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JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
August 24 2012 15:01 GMT
#61
On August 24 2012 23:47 sCCrooked wrote:
Never really seen a move-out of the probe this early to do this. I guess we all have to 9 drone-scout the ramps if we want to prevent this. I really wish Blizzard would get their heads out of their asses and take the same map-balancing steps the professional organizations have to ensure decent games.

I don't think 9 drone-scouting the ramp (as people are now finally suggesting, it seems so obvious now) on 2 player maps is all that ridiculous. Definitely something to start doing now. It won't be an 80 mineral loss as patrolling a drone there forever would be, you only need to check the ramp once at the proper time, and lose maybe 5-10 minerals.
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
August 24 2012 15:04 GMT
#62
On August 24 2012 23:57 CravinR1 wrote:
Blizzard needs to require a overlord before pool, same as pylon before gate or depot before rax

Zerg can make one tech building and max out on that unit. You guys have infestors, mutas, roaches


basically stfu


I'd be fine with that change considering we get an overlord at the start of the game. You're just flaming zerg because you're probably having a hard time against them, and not adding anything to the discussion.
Fairwell
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria195 Posts
August 24 2012 15:17 GMT
#63
On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote:
It would make no sense if Zerg had to drone scout on 9 every game simply because of a ramp block.


Protoss also has to 9 pylon scout in every pvz to be safe vs 6pool (and even send out a 2nd probe on maps like tal darim the moment they plant their forge down at 13 supply in case their first probe would find their opponent at the last spot ...). Grubby for instance is always even starting a pylon at 15 supply in his main and cancels it once his probe reaches the zerg's base, otherwise the canon would be quite delayed.

There are lot of things like these in the game and every matchup puts other restrictions on the player. If something is not only strong or legitime but rather abusive (i.e. way too strong) then blizzard will and should address it for obvious reasons. For a similar thing (2 pylon block) they introduced neutral supply depots (which have been a standard for a long time already in tournament maps). They seemed to be fine with the possibility with a 3 pylon block though since ladder maps offer this possibility. Blizzard wants cheese to be in the game, but it should never be too strong.

Basically it's a 3 pylon block with a canon behind, just that the forge is not at home and is used for the block. There is a huge difference here though: This version comes way faster. If this means that it's way too strong or that zergs need to 9 drone scout like protoss does the probe scout in pvz (or even just check around your ramp like protoss often checks his base for proxy gates/canon rush in pvp and then returns back to mining) or alternatively sends the first overlord (not the 2nd like in the replay provided) to the natural and then to the opponent's base (after the overlord speed buff it should still be there in time) is something that only Blizzard can decide. Like someone else noted above already, I also do believe that, if you scout it too late, probably the best followup is to get a quick gas + baneling nest or alternatively roaches and bust the pylon. Not a great position to be in but better than all those other 1 base plays which take way longer.

I personally would be pissed as well if someone did this to me on the ladder since I hardly ever cheese and hate it to get cheesed. But it's still a part of the game.
Catatafish
Profile Joined April 2012
75 Posts
August 24 2012 15:30 GMT
#64
On August 25 2012 00:17 Fairwell wrote:
I personally would be pissed as well if someone did this to me on the ladder since I hardly ever cheese and hate it to get cheesed. But it's still a part of the game.


But it's a part of the game that every single major tournament has recognized is harmful to the game and shouldn't be allowed.
Seinken
Profile Joined March 2011
United States40 Posts
August 24 2012 15:34 GMT
#65
Watched the replay, only thing I can think of is if the original OL scout is really worth it in a 2 player map? Understanding cloud kingdom is 2 player, as well as a ramp lacking a depot, you'd have been better off simply placing your first OL in the nat and sending your second one to that silly pillar outside HIS nat to confirm expo or 1base pressure.

