|
On December 22 2012 11:43 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 11:09 LgNKami wrote:
Im mad that in #9, ForGG got no type of credit for his Hellion Banshee build that everyone stole. forGG was the first iirc, but all oGs Terrans(forgg, Supernova and thestc) used it a lot before anyone else did. Also, it might be nice idea if we write one for every MU. PvZ one here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#5.2
the first time i saw this was originally supernova but he wasn't doing this as much, forgg was the person who popularized it imo. i just remember watching his original hellion banshee game vs leenock on daybreak and thinking the whole time how refined his build was, and how safe it was from mostly everything. even though he lost that game, i'll never forget my jaw dropping one inch for every scv, marine and 2nd depot that was skipped while forgg took ref 1, 2 after his CC. what seems so trivial now was just so amazing back then.
|
I think you forgot the "Slayers terran helion" where they would mass blue flame and just pwn face, forcing blue flame helions to get nerfed. Also, Destiny (although no one likes to admit it for some reason) started ling infestor into ultras long before stephano did and defeated players like bombers in show matches. This was when Infestors did 36 damage and 48 btw (the super Winfestor). Stephano only got credited because he did it better =)
|
On December 22 2012 19:21 phodacbiet wrote:
I think you forgot the "Slayers terran helion" where they would mass blue flame and just pwn face, forcing blue flame helions to get nerfed. Also, Destiny (although no one likes to admit it for some reason) started ling infestor into ultras long before stephano did and defeated players like bombers in show matches. This was when Infestors did 36 damage and 48 btw (the super Winfestor). Stephano only got credited because he did it better =)
Hm no Destiny only massed infestors, remember he kept claiming you "only make ultralisks if you want to lose". He also didn't go for the ungodly early double evos. A lot of people said it was not possible to go pure ling for so long AND take double upgrades so early on. Destiny stayed on two base for a long time and made a lot of infestors,
Stephano expanded earlier and made much more lings and fast upgrades and tech, ultimately going into fast ultralisks. Stephano's build was also a lot safer and versatile than Destiny's.
|
On December 22 2012 19:21 phodacbiet wrote:
I think you forgot the "Slayers terran helion" where they would mass blue flame and just pwn face, forcing blue flame helions to get nerfed. Also, Destiny (although no one likes to admit it for some reason) started ling infestor into ultras long before stephano did and defeated players like bombers in show matches. This was when Infestors did 36 damage and 48 btw (the super Winfestor). Stephano only got credited because he did it better =)
Well that's not true. it wasn't just ling infestor stephano did. It was very fast upgrade that made his lings be able to beat marines and tanks. One of his favourite build at the time where he started to popularize his new meta game was his" ling only style" A style that made Terrans in EU question the state of balance of lings. Kas was especially very outspoken about this hehe. You are right about one thing other zergs did make lings and infestors before Stephano did but not in the way he did it with his gas timings and fast upgrades followed by a macro hatch and a fast 3rd to get more larva for lings and then tech to ultralisk and it completely revolutionized the current metagame
|
Great write up, brought a little tear to my eye remembering all that tvz once was.
The glory of the epic marine splits, baneling flanks, muta harass, drop / runby aggression and defense...
God.
Some series/games you may want to use as reference material/case exhibits:
Golden age: MMA vs DRG blizzard cup, Leenock vs jjakji GSL finals
Ghost era: MVP vs NESTEA, blizzcon finals. MVP vs xigua WCG
Terran's (almost) only hope in an age of Zerg domination: Polt vs Stephano, lone star clash 1, assembly winter, MLG - a period that gave birth to one of the most stories rivalries in star2's (short) history.
The short lived period of "holy crap Terran's winning with a composition that should never work): MKP VS DRG from the MLG arenas they met each other in. Byun's tvz marauder banshee hellion compositions in the mid game. Polts CC first marauder hellion.
God, this truly is an amazing matchup. The advent of infestor-turtle-hive has ushered in an era of hopelessness for Terrans in general, but history is cause for hope, huh? 
|
A lot of mistakes (from what I remember):
1.)
-) roaches were 3range (not 2)
-) Fruitdealer won because he was a heavy gambler, mixing allins with 60drone builds. This basically had nothing to do with "marine control". He was just simply one step ahead, metagaming opponents instead of going for "blind builds".
2.), 3.)
