Please watch the replay before commenting. A few notes as well -
- 12 drone scout and 9 overlord do not get vision of ramp block until it's too late - Drone drilling does not work on every map/spawn including in this game, nor does it work against a forge (as was the case here). Also, everyone knows drone drilling is not effective, because Toss just reinforces the wall-in and by then the cannon is up, and even if you do break, you are further behind economically (15dronesx40minerals/min=600+ mineral lost) - A 9-16 drone patrol would put you down over 80 minerals. - The difference between Toss' 9 probe scout and a 9 drone patrol would be that a 9 probe scout gets to see exactly what Zerg is doing (gas/gasless), harass their expands (block/deny nat and third). A 9 drone patrol would see nothing, and a 9 drone scout would also just only come into Toss' base to see nothing or nothing decisive.
- For the last goddamn time don't say drone drilling when it has been proven not to work
He pulls a probe immediately, and puts a 10 pylon at my ramp. By the time my overlord saw vision of my ramp (i watched the replay at least 3 times now, it wasn't any sort of "why didn't you notice a probe/pylon?" crap I could have done), the pylon was done. Even on maps with smaller mains, if I had seen a warping pylon, he'd have that probe right there so he could get there before I could...
to plant his forge there.
Drone drilling is a joke, Toss can reinforce the wall-in, so don't tell me that, not to mention it doesn't work on most spawns, and a drone drill doesn't exactly work on a building like a forge with so much HP.
He then glitches his probe into my main, and is able to fully scout what I would do next, and the only really option I could do is some sort of 1 base nydus. Doesn't exactly work well.
Ya, the ramp block is pretty annoying, but you could've drilled the forge much faster or drilled the pylon using the mineral patch from your 3rd base using camera hotkeys.
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote: Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote: Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
Sadly when I get pylon walled, I just end up leaving the game because you're forced to do a one base strat which doesn't work 90% of the time.
With that said, blizz does need to implement a natural supply depot at the bottom of the ramp. Keeping a drone on patrol every game, early game is just an idea that still puts the zerg behind...
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote: Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
Just leave, it's bascially a free win and a waste of time to play against. I've tried everything from 1 base nydus to baneling all ins, to roaches. It takes a very long time to break out even with immediate creep tumor + spine from the high ground. I've never once seen a pro player recover from this being done against someone of their own skill level. It's just an imbalanced strategy that blizzard doesn't know how to fix. GomTV even apologized to Nestea in the last GSL when Byun abused a map that somehow accidentally had lost the depot in an update. I'm all for early rushes but it is just not possible to recover from in any type of reasonable or realistic game. It is also unbelievably hard to stop and can be done on a whim without being preplanned. This is why every major tournament has this implemented on their maps. If it was not a big deal, most tournaments wouldn't modify their maps in such a way. Blizzard doesn't want to add neutural depots to the bottom of maps because it's confusing to new players and also openly admits to a game flaw. They need to make the bottom of ramps unbuildable, end of story.
You have to follow the probe otherwise he'll get it down all the time. Follow and if you think he's going to do it hold position on the ramp as you pull a few more to prevent it. That's what I do on ladder and I have retarded toss players who call me stupid to do that because they can't get the pylon wall off :D
editing to watch rep give me a sec:
I'll be the first to say that is something I have never seen before wtf lol. For drone drill you should have tried the pylon is your best bet. Other then that you could do a baneling bust follow up.
What I would have done, as soon as you saw that get gas - baneling nest - bust the pylon. That's your only chance really, the thing for his forge is he'll be late on upgrades once you kill it.
Looks like a map specific ladder problem; i guess from now on you have to drone scout or make some kind of angled scout path for your 1st overlord that passes by your ramp and then goes over to protoss' natural, its not that big a deal if your overlord does a little detour in the beginning.
On August 24 2012 13:40 blade55555 wrote: You have to follow the probe otherwise he'll get it down all the time. Follow and if you think he's going to do it hold position on the ramp as you pull a few more to prevent it. That's what I do on ladder and I have retarded toss players who call me stupid to do that because they can't get the pylon wall off :D
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YOU MUST WATCH REPLAYS when they are provided when responding to a thread.
Ya, the ramp block is pretty annoying, but you could've drilled the forge much faster or drilled the pylon using the mineral patch from your 3rd base using camera hotkeys.
Tried, can't. Doesn't address the problem of toss reinforcing the wall-in either, or if I successfully broke out I'd be more behind because 15x40=600 minerals, which is more than what toss lost.
Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
If you watch the rep, you'd see that I couldn't see the pylon/forge block even with my overlord going straight to the nat and a 12 drone scout. If you say it adds flavor, then you can't possibly have ever faced it. It would make no sense if Zerg had to drone scout on 9 every game simply because of a ramp block.
Or do you think all the tournie maps are broken in favor of Zerg because Zerg isn't forced to pull a drone?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
Put a drone on patrol from 9 supply to 20 supply, until pool pops? And lose 80 minerals?
It's dealable with a standard 13 forge at home because you just pull 2 drones to deal with the 1 probe scout and you want to make the hatch. It's not balanced, nor is it fun or good game design, but it's dealable.
Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
You have to follow the probe otherwise he'll get it down all the time.
Sorry blade, but check out the rep. There is no 'follow the probe' here, he put down a pylon/forge before my overlord got vision of the ramp, and before my 12 drone scout was even close to the ramp.
Looks like a map specific ladder problem; i guess from now on you have to drone scout or make some kind of angled scout path for your 1st overlord that passes by your ramp and then goes over to protoss' natural, its not that big a deal if your overlord does a little detour in the beginning.
Overlord went straight to natural, via the ramp. Please watch the replay...
Ya, the ramp block is pretty annoying, but you could've drilled the forge much faster or drilled the pylon using the mineral patch from your 3rd base using camera hotkeys.
Tried, can't. Doesn't address the problem of toss reinforcing the wall-in either, or if I successfully broke out I'd be more behind because 15x40=600 minerals, which is more than what toss lost.
The thing is that if you successfully kills the wall off and he re-wall it behind it, you'll have a much bigger surface area to attack, as well as lings coming.
I'll be the first to say that is something I have never seen before wtf lol. For drone drill you should have tried the pylon is your best bet. Other then that you could do a baneling bust follow up (and take bases I know you went banelings but you broke out so late it didn't matter).
What I would have done, as soon as you saw that get gas - baneling nest - bust the pylon. That's your only chance really, the thing for his forge is he'll be late on upgrades once you kill it.
Also that fuck you is well deserved he deserves it imo :D
^ I tried the pylon, I coulnd't get a drone drill even with using the third base.
Also, drone drilling doesn't work. I don't know why people keep saying that when it's been proven not to work against a competent toss reaction. Toss simply reinforces the wall with a gate/pylons.
Most of the time, you won't be able to drone drill this 2nd building, but, if you are so lucky to even be able to, it won't matter because Toss will have a cannon up, shooting your drones (similiarly, drone drilling doesn't work against terran 2 bunker ramp blocks, as they will have a marine/reaper out when bunkers go down, shooting the drones).
All of this doesn't really matter, because drone drilling puts you further behind economically than Toss will be. 3 pylons or pylon/forge = 250-300 minerals, which is a lot less than 600 minerals lost from 15 workers not mining for a minute (although they won't be mining for more than a minute, actually).
I've been trying to play PvZ and do this myself against someone, see what they do, but so far I've run into only terrans and toss. So much for my 1300 point ranking.
On August 24 2012 13:58 Belial88 wrote: ^ I tried the pylon, I coulnd't get a drone drill even with using the third base.
Also, drone drilling doesn't work. I don't know why people keep saying that when it's been proven not to work against a competent toss reaction. Toss simply reinforces the wall with a gate/pylons.
Most of the time, you won't be able to drone drill this 2nd building, but, if you are so lucky to even be able to, it won't matter because Toss will have a cannon up, shooting your drones (similiarly, drone drilling doesn't work against terran 2 bunker ramp blocks, as they will have a marine/reaper out when bunkers go down, shooting the drones).
All of this doesn't really matter, because drone drilling puts you further behind economically than Toss will be. 3 pylons or pylon/forge = 250-300 minerals, which is a lot less than 600 minerals lost from 15 workers not mining for a minute (although they won't be mining for more than a minute, actually).
I've been trying to play PvZ and do this myself against someone, see what they do, but so far I've run into only terrans and toss ;/
I know drone drilling doesn't work, if I ever let a korean toss get the 3 pylons up it's over they know about it and know how to counter it.
I dont' even bother with it anymore (on the NA server I might). I just get gas, banelings to get the pylon and then double expand or since his forge is at my ramp I kill that (so he can't build more cannons) and then go for a bust at his natural.
The way it looked to me: It took you too long to notice the pylon once your overlord scouted (14ish ingame seconds?). You also should have gone for the Pylon first. Even though he can reinforce it, he still can't make any cannons until both the Forge and a Pylon finishes, and you can kill pylons faster than they can build.
Actually if the posts above me are true (you can't kill the pylon by drone drilling with the 3rd) then this is really broken.
At the end of the day you could have played this better, but the fact that stuff like this is even possible prevents Starcraft from ever getting attention as a mainstream spectator sport.
If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
If you're posting in a [H] thread without watching the replay, then you don't belong in strat. Otherwise, you might end up looking like a silly goose!
Just watched the replay.
The way it looked to me: It took you too long to notice the pylon once your overlord scouted (14ish ingame seconds?). You also should have gone for the Pylon first. Even though he can reinforce it, he still can't make any cannons until both the Forge and a Pylon finishes, and you can kill pylons faster than they can build.
Actually if the posts above me are true (you can't kill the pylon by drone drilling with the 3rd) then this is really broken.
At the end of the day you could have played this better, but the fact that stuff like this is even possible prevents Starcraft from ever getting attention as a mainstream spectator sport.
You should rewatch it, and check the timing of when I first got vision of the ramp pylon, and how long it would take to get a drone down there. I responded immediately.
There was no way to go for the pylon first. 2 drones attacking a pylon is not going to kill the pylon before the cannon is up...
I tried drone drilling to kill the pylon instead of the forge, but even with using the mineral patches at the third, I could not drone that way.
Not to mention, drone drilling doesn't work, because toss just reinforces the wall-off.
You actually can't kill pylons faster than they build unless you can get 4+ drones attacking it.
I've dealt with ridiculous forge blocks too. There are certain players that I play where I go 11 overpool for this exact purpose.
11 overpool won't get lings out in time to stop a ramp block. Please provide reps, because I don't believe you. I played 11 overpool for about a year, and I stopped because Toss was still able to get 13 forge 17 pylon block on me. I seriously don't believe that you've tested this, since a 10 pylon/10 forge is even quicker than a 13 forge/17 3 pylon ramp block. How would 11 overpool work against 10 pylon/10 forge, when it doesnt even work against a much later 13 forge/17 pylon ramp block? This pylon block is complete by ~12 supply.
Why would you go 11 overpool? It doesn't stop ramp blocks at all, not to mention weird forge ones like the one in the replay (please, watch the rep, then compare your timings with your 11 overpool, not to mention 6 lings won't kill a pylon before a half complete cannon kills the lings).
It sounds like you just say you go 11 overpool, and you haven't actually faced a ramp block when going 11 overpool, so you think it works or something. That's how I was for a long time, it was specifically the reason why I went 11 overpool.
Im only a diamond n00b, but a question here: With such an opening, toss isnt really that economical. His follow up could be either a FE, or agression. What if you go quick nydus, into expand (bypassing the wall). If toss does a FE, he cant really punish you for it, if he goes agression he 's on even footing as far as econmy goes (and it might be possible to defend an expand with spines and slings?
E.g. you get walled in, nydus you 3rd, exp, spine down the wall from above, and then take your natural?
pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
why they need to do it, it's the same answer for why zerg have to early scout a terran theses days. Because for PvZ or TvZ you have to do some dmg to zerg early/mid, so very early agression are part of the solutions vs zerg and a good zerg should be prepared to that. if u don't do it u become greedy like protoss expanding before forge and ur exposed to cheese.
The reason they make neutral depot in tournaments it's because a victory by cheese is not very entertaining for spectactors. But isn't this true that 99% of games of starcraft 2 are not casted? imo , it should stay this way because cheese are part of the game and it's normal u can do thoses sometimes when ur pissed off making the same opening again and again. (or when ur on a loose phase) . So for non-tournament games u should play slightly differently to adapt to this simple fact.
Looks like a map specific ladder problem; i guess from now on you have to drone scout or make some kind of angled scout path for your 1st overlord that passes by your ramp and then goes over to protoss' natural, its not that big a deal if your overlord does a little detour in the beginning.
Overlord went straight to natural, via the ramp. Please watch the replay...
I watched your replay you asshole, please read carefully (hint from now on). Sending your 1st overlord straight to his base is a mistake when you don't have that supply depot
1st overlord went Northeast toward Protoss. 2nd overlord went towards the natural, spotting the finished pylon. It makes sense that an overlord which you build at the same supply as Protoss's pylon is a tad late to scout said pylon.
Perhaps on 2 player maps it's better to path your first overlord through the natural choke to spot these shenanigans. Haven't played 1v1 Zerg in a while, but this type of thing used to be common back in the Steppes of War / Blistering Sands days. I found sub-optimal but safe overlord patterns to be the only spotting method that saves you pulling a patrol drone. This would be a scenario where it's better to be sub-optimal than dead. At the very least, the design of the natural on Cloud Kingdom makes it so the probe is harder (if not impossible) to hide from 1st overlord.
This is all I can think of that could be done better.
Make sure to get a drone out of your base at approximately 12 supply to scout. If you get blocked in you build a hatch close to the toss walloff but not close enough to easily get scouted. Take both your gases instantly, reach 20+/- drones in your main and tech to hydra. If your proxy hatch isn't scouted you'll EASILY be able to break the toss walloff and stomp through his tiny army and win. But yeah wallins are probably the most stupid feature in this game, neutral supply depots in the ramp to your main definitely wont hurt the ladder.
I always dronescout specifically for this reason. On most maps you will meet the probe with your drone around the 12-13 supply mark, anything earlier is extremely fishy. I tend to send the drone out right before my second overlord pops.
It's a bad map feature for sure, but blizzard won't change the map pool because they don't like the aestetic of lowered depots. Just breathe in a couple of times, cool down and leave the game, it's not worth it getting worked up about ( although I've been in situations where I've just won a 30 minute macro game, only to lose to 3 cannonrushes in a row with pylon block being one of them, which is infuriating to say the least ).
basically you have to dronescout and even then (after scouting fast forge or in this case fast proxy pylon) you have to be really careful and block possible cannonrush places with drones.
its just so retarded how noob P players are placed way over their real skill. had a very close 22 min game after being pylon blocked yesterday because the P players that do this just outright suck. but hey, blizzard is too dumb to just put a neutral depot at the ramp like tournaments have since years...
Tested this build out in a few practice games. Tested on Cloud Kingdom only.
Results: 1. Drone drilling does not work. Couldn't find any mineral patches that worked. 2. A spine on the edge can hit the pylon from both spawn locations without creep spread. 3. The best reinforcing protoss wall we could come up with was making a new pylon behind the cannon, and rewalling with another gateway and pylon on the side.
Since this reinforcing wall is pretty weak, I found that going 14gas/pool making a spine/queen and going for 6 banes to break the cannon/pylon works pretty well. Obviously you will want to see if additional cannons are made beforehand and compensate by making more speedlings before busting down the ramp. After that you can expand or double expand depending on what he does. We didn't do much testing after that point but it seemed like I had a good enough economy. Just remember to take guys off gas after the banelings are made since making more is pointless against a decent toss. The spine is the only thing that makes this bust viable imo. Not sure what you would do on other maps...
Also, to people saying 12 drone scout and patrol ramp every game, please stop. We're sick of hearing this. It would have to be done blindly every game and significantly slows down all builds. It's just not viable.
ive seen this happen a lot in some of the streams i watch, ive got to say the pylon forge is new, ive only beat this a couple of times and it really is by going after the pylon first.... god its hard. ive started to pull 2 drones when i see that sneaky bastard hit my nat at around 13 supply(2 player map) and get them to attack the probe it does a fairly good job at killing it and i dont even micro it, you guys could make it 10x more efficient. It is silly as you are mostly forced to 1 base strat and the only feasible method is banes, which lets face it if you dont do the damage on the initial salvo its gg anyway with them 2 base up and a proxy 3 gates and robo going down by time you get there its hard!
On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote: Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ?
On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote: Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ?
i totally agree with that ! Protoss loose economy doing so, it is called play safe so why don't you do the same with zerg ? why prot should scout for 6 pool at 9 and zerg shouldnt scout early forge block with a 9 scout too? because he is zerg and shouldn't be annoyed by scouting early?
If you don't scout 6 pool it's autoloose for protoss too. and i honnestly don't see difference between going 6 pool or forge block, it's the same thing --> early cheese that need to be scouted . Except maybe you need more micro obviously with 6 pool
On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote: Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ?
i totally agree with that ! Protoss loose economy doing so, it is called play safe so why don't you do the same with zerg ? why prot should scout for 6 pool at 9 and zerg shouldnt scout early forge block with a 9 scout too? because he is zerg and shouldn't be annoyed by scouting early?
If you don't scout 6 pool it's autoloose for protoss too. and i honnestly don't see difference between going 6 pool or forge block, it's the same thing --> early cheese that need to be scouted . Except maybe you need more micro obviously with 6 pool
Regardless, the game is balanced around pro results and therefore not early scouting as zerg. This strategy isn't viable on tournament maps and shouldn't be viable on ladder as well. This is the equivalent of ladder maps having some built in mechanic to prevent 6 pools, making it so protoss doesn't have to 9 scout on ladder, but still has to 9 scout in tournaments. Doesn't make much sense.
On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote: Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ?
i totally agree with that ! Protoss loose economy doing so, it is called play safe so why don't you do the same with zerg ? why prot should scout for 6 pool at 9 and zerg shouldnt scout early forge block with a 9 scout too? because he is zerg and shouldn't be annoyed by scouting early?
If you don't scout 6 pool it's autoloose for protoss too. and i honnestly don't see difference between going 6 pool or forge block, it's the same thing --> early cheese that need to be scouted . Except maybe you need more micro obviously with 6 pool
I don't think Protoss sacrifice their workers to make buildings.. I'd assume it be a heavy investment for a Zerg to scout that early - might be one of the reasons overlords got buffed?
We need a sticky at the top of this thread that clarifies the situation: This is not a normal pylon block, this is a 10 supply pylon block that also uses the forge to block the ramp earlier than normal, so turn off your help thread autopilot and pay attention.
Again, I know we see a lot of pylon block help threads, but this is something different. Even blade and chaos gave the classic pylon block auto-response, at first.
I am curious what the bane response looks like, it just sounds not-ideal due to the 150/150 in banes it will take to bust the pylon. Do you actually have enough lings to take down the cannon as well? If banes work ok, aren't roaches better? Are you getting speed, too, in time for the bust to allow for a counter instead of just retaking the natural? Is countering a good idea? (I realize memcpy has a replay of it, but I'd like to know the thought process.)
I faced this just today and I have a feeling someone streamed this working. In my replay, I busted straight through the Pylon and then he put more cannons at the lower level with a pylon at the top of that ramp. I honestly did not see the wall coming, I now scout at 9 due to this. I know it's not normal scouting time, but it at the very least gives me an opportunity to hit him back with a proxy hatch to kill his base off.
Other solution is to start with 6 pools versus Protoss? I know it's not what we "Zerg" players enjoy doing but unless they throw neutral depot. Think about it, if they can create this "fear" of getting blocked we'll have to watch for it. They can then fake putting down 1 Pylon and then cancel as we pull off while barely take any losses for it.
I apologize if this doesn't directly help you but I would like to eventually find the solution (not patrolling at 9, that seems...odd) & don't want to 6 pool protoss every match.
Regardless, the game is balanced around pro results and therefore not early scouting as zerg. This strategy isn't viable on tournament maps and shouldn't be viable on ladder as well. This is the equivalent of ladder maps having some built in mechanic to prevent 6 pools, making it so protoss doesn't have to 9 scout on ladder, but still has to 9 scout in tournaments. Doesn't make much sense.
A game can be different for tournament and ladder, actually there are so much differences between ladder and tournaments. (BO3, knowing your opponent before the game etc...) . And for the last time, the only reason tournament maps have anti cheese neutral depot is just for the entertainment of viewers so they don't see a 6 min cheesy game.(it could be pretty fun though ) .
This strategy also don't disturb the balance of the game at all, as for every cheese it rely on a not safe scouting. and it is easily countered by a proper scouting.
the game is balanced around pro results and therefore not early scouting as zerg
will u say when a protoss don't scout at 9 a zerg he will have a huge advantage above zerg because he gained 40 mineral or so delaying his scout. It is ridiculous. a zerg will be still in good shape scouting this and loosing 40 mineral early. i don't believe that even in high GM level ,a game has be won or ever be won by protoss because zerg loose so few mineral scouting early.
It's part of the LADDER game dealing with such cheese and you should deal with it much of the time because it is so simple to counter. imo zerg just want so bad play good the mid/late game because they like it and it's fun , so they just don't bother playing good early and just whine about early game all the time .
I am very happy there are a lot of other strategies in the ladder game than strategies we see on events/tournaments, it makes the game more varied.
On August 24 2012 20:05 6xFPCs wrote: We need a sticky at the top of this thread that clarifies the situation: This is not a normal pylon block, this is a 10 supply pylon block that also uses the forge to block the ramp earlier than normal, so turn off your help thread autopilot and pay attention.
Again, I know we see a lot of pylon block help threads, but this is something different. Even blade and chaos gave the classic pylon block auto-response, at first.
That's because putting a drone there, while inefficient, is the only thing that doesn't reak of one base shenanigans. If you want to go for a freaking baneling bust on a wall that thick you will need a ton of zerglings and banelings ( takes like 5 to 6 banelings to kill off one pylon, let alone anything that is behind it ). You will have invested over 200 gas and larvae that should have been drones just to get out of your base while the Protoss can even reinforce that wall with gateways if he really wants to be a douche.
Getting up a roach warren similarly will delay your exit by a ton and give the protoss free reign over his economy while yours is limited to 1 base. Your queen production will be delayed as well due to the fact that you are on one hatch ( two if you went for a macro hatchery and didn't want a third ) so he could abuse it with a double stargate follow up, any 2 base follow up or just sit on his ass and just take it if the zerg wants to go for a 2 base all in. All of this with any agression from the zerg being completely all in because you ahve to build drones to catch up to his economy.
Don't get me wrong, if there was any person out here on the strategy forum that would suggest an earlier gas against anything protoss does I would be the first to jump in and groan about it. But against anything pylonblocking on your natural it is just way too detrimental. It is the same kind of inefficient BS in the current metagame as Tal darim altar or any of the early to mid 2011 maps were, and what some ladder maps probably will always be.
I have never been able to come back against any block, terran or protoss, if my opponent had any build order resembling competance after the initial block.
Regardless, the game is balanced around pro results and therefore not early scouting as zerg. This strategy isn't viable on tournament maps and shouldn't be viable on ladder as well. This is the equivalent of ladder maps having some built in mechanic to prevent 6 pools, making it so protoss doesn't have to 9 scout on ladder, but still has to 9 scout in tournaments. Doesn't make much sense.
A game can be different for tournament and ladder, actually there are so much differences between ladder and tournaments. (BO3, knowing your opponent before the game etc...) . And for the last time, the only reason tournament maps have anti cheese neutral depot is just for the entertainment of viewers so they don't see a 6 min cheesy game.(it could be pretty fun though ) .
This strategy also don't disturb the balance of the game at all, as for every cheese it rely on a not safe scouting. and it is easily countered by a proper scouting.
the game is balanced around pro results and therefore not early scouting as zerg
will u say when a protoss don't scout at 9 a zerg he will have a huge advantage above zerg because he gained 40 mineral or so delaying his scout. It is ridiculous. a zerg will be still in good shape scouting this and loosing 40 mineral early. i don't believe that even in high GM level ,a game has be won or ever be won by protoss because zerg loose so few mineral scouting early.
It's part of the LADDER game dealing with such cheese and you should deal with it much of the time because it is so simple to counter. imo zerg just want so bad play good the mid/late game because they like it and it's fun , so they just don't bother playing good early and just whine about early game all the time .
I am very happy there are a lot of other strategies in the ladder game than strategies we see on events/tournaments, it makes the game more varied.
Viva el queso !!
its 80 minerals which is nearly 2 more drones which is like 4-6 drones @8:00. so stop telling its not a big deal.
the P player doing this are just abusing the shit out of the fact that there arent any neutral depots. it has NOTHING to do with skill and they basically get free wins or get an economically lead by forcing dronescout/patrol. so yes the game is balanced around pro levels where the zerg has those 80 minerals early on.
On August 24 2012 20:17 SSVnormandy wrote: . And for the last time, the only reason tournament maps have anti cheese neutral depot is just for the entertainment of viewers so they don't see a 6 min cheesy game.(it could be pretty fun though ) .
Do you have a link to a source where a tournament map maker says neutral depots were added for the entertainment of the viewers?
One question though, couldn't you have gone around the Forge as his Probe entered your main without any problems?
With the Cannon on the way, you would have lost 2-3 Drones, but you would have killed off the Cannon and you could split the Drones for any additional Cannons or is it some kind of a weird ramp block?
Yes, on ladder, I always put a Drone on patrol, it takes away minerals and puts me a bit behind, but that was just way too fast for a "standard" ramp block with 3 Pylons (he wasn't even paying attention for the first 6 seconds).
Edit: and I love how every Protoss after failing a cheese (or blocking the ramp) goes for Void Rays or DTs, I'm guessing your opponent was Diamond (as 90% of them play like this)
Do you have a link to a source where a tournament map maker says neutral depots were added for the entertainment of the viewers?
No but it's pretty obvious though. They want pro games that are casted turn into amazing epic macro game. easy wins are boring to watch.
the P player doing this are just abusing the shit out of the fact that there arent any neutral depots. it has NOTHING to do with skill and they basically get free wins or get an economically lead by forcing dronescout/patrol. so yes the game is balanced around pro levels where the zerg has those 80 minerals early on.
I don't see any reason to forbid easy win strategy. it is obvious there are strategy requireing more or less skill. But should we forbid all strategy that aren't skilled enough ? exit 7 roach, exit flush toilet archon etc... And you can't say it's imbalanced because the counter is very easy to do and it gives you also the free win at last, like all cheese /counter cheese action.
the game will sure be more designed for pro with anti cheese map etc... but it will be so much boring to play i think.
I never get mad at people cheesing me because it always a good experience to try something different and to learn from scouting mistakes. How many zergs learned to proper scout now because they were abused cheesed all the time? Are those zergs loosing much more in macro games? .. not sure
the P player doing this are just abusing the shit out of the fact that there arent any neutral depots. it has NOTHING to do with skill and they basically get free wins or get an economically lead by forcing dronescout/patrol. so yes the game is balanced around pro levels where the zerg has those 80 minerals early on.
I don't see any reason to forbid easy win strategy. it is obvious there are strategy requireing more or less skill. But should we forbid all strategy that aren't skilled enough ? exit 7 roach, exit flush toilet archon etc... And you can't say it's imbalanced because the counter is very easy to do and it gives you also the free win at last, like all cheese /counter cheese action.
the game will sure be more designed for pro with anti cheese map etc... but it will be so much boring to play i think.
I never get mad at people cheesing me because it always a good experience to try something different and to learn from scouting mistakes. How many zergs learned to proper scout now because they were abused cheesed all the time? Are those zergs loosing much more in macro games? .. not sure
okay so you dont get that 80 minerals that early is a huge deal. okay then so you dont get that but dont compare an imbalanced strat that is removed from tournament pro play with other cheese strategies that arent imbalanced.
I think most of you are just wrong - it´s ok for zerg when blizzard force terran to build depot before barracks, now they want neutral pylon to stop another cheese against them. That´s similar (from my point of view) if z would have to build observer before spawning pool. That would stop 6-7-8-9-10 pool.
Generaly I am against all these changes - it eliminates variety in game and maps without netrual depots are not imbalanced.
