit far-fetched but everything else, including the invincibleness of the infestor/broodlord/corrupter is 100% true. For those in the dark, Ver is a noted BW strategic authority and the author of the brilliant "How to improve" guide.

No, it was pretty clearly satire. I play Terran and have some pretty strong opinions on late game TvZ but I can still see the manner which he wrote it was making fun of people who use the term 'patch zergs'. Hell, he named the headers after the Star Wars movies.


I also disagree with you.

I found Ver's analysis to be mostly true with some sensational parts added for humor.
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
WestToast
Profile Joined April 2012
18 Posts
December 24 2012 17:53 GMT
#84
On December 25 2012 00:04 Micket wrote:
What about the Slayers' Blue flame hellion massacre of MLG Anaheim 2011?


Patched out immediately after the tournament.
rembrant
Profile Joined July 2012
62 Posts
December 24 2012 19:36 GMT
#85
On December 22 2012 13:51 Escuche wrote:
For some reason, people always credit Stephano for the ling infestor upgrade style. The first person I saw rely on that heavily every game was Destiny, long before Stephano did it, back in 2011. And even before that, Terrans used to upgrade marines while Zerg players ignored upgrades.


Yeah I was thinking this too. It was catz and destiny who really pushed infestor use to the limits and innovated a lot of things like using infested terran bombs to harass. They were really the first ones to show how infestors could be used to fight major battles and harass and defend.
arena_say_what
Profile Joined June 2011
122 Posts
December 24 2012 19:46 GMT
#86
when marine tank medivac isn't viable against zerg why bother playing Terran

User was warned for this post
tns
Profile Joined June 2011
1054 Posts
December 24 2012 20:26 GMT
#87
On December 22 2012 12:28 Chronos. wrote:
Thanks for the writeup, it's really cool. I think a useful thing if you have the time would be to link 1 standard game from each of these periods, or a game where this tactic was first employed for example. I love TvZ so much, it's so dynamic and has shifted so much since launch. Can't wait to see how the matchup will unfold when HotS is released!!!

By the way, you might have to put in another entry to this histroy soon:

12. Stephano's New Metagame Part 2. Roach Hydra

Hahaha x)
but... NesTea said : "I would remove Hydralisks from WoL"
firebathero miss u♥! http://youtu.be/AXkoG9GnpcM - 1998/11/30 to 2001/05/18 BW stabilized! - WoL v.alpha HotS v.beta LotD v.gamma... summer 2017 SC3 (sc1remastered)
dala
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden477 Posts
December 24 2012 21:06 GMT
#88
One of the best threads that I've ever read on TL. Thank's a lot!
Yokwe
Profile Joined December 2012
United States35 Posts
December 24 2012 22:32 GMT
#89
I think you should have mentioned before the queen/overlord patch TvZ was at a 52~% win rate in terrans favor, lots of people considered it the most balanced non-mirror match up and I considered it the most fun to watch. The overlord patch was a good idea I think but I don't know why blizzard thought range upgrade for queens was a good idea, practically making every game no rush 15 while both players get 3 bases and zerg slowly kills you with bl/infestor.
"Pudding...wait for it....pops." - Bill Cosby
RaXCitY
Profile Joined June 2012
United States37 Posts
December 24 2012 23:46 GMT
#90
These reads are proving that Terrans as a whole are more intellectual and responsive as players and people. I do not see one counter thread made by a zerg that is well organized saying, if infestors get nerfed we will be screwed, or this is why we NEED fungal to have poison stun and be so cost effective agiasnt its mirror spell, the Hunter seeker missle.
Terran NO-p
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
December 24 2012 23:49 GMT
#91
On December 25 2012 08:46 RaXCitY wrote:
These reads are proving that Terrans as a whole are more intellectual and responsive as players and people. I do not see one counter thread made by a zerg that is well organized saying, if infestors get nerfed we will be screwed, or this is why we NEED fungal to have poison stun and be so cost effective agiasnt its mirror spell, the Hunter seeker missle.

Are you actually saying that, based on the evolution of the metagame, Terran players are more intelligent. I play Terran and even I think that is fucking stupid.
KT(Rolster)HaunteR
Profile Joined September 2012
Korea (South)22 Posts
December 24 2012 23:51 GMT
#92
On December 22 2012 11:09 LgNKami wrote:
Im mad that in #9, ForGG got no type of credit for his Hellion Banshee build that everyone stole.


That's quite true Karmi. ForGG created that build overall when he came on the scene.

He went through Code A with 0 games lost.
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
December 24 2012 23:53 GMT
#93
On December 25 2012 08:51 KT(Rolster)HaunteR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2012 11:09 LgNKami wrote:
Im mad that in #9, ForGG got no type of credit for his Hellion Banshee build that everyone stole.