-) didn't MKP use 1rax FE quite heavily? And if not MKP, I think Boxer and Nada were probably way more influencial than Mvp for using FE builds; as far as I remember, Mvp was "just" the best T player at that time. Especially in TvT.
-) Maka (MakaRax) needs to be mentioned somewhere here; These builds had quite a huge impact on how T was being played
4.) This was due to the way how BroodWar was played. Zergs were pressured to have one more expansion than the Terran, but this often led them to crumble before taking the wanted 6 gases. This was when Nestea showed a new way to play. Rather than prematurely going for another expansion, he prepared himself to defend Terran's push
Every Zerg was doing that. I can't remember any good Z players that went 3base at that time. Kyrix was famous for 2basing, July was famous 2basing.
There was really noone who played fast 3bases at all. Nestea was "just" better at not getting faked out, better at droning, better at spreading creep. He developed a lot of great defensive mechanisms (pushing creep with a spine crawler) and - similarily to Fruitdealer - was quite good at metagaming his opponents with a variety of banling busts and heavy droning.
7.) This timing push was like the oldest build ever, when Mvp played it. 50% of all TvZs on the ladder in Masters league was the 3Tank push, from early to late 2011. Everybody was doing it and Mvp was one of the first players to stop doing it. But he always mixed some forms of it into his play.
Ghosts were being used before that. Everybody had started using them at that time. Demuslim made a comment along the lines of "I didn't know how to handle Zerg lategame. Greg told me to stop building Vikings and build ghosts instead. They are amazing." I think Thorzain was well known for them as well. Select ditto. Basically everybody minus MMA was going for Ghosts in TvZ at that point.
Mvp didn't get Ghosts nerfed. Ghosts were nerfed because Terrans found ways to mass them and in the old form they countered every Zerg unit, once massed.
8.) David Kim claimed to balance ZvP by buffing queen range and overlord movement speed. However, this patch gave much greater of an impact to TvZ. With the new queen buff, early hellions were easily fended off by queens
Simply no. The queen patch was made, because of hellions. The official comments were something like "hellions can contain Zerg too easily for two long".
10.), 11.) 2base Mutas have always been around and have never hindered Terran from going Mech.
|
You may need to add roach hydra zvt really soon lol 
|
On December 22 2012 15:20 Cyro wrote:
Looking back, that DRG vs MMA bo7 was probably the peak of ZvT and arguably WOL as a whole
only because MMA was kind enough not to build ghosts lol
|
On December 23 2012 00:29 Clazziquai10 wrote:You may need to add roach hydra zvt really soon lol
That's only effective because MKP messed up repeatedly against it.
|
On December 23 2012 00:35 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 00:29 Clazziquai10 wrote:You may need to add roach hydra zvt really soon lol That's only effective because MKP messed up repeatedly against it.
Maybe MKP messed up quite a bit. But Stephano beat Ganzi and MMA quite convincingly with it as well, and MMA especially seemed to be playing quite well against it.
WoL may not have enough time left for such a huge metagame shift, but when HotS comes out with hydra speed buff, it could happen.
|
On December 23 2012 00:35 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 00:29 Clazziquai10 wrote:You may need to add roach hydra zvt really soon lol That's only effective because MKP messed up repeatedly against it.
MMA Ganzi?
I remember people said the same thing when Stephano introduced his upgrades lings infestors. I recall Idra calling it gimmick style and no one will remember him in 6months hehe
|
United States4883 Posts
On December 22 2012 13:38 danl9rm wrote:
Wow, nice. There are probably even more "steps" in there, maybe not worth mentioning. I'm thinking... SlayerS' 8 blue flame hellion drop. Doesn't work? Do it again.
I guess you could get caught up with doing every iteration. You definitely hit the highlights. Great job.
Yeah, I was thinking about this. Although the write-up includes some mention of hellions and such, I just want to point everyone to MLG Raleigh 2011 where Mvp totally turned the matchup on its head with his blue flame hellion build in TvZ. After this, yes, was the SlayerS hellion dominance.