Hi all, my 2 cents <Diamond player> Ive poped up against the twice and beat it twice vs other Diamonds, not sure how well it might work in Masters but here it is anyway
As soon as my 2nd Ovi saw it, same scouting as Beliels above, 1st to base then 2nd to nat for 'standard' cannon rushes ect ect and as soon as i see it gas up, get a 2nd queens and go for a horridly late 7 roach, take all drones off gas when 150 (7 roachs) then send down the 2nd queen as a tank with the 7 roachs and dps down all the pylons and ignore the other buildings/ cannons then pull all my drones to have a drone 7 roach all in and spam lings to the other base until ran out of money and leave the 2 queens behind to stop any probe re powering the buildings (slowly killing them all the time ofc) and in both the cases the drones soaked up enough damage for the roachs to do damage until the lings appear
its all in but its a lose anyway, ive not tried anything else as it worked first time and then the 2nd
and lol Malvig, Zerg starts with a Ovi anyway so ovi before pool is a mute point
okay so you dont get that 80 minerals that early is a huge deal. okay then so you dont get that but dont compare an imbalanced strat that is removed from tournament pro play with other cheese strategies that arent imbalanced.
imo you're not forced to block down the ramp all the time like an idiot ! u can just make a quick scout up your ramp at key timings for this/thoses cheese like the one that was presented in the replay (9 pylon) or the classical one 3 pylone. It's like every strat, you can say it's imba it should be removed/nerfed, or i should learn to counter it the optimal way. I prefer thinking the second way...
if it's ur choice to not bother with cheesy play because you don't want to loose precious it's your right, but it also called playing more greedy and it's a style with its risks that can pay off most of the time.
Besides it's been a while tournament use neutral depot and if Blizzard think they should not be implemented in ladder they have maybe good reason (or maybe bad) to not do it.But If it is so imbalanced as you said they would have to do something long time ago. I will not accuse blizzard to not take care about balance in their game when i see amazing job they did to balance it so far.
When a new imbalanced strat was found, players always found an optimal way to counter it and make the matchup evolves and in case they don't find solution, blizzard always took action to reduce power of such strategy.
actually there are only minor change in the balance of the game since 4-5 month and i think it is because the game is very balanced. what you are talking about is an important change in the design of the ladder maps.
I know it is difficult to say, but you have to say lucid: what the heck does this pylon-forge block can do for him? A cannon on the highground follow up: thats his only exit. Knowing that, the only danger for you is him managing to sneak a cannon uphill in the range of the first cannon, because than, although he can't kill you because of the creep, you will be in a hell of a trouble freeing your entrance without the highground advantage. I watched the replay closely: you could have put down a spine crawler to deny that area before he threw down his second cannon. You do that, it's over for him: can't cannon rush you anywhere else (has to build a pylon first, not defended by the downhill cannon), cant defend his lowground structures anymore.
Now you know how to screw him up next time (I advice you to make a second queen asap after the sunken so that you can expand your creep to your ramp)
okay so you dont get that 80 minerals that early is a huge deal. okay then so you dont get that but dont compare an imbalanced strat that is removed from tournament pro play with other cheese strategies that arent imbalanced.
imo you're not forced to block down the ramp all the time like an idiot ! u can just make a quick scout up your ramp at key timings for this/thoses cheese like the one that was presented in the replay (9 pylon) or the classical one 3 pylone. It's like every strat, you can say it's imba it should be removed/nerfed, or i should learn to counter it the optimal way. I prefer thinking the second way...
if it's ur choice to not bother with cheesy play because you don't want to loose precious it's your right, but it also called playing more greedy and it's a style with its risks that can pay off most of the time.
Besides it's been a while tournament use neutral depot and if Blizzard think they should not be implemented in ladder they have maybe good reason (or maybe bad) to not do it.But If it is so imbalanced as you said they would have to do something long time ago. I will not accuse blizzard to not take care about balance in their game when i see amazing job they did to balance it so far.
When a new imbalanced strat was found, players always found an optimal way to counter it and make the matchup evolves and in case they don't find solution, blizzard always took action to reduce power of such strategy.
actually there are only minor change in the balance of the game since 4-5 month and i think it is because the game is very balanced. what you are talking about is an important change in the design of the ladder maps.
i never said pvz is imba, i said no neutral depots are and so every pro and tournament thinks. since you still think 80 min early on isnt a big deal i cant help you...
its not 3 pylon block or pylon + forge block being imba in the sense it cant be stopped, its the lost mining time to prevent it being imba! hope now you get what i mean.
i never said pvz is imba, i said no neutral depots are and so every pro and tournament thinks. since you still think 80 min early on isnt a big deal i cant help you...
maybe the way you prevent from that cheese is not optimal and u can proper scout it without loosing 80 mineral. you can train to use another solution like for example use your first ovi or whatever that can be smarter than patroling from 9 probe timing to 17 probe timing... In this thread a lot of people have come with some answers, open your eyes and you may find a solution that can suit you best or develop your own solution.
I hate to say it but I kind of agree with the guy above. The protoss either uses his first python in the wall at a specific tine you can scout, or is a 3 pylon block after forge which is a very different time... Since there is not real in between you don't need your drone patrolling the while time, and in the case of first pylon, you only have to check initially since he can't forge until the pylon finishes.
I also agree with the people saying this strat is pointless and the depot should be added. If you scout a ffe add zerg you can't really tell if he will wall you from that info, whereas early pools are kind of clear in intent.
Another thing to consider is that an early scout as protoss gives information to keep a relatively greedy build safe, while a patrolling drone keeps an (as of yet) ungreedy pool first build safe from a rare instant win strat, but gives no information add there is no scouting.
just watched the replay. As has been pointed out, one of your spines could obviously hit both pylon and cannon. So it should be no problem starting a spine as soon as your pool is done. If you feel like his cannon will finish up first, build it slightly out of range of his cannon and unroot it. Other than that, drone drilling is really aweful. It sounded like a cute trick, but in truth it sets you behind way too much. I don't really care for what happened in the replay after that, since you already threw yourself behind by 2-3 minutes with that fail drill. Instead, drone up, get a Queen. If you feel like it, get a macro Hatchery in your base. Continue to drone up until your base is fully saturated with both gases while getting a baneling nest. Since he cut probes hard, and you did not cut any except for that Spine Crawler you should do very well regarding this, plus he will have neither sentries nor +1 Zealots when you finally move out. Deny his probe with your Spine Crawler/Queen, and take out the upfront Pylon/Cannon with your Spine. He will be forced to wall in a wider arc (and most likely include Pylons as a wall). So when you are fully saturated, put on the kill switch and start massing Zergling/Baneling. Nydus often times took too long for me to win in this situation, plus you need the ability to make Banelings in case he walls at his own natural again (where Nydus-Counters often fail if he is aware of his own bases). Of course, Roach allin might work as well, as could double expanding after you take out his contain. But i prefer the easy win, since he cannot have hard counters to zergling/baneling ready by the time i attack.
TL;DR: You threw the game by trying to drone drill, never do it again. Instead, drone up, get banelings OR roaches while having a Spine poking at him (and preventing his probe from coming up). When fully saturated, put on the kill switch
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote: Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
Because zerg can make 15 drones at a time and always have one more base than the protoss and can max out at fucking 12 min. You know, might have something to do with that.
I watched the replay and the best thing I could think of is sending the first overlord to your nat. The second can easily get to his base but is a little more delayed scout. If you see him put down 1 pylon you pull enough drones (2-4) and just defend. But if you actualy get blocked you could use the nydus for moving out drones and forces to just expand and defend them. You will be behind but it's better than just losing. You can see that he had to wall off so you know that he wont come out until he has a good 2 base army to either attack or take a third. His army buildings are also behind so his push will be delayed and you can probably defend it with lings, queens and spines. The bug is just utter bull but you defended that okay. Good luck
Never really seen a move-out of the probe this early to do this. I guess we all have to 9 drone-scout the ramps if we want to prevent this. I really wish Blizzard would get their heads out of their asses and take the same map-balancing steps the professional organizations have to ensure decent games.
If you do see it as the forge goes down, a drone drill with a perfect 10 drones does more damage to the forge than it gets from building. Considering he's unable to build any cannons if you get the forge down before it goes up, he can reinforce the wall all he wants to, its not going to change a thing.
That being said, if the Forge goes down like in your replay, the only thing I can think of is that he's four times more all in with it than usual. Consider how early he skips workers to get this crap down. Now I'm one of those players who still get a relatively early gas, so I can have a relatively early Nydus worm up aswell and just transition into a macro game. If you've gone entirely gasless I don't know if you have an honest chance at winning.
On August 24 2012 23:47 sCCrooked wrote: Never really seen a move-out of the probe this early to do this. I guess we all have to 9 drone-scout the ramps if we want to prevent this. I really wish Blizzard would get their heads out of their asses and take the same map-balancing steps the professional organizations have to ensure decent games.
I don't think 9 drone-scouting the ramp (as people are now finally suggesting, it seems so obvious now) on 2 player maps is all that ridiculous. Definitely something to start doing now. It won't be an 80 mineral loss as patrolling a drone there forever would be, you only need to check the ramp once at the proper time, and lose maybe 5-10 minerals.
On August 24 2012 23:57 CravinR1 wrote: Blizzard needs to require a overlord before pool, same as pylon before gate or depot before rax
Zerg can make one tech building and max out on that unit. You guys have infestors, mutas, roaches
basically stfu
I'd be fine with that change considering we get an overlord at the start of the game. You're just flaming zerg because you're probably having a hard time against them, and not adding anything to the discussion.
On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote: It would make no sense if Zerg had to drone scout on 9 every game simply because of a ramp block.
Protoss also has to 9 pylon scout in every pvz to be safe vs 6pool (and even send out a 2nd probe on maps like tal darim the moment they plant their forge down at 13 supply in case their first probe would find their opponent at the last spot ...). Grubby for instance is always even starting a pylon at 15 supply in his main and cancels it once his probe reaches the zerg's base, otherwise the canon would be quite delayed.
There are lot of things like these in the game and every matchup puts other restrictions on the player. If something is not only strong or legitime but rather abusive (i.e. way too strong) then blizzard will and should address it for obvious reasons. For a similar thing (2 pylon block) they introduced neutral supply depots (which have been a standard for a long time already in tournament maps). They seemed to be fine with the possibility with a 3 pylon block though since ladder maps offer this possibility. Blizzard wants cheese to be in the game, but it should never be too strong.
Basically it's a 3 pylon block with a canon behind, just that the forge is not at home and is used for the block. There is a huge difference here though: This version comes way faster. If this means that it's way too strong or that zergs need to 9 drone scout like protoss does the probe scout in pvz (or even just check around your ramp like protoss often checks his base for proxy gates/canon rush in pvp and then returns back to mining) or alternatively sends the first overlord (not the 2nd like in the replay provided) to the natural and then to the opponent's base (after the overlord speed buff it should still be there in time) is something that only Blizzard can decide. Like someone else noted above already, I also do believe that, if you scout it too late, probably the best followup is to get a quick gas + baneling nest or alternatively roaches and bust the pylon. Not a great position to be in but better than all those other 1 base plays which take way longer.
I personally would be pissed as well if someone did this to me on the ladder since I hardly ever cheese and hate it to get cheesed. But it's still a part of the game.
On August 25 2012 00:17 Fairwell wrote: I personally would be pissed as well if someone did this to me on the ladder since I hardly ever cheese and hate it to get cheesed. But it's still a part of the game.
But it's a part of the game that every single major tournament has recognized is harmful to the game and shouldn't be allowed.
Watched the replay, only thing I can think of is if the original OL scout is really worth it in a 2 player map? Understanding cloud kingdom is 2 player, as well as a ramp lacking a depot, you'd have been better off simply placing your first OL in the nat and sending your second one to that silly pillar outside HIS nat to confirm expo or 1base pressure.
If you had seen the pylon with the first OL the build would certainly not have been as effective.
so in order for this to work, basically protoss has to put down a 10 pylon followed by a 10 forge. in terms of timing, if you rally out your 10th drone to the ramp just to take a peek, you should be able to catch a 10 pylon still mid-warp-in and respond accordingly (since getting this scouted is essentially an autoloss for protoss as long as you prevent the forge block).
mind you i'm not suggesting you patrol your drone there, you're simply checking your ramp at the relevant time and and then sending the drone back to mine if there's no pylon. i feel like this shouldn't set you back too far (like ~10 minerals maybe, if that?) obviously not having the neutral supply depot is totally stupid (this is coming from a protoss player, too), but until blizzard changes it maybe you can do this small adjustment?
On August 25 2012 00:37 evilyoshi123 wrote: so in order for this to work, basically protoss has to put down a 10 pylon followed by a 10 forge. in terms of timing, if you rally out your 10th drone to the ramp just to take a peek, you should be able to catch a 10 pylon still mid-warp-in and respond accordingly (since getting this scouted is essentially an autoloss for protoss as long as you prevent the forge block).
mind you i'm not suggesting you patrol your drone there, you're simply checking your ramp at the relevant time and and then sending the drone back to mine if there's no pylon. i feel like this shouldn't set you back too far (like ~10 minerals maybe, if that?) obviously not having the neutral supply depot is totally stupid (this is coming from a protoss player, too), but until blizzard changes it maybe you can do this small adjustment?
I don't see how it is an auto lose for toss. Zerg isn't going to be able to kill the pylon any time soon, so you still have the supply from it so you can keep.. uh do toss call it 'probing up'? sounds wrong.. anyway Zerg now needs to keep a drone on the other spot and you can kill that drone (attack it three times, move away, if it follows place forge else regen shields and finish it unless zerg loses more mining sending a second drone to the place and then sending the first back). Zerg will need to keep alternating drones in this spot for the 65 seconds of the pool time + time taken to mine and make 4 drones. Then 24 seconds for the lings. Until the lings are out you cannot move your drone from that spot because the probe can either drop a forge immediately or place 2 cannons and make a pylon 2 cannon wall assuming he made the forge at home. The probe can still drop a pylon at the natural and then cancel it to further delay the hatch.
So the only risk to the toss are the loss of mining from sending the probe out earlier, and possibly being supply capped for a bit and 100 minerals from the pylon. At the same time, zerg would lose about 100 minerals of lost mining time from rotating the drone blocking the spot for (4 drones + pool + ling) time. And the benefit is a possible instant win.
On August 25 2012 01:12 kiklion wrote: I don't see how it is an auto lose for toss. Zerg isn't going to be able to kill the pylon any time soon, so you still have the supply from it so you can keep.. uh do toss call it 'probing up'? sounds wrong.. anyway Zerg now needs to keep a drone on the other spot and you can kill that drone (attack it three times, move away, if it follows place forge else regen shields and finish it unless zerg loses more mining sending a second drone to the place and then sending the first back). Zerg will need to keep alternating drones in this spot for the 65 seconds of the pool time + time taken to mine and make 4 drones. Then 24 seconds for the lings. Until the lings are out you cannot move your drone from that spot because the probe can either drop a forge immediately or place 2 cannons and make a pylon 2 cannon wall assuming he made the forge at home. The probe can still drop a pylon at the natural and then cancel it to further delay the hatch.
So the only risk to the toss are the loss of mining from sending the probe out earlier, and possibly being supply capped for a bit and 100 minerals from the pylon. At the same time, zerg would lose about 100 minerals of lost mining time from rotating the drone blocking the spot for (4 drones + pool + ling) time. And the benefit is a possible instant win.
If a drone and a probe are fighting each other the drone will always win (the drone will regen 1hp during that time while the probe can only regen shields once the unit is out of battle for 8 sec). Like you stated if the probe runs aways you will need to send a 2nd drone or switch out the drones.
However, I think you underestimate the amount the protoss player loses in terms of economy. I'm pretty convinced that if the zerg spots it in time (for example like I had suggested in my previous post by sending the first overlord to the natural and aftewards to the opponent's base) he will come way out ahead in terms of economy. The protoss gets a supply block and further stops making probes to save up money for the forge until the drone arrives to block it.
I remember a thread where it said that the first chronoboosted probe gets you about +150minerals, the 2nd one about 70, the 3rd around 45/50 etc (until full one base saturation). If you cut probes for a while to save up for a 10 forge and sending out the early probe + losing that pylon as well nets in a few hundred lost minerals.
Maybe someone is willing to test it out in detail or do the exact maths for it but I think we can meanwhile assume that it's really all about seeing it coming in time (i.e. while the pylon is warping in).
Alright, to all tosses saying this is fair because zerg has 6 pool.... I am a scrub so correct me if I am wrong, but...
A protoss practically _always_ send a probe scout anyway, not only to scout, but to delay the exp and force Z to go pool before hatch, thus practically setting himself more ahead than he would be if he didn't scout and left the probe to mine.
In short, it's not a big sacrifice for a toss to send a probe since by doing so he pretty much dictates how the zerg expands and as a bonus get scouting info.
Patroling ones own ramp with 9 drone isn't exactly the same thing imo in terms of the benefit it brings the player, so why compare the two?
I also find it funny how people use Blizzard's hand in map design as an argument against having a neutral supply depo. They've shown many times before that they struggle to make balanced maps, so I wouldn't assume that the feature of blockable ramps is balanced purely because the Blizzard map design team seems to think so.
Adding on to my previous point, patrolling the drone at the bottom of my ramp gives me no scouting information, no disruption of my opponents mining and no ability to delay a fast expansion or severely cripple them with static defence. Some people seem to be making arguments against the depo on the basis of it forcing an even playing field in terms of early economic sacrifice to be safe against early pools or cannon rushes. From a simple comparison of the opportunity costs it seems that Zerg gets the raw end of this deal, so perhaps we should give Zerg a few more minerals at the start of the game to even it out?
Or maybe you could stop trying to justify your free wins on ladder with poor arguments against a neutral depo at the bottom of the ramp.
Looks like a map specific ladder problem; i guess from now on you have to drone scout or make some kind of angled scout path for your 1st overlord that passes by your ramp and then goes over to protoss' natural, its not that big a deal if your overlord does a little detour in the beginning.
Overlord went straight to natural, via the ramp. Please watch the replay...
I watched your replay you asshole, please read carefully (hint from now on). Sending your 1st overlord straight to his base is a mistake when you don't have that supply depot
User was warned for this post
LOL, you're wrong
1800 masters here, watched the replay
about drone scouting and overlord pathing: You get absolutely no benefit in drone scouting in 2 player maps (even 4?). All you're gonna see is either a pylon placed down the ramp to forge expand OR nothing at all, but it's already too late for that build. Some say that you have to change the overlord pathing, but that's just stupid. For example, in Cloud, you can either send it directly to his natural OR try to send it in the central way to see if there's a probe coming earlier than expected. And yeah, you will see if he's doing that specific build. BUT let say he's doing proxy gates at the standard spots (your third or the base near the xel naga towers), then you're not gonna see if he's forge expanding because the probe is taking a whole new path. So you just die because you made drones instead of ling when pool was done.
Yeah, you could send a drone a 8-9 supply down your ramp to prevent this, but in 95% of the games, the protoss will go nexus first and you will be SO FAR behind economicly.
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote: Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
Because zerg can make 15 drones at a time and always have one more base than the protoss and can max out at fucking 12 min. You know, might have something to do with that.
So you think PvZ is imba because of the roach max? You are forgetting that roaches are basically less supply efficient than workers in a fight, right? And forcefields enable you to kill ~10-20 supply of my army for free, and you have immortals that 3-shot-kill my roaches, and you have zealots with +1 that can kill my lings in 2 hits.
I honestly believe that the matchup is really well balanced; I lose in macro games ~30% of the time to Protoss players! And I almost always lose to cheesy shit. I focus on long-term play, I often skip roach aggression entirely for faster infestor/broodlords or muta aggression.
Tl;dr: -We actually /can't/ make 15 drones at a time; we make almost no drones because we have to invest 1250 minerals in infrastructure just to get started. Then drone production slowly picks up, then around 7:30 in game, we FINALLY get a worker lead with our first or second big wave of drones.
-Your units are infinitely more cost effective than ours, as long as you have /some/ micro abilities. We need the extra base and drones to even keep up.
-A 12 minute max on roaches is pretty fucking meaningless. A roach is 50 resources per supply; they're as supply efficient as workers or zerglings. To put things into perspective, an immortal or stalker is ~90 resources per supply.
-If anything's imba, it's that Zerg should sacrifice 5+ drones by 8:00 just to prevent a stupid cheese that every tournament has deemed unreasonable and broken.
On August 25 2012 00:37 evilyoshi123 wrote: so in order for this to work, basically protoss has to put down a 10 pylon followed by a 10 forge. in terms of timing, if you rally out your 10th drone to the ramp just to take a peek, you should be able to catch a 10 pylon still mid-warp-in and respond accordingly (since getting this scouted is essentially an autoloss for protoss as long as you prevent the forge block).
mind you i'm not suggesting you patrol your drone there, you're simply checking your ramp at the relevant time and and then sending the drone back to mine if there's no pylon. i feel like this shouldn't set you back too far (like ~10 minerals maybe, if that?) obviously not having the neutral supply depot is totally stupid (this is coming from a protoss player, too), but until blizzard changes it maybe you can do this small adjustment?
I don't see how it is an auto lose for toss. Zerg isn't going to be able to kill the pylon any time soon, so you still have the supply from it so you can keep.. uh do toss call it 'probing up'? sounds wrong.. anyway Zerg now needs to keep a drone on the other spot and you can kill that drone (attack it three times, move away, if it follows place forge else regen shields and finish it unless zerg loses more mining sending a second drone to the place and then sending the first back). Zerg will need to keep alternating drones in this spot for the 65 seconds of the pool time + time taken to mine and make 4 drones. Then 24 seconds for the lings. Until the lings are out you cannot move your drone from that spot because the probe can either drop a forge immediately or place 2 cannons and make a pylon 2 cannon wall assuming he made the forge at home. The probe can still drop a pylon at the natural and then cancel it to further delay the hatch.
So the only risk to the toss are the loss of mining from sending the probe out earlier, and possibly being supply capped for a bit and 100 minerals from the pylon. At the same time, zerg would lose about 100 minerals of lost mining time from rotating the drone blocking the spot for (4 drones + pool + ling) time. And the benefit is a possible instant win.
here's my reasoning behind thinking this is essentially an autoloss
let's say you see the protoss going 10 pylon at your ramp and place down an 11 pool or something like that. the protoss has two options: (1) place the tech right in your face (i.e., a forge or a gateway at your ramp, but not blocking it assuming you've prevented this) or (2) place tech at home and abandon the 10 pylon.
in option (1), as soon as your pool comes up you basically kill both the pylon and the tech, setting protoss back to square 1, with at most another pylon going up back at home but no tech at all. maybe he can do the classic six pool defense of placing a pylon in his mineral line and placing cannon and going from there, but now you can basically just drone up as much as you want while still having a pretty substantial econ lead to begin with.
in option (2), in order to place tech at home, they'll need to first place a pylon and then place tech. either they (a) cut probes to put down a pylon asap, or (b) build constant probes and place pylon+ tech accordingly. either way, if you flood with lings i don't think they'll be able to stop it as long as you keep producing, because either they (a) won't have enough econ to fight your flood of lings or (b) tech will be too late and all they'll have is probes.
of course this is all theorycraft, i never use this strat so i have no idea what it's ramifications are.
Holy crap this is turning into the P/Z OP balance whine thread To OP: This shit should be patched, neutral supply depots should be added to all ladder maps. Only thing I can theorycraft out is maybe hold your overlord over your ramp until the timing for a forge/pylon block has passed? To all the Protoss players saying this stuff should be allowed: I thought it was standard in PvZ to 12/13-scout. Saying that all protoss players have to 9 scout because of the possibility of 6pool is ridiculous.
I just lost to the same guy on shakuras using the same strat. I bane busted and almost won. Had a really bad supply block that probably cost me the game. I don't have an answer vs anyone else but him but a bane bust should work if you run into him again. His forcefields were basically nonexistent. I'll add in a replay when I'm home. I don't know how he was able to attackwith his probe through the wall.
The solution has been suggested multiple times and people then start ignoring it and it gets buried. Belial I think you should edit it into the OP:
Solution: On 2 player maps, scout your ramp at 9 or 10 supply at the point where the pylon will be partially constructed.
If he isn't doing the build then you lose only ~5-10 minerals. If he is, you should be in a very advantageous position as you can drop an earlier pool and prevent him from walling you in. There has been some debate about whether zerg should auto-win in this situation or not, I think we'd need some good players to play it out to test.
On August 25 2012 03:37 JDub wrote: The solution has been suggested multiple times and people then start ignoring it and it gets buried. Belial I think you should edit it into the OP:
Solution: On 2 player maps, scout your ramp at 9 or 10 supply at the point where the pylon will be partially constructed.
If he isn't doing the build then you lose only ~5-10 minerals. If he is, you should be in a very advantageous position as you can drop an earlier pool and prevent him from walling you in. There has been some debate about whether zerg should auto-win in this situation or not, I think we'd need some good players to play it out to test.
Agreed. I think it'd be pretty cool to do some kind of ling/drone all-in once your faster pool finishes; his tech (forge/gateway) will be delayed heavily, so a 14 pool -> 10 ling + drone all-in should win unless you get severely out-micro'd.
I can't believe this thread wasn't closed after the solution was posted, and it's pretty clear who doesn't read responses others have posted before posting themselves. Let's bold this shit so that hopefully someone reads it:
Send your first overlord to your ramp on 2 player maps, and then glide through to the exit of the natural's choke. If necessary, delay moving out from that position until you're "safe" from a ramp block. You know where your opponent is, so you can afford to have sub-optimal overlord scouting patterns that keep you alive.
Christ, so much whining about a 'balance' change that hasn't been in the ladder map pool since the game came out. Blizzard is not going to add neutral depots. /thread
On August 25 2012 03:37 JDub wrote: The solution has been suggested multiple times and people then start ignoring it and it gets buried. Belial I think you should edit it into the OP:
Solution: On 2 player maps, scout your ramp at 9 or 10 supply at the point where the pylon will be partially constructed.
If he isn't doing the build then you lose only ~5-10 minerals. If he is, you should be in a very advantageous position as you can drop an earlier pool and prevent him from walling you in. There has been some debate about whether zerg should auto-win in this situation or not, I think we'd need some good players to play it out to test.
It's actually so much more simple than that. You don't have to lose mining time at all unless a pylon goes down.
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote: Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
I take issue with this view, as Protoss does need to pull a probe early for scouting, or else risk dying to similar strategies from the Zerg or Terran.
A drone scout on 9 would have shut this particular rush down. Even a 12 scout would probably have been good enough. Remember, your Toss opponent scouts on 9 (or earlier) so you're not falling behind by doing this.
Assuming you find yourself in this position, there's a variety of things you can do:
If you can drone drill a pylon, that could be an option; notice that the damage you dealt would have killed a pylon but just uselessly downed the shields on the Forge. But if you're not going to get through with the drone drill, then don't do it! The lost mining time is what killed you in this game.
1 base Roaches. That cannon might look scary, but it can't see the high ground. For him to see the high ground he has to glitch his probe in, and your Roaches promptly kill it. Anything in range to block your ramp is in range for your roaches to kill for free. Sure, he's probably going to expand 3 minutes before you do, but he's losing 400 resources at the front of your ramp, and then he also has to turtle up his natural to not die to the roaches. You find yourself in the usual position of any game of SC2, the fakeout between whether you are going to all-in or expand, and he's on the guessing side.
1 base Nydus. A cannon rush can't actually hurt your first base. At all. If you don't waste any mining time, his first cannon being in your face sets him behind. To defend your nydus, he has to turtle up pretty hard, and your scouting overlords get to know whether this is happening or not. If he's not turtling enough, kill him. Otherwise, expand.
Drone drilling doesn't work? Then you are not using it properly and you are not using camera hotkeys. Builds like this are braindead and hard to beat (unless you prevent the forge obviously), but hey, that's ladder for you.
On August 25 2012 04:04 achristes wrote: Drone drilling doesn't work? Then you are not using it properly and you are not using camera hotkeys. Builds like this are braindead and hard to beat (unless you prevent the forge obviously), but hey, that's ladder for you.
Just to clarify, drone drilling with 15 drones will not kill a pylon before the protoss can put up a gateway and pylon behind the initial pylon. He can then cancel them both slightly later when the cannon finishes.
There are ways to deal with this, but drone drilling is not one of them. Please stop suggesting this.
On August 25 2012 04:04 achristes wrote: Drone drilling doesn't work? Then you are not using it properly and you are not using camera hotkeys. Builds like this are braindead and hard to beat (unless you prevent the forge obviously), but hey, that's ladder for you.
What he's saying is a good toss will just rebuild it before you kill one of the pylons or anything. I would know on korea when I get cannon rushed if I try the drone drill they build something so that once I kill whichever pylon i'm focusing it's still blocked off and cannon will still finish and thus i'll still be locked in my base.
On NA though they aren't smart enough to do that, or weren't Idk bout now as I haven't been cannon rushed on there in a long time.