If you had seen the pylon with the first OL the build would certainly not have been as effective.
evilyoshi123
Profile Joined August 2012
3 Posts
August 24 2012 15:37 GMT
#66
so in order for this to work, basically protoss has to put down a 10 pylon followed by a 10 forge. in terms of timing, if you rally out your 10th drone to the ramp just to take a peek, you should be able to catch a 10 pylon still mid-warp-in and respond accordingly (since getting this scouted is essentially an autoloss for protoss as long as you prevent the forge block).

mind you i'm not suggesting you patrol your drone there, you're simply checking your ramp at the relevant time and and then sending the drone back to mine if there's no pylon. i feel like this shouldn't set you back too far (like ~10 minerals maybe, if that?) obviously not having the neutral supply depot is totally stupid (this is coming from a protoss player, too), but until blizzard changes it maybe you can do this small adjustment?
kiklion
Profile Joined April 2011
99 Posts
August 24 2012 16:12 GMT
#67
On August 25 2012 00:37 evilyoshi123 wrote:
so in order for this to work, basically protoss has to put down a 10 pylon followed by a 10 forge. in terms of timing, if you rally out your 10th drone to the ramp just to take a peek, you should be able to catch a 10 pylon still mid-warp-in and respond accordingly (since getting this scouted is essentially an autoloss for protoss as long as you prevent the forge block).

mind you i'm not suggesting you patrol your drone there, you're simply checking your ramp at the relevant time and and then sending the drone back to mine if there's no pylon. i feel like this shouldn't set you back too far (like ~10 minerals maybe, if that?) obviously not having the neutral supply depot is totally stupid (this is coming from a protoss player, too), but until blizzard changes it maybe you can do this small adjustment?


I don't see how it is an auto lose for toss. Zerg isn't going to be able to kill the pylon any time soon, so you still have the supply from it so you can keep.. uh do toss call it 'probing up'? sounds wrong.. anyway Zerg now needs to keep a drone on the other spot and you can kill that drone (attack it three times, move away, if it follows place forge else regen shields and finish it unless zerg loses more mining sending a second drone to the place and then sending the first back). Zerg will need to keep alternating drones in this spot for the 65 seconds of the pool time + time taken to mine and make 4 drones. Then 24 seconds for the lings. Until the lings are out you cannot move your drone from that spot because the probe can either drop a forge immediately or place 2 cannons and make a pylon 2 cannon wall assuming he made the forge at home. The probe can still drop a pylon at the natural and then cancel it to further delay the hatch.

So the only risk to the toss are the loss of mining from sending the probe out earlier, and possibly being supply capped for a bit and 100 minerals from the pylon. At the same time, zerg would lose about 100 minerals of lost mining time from rotating the drone blocking the spot for (4 drones + pool + ling) time. And the benefit is a possible instant win.

734pot
Profile Joined June 2012
Australia294 Posts
August 24 2012 16:33 GMT
#68
A protoss gets scouting information by pylon scouting, I dont get scouting information from patrolling a drone at 9
etherealfall
Profile Joined December 2011
Australia476 Posts
August 24 2012 16:40 GMT
#69
But if you drone scouted at the same time but you will know for sure that they're committed to either standard or cheese-y play.
Fairwell
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria195 Posts
August 24 2012 16:41 GMT
#70
On August 25 2012 01:12 kiklion wrote:
I don't see how it is an auto lose for toss. Zerg isn't going to be able to kill the pylon any time soon, so you still have the supply from it so you can keep.. uh do toss call it 'probing up'? sounds wrong.. anyway Zerg now needs to keep a drone on the other spot and you can kill that drone (attack it three times, move away, if it follows place forge else regen shields and finish it unless zerg loses more mining sending a second drone to the place and then sending the first back). Zerg will need to keep alternating drones in this spot for the 65 seconds of the pool time + time taken to mine and make 4 drones. Then 24 seconds for the lings. Until the lings are out you cannot move your drone from that spot because the probe can either drop a forge immediately or place 2 cannons and make a pylon 2 cannon wall assuming he made the forge at home. The probe can still drop a pylon at the natural and then cancel it to further delay the hatch.

So the only risk to the toss are the loss of mining from sending the probe out earlier, and possibly being supply capped for a bit and 100 minerals from the pylon. At the same time, zerg would lose about 100 minerals of lost mining time from rotating the drone blocking the spot for (4 drones + pool + ling) time. And the benefit is a possible instant win.



