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If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
If you're posting in a [H] thread without watching the replay, then you don't belong in strat. Otherwise, you might end up looking like a silly goose!
Just watched the replay.
The way it looked to me: It took you too long to notice the pylon once your overlord scouted (14ish ingame seconds?). You also should have gone for the Pylon first. Even though he can reinforce it, he still can't make any cannons until both the Forge and a Pylon finishes, and you can kill pylons faster than they can build.
Actually if the posts above me are true (you can't kill the pylon by drone drilling with the 3rd) then this is really broken.
At the end of the day you could have played this better, but the fact that stuff like this is even possible prevents Starcraft from ever getting attention as a mainstream spectator sport.
You should rewatch it, and check the timing of when I first got vision of the ramp pylon, and how long it would take to get a drone down there. I responded immediately.
There was no way to go for the pylon first. 2 drones attacking a pylon is not going to kill the pylon before the cannon is up...
I tried drone drilling to kill the pylon instead of the forge, but even with using the mineral patches at the third, I could not drone that way.
Not to mention, drone drilling doesn't work, because toss just reinforces the wall-off.
You actually can't kill pylons faster than they build unless you can get 4+ drones attacking it.
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I've dealt with ridiculous forge blocks too. There are certain players that I play where I go 11 overpool for this exact purpose.
11 overpool won't get lings out in time to stop a ramp block. Please provide reps, because I don't believe you. I played 11 overpool for about a year, and I stopped because Toss was still able to get 13 forge 17 pylon block on me. I seriously don't believe that you've tested this, since a 10 pylon/10 forge is even quicker than a 13 forge/17 3 pylon ramp block. How would 11 overpool work against 10 pylon/10 forge, when it doesnt even work against a much later 13 forge/17 pylon ramp block? This pylon block is complete by ~12 supply.
Why would you go 11 overpool? It doesn't stop ramp blocks at all, not to mention weird forge ones like the one in the replay (please, watch the rep, then compare your timings with your 11 overpool, not to mention 6 lings won't kill a pylon before a half complete cannon kills the lings).
It sounds like you just say you go 11 overpool, and you haven't actually faced a ramp block when going 11 overpool, so you think it works or something. That's how I was for a long time, it was specifically the reason why I went 11 overpool.
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Im only a diamond n00b, but a question here:
With such an opening, toss isnt really that economical. His follow up could be either a FE, or agression. What if you go quick nydus, into expand (bypassing the wall). If toss does a FE, he cant really punish you for it, if he goes agression he 's on even footing as far as econmy goes (and it might be possible to defend an expand with spines and slings?
E.g. you get walled in, nydus you 3rd, exp, spine down the wall from above, and then take your natural?
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pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
why they need to do it, it's the same answer for why zerg have to early scout a terran theses days. Because for PvZ or TvZ you have to do some dmg to zerg early/mid, so very early agression are part of the solutions vs zerg and a good zerg should be prepared to that. if u don't do it u become greedy like protoss expanding before forge and ur exposed to cheese.
The reason they make neutral depot in tournaments it's because a victory by cheese is not very entertaining for spectactors. But isn't this true that 99% of games of starcraft 2 are not casted? imo , it should stay this way because cheese are part of the game and it's normal u can do thoses sometimes when ur pissed off making the same opening again and again. (or when ur on a loose phase) . So for non-tournament games u should play slightly differently to adapt to this simple fact.
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On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Looks like a map specific ladder problem; i guess from now on you have to drone scout or make some kind of angled scout path for your 1st overlord that passes by your ramp and then goes over to protoss' natural, its not that big a deal if your overlord does a little detour in the beginning. Overlord went straight to natural, via the ramp. Please watch the replay...
I watched your replay you asshole, please read carefully (hint from now on). Sending your 1st overlord straight to his base is a mistake when you don't have that supply depot
User was warned for this post
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1st overlord went Northeast toward Protoss. 2nd overlord went towards the natural, spotting the finished pylon. It makes sense that an overlord which you build at the same supply as Protoss's pylon is a tad late to scout said pylon.
Perhaps on 2 player maps it's better to path your first overlord through the natural choke to spot these shenanigans. Haven't played 1v1 Zerg in a while, but this type of thing used to be common back in the Steppes of War / Blistering Sands days. I found sub-optimal but safe overlord patterns to be the only spotting method that saves you pulling a patrol drone. This would be a scenario where it's better to be sub-optimal than dead. At the very least, the design of the natural on Cloud Kingdom makes it so the probe is harder (if not impossible) to hide from 1st overlord.