On August 25 2012 03:37 JDub wrote: The solution has been suggested multiple times and people then start ignoring it and it gets buried. Belial I think you should edit it into the OP:
Solution: On 2 player maps, scout your ramp at 9 or 10 supply at the point where the pylon will be partially constructed.
If he isn't doing the build then you lose only ~5-10 minerals. If he is, you should be in a very advantageous position as you can drop an earlier pool and prevent him from walling you in. There has been some debate about whether zerg should auto-win in this situation or not, I think we'd need some good players to play it out to test.
It's actually so much more simple than that. You don't have to lose mining time at all unless a pylon goes down.
i think your overlord solution also works, but imo it's more beneficial for zerg to send their first overlord to scout the enemy base, especially since this build isn't that common at the moment. it's the difference in sacrificing 5-10 minerals and sacrificing your first scout every game to stay safe. i would say scout is more important than 5-10 minerals.
Theres no reason for your overlord to head directly to his natural if youre doing any pool later than 12, lining it up to see the ramps would have meant an auto win. The largest mistake i see here was the drone drill; Personally i dont like them but as you can now tell they do not work vs a forge. The best response i can concieve in this situation would have been to go for as fast a queen as possible and uses roaches to break the contain. At this point he will have to reinforce his nat (assuming he took one) with cannons and you can recover slowly. I also would advise going for a very passive infestor spine playstyle after this as his macro is likely weak. Needless to say theres a reason these are blocked in tournaments. If you would like to practice responses to this id be happy to help (i owe you for the beating early pools guide.)
Ralethon.338
I also have an opening that i believe hard counters this while still being safe vs FFE and very good vs gate fe's.
On August 25 2012 03:51 dUTtrOACh wrote: It's actually so much more simple than that. You don't have to lose mining time at all unless a pylon goes down.
Let's agree on this then. There are two solutions, one results in a minor loss of 5-10 minerals, one results in a slightly later scout of your opponent (personally I think this is slightly more problematic because you won't see forge expo v. gateway expo v. proxy gates until later, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise).
Solution 1: On 2 player maps, scout your ramp at 9 or 10 supply (the point where the pylon will be partially constructed).
Solution 2: Send your first overlord to your ramp on 2 player maps, and then glide through to the exit of the natural's choke. If necessary, delay moving out from that position until you're "safe" from a ramp block. You know where your opponent is, so you can afford to have sub-optimal overlord scouting patterns that keep you alive.
The case is closed here. Please people stop arguing about balance, Belial made the thread to get feedback on how to stop the build, people have suggested two viable responses that have a minimal effect on the game. Either you'll still scout your opponent slightly later than normal, but still way earlier than you would on a 4-player map, or you'll lose 5-10 minerals which is much less than you lose if you drone scout on a 4-player map, which is pretty common practice.
Ok after watching this replay...this is definitely abusing the ladder version of the map...however I wouldn't go on to say it's imbalance and "not fair"
That's the same as Protoss 9-scouting on a 4 player map like Entombed and Zerg 6 pooled and was scouted last position. I mean Protoss can send another Probe which tremendously hurts the economy let alone the 9 pylon scout (for all the zergs complaining about early scouting). Yes I understand that our builds are mostly adapted to scouting that early but it's all apart of the game and how things shift. Honestly early scouting by zerg can do a lot of things; for example, Protoss can't go Nexus first if you 9 or 10 scout. Next is the fact that you can harass the pylon to the point where Protoss literally has to have a probe down there or else the pylon will be close to dying off. But yes I agree, Zerg doesn't HAVE TO scout that early.
My thoughts after the replay: If you see that fast of a ramp block, I wouldn't even try to kill it off with drone drilling. I would just get the pool asap and make a spine right when you have enough money. If you have done that, he couldn't be able to build another cannon up top to allow vision. This will allow you to kill off the wall-in faster than you did. His probe is trapped in the main so he can no longer add on cannons from behind til his next probe gets there.
Now this is where the protoss has two options. He can either fully commit and add more cannons or he expands. He can't really do both during this time. From there I would get a macro hatch and play standard with a faster roach warren.
If he fully commits: All you literally have to do is get a nydus then since you should have both gas from here and nydus asap. It doesn't have to be in his base though it would be the best place; it just has to be near it.
If he expands: Once you kill off the ramp block, go ahead and pressure with 3-5 roaches at the front. This itself will force Protoss to overreact and make more cannons, more defense, which puts them really behind in either tech, production, or economy. You don't have to go for the kill at this point though you MIGHT be able to win from there. You can just keep droning and go standard from here on with a huge advantage.
All of this is based upon theorycrafting as I've never done nor experienced this kind of gimmick myself. Though I can understand the swift decision of trying to break it immediately.
i suppose it depends on how seriously you take ur ladder points and ranking, if i see shit like this, i just respond straight away with "Challenge accepted" in chat (usually with a ton of bm from the opp afterwards but thats cool)and then go full on Destiny if i beat it with GTFO GTFO GTFO . . . there is no greater feeling than overcoming this in my books. Sc2=GoodGame!
On August 25 2012 01:33 734pot wrote: A protoss gets scouting information by pylon scouting, I dont get scouting information from patrolling a drone at 9
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote: Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
The thing is there are some things that give and overwhelming advantage the fact that they can do that and its instant win plus the fact that he can glitch his probes so he can also just get into your base anyway is just dumb . If the most prestigious leagues in the world make it so toss can't do that why can't it be like that on ladder?
Make sure to get a drone out of your base at approximately 12 supply to scout. If you get blocked in you build a hatch close to the toss walloff but not close enough to easily get scouted. Take both your gases instantly, reach 20+/- drones in your main and tech to hydra. If your proxy hatch isn't scouted you'll EASILY be able to break the toss walloff and stomp through his tiny army and win. But yeah wallins are probably the most stupid feature in this game, neutral supply depots in the ramp to your main definitely wont hurt the ladder.
I always dronescout specifically for this reason. On most maps you will meet the probe with your drone around the 12-13 supply mark, anything earlier is extremely fishy. I tend to send the drone out right before my second overlord pops.
It's a bad map feature for sure, but blizzard won't change the map pool because they don't like the aestetic of lowered depots. Just breathe in a couple of times, cool down and leave the game, it's not worth it getting worked up about ( although I've been in situations where I've just won a 30 minute macro game, only to lose to 3 cannonrushes in a row with pylon block being one of them, which is infuriating to say the least ).'
basically you have to dronescout and even then (after scouting fast forge or in this case fast proxy pylon) you have to be really careful and block possible cannonrush places with drones.
decendos, chaosvuistje, terkill
If you watched the replay, you'd see that the 12 drone scout I sent was too late and did not even get to the ramp before the wall-off occurred.
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ?
I don't think there is anything wrong with 9 worker scouts, because you get valuable scouting information. I personally always 9 drone scout in ZvZ and ZvR.
The problem with patrolling a drone at the ramp from 9-16, is unlike a drone scout, it isn't getting any useful information. If I had sent a drone at 9, I would not scout that Toss had an empty base and was going to ramp block me until my drone was in his base and the wall-in already went up and it'd be too late.
So it's not even close to the same thing... and Toss doesn't necessarily have to scout on 9, they can scout after 13 forge just fine too. And you are getting a large amount of information in regards to what Zerg is going to be doing for the next 10 minutes based on this scout.
how do you watch the replay? am I the only one that needs to put it into the folder belonging to replays? I remember that with old patches I could just click on them and they would start loading. Also , it seems like I cannot acess via guest, and I don't understand the why. Fuck this patch, blizzard is unable to do things properly.
Yea, that is obnoxious. There's 2 things you can do:
1. In SC2, go to the replay area. You should see a folder button at like the top of the list showing replays, if you click it, SC2 will alt-tab, and an explorer will come up where you just navigate to where you downloaded the file, simply select it, click open, and sc2 will play it. 2. Cut or Copy/Paste the file to where SC2 stores saved replays. Mine are in /documents/sc2/belial12345/Replays/Multiplayer
And for the last time, the only reason tournament maps have anti cheese neutral depot is just for the entertainment of viewers so they don't see a 6 min cheesy game.(it could be pretty fun though ) .
You have no idea what you are talking about. Cannon rushes occur all the time in tournament play, they are no different than a pylon block in terms of execution and the length of the game.
They put in neutral depots because it's completely broken, just like close spawns is completely broken. You can check out any tournament page where they talk about putting in neutral depots.
There is no 'this is easily detered by early scouting'. You are clearly a huge troll. Sending out a 9 drone is only going to result in Zerg having a drone out on the middle of the map, while a probe is blocking off the ramp and the overlord doesn't see it until it's too late. The difference between a 9 probe scout and a 9 drone patrol is that with a probe scout you are getting valuble information on the opponent's build - I scout at 9 in ZvZ and ZvR every time.
But you are asking to do something that no one does. You are clearly either a troll or someone who has never played Zerg and faced this.
That's the same as Protoss 9-scouting on a 4 player map like Entombed and Zerg 6 pooled and was scouted last position. I mean Protoss can send another Probe which tremendously hurts the economy let alone the 9 pylon scout (for all the zergs complaining about early scouting). Yes I understand that our builds are mostly adapted to scouting that early but it's all apart of the game and how things shift. Honestly early scouting by zerg can do a lot of things; for example, Protoss can't go Nexus first if you 9 or 10 scout. Next is the fact that you can harass the pylon to the point where Protoss literally has to have a probe down there or else the pylon will be close to dying off. But yes I agree, Zerg doesn't HAVE TO scout that early.
A drone cannot deny a nexus first. Anyone with half a brain simply pulls 2 workers to deal with a worker-block. Toss is the only one that can deny such things, because of pylons (arguably Terran with ebays... hatch/evo block i think is a bit extreme).
All of this is based upon theorycrafting as I've never done nor experienced this kind of gimmick myself. Though I can understand the swift decision of trying to break it immediately.
Then don't offer advice if you don't know what you are talking about then. It will be pretty obvious a 1 base bust is coming to Toss, as that is the only option Zerg will have.
That's the same as Protoss 9-scouting on a 4 player map like Entombed and Zerg 6 pooled and was scouted last position. I mean Protoss can send another Probe which tremendously hurts the economy let alone the 9 pylon scout (for all the zergs complaining about early scouting). Yes I understand that our builds are mostly adapted to scouting that early but it's all apart of the game and how things shift. Honestly early scouting by zerg can do a lot of things; for example, Protoss can't go Nexus first if you 9 or 10 scout. Next is the fact that you can harass the pylon to the point where Protoss literally has to have a probe down there or else the pylon will be close to dying off. But yes I agree, Zerg doesn't HAVE TO scout that early.
A drone cannot deny a nexus first. Anyone with half a brain simply pulls 2 workers to deal with a worker-block. Toss is the only one that can deny such things, because of pylons (arguably Terran with ebays... hatch/evo block i think is a bit extreme).
All of this is based upon theorycrafting as I've never done nor experienced this kind of gimmick myself. Though I can understand the swift decision of trying to break it immediately.
Then don't offer advice if you don't know what you are talking about then. It will be pretty obvious a 1 base bust is coming to Toss, as that is the only option Zerg will have.
Ok first off, you need to clean up your attitude. People, including myself, are trying to help you with some suggestions that HAVEN'T even been tested. Is my theorycraft completely stupid? In my opinion, NO. Well is it actually the right response? I don't know. As I stated at the bottom. It's a suggestion that to me makes sense coming from a Protoss POV.
If Zerg doesn't see a forge when 9 scouting, you can just throw up a hatchery. What will Protoss do in response, have to make a late forge or pull probes (which would completely suck). You can just even evo block him for all I care about. If Protoss was aiming toward a Nexus first and you stop it, his build is screwed up a bit.
Of course I don't know what I'm talking about because I've never done this build. Did everyone in this thread tried or faced this build? Highly unlikely including blade. So step off your high horse there buddy and be willing to accept suggestions when your response was completely wrong in the first place. How is it pretty obvious that a 1base bust is coming from toss? If you actually stop and/or kill his wall off, you can do a little roach push at the front of his base. If he commits, you can just nydus outside or inside his base. Obviously outside will have a better chance of not being scouted.
i found myself a master player on battle net who read this read as well, and we tried for several hours. Here is what we came up with: your opponent HAS to get a probe in your base and build at least one or two cannons here. If he does not, you just get the spine as soon as your pool finishes, place it on the very edge of the creep, and any baneling all in from here on will win if he tries to take his natural. Since your spine will make life miserable for his wall, he will have to either wall in a greater arc behind it (and lose to banelings), or he will try to take his own natural, but not able to stop your onslaught
so once he commits by cannoning into your main base, you either have to go roaches and/or nydus, since ling/bling won't cut it anymore alone at this point (he will have cannons both above and below the cliff, so your units tend to bug out, and you will most likely lose everything without completely breaking it. And he will just elevator another probe up if necessary). what you should rather not do: - do not chase his probe with drones. Even if you manage to get it, it does cost you too much, since if he is smart there will be a second probe getting to your base the very moment you finally manage to kill the first. Plus, he can always take cover in cannon range - do not build buildings closer to the ramp. Your main Hatch should be save, as the creep keeps cannons away, but a spawning pool next to the hatchery can be targeted. Place important (read: all but spines/extractors) behind your hatchery away from the ramp, preferably behind your mineral line - since you have melee-heavy units and he has ranged buildings, plus he has shields that regenerate, never fight a fight that will be close in any way. If you barely lose it, you just lost yourself the game, as he will regenerate. If you barely win it, you still most probably lost more than you can afford - do not panic and place double or even triple spine crawlers as soon as your pool finishes. It will severely cut into your economy, at which point you are too far behind to have a realistic chance to win. If you aim for a macro hatchery, you can use the first 25 energy of your first Queen for a creep tumor if you have a good spot to deny further cannons and help your single spine out, but even that puts you behind until your double hatch production kicks in for the last stand (aka ling bling allin with tons of lings out of a full saturated 1 base)
basically his main goal is to gimp your economy, not your expanding. If you can still manage to get up a full one base economy without much or any delay at all, chances are very good for you being able to kill him.
Ok first off, you need to clean up your attitude. People, including myself, are trying to help you with some suggestions that HAVEN'T even been tested. Is my theorycraft completely stupid? In my opinion, NO. Well is it actually the right response? I don't know. As I stated at the bottom. It's a suggestion that to me makes sense coming from a Protoss POV.
Helpful advice is fine. Theorycrafting something you havent' tested is just a waste. I don't go into Terran or Toss threads telling them what to do, even against zerg. I don't tell people how to hold strats I haven't played against personally. It's really not helpful to hear the same thing posted 10 times because people don't watch the rep or follow the thread. I don't know how many more times I have to hear someone say "just drone drill" when anyone who would say that has clearly never used drone drilling, or else they'd know how much it doesn't work.
i found myself a master player on battle net who read this read as well, and we tried for several hours. Here is what we came up with: your opponent HAS to get a probe in your base and build at least one or two cannons here. If he does not, you just get the spine as soon as your pool finishes, place it on the very edge of the creep, and any baneling all in from here on will win if he tries to take his natural. Since your spine will make life miserable for his wall, he will have to either wall in a greater arc behind it (and lose to banelings), or he will try to take his own natural, but not able to stop your onslaught
so once he commits by cannoning into your main base, you either have to go roaches and/or nydus, since ling/bling won't cut it anymore alone at this point (he will have cannons both above and below the cliff, so your units tend to bug out, and you will most likely lose everything without completely breaking it. And he will just elevator another probe up if necessary). what you should rather not do: - do not chase his probe with drones. Even if you manage to get it, it does cost you too much, since if he is smart there will be a second probe getting to your base the very moment you finally manage to kill the first. Plus, he can always take cover in cannon range - do not build buildings closer to the ramp. Your main Hatch should be save, as the creep keeps cannons away, but a spawning pool next to the hatchery can be targeted. Place important (read: all but spines/extractors) behind your hatchery away from the ramp, preferably behind your mineral line - since you have melee-heavy units and he has ranged buildings, plus he has shields that regenerate, never fight a fight that will be close in any way. If you barely lose it, you just lost yourself the game, as he will regenerate. If you barely win it, you still most probably lost more than you can afford - do not panic and place double or even triple spine crawlers as soon as your pool finishes. It will severely cut into your economy, at which point you are too far behind to have a realistic chance to win. If you aim for a macro hatchery, you can use the first 25 energy of your first Queen for a creep tumor if you have a good spot to deny further cannons and help your single spine out, but even that puts you behind until your double hatch production kicks in for the last stand (aka ling bling allin with tons of lings out of a full saturated 1 base)
Thanks! Mind posting a rep of this in action?
So on maps like Ohana, Toss actually doesn't need a 2nd cannon on the high ground because a spine won't reach, right?
So on maps where Toss puts a 2nd cannon on the high ground, what do you do? Nydus won't ever work. Do you just pump roaches forever or something?
On August 24 2012 20:17 SSVnormandy wrote: . And for the last time, the only reason tournament maps have anti cheese neutral depot is just for the entertainment of viewers so they don't see a 6 min cheesy game.(it could be pretty fun though ) .
Do you have a link to a source where a tournament map maker says neutral depots were added for the entertainment of the viewers?
Just take a look at Nestea vs Byun. No neutral supply depot and Nestea gets bunker blocked and loses because he misclicks once. Alot of people were unhappy with the result. Perfect example of why neutral supply depots are in place.
Ok first off, you need to clean up your attitude. People, including myself, are trying to help you with some suggestions that HAVEN'T even been tested. Is my theorycraft completely stupid? In my opinion, NO. Well is it actually the right response? I don't know. As I stated at the bottom. It's a suggestion that to me makes sense coming from a Protoss POV.
Helpful advice is fine. Theorycrafting something you havent' tested is just a waste. I don't go into Terran or Toss threads telling them what to do, even against zerg. I don't tell people how to hold strats I haven't played against personally. It's really not helpful to hear the same thing posted 10 times because people don't watch the rep or follow the thread. I don't know how many more times I have to hear someone say "just drone drill" when anyone who would say that has clearly never used drone drilling, or else they'd know how much it doesn't work.
i found myself a master player on battle net who read this read as well, and we tried for several hours. Here is what we came up with: your opponent HAS to get a probe in your base and build at least one or two cannons here. If he does not, you just get the spine as soon as your pool finishes, place it on the very edge of the creep, and any baneling all in from here on will win if he tries to take his natural. Since your spine will make life miserable for his wall, he will have to either wall in a greater arc behind it (and lose to banelings), or he will try to take his own natural, but not able to stop your onslaught
so once he commits by cannoning into your main base, you either have to go roaches and/or nydus, since ling/bling won't cut it anymore alone at this point (he will have cannons both above and below the cliff, so your units tend to bug out, and you will most likely lose everything without completely breaking it. And he will just elevator another probe up if necessary). what you should rather not do: - do not chase his probe with drones. Even if you manage to get it, it does cost you too much, since if he is smart there will be a second probe getting to your base the very moment you finally manage to kill the first. Plus, he can always take cover in cannon range - do not build buildings closer to the ramp. Your main Hatch should be save, as the creep keeps cannons away, but a spawning pool next to the hatchery can be targeted. Place important (read: all but spines/extractors) behind your hatchery away from the ramp, preferably behind your mineral line - since you have melee-heavy units and he has ranged buildings, plus he has shields that regenerate, never fight a fight that will be close in any way. If you barely lose it, you just lost yourself the game, as he will regenerate. If you barely win it, you still most probably lost more than you can afford - do not panic and place double or even triple spine crawlers as soon as your pool finishes. It will severely cut into your economy, at which point you are too far behind to have a realistic chance to win. If you aim for a macro hatchery, you can use the first 25 energy of your first Queen for a creep tumor if you have a good spot to deny further cannons and help your single spine out, but even that puts you behind until your double hatch production kicks in for the last stand (aka ling bling allin with tons of lings out of a full saturated 1 base)
Thanks! Mind posting a rep of this in action?
So on maps like Ohana, Toss actually doesn't need a 2nd cannon on the high ground because a spine won't reach, right?
So on maps where Toss puts a 2nd cannon on the high ground, what do you do? Nydus won't ever work. Do you just pump roaches forever or something?
Well guess what my friend? My theorycraft on the whole gimmick worked for this Master Zerg. Just because you get frustrated at others doesn't make it right to take it out on me who is trying to help you out...who watched the replay. He said the same thing I basically said. Don't overreact make a spine...prevent another cannon being built in your base and then from there you need to respond to what you scout with your ovie at his base. Is he committing or is he expanding...from there you react
I'm actually curious as to whether or not the 2 solutions presented thus far are paying off for you, Belial. Any feedback? Granted, this strat is pretty rare on ladder at your MMR, but how about practice games with friends? Have you sat down with someone and ground out a few games on 2 player maps trying the drone patrol vs the overlord warden? I'm just tired of seeing you frustrated by this and tired of all the balance whining this thread seems to have manufactured.
as far as maps go, we only worked on cloud kingdom, so i can't tell for sure on other maps. But as i said, Protoss needs at least one cannon on the high ground. And one cannon is still manageable with Spine + Queen. Then again, what we found out was that if the protoss is no immediate thread (aka threatening to kill your buildings with cannons), you can still safely drone up to max one base drones while getting a macro hatch and a baneling nest. Then with double inject ling production bust the wall, and your ling speed should finish when your lings reach his natural, making the follow-up bust much easier (and your opponent should not be able to put up much of a fight). It only gets iffy with mass mass cannons (so much it can hardly ever be busted), and his outer cannons threatening your important tech structures etc. In this case, we haven't tested if a perfect bust will break it or if you can deal with it using mass roaches (although i doubt that, Roaches are simply not effective enough against his follow-up wall at his natural in my experience)
I don't really want to post replays, since even though we did at least 7 games, we learned from every game. As in every game we improved the cannoning, and every game i tried something slightly different to hold/bust it. Thats why even though the last 3-4 games would probably be the most realistic ones (after we figured out that a small wallin without cannon commitment will not hold long enough for him to secure his natural), they are still not perfect. For example, i only noticed in the very last game the importance of placing my tech structures as far away from cannons as possible. After 6 or 7 cannons, i lost both my pool and macro hatchery (they were not placed offensively, but he closed in with cannons), so this replay will not help you much if at all.
On August 25 2012 01:33 734pot wrote: A protoss gets scouting information by pylon scouting, I dont get scouting information from patrolling a drone at 9
drone to max saturation while getting speed for lings, 1 spine and extra queen for tumors, really just don't panic he delays his build as much as he delays yours. treat it like a cannon rush vs 15hatch first type senario, where basically if he spends more then 200 mins trying to stop you then you just cancle and move to 3rd (or tech up 1 base and then take nat.
well that what i try and have mindset of when you face things like this, techup get speed and a cralwer and extra queen ready for when you do poke down the ramp block, if he reinforces the wall, i sugguest macro hatch and another queen, and take 2nd gas, start upgrades, go lair, get roach warren etc, and basically more he reinforces the more safety you go to tech and upgrade.
Well guess what my friend? My theorycraft on the whole gimmick worked for this Master Zerg. Just because you get frustrated at others doesn't make it right to take it out on me who is trying to help you out...who watched the replay. He said the same thing I basically said. Don't overreact make a spine...prevent another cannon being built in your base and then from there you need to respond to what you scout with your ovie at his base. Is he committing or is he expanding...from there you react
He didn't say the same thing at all.. you recommended nydus, which is what I do in the replay and any non-braindead toss will clearly expect and keep vision of his entire main.
I'm actually curious as to whether or not the 2 solutions presented thus far are paying off for you, Belial. Any feedback? Granted, this strat is pretty rare on ladder at your MMR, but how about practice games with friends? Have you sat down with someone and ground out a few games on 2 player maps trying the drone patrol vs the overlord warden? I'm just tired of seeing you frustrated by this and tired of all the balance whining this thread seems to have manufactured.
- Drone patrol on 9 is too much lost and too far behind. I'll take a few losses instead.
- Sending overlord to natural and then 9 overlord to toss base will result in me getting gas too late vs gateway expand or reacting to a 2 gate too late. Again, I don't see this as a solution.
I'm looking into baneling busting as a solution, though.
Don't use bolded big red text. Not only is it extremely annoying, it's reserved for mod notes.
I feel like it's not as annoying as the repeated posts by people saying things that don't work at all and is bad advice that they've never tested out themselves, or the people who don't watch the rep. I never saw anywhere in the rules that bold/red/big text was not allowed, and I've used such text in my guides. I'll avoid big/bold/red text.
^ The problem is you theorycraft up something you haven't tried or tested. And then, you said things that he didn't say at all, like saying nydus (there's a HUGE difference between having to wait for 100 gas, lair, nydus and 300 gas, than what that guy suggested, just a plain roach bust, like a 3-4 minute difference). As you say-
- if he commits, nydus. This isn't really useful, toss will obviously be on the watch for nydus and will have cannons at his ramp. There is no 'oh then he'll have to delay his econ/tech by more cannons!' because you are doing a 1 base all-in. Toss just holds and is easily ahead, as if he wasn't already.
- if he expands, you say to pressure with roaches. Again, there is no 'oh toss will be put further behind by putting up defense' because you are on 1 base. Toss will have a cannon up and will put a 2nd one up when you bust through his ramp
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ?
I don't think there is anything wrong with 9 worker scouts, because you get valuable scouting information. I personally always 9 drone scout in ZvZ and ZvR.
The problem with patrolling a drone at the ramp from 9-16, is unlike a drone scout, it isn't getting any useful information. If I had sent a drone at 9, I would not scout that Toss had an empty base and was going to ramp block me until my drone was in his base and the wall-in already went up and it'd be too late.
So it's not even close to the same thing... and Toss doesn't necessarily have to scout on 9, they can scout after 13 forge just fine too. And you are getting a large amount of information in regards to what Zerg is going to be doing for the next 10 minutes based on this scout.
Right, okay. For reference, I'm Toss master ~1300, and I hate cheese. So I feel your pain.
That being said, I have watched the replay, and I think you're over dramatic on this issue.
Toss must absolutely place his 10-pylon at your ramp for this to work. You'll agree that if he builds his first pylon anywhere else than your ramp, that cheese does not work. Also, Toss cannot delay placement of this first pylon, because for it to work, this pylon and forge must be placed asap.
This means that the timing during which the pylon is going up is very precise. It's not gonna happen before 1:00, and if after 1:30 there's still no pylon going up, you can be sure he's not cheesing.
If you send a drone and have it scout your ramp around 1:15, you can ensure that if he started his pylon at exactly 1:00, you'll have time to react. Your drone has to stay until 1:30, after that it can go back to mining.
Let's say it takes 10s to get a drone going from the mineral line to your ramp.
This means that in order to be safe and scout it, you have to pull a drone for 10s + 15s + 10s = 35s. You mine 40 minerals per drone per minute, that means you've lost ~25 minerals to scout it. We're far from your claim of 80 minerals.
You may be saying, okay, that's only 25 minerals, but that's assuming I pull back my drone at 1:30. What if he starts his pylon just as my scout leaves ? Well that's where your second overlord comes, sees it, and you still have time to pull a drone or two to prevent him from dropping the forge.
Alternatively, you could send your first overlord to the natural, wait a little bit, and resume its scouting after 1:30. Yeah, you've lost a minute of scouting. But is that so dangerous ? Is there anything Toss could do that would kill you if you hadn't scouted at the normal timing ? I'm not quite sure.
If you see anything wrong with my "theory" or timings, please explain.
Stop complaining about balance and how it does not work in real tournament games.
The fact is you can prevent it even if it puts you behind. There's nothing more to say and you just have to adjust your play style. Yes we know its 80minerals lost and yes we know its not fair/broken.
I countered this successfully 3 times in a row. You have to drone drill with almost all your drones, you must focus the pylon and not the forge, and you MUST not make a pool. Then it is pretty easy if you know on which mineral path you have to clic.
whenever i see someone do this to fitzyhere, he just proxy hatches ftw with the scouting drone. just as amusing since they don't tend to leave much behind to be able to defend.
On August 25 2012 07:52 Belial88 wrote: ^ The problem is you theorycraft up something you haven't tried or tested. And then, you said things that he didn't say at all, like saying nydus (there's a HUGE difference between having to wait for 100 gas, lair, nydus and 300 gas, than what that guy suggested, just a plain roach bust, like a 3-4 minute difference). As you say-
- if he commits, nydus. This isn't really useful, toss will obviously be on the watch for nydus and will have cannons at his ramp. There is no 'oh then he'll have to delay his econ/tech by more cannons!' because you are doing a 1 base all-in. Toss just holds and is easily ahead, as if he wasn't already.