If a drone and a probe are fighting each other the drone will always win (the drone will regen 1hp during that time while the probe can only regen shields once the unit is out of battle for 8 sec). Like you stated if the probe runs aways you will need to send a 2nd drone or switch out the drones.

However, I think you underestimate the amount the protoss player loses in terms of economy. I'm pretty convinced that if the zerg spots it in time (for example like I had suggested in my previous post by sending the first overlord to the natural and aftewards to the opponent's base) he will come way out ahead in terms of economy. The protoss gets a supply block and further stops making probes to save up money for the forge until the drone arrives to block it.

I remember a thread where it said that the first chronoboosted probe gets you about +150minerals, the 2nd one about 70, the 3rd around 45/50 etc (until full one base saturation). If you cut probes for a while to save up for a 10 forge and sending out the early probe + losing that pylon as well nets in a few hundred lost minerals.

Maybe someone is willing to test it out in detail or do the exact maths for it but I think we can meanwhile assume that it's really all about seeing it coming in time (i.e. while the pylon is warping in).
Zergnub
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden26 Posts
August 24 2012 16:47 GMT
#71
Alright, to all tosses saying this is fair because zerg has 6 pool....
I am a scrub so correct me if I am wrong, but...

A protoss practically _always_ send a probe scout anyway, not only to scout, but to delay the exp and force Z to go pool before hatch, thus practically setting himself more ahead than he would be if he didn't scout and left the probe to mine.

In short, it's not a big sacrifice for a toss to send a probe since by doing so he pretty much dictates how the zerg expands and as a bonus get scouting info.

Patroling ones own ramp with 9 drone isn't exactly the same thing imo in terms of the benefit it brings the player, so why compare the two?


734pot
Profile Joined June 2012
Australia294 Posts
August 24 2012 16:49 GMT
#72
I also find it funny how people use Blizzard's hand in map design as an argument against having a neutral supply depo. They've shown many times before that they struggle to make balanced maps, so I wouldn't assume that the feature of blockable ramps is balanced purely because the Blizzard map design team seems to think so.

Adding on to my previous point, patrolling the drone at the bottom of my ramp gives me no scouting information, no disruption of my opponents mining and no ability to delay a fast expansion or severely cripple them with static defence. Some people seem to be making arguments against the depo on the basis of it forcing an even playing field in terms of early economic sacrifice to be safe against early pools or cannon rushes. From a simple comparison of the opportunity costs it seems that Zerg gets the raw end of this deal, so perhaps we should give Zerg a few more minerals at the start of the game to even it out?

Or maybe you could stop trying to justify your free wins on ladder with poor arguments against a neutral depo at the bottom of the ramp.
InfectedGoat
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada444 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-24 17:11:39
August 24 2012 17:08 GMT
#73
On August 24 2012 16:29 Emuking wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote:


Looks like a map specific ladder problem; i guess from now on you have to drone scout or make some kind of angled scout path for your 1st overlord that passes by your ramp and then goes over to protoss' natural, its not that big a deal if your overlord does a little detour in the beginning.


Overlord went straight to natural, via the ramp. Please watch the replay...


I watched your replay you asshole, please read carefully (hint from now on). Sending your 1st overlord straight to his base is a mistake when you don't have that supply depot


User was warned for this post


LOL, you're wrong

1800 masters here, watched the replay

about drone scouting and overlord pathing:
You get absolutely no benefit in drone scouting in 2 player maps (even 4?). All you're gonna see is either a pylon placed down the ramp to forge expand OR nothing at all, but it's already too late for that build. Some say that you have to change the overlord pathing, but that's just stupid. For example, in Cloud, you can either send it directly to his natural OR try to send it in the central way to see if there's a probe coming earlier than expected. And yeah, you will see if he's doing that specific build. BUT let say he's doing proxy gates at the standard spots (your third or the base near the xel naga towers), then you're not gonna see if he's forge expanding because the probe is taking a whole new path. So you just die because you made drones instead of ling when pool was done.

