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On December 23 2012 05:38 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 00:35 kollin wrote:On December 23 2012 00:29 Clazziquai10 wrote:You may need to add roach hydra zvt really soon lol  That's only effective because MKP messed up repeatedly against it. No with the queen buff creep spread and big maps it's a viable to enter lategame, with some transition. Stephano is starting to use it and remember what people used to say about ultralisks lol? It will be the same for that.
For the longest time, Zerg players said that Ultralisks were a terrible, god-awful unit. Now as we know, they are one of the best late game units out there and with fungal, they become even stronger. It's amazing that so many Zerg players bought into the dogma for so long, instead of trying them for themselves.
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On December 22 2012 19:21 phodacbiet wrote:
I think you forgot the "Slayers terran helion" where they would mass blue flame and just pwn face, forcing blue flame helions to get nerfed. Also, Destiny (although no one likes to admit it for some reason) started ling infestor into ultras long before stephano did and defeated players like bombers in show matches. This was when Infestors did 36 damage and 48 btw (the super Winfestor). Stephano only got credited because he did it better =)
That's wrong I think. Destiny's builds had not much in common with Stephano's.
I heard that Dimaga did it before him though.
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France13011 Posts
On December 23 2012 05:44 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 19:21 phodacbiet wrote:
I think you forgot the "Slayers terran helion" where they would mass blue flame and just pwn face, forcing blue flame helions to get nerfed. Also, Destiny (although no one likes to admit it for some reason) started ling infestor into ultras long before stephano did and defeated players like bombers in show matches. This was when Infestors did 36 damage and 48 btw (the super Winfestor). Stephano only got credited because he did it better =) That's wrong I think. Destiny's builds had not much in common with Stephano's. I heard that Dimaga did it before him though.
Stephano first success in the EU scene was way before the infestor buff, using infestor+broodlord to beat the much more famous at the time Strelok on jungle bassin, Day9 made a vid about it I believe. It was in a go4sc2 semi-final.
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nice to see the metagame shift around so much and almost come full circle
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On December 22 2012 10:47 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Nice writeup, although you left out a part of the Slayers hellion period, where the Slayers team dominated the matchup with their hellion drop strategies (around the first MLG that started inviting koreans, I believe Columbus?). This, in combination with their insane amount of scv kills with hellions in TvT, led to the hellion nerf.
Also, forgg should get credit for the hellion-banshee opening as the new method of trying to harass when hellions alone were not enough with the post-queen buff. It was MLG Anaheim.
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Great writeup, well made. I would 5/5 if this were a blog. Makes me a bit nostalgic.
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United Kingdom20342 Posts
Ghosts were being used before that.
It was the first time large numbers of ghosts were seen in a high level game completely shutting down hive tech IIRC
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Very nice and detailed writeup but the OP missed the elephant in the room:
The zerg deatball of infestor/broodlord/corrupter. The OP claims that the banshee mechanic build enabled the "As a result of this, the balance at this stage has pretty much found its place". However, this is false - there was no answer to the zerg deathball.
If anyone is in doubt, read Ver's analysis of the patchzergs.
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On December 23 2012 10:22 Azzur wrote:
Very nice and detailed writeup but the OP missed the elephant in the room:
The zerg deatball of infestor/broodlord/corrupter. The OP claims that the banshee mechanic build enabled the "As a result of this, the balance at this stage has pretty much found its place". However, this is false - there was no answer to the zerg deathball.
If anyone is in doubt, read Ver's analysis of the patchzergs.
You realise that thread was satirical right?
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DRG vs. MMA the glory days <3
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On December 23 2012 10:25 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 10:22 Azzur wrote:
Very nice and detailed writeup but the OP missed the elephant in the room:
The zerg deatball of infestor/broodlord/corrupter. The OP claims that the banshee mechanic build enabled the "As a result of this, the balance at this stage has pretty much found its place". However, this is false - there was no answer to the zerg deathball.
If anyone is in doubt, read Ver's analysis of the patchzergs. You realise that thread was satirical right?
Its easy to label something as satire if you don't agree with it. I admit the foreigner explanation was a bit far-fetched but everything else, including the invincibleness of the infestor/broodlord/corrupter is 100% true. For those in the dark, Ver is a noted BW strategic authority and the author of the brilliant "How to improve" guide.
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On December 23 2012 10:28 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 10:25 kollin wrote:On December 23 2012 10:22 Azzur wrote:
Very nice and detailed writeup but the OP missed the elephant in the room:
The zerg deatball of infestor/broodlord/corrupter. The OP claims that the banshee mechanic build enabled the "As a result of this, the balance at this stage has pretty much found its place". However, this is false - there was no answer to the zerg deathball.
If anyone is in doubt, read Ver's analysis of the patchzergs. You realise that thread was satirical right? Its easy to label something as satire if you don't agree with it. I admit the foreigner explanation was a bit far-fetched but everything else, including the invincibleness of the infestor/broodlord/corrupter is 100% true. For those in the dark, Ver is a noted BW strategic authority and the author of the brilliant "How to improve" guide.