- if he expands, you say to pressure with roaches. Again, there is no 'oh toss will be put further behind by putting up defense' because you are on 1 base. Toss will have a cannon up and will put a 2nd one up when you bust through his ramp
you act like protoss has infinity money because they establish a Nexus at the natural after committing 800+ minerals blocking your ramp that he/she can afford to make a new wall...get tech up...get units out..and get probes out...
I didn't think I had to really go in-depth as I expected a masters player to have enough game knowledge to know this already.
On August 25 2012 08:41 bahunto28 wrote: whenever i see someone do this to fitzyhere, he just proxy hatches ftw with the scouting drone. just as amusing since they don't tend to leave much behind to be able to defend.
If you watched the replay unless fitzy is doing a drone scout at 8 supply (I bet he doesn't) he won't have a drone out by the time his ramp is blocked as was shown in the replay that belial showed.
Well guess what my friend? My theorycraft on the whole gimmick worked for this Master Zerg. Just because you get frustrated at others doesn't make it right to take it out on me who is trying to help you out...who watched the replay. He said the same thing I basically said. Don't overreact make a spine...prevent another cannon being built in your base and then from there you need to respond to what you scout with your ovie at his base. Is he committing or is he expanding...from there you react
He didn't say the same thing at all.. you recommended nydus, which is what I do in the replay and any non-braindead toss will clearly expect and keep vision of his entire main.
I'm actually curious as to whether or not the 2 solutions presented thus far are paying off for you, Belial. Any feedback? Granted, this strat is pretty rare on ladder at your MMR, but how about practice games with friends? Have you sat down with someone and ground out a few games on 2 player maps trying the drone patrol vs the overlord warden? I'm just tired of seeing you frustrated by this and tired of all the balance whining this thread seems to have manufactured.
- Drone patrol on 9 is too much lost and too far behind. I'll take a few losses instead.
- Sending overlord to natural and then 9 overlord to toss base will result in me getting gas too late vs gateway expand or reacting to a 2 gate too late. Again, I don't see this as a solution.
I'm looking into baneling busting as a solution, though.
Don't use bolded big red text. Not only is it extremely annoying, it's reserved for mod notes.
I feel like it's not as annoying as the repeated posts by people saying things that don't work at all and is bad advice that they've never tested out themselves, or the people who don't watch the rep. I never saw anywhere in the rules that bold/red/big text was not allowed, and I've used such text in my guides. I'll avoid big/bold/red text.
"Drone patrol is too much lost and too far behind." Ok so losing some minerals is worse than losing the game? Splendid logic you have there. Not to mention guess what, the protoss is losing mining time too! Wow, fucking amazing. Third off, if you hold this, you win. EZ. Yet instead you'll just complain that it's imba, bullshit, and that blizzard should fix it. Because you'll take the few loses instead of losing 80 minerals.
I faced this before and actually have done it before (1300 masters protoss and zerg).
It it easy to stop. Just let him do his thing (dont pull drones!), secure yourself with a spine and queen, and tech to 1 base muta. By him investing 500+ minerals and delaying his expansion and tech, there is no way for him to have enough. I check the timing in the replay, and at around 10 minutes, he has 2 sentries and 1 stalker - not enough to prevent losing half his workers.
I tried to find a replay, but being as uncommon as it is, I couldn't find one recently. Sorry
On August 25 2012 09:11 Swagtacular wrote: I faced this before and actually have done it before (1300 masters protoss and zerg).
It it easy to stop. Just let him do his thing (dont pull drones!), secure yourself with a spine and queen, and tech to 1 base muta. By him investing 500+ minerals and delaying his expansion and tech, there is no way for him to have enough. I check the timing in the replay, and at around 10 minutes, he has 2 sentries and 1 stalker - not enough to prevent losing half his workers.
it should not work against a good protoss. he can do a delayed 4G at the bottom of your ramp and then you are dead.
On August 25 2012 09:11 Swagtacular wrote: I faced this before and actually have done it before (1300 masters protoss and zerg).
It it easy to stop. Just let him do his thing (dont pull drones!), secure yourself with a spine and queen, and tech to 1 base muta. By him investing 500+ minerals and delaying his expansion and tech, there is no way for him to have enough. I check the timing in the replay, and at around 10 minutes, he has 2 sentries and 1 stalker - not enough to prevent losing half his workers.
it should not work against a good protoss. he can do a delayed 4G at the bottom of your ramp and then you are dead.
On August 25 2012 09:11 Swagtacular wrote: I faced this before and actually have done it before (1300 masters protoss and zerg).
It it easy to stop. Just let him do his thing (dont pull drones!), secure yourself with a spine and queen, and tech to 1 base muta. By him investing 500+ minerals and delaying his expansion and tech, there is no way for him to have enough. I check the timing in the replay, and at around 10 minutes, he has 2 sentries and 1 stalker - not enough to prevent losing half his workers.
it should not work against a good protoss. he can do a delayed 4G at the bottom of your ramp and then you are dead.
sorry forgot to add scout with an overlord.
And how can you survive ? you are stuck on 1 base and he can mass units from 4G
On August 25 2012 09:11 Swagtacular wrote: I faced this before and actually have done it before (1300 masters protoss and zerg).
It it easy to stop. Just let him do his thing (dont pull drones!), secure yourself with a spine and queen, and tech to 1 base muta. By him investing 500+ minerals and delaying his expansion and tech, there is no way for him to have enough. I check the timing in the replay, and at around 10 minutes, he has 2 sentries and 1 stalker - not enough to prevent losing half his workers.
it should not work against a good protoss. he can do a delayed 4G at the bottom of your ramp and then you are dead.
sorry forgot to add scout with an overlord.
And how can you survive ? you are stuck on 1 base and he can mass units from 4G
many ways: 1. spines 2. many lings 3. roaches with some queen support. mixture of the 3 is best Just standard ways to hold a 4 gate
On August 25 2012 09:11 Swagtacular wrote: I faced this before and actually have done it before (1300 masters protoss and zerg).
It it easy to stop. Just let him do his thing (dont pull drones!), secure yourself with a spine and queen, and tech to 1 base muta. By him investing 500+ minerals and delaying his expansion and tech, there is no way for him to have enough. I check the timing in the replay, and at around 10 minutes, he has 2 sentries and 1 stalker - not enough to prevent losing half his workers.
it should not work against a good protoss. he can do a delayed 4G at the bottom of your ramp and then you are dead.
sorry forgot to add scout with an overlord.
And how can you survive ? you are stuck on 1 base and he can mass units from 4G
many ways: 1. spines 2. many lings 3. roaches with some queen support. mixture of the 3 is best Just standard ways to hold a 4 gate
But you are still stuck on 1 base... You will never get an expand and protoss army on 1 base is better then zerg army on 1 base.
On August 25 2012 09:11 Swagtacular wrote: I faced this before and actually have done it before (1300 masters protoss and zerg).
It it easy to stop. Just let him do his thing (dont pull drones!), secure yourself with a spine and queen, and tech to 1 base muta. By him investing 500+ minerals and delaying his expansion and tech, there is no way for him to have enough. I check the timing in the replay, and at around 10 minutes, he has 2 sentries and 1 stalker - not enough to prevent losing half his workers.
it should not work against a good protoss. he can do a delayed 4G at the bottom of your ramp and then you are dead.
sorry forgot to add scout with an overlord.
And how can you survive ? you are stuck on 1 base and he can mass units from 4G
many ways: 1. spines 2. many lings 3. roaches with some queen support. mixture of the 3 is best Just standard ways to hold a 4 gate
But you are still stuck on 1 base... You will never get an expand and protoss army on 1 base is better then zerg army on 1 base.
You can hold a four gate on 1 base. When you hold a standard four gate you really don't drone your natural anyway. Also you can make a macro hatch if you think that larva is the issue. I don't want to cram up this post with conversation, so pm me on TL or in starcraft if you want more help. Swagtacular.611
^ You hold a 4 gate with your natural because if you hold, you are way ahead due to having your natural, and the ability to deny Toss' natural with roach/ling, for a long time. Also, those drones at the natural provide a HUGE income boost, you have 16 workers in your main and then about 10 in your natural, which is more than double the income of 30 workers on 1 base. And, because of the natural choke, you can rely on spines, which make 4 gate a million times easier to hold.
If you try to hold a 4 gate on 1 base, it will be MUCH harder (i dont even think it's possible, but I'll hold off on that absolute, you also can't use a spine which makes 4 gates much easier to hold too, but not necessarily needed) to hold, not to mention, you will have zero ability to capitalize on holding, whereas when taking your nat with a standard 4 gate defense, you just win the game because Toss won't be able to take his natural for forever.
Please provide a replay where Zerg holds a 4 gate on 1 base though. I can't believe that's possible, or that Zerg would end up ahead if he did end up holding (although I doubt he could).
EDIT FINAL: Let me preface this by admitting I don't know the best way to deal with this once it's already up, and I believe your complaining and frustration is warranted, but you're complaining for all the wrong reasons. If this was an OP build, this is not a good replay example to illustrate such. If you play and lose against it again but don't make the same huge mistakes you made in this one, that would be a better example. I'm not harping on you for making these mistakes, I would have too in your situation. I just don't like how you're basically whining and nothing more.
damn belial you really went full-retard on this one. stop bitching and actually think about solutions to this problem. First of all, your overlord saw the pylon and you didnt do fuck all about it. I guess he would have been able to place the forge down anyway but you didn't even try. 2nd, you placed down a pool and I don't know what possessed you to think this was a good idea. yeah lets throw away 200 minerals and not have enough to build another drone! He doesn't have a gateway, he doesn't have a nexus, he doesn't have anything! drone drilling would have been the right call here and you tried to do that but stumbled around and shit. Even if you lose 1200 minerals of mining time you're fine in this case. you can go 4 hatch before pool if you want! he can't do fuck all to you for like 5 minutes. Honestly this post is ridiculously mellow-dramatic and I feel as though you're just angry that this worked against you. Had I been faced with this problem I probably would have lost the game too just because of in-experience. What I wouldn't have done was declare it unbeatable based only on the fact that I didn't destroy it my first time.
EDIT: just watched the rest of the game and the whole thing was just ridiculous I mean you probably weren't going to win anyway but some of the decisions you made were just way out there. You built a nydus and didn't even try anything with it, you throw mass amounts of units at that one pylon powering 3 canons. Get some sleep, cool down, then think about figuring out some solutions
EDIT 2: you also accidentally researched drop which I find hilarious. lets spend 400 gas and do literally nothing with it. (drop and nydus) the sad part about all this is, had you commited to one path, you could have very well taken or at least evened up the game.
EDIT 3: reading through this thread I see a couple more solutions such as scouting your ramp at about 11. I see no problem with this, you lose roughly 10 minerals or so and you only need to look at it for a quick second to verify nothing is there. The only thing bad about it would be that it's just one more thing to remember every single game which kinda sucks but that's life. So even if drone drill is totally fucked on this map, you can still scout it out in time to just plant your drone there if hes building a pylon.
On August 25 2012 10:50 Belial88 wrote: ^ You hold a 4 gate with your natural because if you hold, you are way ahead due to having your natural, and the ability to deny Toss' natural with roach/ling, for a long time. Also, those drones at the natural provide a HUGE income boost, you have 16 workers in your main and then about 10 in your natural, which is more than double the income of 30 workers on 1 base. And, because of the natural choke, you can rely on spines, which make 4 gate a million times easier to hold.
If you try to hold a 4 gate on 1 base, it will be MUCH harder (i dont even think it's possible, but I'll hold off on that absolute, you also can't use a spine which makes 4 gates much easier to hold too, but not necessarily needed) to hold, not to mention, you will have zero ability to capitalize on holding, whereas when taking your nat with a standard 4 gate defense, you just win the game because Toss won't be able to take his natural for forever.
Please provide a replay where Zerg holds a 4 gate on 1 base though. I can't believe that's possible, or that Zerg would end up ahead if he did end up holding (although I doubt he could).
On August 25 2012 11:25 nickyboy909 wrote: damn belial you really went full-retard on this one. stop bitching and actually think about solutions to this problem. First of all, your overlord saw the pylon and you didnt do fuck all about it. I guess he would have been able to place the forge down anyway but you didn't even try. 2nd, you placed down a pool and I don't know what possessed you to think this was a good idea. yeah lets throw away 200 minerals and not have enough to build another drone! He doesn't have a gateway, he doesn't have a nexus, he doesn't have anything! drone drilling would have been the right call here and you tried to do that but stumbled around and shit. Even if you lose 1200 minerals of mining time you're fine in this case. you can go 4 hatch before pool if you want! he can't do fuck all to you for like 5 minutes. Honestly this post is ridiculously mellow-dramatic and I feel as though you're just angry that this worked against you. Had I been faced with this problem I probably would have lost the game too just because of in-experience. What I wouldn't have done was declare it unbeatable based only on the fact that I didn't destroy it my first time.
EDIT: just watched the rest of the game and the whole thing was just ridiculous I mean you probably weren't going to win anyway but some of the decisions you made were just way out there. You built a nydus and didn't even try anything with it, you throw mass amounts of units at that one pylon powering 3 canons. Get some sleep, cool down, then think about figuring out some solutions
I really don't understand your logic. You'r saying that even though hes trapped on 1base, he shouldn't have built a pool. Instead, he should have continued to drone drill, even though the protoss can easily rewall even if Belial had executed it better. In which case, you'd be 1base, with a heap of drones, no pool, and banking minerals due to the original plan to triple expo. I suggest you re-read over the thread and try to follow the various solutions people have given Belial, rather than claim that drone drilling will work after its been disproved so many times already in this thread.
hit me up in PM and we can talk, I think there is a lot of room for exploration with this.
here was one reaction I had when it happened to me:
but I think you can react many ways and still be fine, most notably 1 being fast infestors and then just taking your bases after (because a protoss pushing into 6-7 infestors with full energy is just suicide.
On August 25 2012 11:25 nickyboy909 wrote: damn belial you really went full-retard on this one. stop bitching and actually think about solutions to this problem. First of all, your overlord saw the pylon and you didnt do fuck all about it. I guess he would have been able to place the forge down anyway but you didn't even try. 2nd, you placed down a pool and I don't know what possessed you to think this was a good idea. yeah lets throw away 200 minerals and not have enough to build another drone! He doesn't have a gateway, he doesn't have a nexus, he doesn't have anything! drone drilling would have been the right call here and you tried to do that but stumbled around and shit. Even if you lose 1200 minerals of mining time you're fine in this case. you can go 4 hatch before pool if you want! he can't do fuck all to you for like 5 minutes. Honestly this post is ridiculously mellow-dramatic and I feel as though you're just angry that this worked against you. Had I been faced with this problem I probably would have lost the game too just because of in-experience. What I wouldn't have done was declare it unbeatable based only on the fact that I didn't destroy it my first time.
EDIT: just watched the rest of the game and the whole thing was just ridiculous I mean you probably weren't going to win anyway but some of the decisions you made were just way out there. You built a nydus and didn't even try anything with it, you throw mass amounts of units at that one pylon powering 3 canons. Get some sleep, cool down, then think about figuring out some solutions
I really don't understand your logic. You'r saying that even though hes trapped on 1base, he shouldn't have built a pool. Instead, he should have continued to drone drill, even though the protoss can easily rewall even if Belial had executed it better. In which case, you'd be 1base, with a heap of drones, no pool, and banking minerals due to the original plan to triple expo. I suggest you re-read over the thread and try to follow the various solutions people have given Belial, rather than claim that drone drilling will work after its been disproved so many times already in this thread.
ah well the point of my post was just telling him hes overreacting a bit here that's all. I'd rather have made another hatchery instead of a pool, but getting a pool in that situation could have worked. I just feel like belial is blaming all the wrong things for his loss. He drone drilled for a LONG time to no avail, thus if he had stayed mining he would be in a much better spot. Let's say he never drone drilled and then did everything else normal. Now he has much more at his disposal. He can get a much faster lair, nydus and w.e. he wants. He just made so many mistakes that had nothing to do with the ramp block that It just makes it seem as if this post is pretty bad overall.
but I think you can react many ways and still be fine, most notably 1 being fast infestors and then just taking your bases after (because a protoss pushing into 6-7 infestors with full energy is just suicide.
this thread is not about the 3-pylon wall! that's been addressed many times D:
^ I think his reaction could be used though. I'm not sure how proper that reaction is though, that toss wayyyy overreacted to everything. reinforcing the wall-in at the natural, and making more than 1 pylon 1 cannon for each hatch.
On August 25 2012 11:25 nickyboy909 wrote: damn belial you really went full-retard on this one. stop bitching and actually think about solutions to this problem. First of all, your overlord saw the pylon and you didnt do fuck all about it. I guess he would have been able to place the forge down anyway but you didn't even try. 2nd, you placed down a pool and I don't know what possessed you to think this was a good idea. yeah lets throw away 200 minerals and not have enough to build another drone! He doesn't have a gateway, he doesn't have a nexus, he doesn't have anything! drone drilling would have been the right call here and you tried to do that but stumbled around and shit. Even if you lose 1200 minerals of mining time you're fine in this case. you can go 4 hatch before pool if you want! he can't do fuck all to you for like 5 minutes. Honestly this post is ridiculously mellow-dramatic and I feel as though you're just angry that this worked against you. Had I been faced with this problem I probably would have lost the game too just because of in-experience. What I wouldn't have done was declare it unbeatable based only on the fact that I didn't destroy it my first time.
EDIT: just watched the rest of the game and the whole thing was just ridiculous I mean you probably weren't going to win anyway but some of the decisions you made were just way out there. You built a nydus and didn't even try anything with it, you throw mass amounts of units at that one pylon powering 3 canons. Get some sleep, cool down, then think about figuring out some solutions
I really don't understand your logic. You'r saying that even though hes trapped on 1base, he shouldn't have built a pool. Instead, he should have continued to drone drill, even though the protoss can easily rewall even if Belial had executed it better. In which case, you'd be 1base, with a heap of drones, no pool, and banking minerals due to the original plan to triple expo. I suggest you re-read over the thread and try to follow the various solutions people have given Belial, rather than claim that drone drilling will work after its been disproved so many times already in this thread.
ah well the point of my post was just telling him hes overreacting a bit here that's all. I'd rather have made another hatchery instead of a pool, but getting a pool in that situation could have worked. I just feel like belial is blaming all the wrong things for his loss. He drone drilled for a LONG time to no avail, thus if he had stayed mining he would be in a much better spot. Let's say he never drone drilled and then did everything else normal. Now he has much more at his disposal. He can get a much faster lair, nydus and w.e. he wants. He just made so many mistakes that had nothing to do with the ramp block that It just makes it seem as if this post is pretty bad overall.
I agree that he could possibly be overreacting, he does seem at least slightly emotionally invested in this, as most would after being rushed and not knowing the solution. He does make a lot of mistakes in the replay, but its pretty clear he doesn't know how to deal with the strategy. All the posts of his I've read in this thread don't really seem that hes claiming imbalance but rather trying to find a decent possibility in stopping this rush, thus I don't think hes overreacting that much personally.
Strategy-wise, I personally think that a pool is a much better decision in this case. The pool is whats going to allow you to eventually break the walloff, whether its through roaches, banelings, or spines/queens. Getting the hatchery earlier might mean more drones, but I think its more correct to prioritize getting that second base up as soon as possible, instead of having extra drones that early (You could get the macro hatch up right after the pool, or after a spine if you still believe the extra larvae can help, could be good to test out!). I personally believe that this thread should be more about discussing what the correct response is after getting the pool up, as its pretty clear that early scouts or ramp patrols are a bit excessive in the mining time you'll lose that early. Sure, patrolling the ramp can stop the block from happening, but if thats not what they're going for, you're automatically behind.
Edit: Just saw the video Llama posted. Even though its vs a 3 pylon block, its a similar strategy and we can consider mutalisks as a possibility. However, we won't have any drones out on the map unless we're scouting super early. This means we cant cause the protoss to overreact to stop us from getting a 2nd base up. This could mean the protoss won't be delayed enough for such a strategy to work. Also, mutas require a fair amount of gas, so playing off 1base could be a problem with such a build. Its really a question of if the protoss is delaying his army enough to allow us to hit a strong timing, which at the very least can negate the damage we'll take earlier on if he does the forge/pylon block.
you should have just kept mining and gotten a pool asap. you reacted quite late after you had vision of the pylon and you tried to drone drill a forge which was never going to work. not only that but you only pulled ~6 drones at first then pulled a lot more later which just made things worse. you should know that if a pylon is finished at your ramp at that timing he sent a probe insanely early (you will see a standard 9 probe scout after pylon at your ramp w/ your 2nd OL).
if you just insta made a pool and kept mining, you could have had roaches out by 4:30. at 4:30 he has 1 cannon on the high ground, 1 cannon on the low ground, nothing reinforcing the wall and he's planting his nexus. so at that point he would have had to decide whether to reinforce his wall OR to expand. he can't do both. your OL sees his natural so if you saw a nexus you would know you can just pump roaches for an easy win. if he reinforces his wall, you still have a decent chance at busting through and even if you don't, his nexus is going to be delayed enough for you to be close to even footing.
Honestly, in any real tournament there are lowered supply depots for a reason. In ladder you can just drone drill and win. The amount of money they put in isn't worth it if you drone drill it.
On August 25 2012 13:27 HighLach wrote: Honestly, in any real tournament there are lowered supply depots for a reason. In ladder you can just drone drill and win. The amount of money they put in isn't worth it if you drone drill it.
Have you read the original post? Drone drilling is not a good option due to the massive amount of mining time lost.
While I know my video is not the same situation, you still need to react the same to a block. DO NOT PANIC
you panicked. You pulled your drones, tried to drone drill, went for the 1 base all in, etc...
This is completely unnecessary.
Here is what you do when he does this 1. throw down your pool. 2. build a spine immediately. He now cannot threaten you or honestly even get another cannon up on the high ground (even with his glitch) so he'll have to reinforce behind 3. get a queen, spread creep with her first inject 4. 2nd queen after first queen 5. double gas 6. macro hatch/evo chambers 7. tech to lair with first 100 gas 8. get infestors 9. start +1/+1 upgrades for lings 10. his block should be broken with ur spine/queen combo. If he didn't reinforce behind, you should've taken ur natural and 3rd when you could. If he did reinforce, use a mix of lings, your spine, your queens, and infested terrans to kill off the cannons (doesn't take a ton). Take 2nd and 3rd after this (it really won't be too long) 11. transfer drones when hatches finish and you'll be very well saturated. 12. you're actually even now if not ahead because of his investment and you have infestors with full energy so he can't pressure you without getting fungaled to death
Usually what I do is take the inevitable loss in stride and just wait for Blizzard to actually implement neutral depos. I'm guessing that's not the kind of answer you're looking for, though. If I recall correctly, you need a drone to patrol block, a drone to do your regular scout and a drone to either follow the scouting probe or check where it's been to make sure he didn't drop anything bad for you. There really isn't much else you can do. Mostly, I would recommend the "taking the losses in stride" strategy, because otherwise you're just in for a world of rage. It's an imbalanced strategy. There's no way around that simple fact. It's damn near an auto-loss if it does happen and even if it doesn't, the very act of preventing it takes a good bit out of your early-game economy.
umm i would probably go for some kind of 1base roach all in, with speed. i have a replay to show what happened but its EU so if you have a eu account go for it. if not i have a casted version after i watched replay it was actually a cannon rush but do talk about pylon blocks at the end of the video
Okay. Instead of drone patrolling, why not send out a drone at the appropriate time to check for the pylon? Similar to a protoss who doesn't scout till ~16 supply in PvP but scouts base for proxy/cheese, if you want to win all your BO1s you can't be optimal in the same sense you would want to be in tournaments. That or you take the bigger risk and don't scout it and if you encounter it, take a breather and leave. Cheese is cheese, it doesn't make you a better player and unless it becomes popularized in pro play, you won't see it significantly often on ladder and as a result, you aren't significantly affected (other than being emotionally invested like this instance). There are inconvenient steps you must take in ladder, this seems to be one of them, albeit a smaller window of variable response time.
EDIT: for disambiguity, I'm not saying to patrol your drone. Check for it at the time it comes, not mindlessly stick it there for 2 minutes.
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
Pylon-Wallin is pretty much a auto loss for zerg, if the Protoss doesnt mess up massively. Even Scarlet told (forgot at what tournament it was) Blizzard to implement neutral supply-depots like in every good sc2-tournament on earth because of the pylon-wallin ruining her ladder-practice. Btw. all the advices like: 1. drone scout 2. early pool 3. hold position on drone are pretty worthless. 14 pool doesnt do shit against the wallin, drone scout is too late and also doesnt tell you anything except for the case that protoss goes nexus first. And the drone on hold-position does work, of cause, but sending one drone scout, one hold-position-drone AND a drone for fast expansion hurts your economy massively and gives the protoss a headstart as well. And then there is the possibility for the protoss to just put down a pylon an natural hatch (like to block it from being build) and then start adding cannons, pylons or even a gateway. Even a instant pull of pretty much all drones and the lings that are being built may very well lose to it. But thats beside the topic. So back on topic!
Mistakes the Protoss can do after walling in the zerg: - overcommit and build a thousand cannons and pylons all over the place like in the video - not scouting every single base on the map for hidden hatches - not scouting every single corner of his base for nydus-play - not having at least 2 sentries and 1 or 2 cannons in his natural und avoid roach or banelings-busts - not scouting for zerg-tech as fast as possible
Those mistakes can be easily avoided and therefore zerg-allin of any kind shouldnt work at all. And a macro game simply is not winnable from that position. Any decent Protoss should win after that.
So the question is, why isnt Blizzard implementing the neutral supply-depot on ladder? I think the answer is that they want as much active starcraft 2 players as possible. And there are a lot of people out there that have no interest in playing a good game or let the better player win. They want easy wins, without investing time or energy in learning something new or become better with it. The Pylon-Wallin is the most easy to execute strategie out there and at the same time a mindblowing strong one. Because no matter what Protoss does during the cannoning. If he does it right, he will win the game with it. Its a stupid feature, but its a feature a certain kind of player wants and needs to be sccessful and therefore blizzard keeps things as it is. I think things like that ruin the game. At least they do for me.
On August 25 2012 10:50 Belial88 wrote: ^ You hold a 4 gate with your natural because if you hold, you are way ahead due to having your natural, and the ability to deny Toss' natural with roach/ling, for a long time. Also, those drones at the natural provide a HUGE income boost, you have 16 workers in your main and then about 10 in your natural, which is more than double the income of 30 workers on 1 base. And, because of the natural choke, you can rely on spines, which make 4 gate a million times easier to hold.
If you try to hold a 4 gate on 1 base, it will be MUCH harder (i dont even think it's possible, but I'll hold off on that absolute, you also can't use a spine which makes 4 gates much easier to hold too, but not necessarily needed) to hold, not to mention, you will have zero ability to capitalize on holding, whereas when taking your nat with a standard 4 gate defense, you just win the game because Toss won't be able to take his natural for forever.
Please provide a replay where Zerg holds a 4 gate on 1 base though. I can't believe that's possible, or that Zerg would end up ahead if he did end up holding (although I doubt he could).
I see stuff. Dont overreact. Scout. See 1 base = roaches. Hold 4 gate easily. Win
He puts 2 more canon but it was not needed and he didn't build gateway at the bottom of your ramp. He wasted at least 300 mineral (maybe 450 because protoss doesn't have to put a canon until you build zerglings). You hold the 4 gate because he allowed you to spread creep and put 3 spine crawler at the bottom of you ramp, protoss should never let you destroy his wall.
My previous theorycrafting got overlooked, so I'll try again:
Im only a diamond n00b, but a question here: With such an opening, toss isnt really that economical. His follow up could be either a FE, or agression. What if you go quick nydus, into expand (bypassing the wall). If toss does a FE, he cant really punish you for it, if he goes agression he 's on even footing as far as economy goes (and it might be possible to defend an expand with spines and slings?)
E.g. you get walled in, nydus you 3rd, exp, spine down the wall from above @ the natural, and then take your natural?
Powerdrone, get a spine to break wall, put up expo at nat and 3rd while not doing anything other than massdroning until you got 70-80? What's he gonna followup with? He did at least spend 450 minerals early on delaying himself alot aswell, and he wont be able to get agressive for a long time.. What happens if u just play greedy?
On August 27 2012 17:25 gronnelg wrote: My previous theorycrafting got overlooked, so I'll try again:
Im only a diamond n00b, but a question here: With such an opening, toss isnt really that economical. His follow up could be either a FE, or agression. What if you go quick nydus, into expand (bypassing the wall). If toss does a FE, he cant really punish you for it, if he goes agression he 's on even footing as far as economy goes (and it might be possible to defend an expand with spines and slings?)