Yeah, you could send a drone a 8-9 supply down your ramp to prevent this, but in 95% of the games, the protoss will go nexus first and you will be SO FAR behind economicly.
and i was like BANELINGS x 3
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
August 24 2012 17:24 GMT
#74
On August 24 2012 23:38 Daimai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 13:21 X3GoldDot wrote:
On August 24 2012 13:19 Infernal_dream wrote:
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote:
Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?


Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?


pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?


Because zerg can make 15 drones at a time and always have one more base than the protoss and can max out at fucking 12 min.
You know, might have something to do with that.

So you think PvZ is imba because of the roach max? You are forgetting that roaches are basically less supply efficient than workers in a fight, right? And forcefields enable you to kill ~10-20 supply of my army for free, and you have immortals that 3-shot-kill my roaches, and you have zealots with +1 that can kill my lings in 2 hits.

I honestly believe that the matchup is really well balanced; I lose in macro games ~30% of the time to Protoss players! And I almost always lose to cheesy shit. I focus on long-term play, I often skip roach aggression entirely for faster infestor/broodlords or muta aggression.

Tl;dr:
-We actually /can't/ make 15 drones at a time; we make almost no drones because we have to invest 1250 minerals in infrastructure just to get started. Then drone production slowly picks up, then around 7:30 in game, we FINALLY get a worker lead with our first or second big wave of drones.

-Your units are infinitely more cost effective than ours, as long as you have /some/ micro abilities. We need the extra base and drones to even keep up.

-A 12 minute max on roaches is pretty fucking meaningless. A roach is 50 resources per supply; they're as supply efficient as workers or zerglings. To put things into perspective, an immortal or stalker is ~90 resources per supply.

-If anything's imba, it's that Zerg should sacrifice 5+ drones by 8:00 just to prevent a stupid cheese that every tournament has deemed unreasonable and broken.
Getting back into sc2 O_o
evilyoshi123
Profile Joined August 2012
3 Posts
August 24 2012 17:29 GMT
#75
On August 25 2012 01:12 kiklion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2012 00:37 evilyoshi123 wrote:
so in order for this to work, basically protoss has to put down a 10 pylon followed by a 10 forge. in terms of timing, if you rally out your 10th drone to the ramp just to take a peek, you should be able to catch a 10 pylon still mid-warp-in and respond accordingly (since getting this scouted is essentially an autoloss for protoss as long as you prevent the forge block).

mind you i'm not suggesting you patrol your drone there, you're simply checking your ramp at the relevant time and and then sending the drone back to mine if there's no pylon. i feel like this shouldn't set you back too far (like ~10 minerals maybe, if that?) obviously not having the neutral supply depot is totally stupid (this is coming from a protoss player, too), but until blizzard changes it maybe you can do this small adjustment?


I don't see how it is an auto lose for toss. Zerg isn't going to be able to kill the pylon any time soon, so you still have the supply from it so you can keep.. uh do toss call it 'probing up'? sounds wrong.. anyway Zerg now needs to keep a drone on the other spot and you can kill that drone (attack it three times, move away, if it follows place forge else regen shields and finish it unless zerg loses more mining sending a second drone to the place and then sending the first back). Zerg will need to keep alternating drones in this spot for the 65 seconds of the pool time + time taken to mine and make 4 drones. Then 24 seconds for the lings. Until the lings are out you cannot move your drone from that spot because the probe can either drop a forge immediately or place 2 cannons and make a pylon 2 cannon wall assuming he made the forge at home. The probe can still drop a pylon at the natural and then cancel it to further delay the hatch.