This is all I can think of that could be done better.
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Make sure to get a drone out of your base at approximately 12 supply to scout. If you get blocked in you build a hatch close to the toss walloff but not close enough to easily get scouted. Take both your gases instantly, reach 20+/- drones in your main and tech to hydra. If your proxy hatch isn't scouted you'll EASILY be able to break the toss walloff and stomp through his tiny army and win.
But yeah wallins are probably the most stupid feature in this game, neutral supply depots in the ramp to your main definitely wont hurt the ladder.
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I always dronescout specifically for this reason. On most maps you will meet the probe with your drone around the 12-13 supply mark, anything earlier is extremely fishy. I tend to send the drone out right before my second overlord pops.
It's a bad map feature for sure, but blizzard won't change the map pool because they don't like the aestetic of lowered depots. Just breathe in a couple of times, cool down and leave the game, it's not worth it getting worked up about ( although I've been in situations where I've just won a 30 minute macro game, only to lose to 3 cannonrushes in a row with pylon block being one of them, which is infuriating to say the least ).
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basically you have to dronescout and even then (after scouting fast forge or in this case fast proxy pylon) you have to be really careful and block possible cannonrush places with drones.
its just so retarded how noob P players are placed way over their real skill. had a very close 22 min game after being pylon blocked yesterday because the P players that do this just outright suck. but hey, blizzard is too dumb to just put a neutral depot at the ramp like tournaments have since years...
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Tested this build out in a few practice games. Tested on Cloud Kingdom only.
Results:
1. Drone drilling does not work. Couldn't find any mineral patches that worked.
2. A spine on the edge can hit the pylon from both spawn locations without creep spread.
3. The best reinforcing protoss wall we could come up with was making a new pylon behind the cannon, and rewalling with another gateway and pylon on the side.
Since this reinforcing wall is pretty weak, I found that going 14gas/pool making a spine/queen and going for 6 banes to break the cannon/pylon works pretty well. Obviously you will want to see if additional cannons are made beforehand and compensate by making more speedlings before busting down the ramp. After that you can expand or double expand depending on what he does. We didn't do much testing after that point but it seemed like I had a good enough economy. Just remember to take guys off gas after the banelings are made since making more is pointless against a decent toss. The spine is the only thing that makes this bust viable imo. Not sure what you would do on other maps...
Replay of build:
http://drop.sc/242828
Also, to people saying 12 drone scout and patrol ramp every game, please stop. We're sick of hearing this. It would have to be done blindly every game and significantly slows down all builds. It's just not viable.
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ive seen this happen a lot in some of the streams i watch, ive got to say the pylon forge is new, ive only beat this a couple of times and it really is by going after the pylon first.... god its hard. ive started to pull 2 drones when i see that sneaky bastard hit my nat at around 13 supply(2 player map) and get them to attack the probe it does a fairly good job at killing it and i dont even micro it, you guys could make it 10x more efficient. It is silly as you are mostly forced to 1 base strat and the only feasible method is banes, which lets face it if you dont do the damage on the initial salvo its gg anyway with them 2 base up and a proxy 3 gates and robo going down by time you get there its hard!
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On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote:
Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ?
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On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote:
Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ?
i totally agree with that ! Protoss loose economy doing so, it is called play safe so why don't you do the same with zerg ? why prot should scout for 6 pool at 9 and zerg shouldnt scout early forge block with a 9 scout too? because he is zerg and shouldn't be annoyed by scouting early?
If you don't scout 6 pool it's autoloose for protoss too. and i honnestly don't see difference between going 6 pool or forge block, it's the same thing --> early cheese that need to be scouted . Except maybe you need more micro obviously with 6 pool
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On August 24 2012 18:59 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote:
Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ? i totally agree with that ! Protoss loose economy doing so, it is called play safe so why don't you do the same with zerg ? why prot should scout for 6 pool at 9 and zerg shouldnt scout early forge block with a 9 scout too? because he is zerg and shouldn't be annoyed by scouting early? If you don't scout 6 pool it's autoloose for protoss too. and i honnestly don't see difference between going 6 pool or forge block, it's the same thing --> early cheese that need to be scouted . Except maybe you need more micro obviously with 6 pool
Regardless, the game is balanced around pro results and therefore not early scouting as zerg. This strategy isn't viable on tournament maps and shouldn't be viable on ladder as well. This is the equivalent of ladder maps having some built in mechanic to prevent 6 pools, making it so protoss doesn't have to 9 scout on ladder, but still has to 9 scout in tournaments. Doesn't make much sense.