E.g. you get walled in, nydus you 3rd, exp, spine down the wall from above @ the natural, and then take your natural?
I dont think that theres something called a "quick" nydus. 100 gas for Lair, 200 gas for nydus and 150 gas for the worm. I dont know the build time for everything, but it just takes too long to get that hatch up to make use of it in time of a gateway attack imo.
My only thought of this is that a change is needed on the maps where this is possible.
Possible solutions got buried again, so I'm going to try one last time.
Note: These solutions are only necessary for 2 player maps.
1) Drone scout your ramp at 9. You do not have to patrol your drone for a long time, if at all. You just need to scout the pylon at your ramp if it's there, timing your scout such that a) you'll be able to react if he throws down the earliest possible 10pylon before it's done, and b) there is no 25 second gap between your drone scout of your ramp and your 9 overlord getting vision of your ramp. Someone else already calculated this to be a 20-25 mineral loss, not an 80 mineral loss.
2) Send your first overlord over your own natural before sending it to your opponent's base, and make sure to keep it around long enough to see a super early probe coming to your natural. You should still be able to overlord scout your opponent earlier than on 4 player maps, where your first overlord doesn't scout them first 2/3 of the time.
All the theorycraft / testing for dealing with the wall-in once it has occurred is nice, but people have come up with these two simple changes to one's opening which should make one safe from the wall-in ever occurring.
Just expanding on someone's idea that I liked and hasn't been discussed a lot - I haven't tested it but it seems viable for several reasons I'll discuss. I think one of strengths of this build for toss is that it forces early misuse of larva; this specifically tries to eliminate that and avoid getting behind.
Macro hatch close to the ramp for quick creep spread. This allows you to avoid using early queen energy on a creep tumor when you can gain much more benefit from an inject. Get a spine up as soon as your pool finishes and move it to the top of the ramp. Get another queen, chip away at the pylons. Drone this entire time and immediately tech to lair and get an overseer in his base to see everything he does for the next 5 minutes basically (super delayed warp gate means not nearly enough stalkers to kill an overseer). Also get ling speed with your next 100 gas. I am thinking now you want to go up to 4 queens so you have at least one transfuse while constantly injecting, and depending on how many cannons, get lings out (only if necessary) and clear out your expo. If you think you can kill all cannons with 3-4 queens + a spine + a transfuse, do this and spend all larva on drones. If there's one cannon you can probably kill it with a spine and 2 queens much earlier on.
If you're behind at this point then this strategy isn't viable I guess, but I feel like as long as you use all the larva from two hatches for drones, it would be hard to be behind even with the delayed expo. This also gives you a significant scouting advantage going into mid game and keeps the toss on edge for an all in since he can't see what you're doing except knows you're on lair and is probably paranoid about a nydus.
If the toss goes stargate, you can defend with queens and spores and take your third and go up to 80 drones and use some speedlings to deny third most likely. If the toss does some form of 2 base all-in, which I think is most likely, you can just pick your choice of lair tech and build spines to defend (personally I'd go hydra).
what if the zerg goes immediately for both gases, and straight to 6-7 roach nydus? not the main, but third. it comes around 7:30. i dont see how u can stop that if u go FFE. 2 cannons and 2 sentries dont cut it
if you scout it in time with quick check top ramp at 9 it's protoss player who will autoloose ! this action cost you 10 mineral at most! So it's fine and easy to counter this build. Stop whine about this cheese ! it's a total all in okay we get it ! if it is in place it could be hard to win as a zerg , above all it piss off zerg players but it's so easy to counter that you should just get used to make that ridiculous timing scout. end of story. If you don't do that you are like player that don't check in PvP for canon rush/ proxy gate you take a risk it's your choice.
Should watch the replay before saying anything.
Your insult is also just stupid because it is true that pylon wallin should be on ladder. Zerg should not have to have a drone on hold position on the ramp until your spawning pool is done just so you don't get an auto loss.
Another thing the 3 pylon wall is not an auto loss for protoss if it fails. They just cancel the pylons if they can't get them up or whatever, get most of their money back and start their nexus. The tech and nexus are a little late but it is far from an auto loss to protoss. The fact you think that is very laughable.
Your insult is also just stupid because it is true that pylon wallin should be on ladder. Zerg should not have to have a drone on hold position on the ramp until your spawning pool is done just so you don't get an auto loss.
Another thing the 3 pylon wall is not an auto loss for protoss if it fails. They just cancel the pylons if they can't get them up or whatever, get most of their money back and start their nexus. The tech and nexus are a little late but it is far from an auto loss to protoss. The fact you think that is very laughable.
you should watch the replay too and know that the topic is about 9 pylon 10 forge to block your ramp and not about 3 pylon block that is less allinish. So i agree easily with your saying and i never talked about that whatever. My purpose is that 9 pylon 10 forge is auto loose for protoss if properly scouted by the zerg. (you prevent the probe to make the forge throw down a pool and win ) and you loose maximum 20 mineral or so doing this kind of quick scout up the ramp as protoss does sometimes when they fear canon rush. (the timing of this quick scout is about 10 drone)
if you want so bad talk about 3 pylon block i think there is also a reflexion to make about optimizing your patrolling drone as there is also a timing range you know that this thing can be coming and you can optimize the time of your patrolling drone too.
So let me advice you three things !
1) read the topic
2) watch the replay
3) try to read people's writing before criticizing it or at least if you don't know what they are talking about don't say a thing or ask for precision so you won't make misinterpretation + anger + insult
Thanks blue man and i advice you to think long and hard before speaking next time
Edit : the end is maybe a little bit trolly and i apologize for that but as french expression tell this so well
"qui sème le vent récolte la tempête"
"Whosoever sows the wind shall reap the whirlwind"
Edit 2 : the reason i get angry last post is because people troll without looking about options discussed in this topic that are good so far imo.
if you scout it in time with quick check top ramp at 9 it's protoss player who will autoloose ! this action cost you 10 mineral at most! So it's fine and easy to counter this build. Stop whine about this cheese ! it's a total all in okay we get it ! if it is in place it could be hard to win as a zerg , above all it piss off zerg players but it's so easy to counter that you should just get used to make that ridiculous timing scout. end of story. If you don't do that you are like player that don't check in PvP for canon rush/ proxy gate you take a risk it's your choice.
Your insult is also just stupid because it is true that pylon wallin should be on ladder. Zerg should not have to have a drone on hold position on the ramp until your spawning pool is done just so you don't get an auto loss.
Another thing the 3 pylon wall is not an auto loss for protoss if it fails. They just cancel the pylons if they can't get them up or whatever, get most of their money back and start their nexus. The tech and nexus are a little late but it is far from an auto loss to protoss. The fact you think that is very laughable.
you should watch the replay too and know that the topic is about 9 pylon 10 forge to block your ramp and not about 3 pylon block that is less allinish.
...
You make a reply on pylon-wallin and then complain about that it's not the topic when someone replys to you?
On August 29 2012 17:28 SSVnormandy wrote: 3) try to read people's writing before criticizing it or at least if you don't know what they are talking about don't say a thing or ask for precision so you won't make misinterpretation + anger + insult
Also, it can be pretty easy to missunderstand your posts since you do not care about formatting your posts in a way that makes it clear what you are talking about.
sorry about this confusion but Pylon wall-in could be easily misinterpretred as the strategy we were discussing in this thread is a kind of pylon wall-in also. If people could just talk about the main subject in such forum and not disgress everytime we could advance and discuss of solutions.
and btw the thread of this guy was so obtuse mind like "all your solutions are shit and there is no discussion to have about that because this kind of strat shouldn't exist"
Btw. all the advices like: 1. drone scout 2. early pool 3. hold position on drone are pretty worthless.
i should have maybe quote another angry zerg sorry for that. But actually i'm trying with other reasonable people in this thread to make you understand that this allin can be countered with an optimal way that doesn't hurt zerg economy much so I invite every people in this thread to think about that and not trolling everytime !
i will remove my angry post from above
Also, it can be pretty easy to missunderstand your posts since you do not care about formatting your posts in a way that makes it clear what you are talking about.
Also it's kind of obvious that when i talk about 9 scout timing up your ramp it's about 9 pylon 10 forge as this timing of scout have absolutely no sense vs a 3 pylon block that appear at 17 probe timing at minimum
Why don't you just send the overlord along the probe path to your ramp? Eg in Cloud Kingdom send your Overlord pass your Natural rocks first then towards Protoss expansion. Your overlord will pass the probe at your natural rocks if Protoss send 1/6 starting probes. If you see it just pull a drone to deny the Forge from going down and another to chase the probe.
Just did this. So fun and easy if you caught zerg unprepared.
On August 29 2012 22:32 samuraibael wrote: I managed to get walled in even with a drone blocking. Apparently you also have to micro it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J7pkewgtZw
that probe was 1 hit away from dying He then proceeded to plant down like 1k minerals of buildings lol. Also this is a different type of ramp block than the OP.
On August 29 2012 22:32 samuraibael wrote: I managed to get walled in even with a drone blocking. Apparently you also have to micro it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J7pkewgtZw
Your pool finished a long time ago but you never started 4 lings. And you never blocked it, you never hit hold or patrol. While an enemy worker will block buildings, it's better to use hold or patrol in case he attacks you, as a drone will move if it's attacked when not on hold or patrol.
That's why you lost there ;/
If you are lower level, you should patrol 1 drone while a 2nd drone takes the hatch (or tries to). Make sure to patrol the drone out a bit, since where buildings are planted is actually a little bit out from the ramp (if that makes sense...). What I do is pull 2 workers for the scouting probe, one on a-move, the other to take the hatch and block the front of the probe. If I see him go for the ramp I'm quick enough to move the drone to the ramp, and many times I've had toss attempt to ramp block and I'll see it. This takes about 200 apm but I manage it fine. Here's a rep example:
Just ignore the troll blade. What a douchebag to be insulting a blue like that. I stopped caring a long time ago what he had to say.
Thanks MrLama, that was a very informative video! A real practical solution to the problem, I like it.
Do you think you were ahead or behind though? You said that Toss was ahead in workers at one point, and if Toss played a very straight-forward robo expand, I think he would have been way ahead of you. Yea, okay, every single Toss who is going to ramp block is going to do some sort of all-in (voids or blink) into DT, so maybe I don't have to worry about that, but just saying ;/
I'd like to see the rep of it, see maybe who's ahead in it. Or a better picture of who is ahead. Seemed like you just countered his build, that's how it looked so easy, but it seemed like he could have been ahead if he wasn't such a moron.
On a side note, I really liked ling/baneling bust all-in as a response to this. I played Toss on ladder for a while, trying to find a zerg to do it too (i found 10 t/p first, dropped my MMR by 300 points tt), and he responded by simply by not pulling drones against it (like you advise), and busted out with 2 spines, and then did a ling/bane all-in and wrecked my 3 cannon wall-in at my natural with no sentries.
On August 29 2012 23:17 Belial88 wrote: Your pool finished a long time ago but you never started 4 lings. And you never blocked it, you never hit hold or patrol. While an enemy worker will block buildings, it's better to use hold or patrol in case he attacks you, as a drone will move if it's attacked when not on hold or patrol.
That's why you lost there ;/
I didnt actually realise he could continue with the wall around the drone, thats why I didnt build lings/pull drones until he built the second pylon.
Second one is fast enought to see everything important in his base anyway. On 4-way maps that may be more anoyibng, but on 4-way maps that shuldn't be happening at all.
I didnt actually realise he could continue with the wall around the drone, thats why I didnt build lings/pull drones until he built the second pylon.
You should be building 4 lings always when pool pops anyways though. If he pylon blocks your third and you only made 2 lings, it will hurt, especially with a cyber added on. I mean maybe just 2 lings if you want to be greedy. He wouldn't have been able to continue a wall around the drone if you made 2-4 lings as soon as your pool popped just like you should always do. I think your macro kind of fell apart as you micro'd against that probe and then he was able to do a ramp block because you didn't really make lings.
On August 29 2012 23:21 Belial88 wrote: Just ignore the troll blade. What a douchebag to be insulting a blue like that. I stopped caring a long time ago what he had to say.
Thanks MrLama, that was a very informative video! A real practical solution to the problem, I like it.
Do you think you were ahead or behind though? You said that Toss was ahead in workers at one point, and if Toss played a very straight-forward robo expand, I think he would have been way ahead of you. Yea, okay, every single Toss who is going to ramp block is going to do some sort of all-in (voids or blink) into DT, so maybe I don't have to worry about that, but just saying ;/
I'd like to see the rep of it, see maybe who's ahead in it. Or a better picture of who is ahead. Seemed like you just countered his build, that's how it looked so easy, but it seemed like he could have been ahead if he wasn't such a moron.
On a side note, I really liked ling/baneling bust all-in as a response to this. I played Toss on ladder for a while, trying to find a zerg to do it too (i found 10 t/p first, dropped my MMR by 300 points tt), and he responded by simply by not pulling drones against it (like you advise), and busted out with 2 spines, and then did a ling/bane all-in and wrecked my 3 cannon wall-in at my natural with no sentries.
I was ahead in workers until about 10 minutes when he passed me (I was at 45, he was at 50). That being said, the only reason I stopped making workers and massed lings is because I saw him starting to push out with his army and I knew it was going to be some sort of 2 base all in hit because of the fast upgrades and quantity of units. Had I seen him looking to take a 3rd or teching up, I could've continued droning and been in a fine position. I also want to note though that I was already on infestor tech and not only that but I had infestors out with enough energy for 2x fungal and 2x infested terrans each. This is a HUGE advantage for defending any push that comes at me, so remember that.
Something I would ALSO like to note is how my opponent didn't react very much to an all in, which is generally what a protoss will do. So typically the game looks like this: 1. protoss does wall 2. Zerg either goes for a 1 base all in (roach or ling/bling bust), a 1 base muta (which loses), or most common a 1 base nydus play. 3. The protoss has like 4-5 cannons down PLUS sentries to ff. Remember, the zerg is on 1 base so you just have to invest everything into holding and you win.
In your case, you said the guy ling/bling busted you but in actuality this is EXACTLY what you should expect as a protoss and thus you should be having to cannon extra and chrono out sentries just incase.
It is for these reasons that I think I am actually ahead in the game. My opponent played greedy and I could've easily punished him with a 1 base all in, but I wanted to show that you could very easily macro out of it and still beat him. If he goes for his 3rd, then you can drone up and take an even faster hive than normal (because you already have infestors out) to make your deathball even earlier.
When the toss does this, he no longer has the control of a game and instead he now has to be really concerned about what you're doing so you get the control and that is why you have the advantage (because he HAS to prepare for the all in or he loses if it hits and he only has 2 cannons like my opponent did).
Ya, the ramp block is pretty annoying, but you could've drilled the forge much faster or drilled the pylon using the mineral patch from your 3rd base using camera hotkeys.
Tried, can't. Doesn't address the problem of toss reinforcing the wall-in either, or if I successfully broke out I'd be more behind because 15x40=600 minerals, which is more than what toss lost.
Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
If you watch the rep, you'd see that I couldn't see the pylon/forge block even with my overlord going straight to the nat and a 12 drone scout. If you say it adds flavor, then you can't possibly have ever faced it. It would make no sense if Zerg had to drone scout on 9 every game simply because of a ramp block.
Or do you think all the tournie maps are broken in favor of Zerg because Zerg isn't forced to pull a drone?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
Put a drone on patrol from 9 supply to 20 supply, until pool pops? And lose 80 minerals?
It's dealable with a standard 13 forge at home because you just pull 2 drones to deal with the 1 probe scout and you want to make the hatch. It's not balanced, nor is it fun or good game design, but it's dealable.
Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
Oh, the exaggeration. Protoss has to 9 scout vs zerg every game or risk outright losing to any form of early pool. Why should zerg be any different? Just because you have to make a small adjustment on one ladder map doesnt make it automatically "imbalanced".
Ya, the ramp block is pretty annoying, but you could've drilled the forge much faster or drilled the pylon using the mineral patch from your 3rd base using camera hotkeys.
Tried, can't. Doesn't address the problem of toss reinforcing the wall-in either, or if I successfully broke out I'd be more behind because 15x40=600 minerals, which is more than what toss lost.
Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
If you watch the rep, you'd see that I couldn't see the pylon/forge block even with my overlord going straight to the nat and a 12 drone scout. If you say it adds flavor, then you can't possibly have ever faced it. It would make no sense if Zerg had to drone scout on 9 every game simply because of a ramp block.
Or do you think all the tournie maps are broken in favor of Zerg because Zerg isn't forced to pull a drone?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
Put a drone on patrol from 9 supply to 20 supply, until pool pops? And lose 80 minerals?
It's dealable with a standard 13 forge at home because you just pull 2 drones to deal with the 1 probe scout and you want to make the hatch. It's not balanced, nor is it fun or good game design, but it's dealable.
Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
Oh, the exaggeration. Protoss has to 9 scout vs zerg every game or risk outright losing to any form of early pool. Why should zerg be any different? Just because you have to make a small adjustment on one ladder map doesnt make it automatically "imbalanced".
Comparing 9 probe to 9 drone, and saying that it's the same thing is just retarded.
It's ladder, stuff like this is gonna happen, no matter what. Sucks cuz it wouldn't happen in a tourny setting, but saying poor game design and stuff like that is just scrub talk. Either 9 drone scout to prevent this and lose 80 mins or risk losing every 1 out of 50 games to this all in, you have to make a choice as to which you think is more valuable. I'm sick of losing to 6 pool cuz I scout last on 4 player maps, no forced spawns is not balanced, nor is it fun or good game design.... yeah... kinda gets stale after a while.....
They scout at 9 so they can go nexus first. You can scout on 13 with a forge first and be safe against any sort of early pool just fine. You also get to block Zerg's expansions, and you get scouting information for what Zerg will be doing for the next 10 minutes (gas, no gas, ie is he doing an all-in or playing standard 3 hatch gasless).
Zerg doesn't get any information with a drone scout, except "oh he's going FFE", which an overlord does anyways, and it doesn't tell you what Toss' follow-up is, whereas Zerg has to go roach/ling and doesn't really make a diversion until about 10:00+ or after they see what Toss is doing (oh he isn't all-inning, I'm safe to tech now).
You are the one exaggerating.
And Zerg goes 14-15 Pool First every ZvP or risk losing to Cannon rush automatically. Meanwhile, Toss can go Nexus First with a 9 probe scout, or, they can just go 13 forge and scout at 13 and be safe to everything.
Also, there is no safe build to this pylon ramp block. Toss can go 13 forge probe scout, 9 probe scout nexus first, or open gateway. Zerg has no build that is safe from a ramp block. If it goes down, it's gg.
Clearly a biased Toss player who's never faced this build. It would be more like even if you probe scouted every game, you would still lose to early pools. And don't exaggerate either, it's 13 probe scout from a 13 forge, and you are only going 9 probe scout so you can go nexus first and get a gain from that.You aren't 9 probe scouting for safety.
Also, there is no safe build to this pylon ramp block. Toss can go 13 forge probe scout, 9 probe scout nexus first, or open gateway. Zerg has no build that is safe from a ramp block. If it goes down, it's gg.
I'd prefer you really consider my video and thoughts. Definitely not gg, just turns the game into a different style where you get faster lair and slightly later expansions.
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs
do you think there is any utility in having a macro hatch on one base? i was initially thinking it could be built close to the ramp so you didn't have to waste your first 25 queen energy on a creep tumor and still get a spine down quickly and close enough to poke at pylons, but it might be left vulnerable to cannons if the protoss glitches into your base.
if it can't be used towards the ramp, however, could it still be used simply for the extra larva with 2 queens? if you are going to double expand after killing the wall in, you could potentially saturate 3 bases quite quickly. if you scout that the protoss is doing some 2 base all in, which is more likely, it would still be beneficial to saturate 2 bases instantly (as soon as the hatch pops). in either situation you will have, like you recommended, teched to lair and chosen your tech (infestor, etc.) and, with 3 to 4 queens, will almost instantly have the production needed to support full 2 base saturation.
so my questions: is a macro hatch at the ramp viable? if not, is it because of vulnerability to cannons? is a macro hatch near your main viable? the only reason i could see it not being viable is if you cant support drone production from 2 hatches that early on in the game (basically at any point before your expansion hatch finishes), or if you could obtain 2 base saturation with only one hatch by the time your expansion hatch finishes (i dont think that's possible).
do you think there is any utility in having a macro hatch on one base? i was initially thinking it could be built close to the ramp so you didn't have to waste your first 25 queen energy on a creep tumor and still get a spine down quickly and close enough to poke at pylons, but it might be left vulnerable to cannons if the protoss glitches into your base.
if it can't be used towards the ramp, however, could it still be used simply for the extra larva with 2 queens? if you are going to double expand after killing the wall in, you could potentially saturate 3 bases quite quickly. if you scout that the protoss is doing some 2 base all in, which is more likely, it would still be beneficial to saturate 2 bases instantly (as soon as the hatch pops). in either situation you will have, like you recommended, teched to lair and chosen your tech (infestor, etc.) and, with 3 to 4 queens, will almost instantly have the production needed to support full 2 base saturation.
so my questions: is a macro hatch at the ramp viable? is it because of vulnerability to cannons? is a macro hatch near your main viable? the only reason i could see it not being viable is if you cant support drone production from 2 hatches that early on in the game (basically at any point before your expansion hatch finishes), or if you could obtain 2 base saturation with only one hatch by the time your expansion hatch finishes (i dont think that's possible).
is the macro hatch at the ramp viable? Yes, just make sure it is in a position like in my video where you can go snipe it. That being said, using a queen for a creep tumor really isn't a big deal. You can make your 2nd queen while your macro hatch is building (near the ramp or not) and then just use that 2nd queen to drop a tumor while it waits to inject into your 2nd hatch later so really I don't think the macro hatch placement is CRUCIAL to the hold. It's just something nice, but I've definitely won many a time with a creep tumor and the macro hatch next to my main.
is a macro hatch near your main viable? As kinda stated up above, yes it's very viable. The thing is though, the macro hatch is NECESSARY because you want to be able to mass up on drones like I did so that when you transfer down, you are still ahead/even with the protoss in workers. If he wants to go for a 2base all in (very common off of this because they think they are really far ahead) then you just mass lings from that point, which is ANOTHER reason why the macro hatch is great to have. The thing about this style is that you're basically just getting things in a different order. Either way you're going to end up with 3 bases, a macro hatch, upgrades, and infestors. It's just in this case you get the macro hatch and infestors/upgrades earlier while taking the bases later (which isn't a big deal because he has to delay his stuff to get the fast forge and cannons to contain you.
Try opening with 10 pool, it denys any sort of wall in, proxy 2gate, any sort of cheese, can apply pressure on protoss, u only need to build 6 lings, gets queen up early for extra injects, forces protoss to build a lot of un necessary buildings to stop it, or they will just sac they're natural in which case you are ultimately far ahead, I prefer to open 10pool a lot vs Protoss to stop any sort of cheese like this, that is my opinion! Gl laddering brother~
What I have found to work the best is heavily overdroning for a transfer later. Alright when you see the initial wall off drop a spine crawler and spread creep to get the spine close enough to kill off the wall. Build at least 1 extra queen and more if you prefer. If they are backing up the containment with another pylon behind the cannons and w/e else you make enough lings to kill it off after you break the actual pylon wall. Do not over make lings or your going to get further behind. Just a rough 12-16 will do with the queens and the spine. Meanwhile the best 2 options I've found so far is you either drop a macro hatch and drone, take your nat and instantly saturate it and get some medium tech out. Something like roach/hydra or ling/festor blah blah w/e tech you prefer the most and believe to be viable on the map and positions. 2nd option is drone and take instant nat and third and saturate them instantly with your over droned main. speed/lair and go on to a standard game. Both of these variations allows you to get as close to equal with the toss as possible from the opening and out play them the rest of the game for the win. It's not perfect but I've won far more games with these variations than I have lost. Btw drone drilling rarely works, but it does in very specific spawns, building positioning from protoss. I much prefer the other two methods though. GL hope this helps ♥
On August 30 2012 02:27 GGzerG wrote: Try opening with 10 pool, it denys any sort of wall in, proxy 2gate, any sort of cheese, can apply pressure on protoss, u only need to build 6 lings, gets queen up early for extra injects, forces protoss to build a lot of un necessary buildings to stop it, or they will just sac they're natural in which case you are ultimately far ahead, I prefer to open 10pool a lot vs Protoss to stop any sort of cheese like this, that is my opinion! Gl laddering brother~
Are you advocating 10pool on 2 player maps? Especially on Cloud, where it's really easy to full wall the choke, and the Protoss will scout you with plenty of time to prepare, a 10pool just seems like a terrible idea.
On August 30 2012 02:27 GGzerG wrote: Try opening with 10 pool, it denys any sort of wall in, proxy 2gate, any sort of cheese, can apply pressure on protoss, u only need to build 6 lings, gets queen up early for extra injects, forces protoss to build a lot of un necessary buildings to stop it, or they will just sac they're natural in which case you are ultimately far ahead, I prefer to open 10pool a lot vs Protoss to stop any sort of cheese like this, that is my opinion! Gl laddering brother~
You can hold a proxy 2 gate easily with a blind 14pool/16hatch. A forge first or 9 probe scout-forge-natural would handle a 10 pool. And even if you get lings in, you have to do a ton of damage with them, since that could have been 3 drones. So you gotta kill basically at least 6 workers to make it worth it ;/
Thanks coyote. Do you have any reps of this?
3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in.
Well, the reason the guy was able to get a ling/bane all-in was because my toss is about gold level. I haven't played toss in like a year (got to masters with random long time ago though). I had a probe in his base and should have known it was coming, seeing just 1 gas, but I wasn't really paying attention, I was just assuming I was playing myself.
But he saw you morph lair, so he knows you aren't going to do an all-in. I mean, he might think something like 1 base muta or nydus, but a simple 5 gate robo would be safe against that and from there he could just take his third. Probably even go like blink expand since you don't have to worry about mass roaches, really.
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs
Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3.
Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after.
There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high...
It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens.
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs
Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3.
Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after.
There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high...
It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens.
I could also go for roaches or hydras in which case he would be destroyed had I moved out towards his base. In fact I've won many games with hydra drops when he expects infestors or some ling/bling all in.
I'm willing to play vs you and show you what I mean.
I'm afraid not since it hasn't happened to me in a while. It'll take a little practice for you to figure out which method you prefer but once you get it down your losses to this will greatly decrease.
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs
Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3.
Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after.
There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high...
It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens.
I could also go for roaches or hydras in which case he would be destroyed had I moved out towards his base. In fact I've won many games with hydra drops when he expects infestors or some ling/bling all in.
I'm willing to play vs you and show you what I mean.
Protoss doesn't need blink to hold roach/hydra drop, he should make robot instead of twiligth thats all. And of course protoss must not take B3 before you take B2, it would be stupid.
I am only diamond-master in toss, i don't think it would be a good example to play vs me.
On August 24 2012 14:36 eSuBuildings wrote: If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
User was warned for this post
I like your style. He has a point, you should know that a protoss will always block your expo so follow the scouting probe with a drone, or go for a different opening so you can shut down cannon rushes, like 14 pool 16 hatch or something of the sort. If you can't stop the ramp block go for a risky all in, timing, or try to macro out of it. Chances are if you do a risky all in like a nydus of speedlings there is always a chance he will probably not be ready for it. One thing it takes to getting to masters is being able to stop the cheese. Cmon now buddy
On August 24 2012 14:36 eSuBuildings wrote: If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
User was warned for this post
I like your style. He has a point, you should know that a protoss will always block your expo so follow the scouting probe with a drone, or go for a different opening so you can shut down cannon rushes, like 14 pool 16 hatch or something of the sort. If you can't stop the ramp block go for a risky all in, timing, or try to macro out of it. Chances are if you do a risky all in like a nydus of speedlings there is always a chance he will probably not be ready for it. One thing it takes to getting to masters is being able to stop the cheese. Cmon now buddy
Clearly you have yet to watch the replay as well. This is a block that comes down before you scout it assuming you do a normal 14 pool scout timing as most everybody does on a 2 player map.
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs
Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3.
Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after.
There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high...
It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens.
I could also go for roaches or hydras in which case he would be destroyed had I moved out towards his base. In fact I've won many games with hydra drops when he expects infestors or some ling/bling all in.
I'm willing to play vs you and show you what I mean.
Protoss doesn't need blink to hold roach/hydra drop, he should make robot instead of twiligth thats all. And of course protoss must not take B3 before you take B2, it would be stupid.