So the only risk to the toss are the loss of mining from sending the probe out earlier, and possibly being supply capped for a bit and 100 minerals from the pylon. At the same time, zerg would lose about 100 minerals of lost mining time from rotating the drone blocking the spot for (4 drones + pool + ling) time. And the benefit is a possible instant win.



here's my reasoning behind thinking this is essentially an autoloss

let's say you see the protoss going 10 pylon at your ramp and place down an 11 pool or something like that. the protoss has two options: (1) place the tech right in your face (i.e., a forge or a gateway at your ramp, but not blocking it assuming you've prevented this) or (2) place tech at home and abandon the 10 pylon.

in option (1), as soon as your pool comes up you basically kill both the pylon and the tech, setting protoss back to square 1, with at most another pylon going up back at home but no tech at all. maybe he can do the classic six pool defense of placing a pylon in his mineral line and placing cannon and going from there, but now you can basically just drone up as much as you want while still having a pretty substantial econ lead to begin with.

in option (2), in order to place tech at home, they'll need to first place a pylon and then place tech. either they (a) cut probes to put down a pylon asap, or (b) build constant probes and place pylon+ tech accordingly. either way, if you flood with lings i don't think they'll be able to stop it as long as you keep producing, because either they (a) won't have enough econ to fight your flood of lings or (b) tech will be too late and all they'll have is probes.

of course this is all theorycraft, i never use this strat so i have no idea what it's ramifications are.
aviator116
Profile Joined November 2011
United States820 Posts
August 24 2012 17:36 GMT
#76
Holy crap this is turning into the P/Z OP balance whine thread
To OP: This shit should be patched, neutral supply depots should be added to all ladder maps. Only thing I can theorycraft out is maybe hold your overlord over your ramp until the timing for a forge/pylon block has passed?
To all the Protoss players saying this stuff should be allowed: I thought it was standard in PvZ to 12/13-scout. Saying that all protoss players have to 9 scout because of the possibility of 6pool is ridiculous.
Bogus ST_Life IMMVP
Drmooose
Profile Joined March 2011
United States390 Posts
August 24 2012 18:00 GMT
#77
I just lost to the same guy on shakuras using the same strat. I bane busted and almost won. Had a really bad supply block that probably cost me the game. I don't have an answer vs anyone else but him but a bane bust should work if you run into him again. His forcefields were basically nonexistent. I'll add in a replay when I'm home. I don't know how he was able to attackwith his probe through the wall.
I have a question...
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
August 24 2012 18:37 GMT
#78
The solution has been suggested multiple times and people then start ignoring it and it gets buried. Belial I think you should edit it into the OP:

Solution: On 2 player maps, scout your ramp at 9 or 10 supply at the point where the pylon will be partially constructed.

If he isn't doing the build then you lose only ~5-10 minerals. If he is, you should be in a very advantageous position as you can drop an earlier pool and prevent him from walling you in. There has been some debate about whether zerg should auto-win in this situation or not, I think we'd need some good players to play it out to test.

Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
August 24 2012 18:39 GMT
#79
On August 25 2012 03:37 JDub wrote:
The solution has been suggested multiple times and people then start ignoring it and it gets buried. Belial I think you should edit it into the OP:

Solution: On 2 player maps, scout your ramp at 9 or 10 supply at the point where the pylon will be partially constructed.

If he isn't doing the build then you lose only ~5-10 minerals. If he is, you should be in a very advantageous position as you can drop an earlier pool and prevent him from walling you in. There has been some debate about whether zerg should auto-win in this situation or not, I think we'd need some good players to play it out to test.


Agreed. I think it'd be pretty cool to do some kind of ling/drone all-in once your faster pool finishes; his tech (forge/gateway) will be delayed heavily, so a 14 pool -> 10 ling + drone all-in should win unless you get severely out-micro'd.
Getting back into sc2 O_o
dUTtrOACh
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2339 Posts
August 24 2012 18:46 GMT
#80
I can't believe this thread wasn't closed after the solution was posted, and it's pretty clear who doesn't read responses others have posted before posting themselves. Let's bold this shit so that hopefully someone reads it:

Send your first overlord to your ramp on 2 player maps, and then glide through to the exit of the natural's choke. If necessary, delay moving out from that position until you're "safe" from a ramp block. You know where your opponent is, so you can afford to have sub-optimal overlord scouting patterns that keep you alive.

Christ, so much whining about a 'balance' change that hasn't been in the ladder map pool since the game came out. Blizzard is not going to add neutral depots. /thread
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