Also might mention the IEM where Mvp basically made mech viable against zerg; mech is increasingly becoming the standard in TvZ, it feels like.
|
United States4883 Posts
On December 23 2012 00:41 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 00:35 kollin wrote:On December 23 2012 00:29 Clazziquai10 wrote:You may need to add roach hydra zvt really soon lol That's only effective because MKP messed up repeatedly against it. MMA Ganzi? I remember people said the same thing when Stephano introduced his upgrades lings infestors. I recall Idra calling it gimmick style and no one will remember him in 6months hehe
I totally believed this too. I was of the definite opinion that once everyone figured out his timings and the way he played, they'd be fine against it and he'd fade into obscurity. When we remember him smashing faces at Red Bull LAN with his continual roach/ling maxout, it didn't matter that all the protosses knew the timing of his 3rd base, roach warren, evo chamber, lair, and roach pressure. They still all died. I finally accepted the fact that Stephano was actually a really good player with just really solid strategy and logic.
Same in ZvT.
|
Really nice article. Pretty truthful. Boy I remember the early days..... -_________-
|
hehehe I believed in infestor/ling ^^. Though even I underestimated that it'd overtake muta/ling/bane as the dominant Zerg comp.....I also sadly underestimated how it would contribute to making the game far less entertaining. It was cool when it first came out though :/
Overall, I think you hit most of the notable eras, except two.
1) The Slayers BF Hellion surge at MLG Anaheim in 2011. Namely, the dreaded elevator push that killed numerous Zergs.
2) General trends in Zerg play following MVP's 3rd title win and GomTvT of October-end of 2011. I distinctly remember Zergs across the board improving their creep spread (SEAL!), experimenting with wall-ins to combat hellions, and some opening with multiple queens to beat the elevator push (Nestea vs MMA on Terminus immediately comes to mind).
|
On December 22 2012 15:20 Cyro wrote:
Looking back, that DRG vs MMA bo7 was probably the peak of ZvT and arguably WOL as a whole
MMA almost didn't rely on ghosts even before the snipe nerf. This made his TvZ so exciting to see (the massive dropage helped it a lot too). TvZ was good before late game before ghosts come out e pewpew anything.
TBH, the peak of quality of WoL, IMO, is the 2012 TvT. Mech vs Mech, Biotank vs Mech, Bio vs Mech, Marinetank vs Marinetank. All of these styles are really awesome.
Some awesome series:
GSL:
MMA vs Gumiho
Bomber vs Gumiho
MLG:
Ryung vs Puma
StarWars7 Korean Qualify Finals (This one is actually probably the best TvT series of all time and almost no one knows it):
MMA vs MKP
The problem is with Zerg dominating we almost never see a TvT =/.
Other thing that people aren't seeing is that TvP is becoming really Terran favored these days. Guys like Bomber just aren't losing to Toss anymore. The "new" heavy drop style is really strong. But this is happening with just some players and with so few terran out the no one is really seeing.
|
People are talking about Destiny using infestors, but I'm pretty sure Dimaga did that before him in the World Allstars match versus MVP. Either way, I think this current history focuses too much on players and not on general strategies and trends (compared to, for example, the PvZ history linked in the first page, which only uses players as examples). Doing so skips over a lot of general strategies that are hard to attribute to singular players, and distracts people with debates over who did what first/popularized what versus the actual strategies that are used.
|
France12791 Posts
On December 22 2012 13:51 Escuche wrote:
For some reason, people always credit Stephano for the ling infestor upgrade style. The first person I saw rely on that heavily every game was Destiny, long before Stephano did it, back in 2011. And even before that, Terrans used to upgrade marines while Zerg players ignored upgrades.
Not only Destiny but also Nerchio and every EU zerg.
However Stephano was the first to use it at very high level, revealing its strength to the koreans who used it after Stephano defeated korean terrans in IPL and ESWC!
Yeah the SlayerS hellion is kinda missing, LucifroN came back to sc2 and destroyed Stephano and Nerchio with similar blue flame drop builds!
If there is one for TvP, PuMa popularized the 1-1-1 in inter but I believe Polt and MKP were the first to use it (MKP vs MC GSL WC for example) in korea.
Good write-up overall ty for this.
|
France12791 Posts
On December 23 2012 00:35 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 00:29 Clazziquai10 wrote:You may need to add roach hydra zvt really soon lol That's only effective because MKP messed up repeatedly against it.
No with the queen buff creep spread and big maps it's a viable to enter lategame, with some transition.
Stephano is starting to use it and remember what people used to say about ultralisks lol? It will be the same for that.
|
This seems to log the evolution of TvZ. Terrans have been relatively paralyzed since Stephano's shift in the metagame.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