I am only diamond-master in toss, i don't think it would be a good example to play vs me.
and by diamond-master you mean diamond.
I'm going to stop arguing with you here simply because our game knowledge is too far apart and it's unreasonable for me to expect you to understand everything.
On August 24 2012 14:36 eSuBuildings wrote: If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
User was warned for this post
I like your style. He has a point, you should know that a protoss will always block your expo so follow the scouting probe with a drone, or go for a different opening so you can shut down cannon rushes, like 14 pool 16 hatch or something of the sort. If you can't stop the ramp block go for a risky all in, timing, or try to macro out of it. Chances are if you do a risky all in like a nydus of speedlings there is always a chance he will probably not be ready for it. One thing it takes to getting to masters is being able to stop the cheese. Cmon now buddy
Clearly you have yet to watch the replay as well. This is a block that comes down before you scout it assuming you do a normal 14 pool scout timing as most everybody does on a 2 player map.
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs
Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3.
Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after.
There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high...
It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens.
I could also go for roaches or hydras in which case he would be destroyed had I moved out towards his base. In fact I've won many games with hydra drops when he expects infestors or some ling/bling all in.
I'm willing to play vs you and show you what I mean.
Protoss doesn't need blink to hold roach/hydra drop, he should make robot instead of twiligth thats all. And of course protoss must not take B3 before you take B2, it would be stupid.
I am only diamond-master in toss, i don't think it would be a good example to play vs me.
and by diamond-master you mean diamond.
I'm going to stop arguing with you here simply because our game knowledge is too far apart and it's unreasonable for me to expect you to understand everything.
When i say diamond-master i mean that i am not currently playing protoss on the ladder (so i don't know my true level and anyway in 2-3 days i will be at least master toss) because i don't want to fuck my GM zerg account.
On August 24 2012 14:55 Belial88 wrote: There was no way to go for the pylon first. 2 drones attacking a pylon is not going to kill the pylon before the cannon is up...
I am not sure whether this has been mentioned, but in case of a pylon-forge wall-off you can, in fact, attack the pylon with three drones if you squeeze them a bit (did some testing in the editor). Screen: + Show Spoiler +
It takes three drones 45 seconds to take down a pylon, 20 for the shield and 25 for the actual HP. So, looking at your replay, if you pull three drones about when you see the pylon with your 9 overlord (~1:35), you can have it down at about 2:35 (including an estimate for reaction and travelling time). At that time, he has only a cannon building and ~50 minerals in his bank. The cheapest wall-off behind the pylon for him is a 2*2 and a 3*3 building, but that isn't really safe because the 2*2 building has to be next to the forge and can be drone-drilled at that position. So he has to spend at least 300 minerals (two 3*3 buildings) for a safe wall. Plus, he still has to make the cannon and remake the pylon which should delay everything on the high ground until a spine is morphing. Alternatively, he can wall-off with a gateway, a cannon and another pylon, which I would consider the most efficient thing to do, but it is also even more expensive.
Long story short, he has to cut probes even more than he already does to pull anything of the aforementioned off while you are droning up and can defend the high ground in the first place. I don't know if that gives zerg a game-winning advantage, but it is very likely to be better than not killing the pylon.
I hope I didn't make any obvious mistakes. I don't have a practice partner I would want to bother with that crap...
On August 24 2012 14:36 eSuBuildings wrote: If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
User was warned for this post
I like your style. He has a point, you should know that a protoss will always block your expo so follow the scouting probe with a drone, or go for a different opening so you can shut down cannon rushes, like 14 pool 16 hatch or something of the sort. If you can't stop the ramp block go for a risky all in, timing, or try to macro out of it. Chances are if you do a risky all in like a nydus of speedlings there is always a chance he will probably not be ready for it. One thing it takes to getting to masters is being able to stop the cheese. Cmon now buddy
Clearly you have yet to watch the replay as well. This is a block that comes down before you scout it assuming you do a normal 14 pool scout timing as most everybody does on a 2 player map.
On August 30 2012 03:03 CakeInFire wrote:
On August 30 2012 02:45 MrLlama wrote:
On August 30 2012 02:42 CakeInFire wrote:
On August 30 2012 02:17 MrLlama wrote:
On August 30 2012 02:09 CakeInFire wrote:
On August 29 2012 12:48 MrLlama wrote: Here ya go mate. I show how I defend this vs a top masters protoss
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs
Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3.
Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after.
There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high...
It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens.
I could also go for roaches or hydras in which case he would be destroyed had I moved out towards his base. In fact I've won many games with hydra drops when he expects infestors or some ling/bling all in.
I'm willing to play vs you and show you what I mean.
Protoss doesn't need blink to hold roach/hydra drop, he should make robot instead of twiligth thats all. And of course protoss must not take B3 before you take B2, it would be stupid.
I am only diamond-master in toss, i don't think it would be a good example to play vs me.
and by diamond-master you mean diamond.
I'm going to stop arguing with you here simply because our game knowledge is too far apart and it's unreasonable for me to expect you to understand everything.
When i say diamond-master i mean that i am not currently playing protoss on the ladder (so i don't know my true level and anyway in 2-3 days i will be at least master toss) because i don't want to fuck my GM zerg account.
well congrats on being GM, however your counter points haven't been very strong. You keep saying, "some protoss don't all in sheesh!" but you act like the zerg is completely screwed if he just macros. The zerg is just fine and can literally MASS drones up from 45 to 70-75 in little to no time at all considering he will have 4 hatches with queens already made and injecting (just look at how many lings I made when I saw him pushing and now convert those into drones), thus fully saturating 3 bases (and I could establish my 4th soon after because if the protoss pushes, he'll be pushing into a TON of infestors with loads of energy). At the very least, the game is on even terms in my opinion at this point.
You also note that he cuts probes, but you have to remember that he was cutting probes because I was still only on 1 base. No matter what your race, if you continue to keep producing workers when you're a base ahead and they are teching, you are setting yourself up for failure. he HAS to prepare for an all in and thus the game evens out.
So he did a 10 pylon 10 forge cannon. His cannon has to be close to his pylon otherwise you could kill the pylon with a queen. Why not just make 2 spine, make a macro hatch, get some gas/upgrades going and transition out of it?
The way I would handle it is send my 2nd overlord to his 3rd base/check his main gas timing (i do that on this map). I only realize he is cannon rushing when i send my 15p 16h drone down to build hatch. So ill just macro hatch in base, build queen then 2 spine out of range of cannon.
Your response was use 15 drones to try to drone drill the forge. You should lose the game right there when you cant break it and you should know you cant break a forge with that. You continue on to do a 2 hatch lair, nydus, overlord drops, baneling build with like 20 banelings at 12 minutes in the game after you scouted he has sentry. I can tell you it would be much closer if you had picked 1 of those 3 things, id say in this case drops would have been best.
Rather than waste all that mining time just build a macro hatch, drone up get double evo started and play a non-standard game with super early upgrades and excess larva from a macro hatch. I just recently did that 2 games in a row and won both rather easily. And he did a worse for me version of this which is higher econ 3 pylon block. Id rather protoss put a 10 pylon 10 forge at my ramp than 3 pylons at 14 supply.
Mrllama i think cakeinfire brought up some legitimate points. I think practically, your solution would work, since any toss who ramp blocks is probably going to be an all-in moron bot. But I do think there's a genuine concern that Toss will actually be very far ahead economically with his build, and he can tell if you are going lair or not, to which he can simply go blink expand (because he doesnt need to worry about mass roaches, really, just mutas if any sort of lair aggression would come) or just generally take a third instead of all-in.
I mean with 1 base infestors, you clearly have a tech advantage, so I don't know. i'd be interested if you could come out all around 'ahead' against a proper Toss opponent who does this.
I understand the reason of creating this thread, but not the reason that you give for being behind when pulling a drone. Really how many mid-late game errors do humans make in this game, that should be fixed in order to play perfect. It's a game that requires perfection, but what makes the game interested and competitive is that humans make errors.
In order to make this comment less robotic. I actually have a lot of times mid-late game mis rallying or something that also gives me 80+/- lesser minerals than I could have got, just as an example. It's something we practice for, but something that will never stop excisting.
^ It's a significant investment, for no return (99% of the time). If ramp block were much more common, then yea, it'd definitely be worth it. Hatch first would be worth it if Toss went nexus first the overwhelming majority of the time, and 14gas/14pool would be the best build if toss went gateway first the overwhelming majority of the time. But they don't.
Like I 10 drone scout in ZvZ. But that is because if I see someone doing a Hatch First also, I'll respond by going 17gas/17pool, which makes up for the loss I suffer, as well as letting me win a good 10% of my games automatically because of the opponent going 6/7/8/9/10/11 pool. I face early pools enough, that it's worth it for me to 10 drone scout (whereas ramp block isn't nearly as common), and I get valuable information to respond to any build the opponent does (early pool=reactive pool/hatch, autowin, gas/pool = far ahead economically anyways, pool/hatch = far ahead economically anways, hatch first = come out roughly even because of reactive 17g/17p and because I *will* block their hatchery), whereas I get zero valuable information on what the opponent is doing with a 10 drone scout against Toss because I can't do anything (i can't block a nexus against a proper reaction of 2 pulled probes) to 'harass', and I get zero scouting information (except maybe that they are going FFE, but that really isn't something I need to know asap, even proxy 2 gate or 4 gates or gateway openers in general you can deal with blind and react to with your scouting overlord).
That said, yea, pulling a drone at 9 to patrol is one way to stop this. But seeing as how rare this build is, at the moment, I won't do that. I think now on though, I'll do it if I'm facing someone with, say, a Dark Voice portrait (obvious cheeser/farmer/idiot) or says something really, really stupid at the start or obnoxious (those people always turn out to be ramp blockers/cheesers of some type). I mean you can literally detect something like a 6 pool if the person doesn't respond to your glhf in a normal manner. So against those sort of people, I'll be pulling a 9 drone to patrol.
But otherwise, I don't think it's worth it. If the opponent goes Nexus First I really think it's too much of an economic hit to play a comfortable game. So far, what I've gathered is that you should just leave the game the few times this happens, but there's been a little bit of discussion in the last 2 pages about possibly coming out ahead against this.
So far, it just looks like you can deduce your opponent is a moron if he does a ramp block, and doesn't know how to play a proper game, so you can just not pull drones and overreact, and do a 1 base build and just completely outplay a retard and have a high enough chance to win that's it's worth staying in the game.
I still believe if you are ramp blocked, even if you don't pull drones or react, you are in a 'unwinnable' position, but with some of what MrLlama and a few others have posted, it seems like the best course of action is just to play the game out and actually have a chance to win. MrLlama claims that you are ahead, I don't know, he WAS behind in workers as he said, and he didn't post the actual rep so I can't compare the respective positions in the game, but it does look like you mmight have a very tiny chance to win against someone who is obviously going to be a fullblown retard.
On August 30 2012 10:40 Belial88 wrote: ^ It's a significant investment, for no return (99% of the time). If ramp block were much more common, then yea, it'd definitely be worth it. Hatch first would be worth it if Toss went nexus first the overwhelming majority of the time, and 14gas/14pool would be the best build if toss went gateway first the overwhelming majority of the time. But they don't.
Like I 10 drone scout in ZvZ. But that is because if I see someone doing a Hatch First also, I'll respond by going 17gas/17pool, which makes up for the loss I suffer, as well as letting me win a good 10% of my games automatically because of the opponent going 6/7/8/9/10/11 pool. I face early pools enough, that it's worth it for me to 10 drone scout (whereas ramp block isn't nearly as common), and I get valuable information to respond to any build the opponent does (early pool=reactive pool/hatch, autowin, gas/pool = far ahead economically anyways, pool/hatch = far ahead economically anways, hatch first = come out roughly even because of reactive 17g/17p and because I *will* block their hatchery), whereas I get zero valuable information on what the opponent is doing with a 10 drone scout against Toss because I can't do anything (i can't block a nexus against a proper reaction of 2 pulled probes) to 'harass', and I get zero scouting information (except maybe that they are going FFE, but that really isn't something I need to know asap, even proxy 2 gate or 4 gates or gateway openers in general you can deal with blind and react to with your scouting overlord).
That said, yea, pulling a drone at 9 to patrol is one way to stop this. But seeing as how rare this build is, at the moment, I won't do that. I think now on though, I'll do it if I'm facing someone with, say, a Dark Voice portrait (obvious cheeser/farmer/idiot) or says something really, really stupid at the start or obnoxious (those people always turn out to be ramp blockers/cheesers of some type). I mean you can literally detect something like a 6 pool if the person doesn't respond to your glhf in a normal manner. So against those sort of people, I'll be pulling a 9 drone to patrol.
But otherwise, I don't think it's worth it. If the opponent goes Nexus First I really think it's too much of an economic hit to play a comfortable game. So far, what I've gathered is that you should just leave the game the few times this happens, but there's been a little bit of discussion in the last 2 pages about possibly coming out ahead against this.
So far, it just looks like you can deduce your opponent is a moron if he does a ramp block, and doesn't know how to play a proper game, so you can just not pull drones and overreact, and do a 1 base build and just completely outplay a retard and have a high enough chance to win that's it's worth staying in the game.
I still believe if you are ramp blocked, even if you don't pull drones or react, you are in a 'unwinnable' position, but with some of what MrLlama and a few others have posted, it seems like the best course of action is just to play the game out and actually have a chance to win. MrLlama claims that you are ahead, I don't know, he WAS behind in workers as he said, and he didn't post the actual rep so I can't compare the respective positions in the game, but it does look like you mmight have a very tiny chance to win against someone who is obviously going to be a fullblown retard.
and another 2 games skillless bullshit ramp block wins. tried your build mrllama but he instantly took natural and so i was too far behind.
its so fucking retarded blizzard doesnt do anything against this objectively and by all pro players and tournaments accepted imbalanced strategy. there is NO reason not to fix this.
^ Oh no, clearly, many Toss think that there should not be a neutral depot, and that it adds some sort of variety to the game, or that there is nothing unfair about having to be forced to pull a drone from 9-20 supply to hold position at the ramp (like they've ever, ever, ever seen a pro do that when playing on ladder or a map like belshir/tda).
It's clearly a very divisive issue. After all, that's why Zerg is so OP in the tournament scene - because of the neutral depot. i imagine these same people believe that neutral depots should be removed from tournaments.
Oh, that's right, they claim that the ramp block is balanced, it's just that spectators don't want to watch Toss win 5 minute games every ZvP. But it's balanced. What?
On August 29 2012 19:02 covetousrat wrote: Why don't you just send the overlord along the probe path to your ramp? Eg in Cloud Kingdom send your Overlord pass your Natural rocks first then towards Protoss expansion. Your overlord will pass the probe at your natural rocks if Protoss send 1/6 starting probes. If you see it just pull a drone to deny the Forge from going down and another to chase the probe.
Just did this. So fun and easy if you caught zerg unprepared.
I have to requote myself and can someone answer me here? Is it so hard to do an additional shift click for your first overlord as you can easily scout the Probe coming in? This only happens on 2 player map.
^ Yea maybe. I'm not sure. Recently I've been thinking of not drone scouting in ZvP, so it's kind of improtant to get that overlord over to toss' natural by the time your pool pops, in case you have to throw down 2 spines in your main for a proxy 2 gate that's inside your base. If I did that, I think the timing would be tight. But, if I just drone scout like I always do and do on 4 player maps, I could do that. I'd have to see if the timing checks the ramp though. So at 1:00 have an overlord have vision of the ramp, in case he does this style of ramp block.
On August 29 2012 19:02 covetousrat wrote: Why don't you just send the overlord along the probe path to your ramp? Eg in Cloud Kingdom send your Overlord pass your Natural rocks first then towards Protoss expansion. Your overlord will pass the probe at your natural rocks if Protoss send 1/6 starting probes. If you see it just pull a drone to deny the Forge from going down and another to chase the probe.
Just did this. So fun and easy if you caught zerg unprepared.
I have to requote myself and can someone answer me here? Is it so hard to do an additional shift click for your first overlord as you can easily scout the Probe coming in? This only happens on 2 player map.
-there's no guarantee your initial overlord will cross paths with their probe, unless you just let it loiter by your natural entrance for 10+ seconds -you'll have less time to defend against any of the other myriad cheeses protoss can do early game -if they get the cannon at their natural up before your overlord gets there, you may never get to see their gas timings
as with a lot of the other suggestions- this would be worth it if protoss were doing this build ~30% of the time or w/e. but since most protoss apparently want to play a real game and don't bother with this BS, it's not.
I watched the replay and there are few things that really set you back here.
first, your minerals were never fully saturated. Second, your response to this kind of opening has to be something that breaks the wall in quickly, i'm thinking 7 roach? with those early roaches you can harass his wall while you catch back up in eco and not be terribly behind.
I do understand the complete and utter crap and extensivness of this cheese, but it may happen and when it does you have to be able to play and get your self back into the game, marks the sign of a being a better player, win or lose, getting back into the game after something like this must be your goal.
On August 31 2012 01:01 Belial88 wrote: ^ Oh no, clearly, many Toss think that there should not be a neutral depot, and that it adds some sort of variety to the game, or that there is nothing unfair about having to be forced to pull a drone from 9-20 supply to hold position at the ramp (like they've ever, ever, ever seen a pro do that when playing on ladder or a map like belshir/tda).
It's clearly a very divisive issue. After all, that's why Zerg is so OP in the tournament scene - because of the neutral depot. i imagine these same people believe that neutral depots should be removed from tournaments.
Oh, that's right, they claim that the ramp block is balanced, it's just that spectators don't want to watch Toss win 5 minute games every ZvP. But it's balanced. What?
So racist.
I think most high level toss would rather have depots for gg.
On August 29 2012 19:02 covetousrat wrote: Why don't you just send the overlord along the probe path to your ramp? Eg in Cloud Kingdom send your Overlord pass your Natural rocks first then towards Protoss expansion. Your overlord will pass the probe at your natural rocks if Protoss send 1/6 starting probes. If you see it just pull a drone to deny the Forge from going down and another to chase the probe.
Just did this. So fun and easy if you caught zerg unprepared.
I have to requote myself and can someone answer me here? Is it so hard to do an additional shift click for your first overlord as you can easily scout the Probe coming in? This only happens on 2 player map.
-there's no guarantee your initial overlord will cross paths with their probe, unless you just let it loiter by your natural entrance for 10+ seconds -you'll have less time to defend against any of the other myriad cheeses protoss can do early game -if they get the cannon at their natural up before your overlord gets there, you may never get to see their gas timings
as with a lot of the other suggestions- this would be worth it if protoss were doing this build ~30% of the time or w/e. but since most protoss apparently want to play a real game and don't bother with this BS, it's not.
Have you actually tested it? This ramp block only works with a starting Probe being sent out. And I have tested it on all 3 two player map Ohana, Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak. If you send your first Overlord pass your ramp, the Overlord will meet the Probe at 0.50 seconds in game. Any later Probe other than the starting will not work in this cannon rush.
- Let's not get into the Probe hiding which may or may not occur in the future which may delay the Pylon by a long time. - Pylon Forge ramp does not work on 4 players map.
The main part now, is it worth to send your first overlord pass your ramp? It shouldn't make much difference as it takes an extra ~10s (my assumption) to reach P expo.
In conclusion, if you are really worry about this Forge at ramp cheese, just do an additional Shift rally on your Overlord past your ramp.
This topic just gone too far. Ballanced or not, it's not about ballance. Fair or not, it's not about being fair. Ladder is about practice and/or fun. From "fun" point of view I don't think there is a single player who can sincerly say that he has fun playing like this, and I'm 100% sure that there is NO player who likes to play vs this. (but, there are players who takes pleasure making other people miserable, fuck them btw) And from a "practice" point of view.. oh please..
So this is just another retarded stupid shit that gets NO skill to do and ten pages of a topic on team liquid NOT to be able to resolve it. This thing, ballanced or not, just makes people mad so shuld be patched.
^ There's actually been a couple from the bnet forums here saying that neutral depot shouldn't be allowed. something about zergs just whine or something.
I think on 2 player maps having the overlord go check the nat real quick might be a good idea. I guess that means you have to drone scout on 2 player maps though, in case of proxy gates or gateway openers.
On August 31 2012 03:01 Sapp wrote: This topic just gone too far. Ballanced or not, it's not about ballance. Fair or not, it's not about being fair. Ladder is about practice and/or fun. From "fun" point of view I don't think there is a single player who can sincerly say that he has fun playing like this, and I'm 100% sure that there is NO player who likes to play vs this. (but, there are players who takes pleasure making other people miserable, fuck them btw) And from a "practice" point of view.. oh please..
So this is just another retarded stupid shit that gets NO skill to do and ten pages of a topic on team liquid NOT to be able to resolve it. This thing, ballanced or not, just makes people mad so shuld be patched.
Sigh. "It is a not a fun tac". I hate this argument, i really do.
Fun is subjective. What's fun is different to different people. Trying to define "fun" is madness. Trying to define what everyone think is/isn't "fun" is idiocy.
I really just think it should be nerfed, and that is only if Blizzards statestics says it is broken even on higher levels. Seems like MrLiama and other high level Zerg have little trouple dealing with it through and if all games with the pylon block is dealt with that easy then Blizzard would have little reason to do so.
I don't think it is fun getting 6-pooled either, but i don't go to the forums screaming "Make spawning pool take 2 overlords!" when it happens. Deal with it.
On August 31 2012 03:01 Sapp wrote: This topic just gone too far. Ballanced or not, it's not about ballance. Fair or not, it's not about being fair. Ladder is about practice and/or fun. From "fun" point of view I don't think there is a single player who can sincerly say that he has fun playing like this, and I'm 100% sure that there is NO player who likes to play vs this. (but, there are players who takes pleasure making other people miserable, fuck them btw) And from a "practice" point of view.. oh please..
So this is just another retarded stupid shit that gets NO skill to do and ten pages of a topic on team liquid NOT to be able to resolve it. This thing, ballanced or not, just makes people mad so shuld be patched.
Sigh. "It is a not a fun tac". I hate this argument, i really do.
Fun is subjective. What's fun is different to different people. Trying to define "fun" is madness. Trying to define what everyone think is/isn't "fun" is idiocy.
I really just think it should be nerfed, and that is only if Blizzards statestics says it is broken even on higher levels. Seems like MrLiama and other high level Zerg have little trouple dealing with it through and if all games with the pylon block is dealt with that easy then Blizzard would have little reason to do so.
I don't think it is fun getting 6-pooled either, but i don't go to the forums screaming "Make spawning pool take 2 overlords!" when it happens. Deal with it.
It isn't about the fun, it isn't about dealing wih it, because you can't. It is about balance. If the Protoss blocks your ramp with 3 pylons the game is over.
On August 31 2012 03:01 Sapp wrote: This topic just gone too far. Ballanced or not, it's not about ballance. Fair or not, it's not about being fair. Ladder is about practice and/or fun. From "fun" point of view I don't think there is a single player who can sincerly say that he has fun playing like this, and I'm 100% sure that there is NO player who likes to play vs this. (but, there are players who takes pleasure making other people miserable, fuck them btw) And from a "practice" point of view.. oh please..
So this is just another retarded stupid shit that gets NO skill to do and ten pages of a topic on team liquid NOT to be able to resolve it. This thing, ballanced or not, just makes people mad so shuld be patched.
Sigh. "It is a not a fun tac". I hate this argument, i really do.
Fun is subjective. What's fun is different to different people. Trying to define "fun" is madness. Trying to define what everyone think is/isn't "fun" is idiocy.
I really just think it should be nerfed, and that is only if Blizzards statestics says it is broken even on higher levels. Seems like MrLiama and other high level Zerg have little trouple dealing with it through and if all games with the pylon block is dealt with that easy then Blizzard would have little reason to do so.
I don't think it is fun getting 6-pooled either, but i don't go to the forums screaming "Make spawning pool take 2 overlords!" when it happens. Deal with it.
If a large amount of the player base find it not fun, and changing it wouldn't affect the game negatively in any other way, then I don't see why it shouldn't be changed. 6 pool isn't strong, at all, and making 6 pool require 2 OLs would actually hamper balance in other ways; CC first --> gas --> rax would be pretty damn safe, nexus first 100% safe, etc.
Not to mention that this actually is stupid strong and requires a stupid response.
On August 31 2012 03:01 Sapp wrote: This topic just gone too far. Ballanced or not, it's not about ballance. Fair or not, it's not about being fair. Ladder is about practice and/or fun. From "fun" point of view I don't think there is a single player who can sincerly say that he has fun playing like this, and I'm 100% sure that there is NO player who likes to play vs this. (but, there are players who takes pleasure making other people miserable, fuck them btw) And from a "practice" point of view.. oh please..
So this is just another retarded stupid shit that gets NO skill to do and ten pages of a topic on team liquid NOT to be able to resolve it. This thing, ballanced or not, just makes people mad so shuld be patched.
Sigh. "It is a not a fun tac". I hate this argument, i really do.
Fun is subjective. What's fun is different to different people. Trying to define "fun" is madness. Trying to define what everyone think is/isn't "fun" is idiocy.
I really just think it should be nerfed, and that is only if Blizzards statestics says it is broken even on higher levels. Seems like MrLiama and other high level Zerg have little trouple dealing with it through and if all games with the pylon block is dealt with that easy then Blizzard would have little reason to do so.
I don't think it is fun getting 6-pooled either, but i don't go to the forums screaming "Make spawning pool take 2 overlords!" when it happens. Deal with it.
idiocy is to make statements without presenting any arguments what so ever. MrLama is not the best zerg in the world, and that protoss wasn't the best player either, so that game was not 100% objective. And then even if they were, they present ZvP from how to play from behind point of view, and not how to deal with this ramp block.
And lastly, comparing this to 6-pool is retarded. To win with 6-pool you need funk thones of micro, quite good multitasking, abit of a brain and fine decisionmakeing. And still you can fail and flat out loose. This shit is just totaly lame "build two buldings" to win or to be infinity ahead.
suply depots are silly. On a lot of maps it prevents some better building placement to FFE. Against some early pools you can wall your ramp at the bottom or you can wall against some zergling runbys later if there is NO supply depot. I have done this cheese years ago. This isn't really a new build. On a lot of maps the zerg can just place one creep tumor and one spine and will be way ahead. On some maps its too far but you have still a lot of choices then. As long as you keep calm, don't pull drones and keep macroing you can do nearly everything. I have seen 1 base muta, hydra, roach all in, 3 roach expand, nydus, baneling bust and speedling drops etc. Just keep scouting his base, toss wont have any anti air and choose a counter build.
On August 31 2012 03:01 Sapp wrote: This topic just gone too far. Ballanced or not, it's not about ballance. Fair or not, it's not about being fair. Ladder is about practice and/or fun. From "fun" point of view I don't think there is a single player who can sincerly say that he has fun playing like this, and I'm 100% sure that there is NO player who likes to play vs this. (but, there are players who takes pleasure making other people miserable, fuck them btw) And from a "practice" point of view.. oh please..
So this is just another retarded stupid shit that gets NO skill to do and ten pages of a topic on team liquid NOT to be able to resolve it. This thing, ballanced or not, just makes people mad so shuld be patched.
Sigh. "It is a not a fun tac". I hate this argument, i really do.
Fun is subjective. What's fun is different to different people. Trying to define "fun" is madness. Trying to define what everyone think is/isn't "fun" is idiocy.
I really just think it should be nerfed, and that is only if Blizzards statestics says it is broken even on higher levels. Seems like MrLiama and other high level Zerg have little trouple dealing with it through and if all games with the pylon block is dealt with that easy then Blizzard would have little reason to do so.
I don't think it is fun getting 6-pooled either, but i don't go to the forums screaming "Make spawning pool take 2 overlords!" when it happens. Deal with it.
idiocy is to make statements without presenting any arguments what so ever. MrLama is not the best zerg in the world, and that protoss wasn't the best player either, so that game was not 100% objective. And then even if they were, they present ZvP from how to play from behind point of view, and not how to deal with this ramp block.
And lastly, comparing this to 6-pool is retarded. To win with 6-pool you need funk thones of micro, quite good multitasking, abit of a brain and fine decisionmakeing. And still you can fail and flat out loose. This shit is just totaly lame "build two buldings" to win or to be infinity ahead.
I agree I'm not the best player in the world and neither was my opponent. That being said, both of us being over 1000 pt masters should at least give some credibility to anybody around or below that area (99% of players) for an idea of a decent way to react.