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On August 24 2012 18:59 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote:
Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ? i totally agree with that ! Protoss loose economy doing so, it is called play safe so why don't you do the same with zerg ? why prot should scout for 6 pool at 9 and zerg shouldnt scout early forge block with a 9 scout too? because he is zerg and shouldn't be annoyed by scouting early? If you don't scout 6 pool it's autoloose for protoss too. and i honnestly don't see difference between going 6 pool or forge block, it's the same thing --> early cheese that need to be scouted . Except maybe you need more micro obviously with 6 pool
I don't think Protoss sacrifice their workers to make buildings..
I'd assume it be a heavy investment for a Zerg to scout that early - might be one of the reasons overlords got buffed?
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Im sorry, but i have to thank you for showing me this replay, looks like the ultimate pvz cheese (:
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We need a sticky at the top of this thread that clarifies the situation: This is not a normal pylon block, this is a 10 supply pylon block that also uses the forge to block the ramp earlier than normal, so turn off your help thread autopilot and pay attention.
Again, I know we see a lot of pylon block help threads, but this is something different. Even blade and chaos gave the classic pylon block auto-response, at first.
I am curious what the bane response looks like, it just sounds not-ideal due to the 150/150 in banes it will take to bust the pylon. Do you actually have enough lings to take down the cannon as well? If banes work ok, aren't roaches better? Are you getting speed, too, in time for the bust to allow for a counter instead of just retaking the natural? Is countering a good idea? (I realize memcpy has a replay of it, but I'd like to know the thought process.)
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I faced this just today and I have a feeling someone streamed this working.
In my replay, I busted straight through the Pylon and then he put more cannons at the lower level with a pylon at the top of that ramp. I honestly did not see the wall coming, I now scout at 9 due to this. I know it's not normal scouting time, but it at the very least gives me an opportunity to hit him back with a proxy hatch to kill his base off.
Other solution is to start with 6 pools versus Protoss? I know it's not what we "Zerg" players enjoy doing but unless they throw neutral depot.
Think about it, if they can create this "fear" of getting blocked we'll have to watch for it. They can then fake putting down 1 Pylon and then cancel as we pull off while barely take any losses for it.
I apologize if this doesn't directly help you but I would like to eventually find the solution (not patrolling at 9, that seems...odd) & don't want to 6 pool protoss every match.
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Regardless, the game is balanced around pro results and therefore not early scouting as zerg. This strategy isn't viable on tournament maps and shouldn't be viable on ladder as well. This is the equivalent of ladder maps having some built in mechanic to prevent 6 pools, making it so protoss doesn't have to 9 scout on ladder, but still has to 9 scout in tournaments. Doesn't make much sense.
A game can be different for tournament and ladder, actually there are so much differences between ladder and tournaments. (BO3, knowing your opponent before the game etc...) . And for the last time, the only reason tournament maps have anti cheese neutral depot is just for the entertainment of viewers so they don't see a 6 min cheesy game.(it could be pretty fun though  ) .
This strategy also don't disturb the balance of the game at all, as for every cheese it rely on a not safe scouting. and it is easily countered by a proper scouting.
the game is balanced around pro results and therefore not early scouting as zerg
will u say when a protoss don't scout at 9 a zerg he will have a huge advantage above zerg because he gained 40 mineral or so delaying his scout. It is ridiculous. a zerg will be still in good shape scouting this and loosing 40 mineral early. i don't believe that even in high GM level ,a game has be won or ever be won by protoss because zerg loose so few mineral scouting early.
It's part of the LADDER game dealing with such cheese and you should deal with it much of the time because it is so simple to counter.
imo zerg just want so bad play good the mid/late game because they like it and it's fun , so they just don't bother playing good early and just whine about early game all the time .
I am very happy there are a lot of other strategies in the ladder game than strategies we see on events/tournaments, it makes the game more varied.
Viva el queso !!
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EPT