That's quite true Karmi. ForGG created that build overall when he came on the scene.

He went through Code A with 0 games lost.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to insinuate with this post :/
LlamaNamedOsama
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1900 Posts
December 24 2012 23:54 GMT
#94
On December 25 2012 08:53 kollin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2012 08:51 KT(Rolster)HaunteR wrote:
On December 22 2012 11:09 LgNKami wrote:
Im mad that in #9, ForGG got no type of credit for his Hellion Banshee build that everyone stole.


That's quite true Karmi. ForGG created that build overall when he came on the scene.

He went through Code A with 0 games lost.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to insinuate with this post :/


I think you misread the post as saying he won 0 games? It's saying forgg lost 0 games in his code A run, so he was a good Terran/worthy of recognition in the TvZ strategy list history.
Dario Wünsch: I guess...Creator...met his maker *sunglasses*
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
December 24 2012 23:56 GMT
#95
On December 25 2012 08:54 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2012 08:53 kollin wrote:
On December 25 2012 08:51 KT(Rolster)HaunteR wrote:
On December 22 2012 11:09 LgNKami wrote:
Im mad that in #9, ForGG got no type of credit for his Hellion Banshee build that everyone stole.


That's quite true Karmi. ForGG created that build overall when he came on the scene.

He went through Code A with 0 games lost.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to insinuate with this post :/


I think you misread the post as saying he won 0 games? It's saying forgg lost 0 games in his code A run, so he was a good Terran/worthy of recognition in the TvZ strategy list history.

No I didn't misread it, I just didn't know he didn't lose any games so I thought it was randomly bashing ForGG. Sorry for my mistake.
RaXCitY
Profile Joined June 2012
United States37 Posts
December 24 2012 23:57 GMT
#96
I am saying counter arguments don't even exist for zergs meta game style currently and every answer before was a NERF on Terran buff on zerg. As a result Terran becomes the road less traveled, and those who play terran are picking to play easy normal HARD off the bat . Its not meta game evolution as you call it, because evolving means you get better, it's a meta game roller coaster of bad design.
Terran NO-p
MogA
Profile Joined February 2012
Switzerland43 Posts
December 25 2012 00:07 GMT
#97
Very nice write-up. I could see Stephanos new roach-hydra build become part of this history anytime soon. It's really interesting to see how the metagame changes.
Sandermatt
Profile Joined December 2010
Switzerland1365 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-25 00:24:04
December 25 2012 00:23 GMT
#98
On December 25 2012 04:36 rembrant wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2012 13:51 Escuche wrote:
For some reason, people always credit Stephano for the ling infestor upgrade style. The first person I saw rely on that heavily every game was Destiny, long before Stephano did it, back in 2011. And even before that, Terrans used to upgrade marines while Zerg players ignored upgrades.


Yeah I was thinking this too. It was catz and destiny who really pushed infestor use to the limits and innovated a lot of things like using infested terran bombs to harass. They were really the first ones to show how infestors could be used to fight major battles and harass and defend.


Well, I learned about ling infestor through bitters 12 weeks with the pros. Which was even before the infestor buff. I think he was tought it by lzgamer who said it is a strifecro build.
I still remember how all the terrans on the ladder were like "How can this work???" when I used mrBitters build.
Oboeman
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3980 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-25 00:32:58
December 25 2012 00:31 GMT
#99
I feel like roach/ling and roach/baneling busts deserve some kind of mention, but I don't know who you'd credit, or when exactly it was. It was before queen buff. The refined build for roach+baneling may have been shown first by DRG or Leenock, but the idea behind it was a bit older.

sometime after 1 marine + 4 hellions + 3OC + double ebay started becoming normal, zergs would mix in roach all-ins to try to keep terrans honest. I have no idea what you're building behind those 4 hellions, if you are cutting corners every game you'll lose if I happen to choose to all-in you.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 25 2012 00:52 GMT
#100
On December 25 2012 09:31 Oboeman wrote:
I feel like roach/ling and roach/baneling busts deserve some kind of mention, but I don't know who you'd credit, or when exactly it was. It was before queen buff. The refined build for roach+baneling may have been shown first by DRG or Leenock, but the idea behind it was a bit older.

sometime after 1 marine + 4 hellions + 3OC + double ebay started becoming normal, zergs would mix in roach all-ins to try to keep terrans honest. I have no idea what you're building behind those 4 hellions, if you are cutting corners every game you'll lose if I happen to choose to all-in you.


Roach+ling busts date back to the days when zergs started to use this former ZvZ build against Protoss' 3gate expands. At those times the first ZvT roach+ling busts were experimented with as well.

But yeah, I'd say DRG is the first highly successful player that was doing roach based early game busts in TvZ. (MLG Winter(?) finals vs MKP from early 2012 comes to mind, where he did like 3 roach/bling busts)
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