Someone else said he tried my build but the protoss took his natural too quickly and thus the toss won. But if we look at the game maybe the guy was a plat player who got supply blocked a lot or didn't get upgrades or waited too long to push out. Just like someone who says, "There's no way to win against a ____ push. I tried what you did but my opponent must've been better because your advice to do _____ was wrong." I'm sure with some practice you would get better at defending it. It's not something you'll just do 1 time and suddenly be amazing at.
The big point I want to bring up though is how you say, " they present ZvP from how to play from behind point of view, and not how to deal with this ramp block. " I think this is wrong, rather than playing from behind, you are simply playing a different style of the game.
In the current metagame you stick on hatch tech for 8 minutes and mass up on drones while you wait for protoss to determine his tech and then make a 2 base push or try to take a 3rd base. you then gather up a nice army of roaches/lings and move into lair tech where you add infestors, go to hive, then get your death army.
In this game, you tech to lair really quickly and get lots of gas. This gives you the "options" of mutas, infestors, nydus, hydras, any form of drops, etc... Which really puts the ball in your court because now the protoss can't just defend at his natural with a couple of cannons but he has to prepare for air, drops, nydus, etc... and cover his whole base. This gives YOU control of the game with which you can either all in (as a toss can make his 2 base all in when he has control) or you can expand once you break out. The nice thing is, once you do break out, if you choose to macro then you are shifting the game control back to the toss, but instead of just having ling/roach to scrappily defend against his army, you have infestors with the almighty fungal growth which is probably one of the hardest things to push in against besides a siege line. Not only that, but you probably can have an upgrade advantage at this point as well, thus the game has changed where yes you have less workers, but you have stronger units and lair tech infestors with full energy and you're not behind simply because supply is equal or worker counts aren't 20 in your favor, you're even or ahead because you have upgrade advantage, infestor tech, and the ability to quickly get to hive and your broodlord/infestor army faster.
On August 31 2012 03:01 Sapp wrote: This topic just gone too far. Ballanced or not, it's not about ballance. Fair or not, it's not about being fair. Ladder is about practice and/or fun. From "fun" point of view I don't think there is a single player who can sincerly say that he has fun playing like this, and I'm 100% sure that there is NO player who likes to play vs this. (but, there are players who takes pleasure making other people miserable, fuck them btw) And from a "practice" point of view.. oh please..
So this is just another retarded stupid shit that gets NO skill to do and ten pages of a topic on team liquid NOT to be able to resolve it. This thing, ballanced or not, just makes people mad so shuld be patched.
Sigh. "It is a not a fun tac". I hate this argument, i really do.
Fun is subjective. What's fun is different to different people. Trying to define "fun" is madness. Trying to define what everyone think is/isn't "fun" is idiocy.
I really just think it should be nerfed, and that is only if Blizzards statestics says it is broken even on higher levels. Seems like MrLiama and other high level Zerg have little trouple dealing with it through and if all games with the pylon block is dealt with that easy then Blizzard would have little reason to do so.
I don't think it is fun getting 6-pooled either, but i don't go to the forums screaming "Make spawning pool take 2 overlords!" when it happens. Deal with it.
It isn't about the fun, it isn't about dealing wih it, because you can't. It is about balance. If the Protoss blocks your ramp with 3 pylons the game is over.
6 pool can be stopped with skill, that's the difference. If you are losing to 6 pool, there is a serious problem in your play. A gateway first opening, a 13 forge opening with 13 probe scout, or a 9 probe scout nexus first all stop 6 pool easily. Even in ZvZ, hatch first will always beat 6/7/8 pools.
Ramp blocks on the other hand, do not have any countermeasures, and no build is safer against ramp blocks than any other. You can go 10 pool, if you get ramp blocked, you lose, you won't have lings out in time to break the wall.
That's the difference. And I don't think it would be a bad thing to ask for 2 overlords for a spawning pool, actually. 6/7/8 pool is not viable in ZvZ, and it does seem viable in ZvP, doesn't 10 pool do the same thing?
It's pretty easy to define though. It's not fun. There's nothing you can do against it that doesn't hurt you playing a standard game that will happen 99% of the time, and the 'solution' to this build does not take any skill. 6 pool defense doesn't require any skill, it just requires the proper response. Sometimes you can use micro, though, to beat it (like CC first vs 6 pool). But ramp block does not matter at all about micro, and you absolutely lose to something that's extremely easy to execute. It's not fun. It's clearly abusive.
Other abusive things are all vs Zerg stuff (2 pylons to ramp block, 5 rax reaper, 8 rax reaper, etc) so I don't know of a good example to really give you. It's much more than something being OP like the old EMP.
MrLLama, just because you make a 5 minute lair, doesnt mean you get broodlords out quicker. You gotta have 5, at least 4, bases to max out on broods. It's not really useful to rush broodlords if you just get 3 unsupported broods. Anything less macro oriented than standard play is just goign to result in much, much weaker broodlord/hive tech, or later.
Otherwise, everyone would go 1 base lair as their opening.
I think your video response was really interesting, haven't watched rep but will do so, but I don't think you can act like you are in an optimal situation when going 1 base lair. It seemed like you would be behind against a competent toss. i'll have to watch the rep.
How about letting the pylon block get up? if you make queen as fast as you can it can actually shoot the pylons without any retaliation, so in the end what do we get? a late expand by you and an earlier expand by Protoss, but since you have the option to tech you WILL force at least 2 and probably 3 cannons at his base, if he doesn't get them then your bane bust / roach ling all in will easily break in. You can actually do some neat stuff like going fast upgrades, or 1base lair tech, which should be viable considering all his money lost on cannons and pylons, but the problem is that you are not used to it.
That is why I think Zerg should work on how to play after being blocked, and not try to avoid the block, cause just like early pool, you can try to go standard, but you will get crushed, so you have to go to a different path which you are not used to. If you will be ready for the block I think you have good chances to be ahead of the Protoss, or at least equal.
On August 31 2012 11:10 moskonia wrote: How about letting the pylon block get up? if you make queen as fast as you can it can actually shoot the pylons without any retaliation, so in the end what do we get? a late expand by you and an earlier expand by Protoss, but since you have the option to tech you WILL force at least 2 and probably 3 cannons at his base, if he doesn't get them then your bane bust / roach ling all in will easily break in. You can actually do some neat stuff like going fast upgrades, or 1base lair tech, which should be viable considering all his money lost on cannons and pylons, but the problem is that you are not used to it.
That is why I think Zerg should work on how to play after being blocked, and not try to avoid the block, cause just like early pool, you can try to go standard, but you will get crushed, so you have to go to a different path which you are not used to. If you will be ready for the block I think you have good chances to be ahead of the Protoss, or at least equal.
Completely agree. Embrace the different style! I love it when protoss does this
On August 31 2012 05:27 OrbitalPlane wrote: suply depots are silly. On a lot of maps it prevents some better building placement to FFE. Against some early pools you can wall your ramp at the bottom or you can wall against some zergling runbys later if there is NO supply depot. I have done this cheese years ago. This isn't really a new build. On a lot of maps the zerg can just place one creep tumor and one spine and will be way ahead. On some maps its too far but you have still a lot of choices then. As long as you keep calm, don't pull drones and keep macroing you can do nearly everything. I have seen 1 base muta, hydra, roach all in, 3 roach expand, nydus, baneling bust and speedling drops etc. Just keep scouting his base, toss wont have any anti air and choose a counter build.
you can just kill the depot and deny runbys. its not like zerg has speedlings for a long time. vs 6 pool just build a cannon in main mineral line and play standard game.
stop comparing 6 pool (which is a fucking huge investment and can easily be countered) with a strat that is insta gg if the wall off is complete AND isnt even close as big an investment as a 6 pool. especially the 3 pylon block is just a 50 (!!!) minerals investment if the P player has to cancel the first 2 pylons...thats just retarded and in no way comparable to a 6 pool!
Here's a reason why you should all care: Blizzard does at least some level of balance analysis based on ladder statistics.
If a non-negligiable fraction of PvZ games are ramp-block-gg, that is going to inflate PvZ win-rates on ladder. So Blizzard won't ever see statistics of Zerg crushing Protoss face is mid-late game (should that be the case), because it will be masked by a bunch of early wins.
Normally this wouldn't be an issue: such a situation is balanced, even if it's not fun. But tournament maps don't allow this tactic.
So you could end up with the worrying situation of a balanced ladder matchup, and a terribly imbalanced tournament match up, because a powerful and play impacting Protoss strategy is not possible. Worth considering.
On August 31 2012 19:28 Dragar wrote: Here's a reason why you should all care: Blizzard does at least some level of balance analysis based on ladder statistics.
If a non-negligiable fraction of PvZ games are ramp-block-gg, that is going to inflate PvZ win-rates on ladder. So Blizzard won't ever see statistics of Zerg crushing Protoss face is mid-late game (should that be the case), because it will be masked by a bunch of early wins.
Normally this wouldn't be an issue: such a situation is balanced, even if it's not fun. But tournament maps don't allow this tactic.
So you could end up with the worrying situation of a balanced ladder matchup, and a terribly imbalanced tournament match up, because a powerful and play impacting Protoss strategy is not possible. Worth considering.
yeah pvz in tournaments is really terribly imbalanced (ROFL). think before you post!
lol it's annoying "strategy" (if you wanna call it that) but its not all hopeless, I've won a few games against it by going for very quick roaches and hopefully if I had a scouting drone I just do a ninja (proxy) hatch and try to get some mins to support the quick roach. 99% of Protoss players put three pylons and a cannon or two behind them meaning that queens and roaches can take down pylons first. Afterwards just try to counter attack with your roaches, he would have put a lot of minerals into that block that he might not have the best defenses.
Thats just my approach, but in all honesty, Blizzard just needs to fix it, whether making bottom of ramp unbuildable or neutral supply depot.
you can just kill the depot and deny runbys. its not like zerg has speedlings for a long time.
Right if i FFE i have units for that. And sure if i have the first zealot i won't use it to scout or to block the entrance. Also nice if you focus the depot with your canon and the zerglings runs by meanwhile.
I guess u never played as toss e.g on antiga against an 8 pool. How do you wall if there is a supply depot?
vs 6 pool just build a cannon in main mineral line and play standard game.
What do you think is more effektive. Walling at the ramp or defending at your minerale line? If you are in doubt watch socke against morrow on cloud kingdom in the PokerStrategy.com League. It's from yesterday.
stop comparing 6 pool (which is a fucking huge investment and can easily be countered) with a strat that is insta gg if the wall off is complete AND isnt even close as big an investment as a 6 pool. especially the 3 pylon block is just a 50 (!!!) minerals investment if the P player has to cancel the first 2 pylons...thats just retarded and in no way comparable to a 6 pool!
sick reading skills you have there. Maybe you should read every post twice if you don't get it the first time. Or if you don't get it then either press F3 and type 6 pool.
you can just kill the depot and deny runbys. its not like zerg has speedlings for a long time.
Right if i FFE i have units for that. And sure if i have the first zealot i won't use it to scout or to block the entrance. Also nice if you focus the depot with your canon and the zerglings runs by meanwhile.
I guess u never played as toss e.g on antiga against an 8 pool. How do you wall if there is an supply depot?
vs 6 pool just build a cannon in main mineral line and play standard game.
What do you think is more effektiv. Walling at the ramp or defending at your minerale line? If you are in doubt watch socke against morrow on cloud kingdom in the PokerStrategy.com League. It's from yesterday.
stop comparing 6 pool (which is a fucking huge investment and can easily be countered) with a strat that is insta gg if the wall off is complete AND isnt even close as big an investment as a 6 pool. especially the 3 pylon block is just a 50 (!!!) minerals investment if the P player has to cancel the first 2 pylons...thats just retarded and in no way comparable to a 6 pool!
sick reading skills you have there. Maybe you should read every post two times if you don't get it the first time. Or if you don't get it then press F3 and type 6 pool.
if walling off on antiga wouldnt be possible every pro would play 8 pool on antiga. just because it worked one time were toss didnt react accordingly doesnt mean neutral depot is imba.
to the 2nd thing you wrote. dont know what you mean with that...explain.
its just boring to argue with some noob toss players while every pro and tournament has accepted this strat as imbalanced and therefore has a neutral depot. thats just an objective fact that cant be argued so blizzard should just add the depot and dont give free wins to P.
thats just an objective fact that cant be argued so blizzard should just add the depot and dont give free wins to P.
free win only if you don't know how to defend it. A lot of ppl fail to defend 4 gate, maybe they should patch that out too?
yes you were talking about a specific game: socke vs morrow. and obv there is no problem with 8 pool on antiga since its in tournaments and if there would be a problem zerg would 8 pool every game on antiga which they dont!
so now you compare this with 4 gate. gratz, your arguments are getting more stupid every time!
its broken and therefore not allowed on the highest level. thats it from my side talking to you since you dont accept that its imba on highest level and you just love free wins with no skill or be pretty ahead if zerg patrols drone.
omg so many ppl here can't read or are just too stupid to understand arguments.
I am NOT using the word 6 pool even once! people reply to my post with: stop comparing 6 pool (which is a fucking huge investment and can easily be countered) with a strat that is insta gg if the wall off is complete AND isnt even close as big an investment as a 6 pool. especially the 3 pylon block is just a 50 (!!!) minerals investment if the P player has to cancel the first 2 pylons...thats just retarded and in no way comparable to a 6 pool!
I am talking about walling at the ramp or defending in the mineral line e.g. the socke morrow game. (There isn't even a supply depot that matters at cloud kingdom.) People read: supply depot is OP
I am talking about that only because some ppl loose to stragegies (e.g. 4 gate) doesn't mean it's op. People response: they nerfed 4 gate...
I am speechless. This is my last post on this matter.
Agreed, or just a Protoss who loses to Terrans a lot. Supply depots OP? At least Terrans can't spawn units around wherever they have a supply depot. Anyways, how did supply depots come into the PvZ discussion?
Loljk, and on a serious note I saw... Oz? Wall off his natural with a pylon-> (nexus not as part of wall) -> gate -> gate -> core -> pylon wall on Antiga vs Stephano, pretty cool. Granted it's not an FFE, it's actually better. So it's not impossible to wall off, it only takes a few more buildings.
You can always wall the top of the ramp with 350 minerals of investment......
Blizzard needs to fix this because its irrelevant to practise scenarios in ladder that cant occur when it actually matters; in tournaments/leagues.
It makes no sense that a zerg has to play certain overly safe openings in ladder (early drone patrol), that ofc punnishes your eco a great deal, when the game is balanced mostly based on tournament play/results. And the games that evolve out of that early blocking scenario are basically a waste of time, its like playing and practising a different game that you will have no use of when it actually matters; tournaments/leagues.
I honestly feel bad for the terrans and protosses playing these gamble block openings, they spend their time doing this type of thing when they could have been practising an opening that actually has relevance instead.
just to get ur basic knowledge going. dronedrilling works on most of the maps, you just have to know which mineralfield to use.
ive played this on my tossaccount up to gm on most of the 2 player maps. after loosing to rubbish nydus allins (not even into my base) i just 5 gate blink stalker pressure into expand every single game and it worked well. i didnt go for 10 proxy pylon + forge tho since that puts you economical pretty far behind. i just went for normal 9 scout and walled him in then with 3 pylons.
On September 03 2012 15:47 Babru wrote: Blizzard needs to fix this because its irrelevant to practise scenarios in ladder that cant occur when it actually matters; in tournaments/leagues.
It makes no sense that a zerg has to play certain overly safe openings in ladder (early drone patrol), that ofc punnishes your eco a great deal, when the game is balanced mostly based on tournament play/results. And the games that evolve out of that early blocking scenario are basically a waste of time, its like playing and practising a different game that you will have no use of when it actually matters; tournaments/leagues.
I honestly feel bad for the terrans and protosses playing these gamble block openings, they spend their time doing this type of thing when they could have been practising an opening that actually has relevance instead.
so u want a game where u play 24/7 exactly the same shit and where adjusting doesnt mean a thing? go tetris maybe :D
As everyone has said, drone drilling doesn't work, not because you cannot find a mineral patch but because : 1/ You're always end up far behind because it cost more to you than to him and 2/ he can always reinforce the wall with other building/pylones.
It's not a question of each game should be exactly the same, no one complain in this threads about rush/all in/cheese in general, like proxy 2 gates, canon rush and so on because they are legit strat, however this one is hugely brocken and really easy to pull off and that's why everyone complain about. Be certain that if there wasn't supply deppot on the ramp on tournament map, you would see 80% winrate in PvZ and every pros doing this.
On September 03 2012 17:43 Bad_Habit wrote: just to get ur basic knowledge going. dronedrilling works on most of the maps, you just have to know which mineralfield to use.
ive played this on my tossaccount up to gm on most of the 2 player maps. after loosing to rubbish nydus allins (not even into my base) i just 5 gate blink stalker pressure into expand every single game and it worked well. i didnt go for 10 proxy pylon + forge tho since that puts you economical pretty far behind. i just went for normal 9 scout and walled him in then with 3 pylons.
On September 03 2012 15:47 Babru wrote: Blizzard needs to fix this because its irrelevant to practise scenarios in ladder that cant occur when it actually matters; in tournaments/leagues.
It makes no sense that a zerg has to play certain overly safe openings in ladder (early drone patrol), that ofc punnishes your eco a great deal, when the game is balanced mostly based on tournament play/results. And the games that evolve out of that early blocking scenario are basically a waste of time, its like playing and practising a different game that you will have no use of when it actually matters; tournaments/leagues.
I honestly feel bad for the terrans and protosses playing these gamble block openings, they spend their time doing this type of thing when they could have been practising an opening that actually has relevance instead.
so u want a game where u play 24/7 exactly the same shit and where adjusting doesnt mean a thing? go tetris maybe :D
I do like adjusting and variance in tactics etc. But like everyone has pointed out, and that you must be aware of yourself or you are just playing stupid, the block cheese is so simple to pull off (its just a matter of gambling, not of execution) and basically in theory ends the game right there (assuming both players are on the same level). There is no logical adjusting to do once it has happend, if you deal with it the best way you can you will come out with a situation thats equivalent of starting the game with ~4 drones vs 6 probes/scvs or so, and this is why all leagues and tournaments have removed the option to do these block gambles.
The only thing to do vs it is preventing it from happening and that means always sacrifising an early drone to patrol the area. So blizzard would then need to balance the game based on this slightly weaker eco state zerg where zergs always use an early drone for patrolling the ramp (and if the zerg also wants to drone scout thats 2 drones thats not mining during the early game). Its really simple to understand.
The drone drill doesnt work, see the post above this one and many other posts explaining it.
Actually it doesn't depend on how you do it, even if you grab all your drone to drone drill as soon as he start it, you might be able to break it, but he can cancel all of his 3 pylone which would cost him 50 minerals and he can plant down his nexus with that money, while all your drone not mining will cost you so much more.
If they wall that early you ignore it and play like normal so lol You can use some drones to attack the wall to weaken it because there will be no cannon for a long time, and then you can sit on the high ground and kill the buildings for free with either spines queens or some fast roaches
On September 03 2012 22:54 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Why are there so many trolls in this thread?
Because the thread was written knowing theres no good answer and trolls love poking frusterated people.
Hey guys, Do you think if enough people requested it we could get TL to start a petition to send to blizzard to change it? To me this seem to be the best way to counter it
Watched the replay, that strategy sucks, it only exists because of Blizzards reluctance to mimic the competitive scene. The best response would be to throw down a macro hatch, drone up as much as possible and break out with roaches? Double expand behind it and maynard your drones, but yeah you will be miles behind but I think that is the best way out of it.
They will expect a nydus play, so maybe threaten with a overseer constantly skirting outside his base, I would also move straight into spire tech, the toss wont be doing a gateway push behind this, its robo or stargate. The reason being this strat allows him safely tech up.
I feel for early game you will be stared of minerals so maybe fast tech to infestors might work.... but your screwed if collosus are out
On September 03 2012 22:54 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Why are there so many trolls in this thread?
Because the thread was written knowing theres no good answer and trolls love poking frusterated people.
Hey guys, Do you think if enough people requested it we could get TL to start a petition to send to blizzard to change it? To me this seem to be the best way to counter it
Not really. I think MrLlama has brought some amazing discussion into this thread. His opening doesn't seem to put you on even footing at all, but it can keep you in the game, and despite ramp block being broken, it's a way to continue playing the game, even if it's from behind against a map exploit. It's especially strong given that ramp blockers tend to be total morons who must continue to all in over and over, and his ideas seem to capitalize on exactly those kinds of idiots.
I think there's also been some interesting stuff provided like sending initial overlord to ramp real quick, or having your 10 drone check the ramp real quick, as in right when overlord pops but at that critical timing when your overlord doesn't see the main ramp yet, when that pylon is going down.
Hey guys, I'm clearly not as good as you Belial but there's something I do and it has won me many games: I like to send my second overlord right over my expo, and then sending it towards his base. Sometimes I see proxy gates (especially in Cloud Kingdom and Ohana), sometimes I see and early probe so I just send a drone down there to check if he's not doing a cannon contain.
On September 03 2012 22:54 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Why are there so many trolls in this thread?
Because the thread was written knowing theres no good answer and trolls love poking frusterated people.
Hey guys, Do you think if enough people requested it we could get TL to start a petition to send to blizzard to change it? To me this seem to be the best way to counter it
Not really. I think MrLlama has brought some amazing discussion into this thread. His opening doesn't seem to put you on even footing at all, but it can keep you in the game, and despite ramp block being broken, it's a way to continue playing the game, even if it's from behind against a map exploit. It's especially strong given that ramp blockers tend to be total morons who must continue to all in over and over, and his ideas seem to capitalize on exactly those kinds of idiots.
I think there's also been some interesting stuff provided like sending initial overlord to ramp real quick, or having your 10 drone check the ramp real quick, as in right when overlord pops but at that critical timing when your overlord doesn't see the main ramp yet, when that pylon is going down.
I meant no disrespect and i agree there are some interesting concepts here, i just dont think were going to come up with anything even close to that amazing guide you made on holding early pools ive had this thread on the mind since it was first posted and cant concieve of any way to come out even with the protoss. If just staying alive past the 14 min (2 base allin) mark is the goal then id reccomend building and inbase macro hatch and a spine to break the contain. Then go fast +1 +1 melee with infestors and delay your third untill the 9 min mark. You should be able to hold anything other than macro play from there but you cant pressure a fast third. Bane drops as you take your 4th will help vs slow players.
So I did some testing with someone on ohana on the timings of like your initial overlord to the toss main, in case they do a proxy 2 gate on you, like in your base.
It turns out 3 zealots are in your mineral line same time your overlord sees his main is empty and he didnt sim city his gateway with a 1 gate gas core opening, which I think is a little too late in order to put down 2 spines in your mineral line to hold and come out ahead (i think with perfect micro you might be okay, but it's still iffy if you dont lose too many drones).
So I'm just going to drone scout every zvp, on every map. So I'm going to do the whole send-initial-overlord to ramp. I guess it needs to have vision of near it at 1:00 though. I dont want it just sitting there forever.
You could have put yourself in a very favorable position in this game by pulling 2 (maybe 3, not sure about if you can micro them all to hit the pylon by mineral stacking to the third) drones and attacking the pylon. Your opponent would be forced to throw down structures to wall in and you would either get a drone out of the contain to drop a hatchery or have more breathing room and an easier time to break his pylon wall-in with 2 Queens off one base, following the normal build order that MrLlama uses in his 3 pylon block guide.
Not sure if this would put you ahead of your opponent, but you would be playing from a strong position for a 2 base tech play.
At the moment his lowground cannon finishes (which you could have delayed by going for the pylon) he has 16 probes, no other structures, and you should have 16 drones and a queen (though you stopped mining). That's a pretty decent foothold to work from, so long as you don't totally both your micro/macro.
EDIT: You can hit it with 3, just tested on a supply depot in a custom game with myself. That means the pylon goes down like 20 seconds before the cannon completes, and you force more mineral expenditure out of your opponent + can get a drone out to drop a hatchery which will either force more cannons or complete and give you a fantastic position in the game.
2ND EDIT: To clarify, this puts the Protoss player well behind you if you properly control your units. Move commanding can be used to stack up on the pylon effectively before attacking it if you have any issues.
Hmm...A drone drill is proven not to work, but a happy drone drill will be more effective! Good creep is the secret to a good economy and happy drones. If you use your overlords to drop extra creep on the drones, it's like a shower to them and they enjoy it.
Poll: Are happy drones happy?
Only if they get a creep shower! :) (3)
38%
Not if you get your ramp blocked noob!!!! (3)
38%
of course!!! (2)
25%
STFU! (0)
0%
Only if the creep is mushy! (0)
0%
:))))))))))))) (0)
0%
8 total votes
Your vote: Are happy drones happy?
(Vote): of course!!! (Vote): STFU! (Vote): Only if they get a creep shower! :) (Vote): Only if the creep is mushy! (Vote): :))))))))))))) (Vote): Not if you get your ramp blocked noob!!!!
The guy he's playing is a known maphacker, and I know the situation isn't exactly as described, but if you can deny highground vision, I think this might work.
On September 04 2012 13:35 AgentW wrote: I don't play Zerg so I might not be on the point here, but might something like this work? I saw Stephano do it on stream earlier:
The guy he's playing is a known maphacker, and I know the situation isn't exactly as described, but if you can deny highground vision, I think this might work.
Stephano won only because the maphacker was terrible compared to how good stephano was. It was stupid not to make backup pylon for the cannon. Without it, a queen could simply kill the unpowered cannon and expand so much earlier. Also, on other maps, your spine crawler cannont reach the ramp right away because usually ramp is not so close to the initial creep range. Antiga shipyard is possibly the worst map to try the wall-in due to ramp proximity to the creep. Until Protoss lost all sentries for no reason by wandering around on creep even after denying 3rd, or suiciding into spine wall, I am sure Protoss was way ahead and should have won. VIsion or no vision is not what matters. It is the fact that Zerg cannot expand like forever once walled in. Thanks for posting, though. It is just hilarious to see Protoss lose after having unlosable position. How...is it even possible to lose from being that far ahead...Also, Stephano's decision making is insanely good. Can't believe he pulled it off.
On September 04 2012 13:35 AgentW wrote: I don't play Zerg so I might not be on the point here, but might something like this work? I saw Stephano do it on stream earlier:
The guy he's playing is a known maphacker, and I know the situation isn't exactly as described, but if you can deny highground vision, I think this might work.
Stephano won only because the maphacker was terrible compared to how good stephano was. It was stupid not to make backup pylon for the cannon. Without it, a queen could simply kill the unpowered cannon and expand so much earlier. Also, on other maps, your spine crawler cannont reach the ramp right away because usually ramp is not so close to the initial creep range. Antiga shipyard is possibly the worst map to try the wall-in due to ramp proximity to the creep. Until Protoss lost all sentries for no reason by wandering around on creep even after denying 3rd, or suiciding into spine wall, I am sure Protoss was way ahead and should have won. VIsion or no vision is not what matters. It is the fact that Zerg cannot expand like forever once walled in. Thanks for posting, though. It is just hilarious to see Protoss lose after having unlosable position. How...is it even possible to lose from being that far ahead...Also, Stephano's decision making is insanely good. Can't believe he pulled it off.
Okay, I see how all of those factors contributed to his victory. I think even a second cannon and fourth pylon would have been it. Again, thanks for the clarification!
^That's not even the build we are discussing tho. The protoss did a 3 pylon block with one cannon. The build OP have problem with is 10 pylon 10 forge at ramp, which comes MUCH earlier than that but also is much more all in from protoss. I think stephano could've blocked that rush easy with a simple drone patroll at his ramp, although I'm not able to judge stephano for anything : ). I think drone patrolling is the proper way of defending stuff this protoss did, however with the build OP is discribing, it's simply silly to patroll as that would require something like a 11-12 drone patroll.
The only conclusion to prevent what happened in the replay is having early scout of the first pylon .... I usually play random but my best race is toss .... I know when I scout as toss ( against terran and toss ) ... I do extensive scouting with my probe ( to the point that it doesn't scout the opponent at the best time ) . It is something that must be done or i will get owned by proxy 2 rax or proxy gate or cannon rush . It's not ideal to scout that way , but the job is to prevent early wins by your opponent
Since blizzard probably not going to add the supply depot at the bottom of the ramps , the best solution is park ovie over the ramp on 2 player maps , when playing toss players ( playing against random I would do it by defualt ) . I do this and haven't had a problem ( thou my skill level is not as high as yours ... just high plat ) . The slight delay shouldn't effect much and would have given you a good chance on winning the game ....