No, it was pretty clearly satire. I play Terran and have some pretty strong opinions on late game TvZ but I can still see the manner which he wrote it was making fun of people who use the term 'patch zergs'. Hell, he named the headers after the Star Wars movies.
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On December 23 2012 05:44 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 19:21 phodacbiet wrote:
I think you forgot the "Slayers terran helion" where they would mass blue flame and just pwn face, forcing blue flame helions to get nerfed. Also, Destiny (although no one likes to admit it for some reason) started ling infestor into ultras long before stephano did and defeated players like bombers in show matches. This was when Infestors did 36 damage and 48 btw (the super Winfestor). Stephano only got credited because he did it better =) That's wrong I think. Destiny's builds had not much in common with Stephano's. I heard that Dimaga did it before him though.
Destiny definitely led the popularization of infestors.
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Really well written, need another writes like this! Good to recall those games, especially MMA vs DRG!
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On December 23 2012 05:41 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 05:38 Poopi wrote:On December 23 2012 00:35 kollin wrote:On December 23 2012 00:29 Clazziquai10 wrote:You may need to add roach hydra zvt really soon lol That's only effective because MKP messed up repeatedly against it. No with the queen buff creep spread and big maps it's a viable to enter lategame, with some transition. Stephano is starting to use it and remember what people used to say about ultralisks lol? It will be the same for that. For the longest time, Zerg players said that Ultralisks were a terrible, god-awful unit. Now as we know, they are one of the best late game units out there and with fungal, they become even stronger. It's amazing that so many Zerg players bought into the dogma for so long, instead of trying them for themselves.
ultra don't work in all maps, it needs a huge open space and don't do too well breaking defensive terrans because of the pathing issue.
They suck against PF defensive terran, and definitly is a unit to lose the game at pre hellion and ghost nerf era.
The reason is that ultras require all the melee and armor upgrade to be effective, but hellion opening makes it incredibly risky to take a quick third and so you are always forced to play 2 base vs 2 base unless you get roach out)
Ultras will not really get the upgrades early enough to be effective.
And as for who popularised infestors:
Dimaga used it fairly often even before infestor buff
Then Spanishwa invented the IceFisher style which is only the opening, but his game focused on getting upgrades and infestors fast usually in mid game.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 23 2012 09:08 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 10:47 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Nice writeup, although you left out a part of the Slayers hellion period, where the Slayers team dominated the matchup with their hellion drop strategies (around the first MLG that started inviting koreans, I believe Columbus?). This, in combination with their insane amount of scv kills with hellions in TvT, led to the hellion nerf.
Also, forgg should get credit for the hellion-banshee opening as the new method of trying to harass when hellions alone were not enough with the post-queen buff. It was MLG Anaheim.
Negative. It was MLG Raleigh where Mvp was the champion. Anaheim was Leenock v Naniwa, and most of that event was based around the evolution of PvZ. Mvp unveiled the build that became standard in TvZ for a long time, which was BFH into expansion. Then of course, came the BFH hellion nerf, so reactor hellions became the thing, then players starting expanding BEFORE reactor hellions, etc....
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On December 22 2012 11:43 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 11:09 LgNKami wrote:
Im mad that in #9, ForGG got no type of credit for his Hellion Banshee build that everyone stole. forGG was the first iirc, but all oGs Terrans(forgg, Supernova and thestc) used it a lot before anyone else did. Also, it might be nice idea if we write one for every MU. PvZ one here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#5.2
And even if he was the first to show it in a GSL game, you can't say that everyone "stole" it, as it must have been used on ladder before. And if not, Gumiho has been doing similar builds (as well as many players, even ones that aren't pros) where you open hellion banshee (expand before or after hellions), and getting to 3 base or 3 fact before taking third. I remember Gumiho using a hellion banshee into fast third build (i know, different from what forgg usually does which is take 3 fact before his third) against Nestea in 2011 WCG qualifiers on TDA), and other terrans including MMA doing that after gumiho started showing it in GSL/WCG games with some slight variations. I also remember Gumiho doing a 3 fact build before taking his third vs his Code A series against Curious.
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Not bad but you should talk about the 2 base 3 tank push that was standard until stephano came in. Also the 2base marine bfh push. See Sen vs Marineking in the GSL world championship.
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I'm sure we could argue who "invented" infestor/ling all day. Personally, I learned about it from a strat post MrBitter made here in Feb 2011 and was using it pretty much through the summer until I got frustrated playing against mass drops. Then I saw how Stephano was handling it and went back to it. But I also remember Leenock doing it a couple times and I think another Korean Zerg who I cannot recall atm. Tbh, I remember Destiny way more for his infestor timing attacks in ZvP rather than ZvT, though he obviously deserves credit for popularizing the infestor in general. I don't think we can ever really say who "did it first", but I think that Stephano's IPL3 win was the main catalyst behind the shift to infestor-based play, so it's fair that he gets the lion's share of the credit IMO.
I think Spanishiwa's gasless opening deserves some mention as well. I think it was generally the most useful in ZvT, and I think it's also the first time gasless openings were really explored.
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I enjoyed reading this. I wonder where we are going? the day9 daily on bombers tvz SEEMS to have started a little shift on the ladder, at least where I play.
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EPT