On September 04 2012 22:51 Guardian1972 wrote: The only conclusion to prevent what happened in the replay is having early scout of the first pylon .... I usually play random but my best race is toss .... I know when I scout as toss ( against terran and toss ) ... I do extensive scouting with my probe ( to the point that it doesn't scout the opponent at the best time ) . It is something that must be done or i will get owned by proxy 2 rax or proxy gate or cannon rush . It's not ideal to scout that way , but the job is to prevent early wins by your opponent
Since blizzard probably not going to add the supply depot at the bottom of the ramps , the best solution is park ovie over the ramp on 2 player maps , when playing toss players ( playing against random I would do it by defualt ) . I do this and haven't had a problem ( thou my skill level is not as high as yours ... just high plat ) . The slight delay shouldn't effect much and would have given you a good chance on winning the game ....
Just a thought
This does not only apply to Zerg, it applies to all XvP matchups. An early pylon near your base will always be a bad thing whatever race you are. PvP, we protoss always need to scout around the base for proxies so we don't get cannon rushed/proxy gated. PvT, an un-scouted pylon in a terran base before a wall in is a disaster.
So, all races should be looking out for early proxy pylons IMO.
So QuanticFlo tried to ramp block me, but since I had a drone after her probe, i was able to prevent that third pylon going down in the middle. As a response, she instead put 2 pylons around, so it was this weird 4 pylon ramp block.
Now I've had this scenario come up before, it's sort of weird, I'm not really sure what you are supposed to do but I think drone drilling has always worked for me against it? Not really tested enough, but with lings coming from a 14 pool i feel it's worth drilling against.
Anyways, when doing the drone drill, something really weird happened:
A normal drone drill, you stack up, hit a-move, the drones do a huge attack all at once, and then they spread out. Well, when I did the drone drill this time, I just hit a-move once, and the drones stay stuck together, and continued to attack the pylon. I only pulled about half of my drones for this (because I guess my pool was finishing, I don't know). They quickly broke through with a perfect drone drill, and I was able to clean up his cannon rush with reinforcing lings and drone micro.
Just curious - what the fuck happened? Did I benefit from some sort of glitch?
And on a side note, was it worth drone drilling against? If someone does a 4 pylon ramp block to you because you block the ramp with a drone, what should you do against it? Should you try to drone drill that? Do you just lose? What goes on? I lucked out in this game, but did I respond correctly?
On a side note, it really sucked that despite holding off his cannon rush perfectly, I didn't really get ahead. This guy invested into 4 pylons, and made 3 cannons (and then cancelled them). Despite all of this, we both seemed like we were both put back by the same amount (it felt like we were delayed by about a minute, both of us, like our builds were both paused for a minute).
He followed up with a twilight (seemed like a DT rush) that he cancelled when my overlord got close and then reactively went some sort of 7 gate all-in that had already taken a 3rd gas so it was weaker and later than it should have been... I crushed him really easily.
But had he played competently, I don't understand, I feel like it would have been a normal game, and he wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block or cannon rush.
Did my macro just screw up? I got supply blocked at 18 (yea, the worst mistake you can possibly make against early pressure, I know), but it wasn't taht big a deal since I was only making a queen and I was taking my third then anyways (i mean I didn't feel I was delayed, and my money wasn't banking).
Thanks. If some people could check out this rep, that'd be really cool. I'm glad I won, but I'm really confused why I wasn't more ahead than I was (i was pretty damn greedy, good thing this guy sucked or else I might have lost for that), and I'm confused on what the proper response is to a 4 pylon ramp block after you successfully deny a 3 pylon ramp block, and what the fuck happened with my drone drill that it glitched out in the way it did.
Maybe stealth buff to drone drilling? That'd be awesome.
tldr I block a 3 pylon ramp block, toss responds by putting up a 4pylon ramp block (puts 2 pylons around the middle that I had blocked). I drone drill, and my drones glitch out where the drone drill automated itself instead of me having to manually drone drill. Was this the right response to a 4 pylon ramp block, why did my drones glitch out like that and the drone drill went automatically, and why wasn't I more ahead against a failed cannon rush?
On September 05 2012 13:03 Belial88 wrote: New Question!
Hey I just had a really weird thing happen to me.
So QuanticFlo tried to ramp block me, but since I had a drone after her probe, i was able to prevent that third pylon going down in the middle. As a response, she instead put 2 pylons around, so it was this weird 4 pylon ramp block.
Now I've had this scenario come up before, it's sort of weird, I'm not really sure what you are supposed to do but I think drone drilling has always worked for me against it? Not really tested enough, but with lings coming from a 14 pool i feel it's worth drilling against.
Anyways, when doing the drone drill, something really weird happened:
A normal drone drill, you stack up, hit a-move, the drones do a huge attack all at once, and then they spread out. Well, when I did the drone drill this time, I just hit a-move once, and the drones stay stuck together, and continued to attack the pylon. I only pulled about half of my drones for this (because I guess my pool was finishing, I don't know). They quickly broke through with a perfect drone drill, and I was able to clean up his cannon rush with reinforcing lings and drone micro.
Just curious - what the fuck happened? Did I benefit from some sort of glitch?
And on a side note, was it worth drone drilling against? If someone does a 4 pylon ramp block to you because you block the ramp with a drone, what should you do against it? Should you try to drone drill that? Do you just lose? What goes on? I lucked out in this game, but did I respond correctly?
On a side note, it really sucked that despite holding off his cannon rush perfectly, I didn't really get ahead. This guy invested into 4 pylons, and made 3 cannons (and then cancelled them). Despite all of this, we both seemed like we were both put back by the same amount (it felt like we were delayed by about a minute, both of us, like our builds were both paused for a minute).
He followed up with a twilight (seemed like a DT rush) that he cancelled when my overlord got close and then reactively went some sort of 7 gate all-in that had already taken a 3rd gas so it was weaker and later than it should have been... I crushed him really easily.
But had he played competently, I don't understand, I feel like it would have been a normal game, and he wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block or cannon rush.
Did my macro just screw up? I got supply blocked at 18 (yea, the worst mistake you can possibly make against early pressure, I know), but it wasn't taht big a deal since I was only making a queen and I was taking my third then anyways (i mean I didn't feel I was delayed, and my money wasn't banking).
Thanks. If some people could check out this rep, that'd be really cool. I'm glad I won, but I'm really confused why I wasn't more ahead than I was (i was pretty damn greedy, good thing this guy sucked or else I might have lost for that), and I'm confused on what the proper response is to a 4 pylon ramp block after you successfully deny a 3 pylon ramp block, and what the fuck happened with my drone drill that it glitched out in the way it did.
Maybe stealth buff to drone drilling? That'd be awesome.
tldr I block a 3 pylon ramp block, toss responds by putting up a 4pylon ramp block (puts 2 pylons around the middle that I had blocked). I drone drill, and my drones glitch out where the drone drill automated itself instead of me having to manually drone drill. Was this the right response to a 4 pylon ramp block, why did my drones glitch out like that and the drone drill went automatically, and why wasn't I more ahead against a failed cannon rush?
watched the game
you definitely just benefited from a glitch. If you noticed the first few times after you drone drilled it almost kinda glitched, then one time it got caught and you were golden. that only happens with a 4 pylon wall like that though. The thing about 4 pylon walls is that they allow too much surface area to be focused down on 1-2 pylons, so they are a lot easier to take out than a normal 3 pylon wall (even without drone drilling). Once you got down the ramp and the cannons were cancelled, you should've run your lings over to his base to try and get in and catch him off guard. A lot of times you can sneak in before the cannon and 6 lings is annoying as ever to deal with.
That being said, you were never behind or even after that. Just look at the harvester count. A protoss who doesn't mess around with pylon blocks will be ahead of harvesters until like 37-40 where the zerg can pass him up. With flo, you passed him at 25 harvesters, leaving him well behind which is why his 8 gate didn't even have a chance to move across the map.
On September 05 2012 13:03 Belial88 wrote: New Question!
Hey I just had a really weird thing happen to me.
So QuanticFlo tried to ramp block me, but since I had a drone after her probe, i was able to prevent that third pylon going down in the middle. As a response, she instead put 2 pylons around, so it was this weird 4 pylon ramp block.
Now I've had this scenario come up before, it's sort of weird, I'm not really sure what you are supposed to do but I think drone drilling has always worked for me against it? Not really tested enough, but with lings coming from a 14 pool i feel it's worth drilling against.
Anyways, when doing the drone drill, something really weird happened:
A normal drone drill, you stack up, hit a-move, the drones do a huge attack all at once, and then they spread out. Well, when I did the drone drill this time, I just hit a-move once, and the drones stay stuck together, and continued to attack the pylon. I only pulled about half of my drones for this (because I guess my pool was finishing, I don't know). They quickly broke through with a perfect drone drill, and I was able to clean up his cannon rush with reinforcing lings and drone micro.
Just curious - what the fuck happened? Did I benefit from some sort of glitch?
And on a side note, was it worth drone drilling against? If someone does a 4 pylon ramp block to you because you block the ramp with a drone, what should you do against it? Should you try to drone drill that? Do you just lose? What goes on? I lucked out in this game, but did I respond correctly?
On a side note, it really sucked that despite holding off his cannon rush perfectly, I didn't really get ahead. This guy invested into 4 pylons, and made 3 cannons (and then cancelled them). Despite all of this, we both seemed like we were both put back by the same amount (it felt like we were delayed by about a minute, both of us, like our builds were both paused for a minute).
He followed up with a twilight (seemed like a DT rush) that he cancelled when my overlord got close and then reactively went some sort of 7 gate all-in that had already taken a 3rd gas so it was weaker and later than it should have been... I crushed him really easily.
But had he played competently, I don't understand, I feel like it would have been a normal game, and he wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block or cannon rush.
Did my macro just screw up? I got supply blocked at 18 (yea, the worst mistake you can possibly make against early pressure, I know), but it wasn't taht big a deal since I was only making a queen and I was taking my third then anyways (i mean I didn't feel I was delayed, and my money wasn't banking).
Thanks. If some people could check out this rep, that'd be really cool. I'm glad I won, but I'm really confused why I wasn't more ahead than I was (i was pretty damn greedy, good thing this guy sucked or else I might have lost for that), and I'm confused on what the proper response is to a 4 pylon ramp block after you successfully deny a 3 pylon ramp block, and what the fuck happened with my drone drill that it glitched out in the way it did.
Maybe stealth buff to drone drilling? That'd be awesome.
tldr I block a 3 pylon ramp block, toss responds by putting up a 4pylon ramp block (puts 2 pylons around the middle that I had blocked). I drone drill, and my drones glitch out where the drone drill automated itself instead of me having to manually drone drill. Was this the right response to a 4 pylon ramp block, why did my drones glitch out like that and the drone drill went automatically, and why wasn't I more ahead against a failed cannon rush?
First note - Yeah I think its a glitch. 2nd Note - you say "He wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block" 3rd note - Flo plays terran O_o
^ i dont know who flo is, but i figured it was 'someone' with the name and games played. but the person is low mastesr and random (with a fuckton of games....).
yea, going by like supply and timings, he doesnt seem really delayed in his build at all. just sort of comparing the game. I watched the rep, and then watched a standard zvp vod from like sc2casts of a recent game. When I hit 30, 40, 23, etc, toss is roughly at the supply he is in that game i compared it to, and his buildings and production is in similar places (ie third is started when I'm about 23, and toss is halfway done with a gateway, in this game, he was at like 19 instead of 21, a little bit behind, not as much as id expect, but his gate is nearly done, and a few other things were ahead, so it seemed like it wasnt behind).
every once in a while a thread with this theme appears .. ramp blocked ZvP ... soon enough it dies, and this is an issue that many zergs are facing ... you do get pylon blocked ... you do get mad like hell, after all those hours watching professional streams and the GSL you realize it all means nothing when you get confined in your base ... even the great NesTea fell to this horrible horrible strat.
so what now ? ... are we really going to let this threa die again ? we need a solution ... we need to try the craziest strats and make Protoss and Terrans that block you honest again ... even something with a 40% success rate would be good, we cannot stay ( forever ) alone in our bases, isolated and waiting to die.
the OP needs to compile all the options we might have in a list and we must try them and see which one needs refining,
here is my idea: ... macro hatch in base ... 2 gas ... lair ... get overlord drop ... and ovi speed and mass zerling drop ... with drones and queens and all u got ... leave 1 spine or 2 at home ...
If we figured a way out of this with a decent success rate wouldn't it be obvious for everyone blocking us that we would follow with that figured way which would make it very easy for them to defend?
On September 05 2012 20:19 Atthasit wrote: If we figured a way out of this with a decent success rate wouldn't it be obvious for everyone blocking us that we would follow with that figured way which would make it very easy for them to defend?
yes ... a metagame would develop around it which is fine, currently we just ... DIE !
On September 05 2012 17:39 DMaster wrote: hi everyone,
every once in a while a thread with this theme appears .. ramp blocked ZvP ... soon enough it dies, and this is an issue that many zergs are facing ... you do get pylon blocked ... you do get mad like hell, after all those hours watching professional streams and the GSL you realize it all means nothing when you get confined in your base ... even the great NesTea fell to this horrible horrible strat.
so what now ? ... are we really going to let this threa die again ? we need a solution ... we need to try the craziest strats and make Protoss and Terrans that block you honest again ... even something with a 40% success rate would be good, we cannot stay ( forever ) alone in our bases, isolated and waiting to die.
the OP needs to compile all the options we might have in a list and we must try them and see which one needs refining,
here is my idea: ... macro hatch in base ... 2 gas ... lair ... get overlord drop ... and ovi speed and mass zerling drop ... with drones and queens and all u got ... leave 1 spine or 2 at home ...
DMaster
I've already got multiple videos up for this. The nice thing is that you have control because he has to be worried about so many things.
1. sneak your scout drone for a 2nd hatch somewhere and go 2base muta 2. fast lair, upgrades, and infestation pit in your base while you move out and grab your 2nd/3rd. If he tries to all in you, you have lings and infestors with full upgrades so he can't push into it. If he goes for a 3rd you can go for a 4th and tech to hive. 3. You can go for a nydus all in 4. You can go for drops. Ling drops would need banes with them but I'd recommend hydra drops instead (in which case you'd probably want to have another base somewhere or push out first then grab hydras and go for drops 5. etc...
There's really SO much you can do...I love it when I get blocked
On September 04 2012 13:35 AgentW wrote: I don't play Zerg so I might not be on the point here, but might something like this work? I saw Stephano do it on stream earlier:
The guy he's playing is a known maphacker, and I know the situation isn't exactly as described, but if you can deny highground vision, I think this might work.
FnaticTRICKY is most likely french-canadian based on his incorrect english, the fact that he did speak multiple french sentences (which makes it hard for him to copy paste from a google translator) and the space before his questionmarks e.g : "Umad ?"
Could it be possible for someone to find out who this kid is?
what a pathetic kid/man. everything about FnaticTricky is pathetic,first of all; hes trying to make stephano rage, a guy who've won sooooo much money out of sc2, his grades are good enough for medschool and he doesnt seem to have any trouble in his life, why would he in any way get angry by some basementdweller on the ladder.
secondly, hes a known maphacker so theres no pathetic pride in his GM-placement,
thirdly and this is the worst part; at the end when stephano C-R-U-S-H-E-D him he actually got really angry and showed some real emotions, which means that hes taking pride in his maphacking sessions, probably even investing time and effort into a game which he cant even bring top players down in by using hacks...
Pathetic. I pity this guy, his life must be so empty..
Ontopic: The only reason Stephano won the game is because hes such a superior player, Tricky made some really stupid mistakes.
Drone drilling is a joke, Toss can reinforce the wall-in, so don't tell me that, not to mention it doesn't work on most spawns, and a drone drill doesn't exactly work on a building like a forge with so much HP.
Drone drilling deals insane amounts of damage and you can drone drill on every single spawn. If your drones won't stack onto the natural minerals, take a different mineral patch, at the 3rd or 4th. There will always be a mineral patch which is clickable.
Then you can click the minerals -> A-move -> click minerals -> a-move -> click minerals -> a-move. et cetera. You can also use camera hotkeys to target a building right after the stacking but this is much trickier and might unstack them.
Something tells me you made this thread for kicks and funs rather than to be serious.
^ I don't think you know what you are talking about. Don't post in here if you aren't sure what you are saying is correct or not, and if you don't bother to read the thread. Even if drone drilling could work on every spawn, which it does NOT, toss can reinforce behind the wall-in and you are screwed as the cannon will be up before you can drill the 2nd wall (and, if you were lucky enough to be able to drill, you might not be able to drill the 2nd layer). Not to mention just drone drilling in and of itself will put you behind economically - ~500 minerals lost is wayyy less than the 700+ you'll lose from drilling.
On top of all of that, though, is that the ramp block discussed in this thread, and in the replay, was a 10 pylon/10 forge, with the forge in the drillable spot, which you cannot drone drill through a building forge.
Something tells me you have no clue what you are talking about, and you entered this thread to sound smart, but you just look like a fool. If you had read just the last page, you'd realize the conversation has moved way past what you have said. Thanks, thanks a lot for posting something 20 other people already posted, and got warned for, and that is incorrect, useless, and not helpful or even relevant.
This is where the thread is now:
1. Discussing ways to play 1 base lair/all-in and just ignoring the ramp block 2. Possible ways to prevent a 10/10 ramp block (sending initial overlord to spot ramp at 1:00, sending a drone at 1:00 to check ramp real quick) 3. Is drone drilling worth it against a 4 pylon ramp block when you have a drone block a 3 pylon 17 ramp block, and discussion on this replay and the following:
On September 05 2012 13:03 Belial88 wrote: New Question!
Hey I just had a really weird thing happen to me.
So QuanticFlo tried to ramp block me, but since I had a drone after her probe, i was able to prevent that third pylon going down in the middle. As a response, she instead put 2 pylons around, so it was this weird 4 pylon ramp block.
Now I've had this scenario come up before, it's sort of weird, I'm not really sure what you are supposed to do but I think drone drilling has always worked for me against it? Not really tested enough, but with lings coming from a 14 pool i feel it's worth drilling against.
Anyways, when doing the drone drill, something really weird happened:
A normal drone drill, you stack up, hit a-move, the drones do a huge attack all at once, and then they spread out. Well, when I did the drone drill this time, I just hit a-move once, and the drones stay stuck together, and continued to attack the pylon. I only pulled about half of my drones for this (because I guess my pool was finishing, I don't know). They quickly broke through with a perfect drone drill, and I was able to clean up his cannon rush with reinforcing lings and drone micro.
Just curious - what the fuck happened? Did I benefit from some sort of glitch?
And on a side note, was it worth drone drilling against? If someone does a 4 pylon ramp block to you because you block the ramp with a drone, what should you do against it? Should you try to drone drill that? Do you just lose? What goes on? I lucked out in this game, but did I respond correctly?
On a side note, it really sucked that despite holding off his cannon rush perfectly, I didn't really get ahead. This guy invested into 4 pylons, and made 3 cannons (and then cancelled them). Despite all of this, we both seemed like we were both put back by the same amount (it felt like we were delayed by about a minute, both of us, like our builds were both paused for a minute).
He followed up with a twilight (seemed like a DT rush) that he cancelled when my overlord got close and then reactively went some sort of 7 gate all-in that had already taken a 3rd gas so it was weaker and later than it should have been... I crushed him really easily.
But had he played competently, I don't understand, I feel like it would have been a normal game, and he wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block or cannon rush.
Did my macro just screw up? I got supply blocked at 18 (yea, the worst mistake you can possibly make against early pressure, I know), but it wasn't taht big a deal since I was only making a queen and I was taking my third then anyways (i mean I didn't feel I was delayed, and my money wasn't banking).
Thanks. If some people could check out this rep, that'd be really cool. I'm glad I won, but I'm really confused why I wasn't more ahead than I was (i was pretty damn greedy, good thing this guy sucked or else I might have lost for that), and I'm confused on what the proper response is to a 4 pylon ramp block after you successfully deny a 3 pylon ramp block, and what the fuck happened with my drone drill that it glitched out in the way it did.
Maybe stealth buff to drone drilling? That'd be awesome.
tldr I block a 3 pylon ramp block, toss responds by putting up a 4pylon ramp block (puts 2 pylons around the middle that I had blocked). I drone drill, and my drones glitch out where the drone drill automated itself instead of me having to manually drone drill. Was this the right response to a 4 pylon ramp block, why did my drones glitch out like that and the drone drill went automatically, and why wasn't I more ahead against a failed cannon rush?
First note - Yeah I think its a glitch. 2nd Note - you say "He wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block" 3rd note - Flo plays terran O_o
Actually you know what i think happened (in regards to my drones automatically drone drilling the 4 pylon ramp block).
I think because the way the 4 pylons sort of walled in my drones, when I went to drone drill with them, they couldn't spread out because the 2 pylons sort of walled them in.
I'll have to test this out or something. I'm wondering if you can drone drill against a 4 pylon ramp block on every spawn.
okay guys we have to push this. its just fucking retarded to lose games vs idiots that have no skill and are far less players.
blizzard HAS to fucking deal with this. its so annoying how they give free wins away to complete retards.
lets make some kind of mass email to blizzard or something like that. there is no reason not to get rid of this imbalanced shit like every tournament does. if someone with good english skills could write a short standard email everybody can send to blizzard would be nice.
then just copy that text and mail blizzard. takes 30 seconds and perhaps they will change it finally.
Only thing I see the works when pylon walled in is 1 base infestor ling.
Catz does this when he is forced on one base. He beaks the wall with a queen and a spine. He techs quickly to infestors. He usually has his natural when he moves out. I think he moves out with like 5-7 infestors and a bunch of lings. He uses infested terrans when he's attacked the protoss. He also usually takes his third after he attack I think as he would have tons of minerals.
Do you remeber this time when zergs used to stay 2 bases against a forge fast expand and would still win taking there 3rd at 8 minutes. so saying your gonna be down 80 minreals is silly. bc now with the current meta game your up like 2000 minerals...
What I remember, is that Zergs started to get absolutely smashed by Toss 2 base colossus deathballs because there was nothing they could do, as well as VR/Colossus. Around this time, 2 things also happened that 'balanced' the win rate for zerg - roach/ling all-ins became very popular and strong, and infestors got buffed along with a 9 range NP, which made it possible for Zerg to play on even bases with Toss because infestors could counter colossus so well.
Np was nerfed, but around that time, Zergs started going fast third before lair. Muta play started to become the big thing. People just forgot about deathballs because infestors made them unpopular, and they never came back because mutas started to get big, which beats deathballs too. Fast third play in general got popular, which is stronger than 9 range 2 base infestor play was anyways.
2 base infestor was prone to being hard countered as well, but at the time, Toss never thought past all-inning off 2 base or a 3 base deathball. Nowadays you try to go 2 base infestor, Toss will just go 3 bases, go for a colossus timing, and take a fourth during the push because they aren't so all-in anymore.
On September 11 2012 01:58 Decendos wrote: okay guys we have to push this. its just fucking retarded to lose games vs idiots that have no skill and are far less players.
blizzard HAS to fucking deal with this. its so annoying how they give free wins away to complete retards.
lets make some kind of mass email to blizzard or something like that. there is no reason not to get rid of this imbalanced shit like every tournament does. if someone with good english skills could write a short standard email everybody can send to blizzard would be nice.
then just copy that text and mail blizzard. takes 30 seconds and perhaps they will change it finally.
Maybe I am too optimistic, but even as a Zerg player myself (check my past posts if you think I am lying Protoss/Terran), I am fine with not having the neutral depot. Yes, ramp block is OP without a doubt. Ramp blocked = gg unless blocker is absolutely terrible. However, when Blizzard tries to balance the game, the results from these ramp block games are included in the stats, which means that Zerg is allowed to be OP in another field to compensate for this ramp block. Say, Protoss/Terran is favored by 0.5% due to the lack of neutral depot, then something in Zerg arsenal make up for it by 0.5%. BL/infestor is allowed to be strong maybe because these silly ramp block games exist. Without them in stats, Blizzard might have already nerfed some of the Zerg units. I may be seeing the world differently, but when I see those ramp blocks, I appreciate my opponent for his/her cooperation to Zerg buff. Since tournaments do have neutral depot, Zerg is legidimately allowed to be OP in tournaments because of these ladder players who try to ramp block. Why don't us Zerg players show some love to those guys instead of hating them? They do us favor in the long run. If anything, it is other Protoss/Terran players who have to criticize ramp blocking fellow players for preventing Zerg nerf. But it seems many Protoss/Terran insist not having neutral depot, so I personally take it that they are OK with Zerg being OP in mid-late game.
^ It's terrible game design to balance a game because "okay well Zerg is completely OP, but everything is okay because 3% of the games, Toss autowins just because of the build they choose irregardless of the build Zerg chooses".
If Zerg is OP, then zerg is OP. It should be balanced, nerfed, buffed, accordingly. That doesn't change the fact that ramp block is bad game design either.
Anyways this isn't really supposed to be about balance discussion. I'm just addressing your point.
Also, I think Blizzard largely goes by tournament stats, not just ladder. You commonly see them cite tournament games for balance decisions. id rather lose a few more games because my race isn't so OP than lose to ramp blocks which i can't do much about if it goes down.
On September 11 2012 13:44 Belial88 wrote: ^ It's terrible game design to balance a game because "okay well Zerg is completely OP, but everything is okay because 3% of the games, Toss autowins just because of the build they choose irregardless of the build Zerg chooses".
It is not terrible game design. Just pull a drone even if it costs u 80 minerals. Sometimes you gotta make sacrifices to be safe. It is sad that tournament maps use supply depots on bottom of the ramps. Protosses had to double scout on maps like Tal Darim and entombed. This also cost us a lot of minerals.
On September 04 2012 22:01 Don.681 wrote: Why not 1st ovie on the ramp then second ovie to scout? If you see the pylon you can send 4 drones to kill it right?
Speaking as Protoss here though.
The 1st ovie placement to the toss nat is very crucial, it is important to confirm if the toss is doing the FE and the order his buildings are placed. Toss can do a variety of openings (greedy or aggressive) at that point and to rule out everything because of a feared cannon rush is just retarded. No zerg thinks like that. Zerg is already forced to 14 pool because of this shit and still risks getting blocked.
"If we see the pylon" is not the case here. To pull 4 drones is just significant mining time lost for just a hundred mineral pylon which toss usually plants at the nat.
The case is protoss could easily plant 3 pylons to block your ramp once toss gets 300 minerals after forge. As I said, even 14 pool is blocked by this.
@OP The solution is simple, when probe arrives at your base, @15 supply, send 1 drone to follow the probe and send 1 ling instead after it pops and 1 ling to scout elsewhere.
On September 11 2012 13:44 Belial88 wrote: ^ It's terrible game design to balance a game because "okay well Zerg is completely OP, but everything is okay because 3% of the games, Toss autowins just because of the build they choose irregardless of the build Zerg chooses".
If Zerg is OP, then zerg is OP. It should be balanced, nerfed, buffed, accordingly. That doesn't change the fact that ramp block is bad game design either.
Anyways this isn't really supposed to be about balance discussion. I'm just addressing your point.
Also, I think Blizzard largely goes by tournament stats, not just ladder. You commonly see them cite tournament games for balance decisions. id rather lose a few more games because my race isn't so OP than lose to ramp blocks which i can't do much about if it goes down.
I agree with you. I am just perplexed by the fact that many protoss/terran players for some reason support not having neutral depot there when it probably favors zerg if you are somoene who never tries the ramp block strategies. I see so many QQ about Zerg, yet they support strong Zerg? Maybe they are shortsighted and think no depot there favors Protoss/Terran? Well, sorry I didn't mean to talk deep about balance. It is probably good for all of us to have a neutral depot there not because of balance, but because of game design as you pointed out.
Another perspective. As concluded in this thread, first overlord at ramp or drone patrolling can prevent this ramp blockage, and many Protoss players insist that Zerg should do this using various Protoss counterpart examples like early probe scout etc. However, having to sacrifice 80mineral or whatever amount is not what frustrates Zerg players on ladder. What frustrates people, I think, is the fact that you have to do something "different" from what DRG or Stephano does in tournaments. Say, I could spend 5 hours watching multiple DRG replays to figure out his overlord sending pattern, droning/hatchery timing etc. then all those researches are useless when I have to patrol a drone or send first overlord to the ramp. As for Protoss counterpart, you can spend 5 hours watching Seed's probe/scout timing and do exactly the same to improve because virtually nothing is different. If top pros have to send first overlord to the ramp/patrol drones just like us ladder only players, then counter ramp block becomes a legitimate skill/strategy pros develop, which in turn people can folllow. It hurts strategy development if pros and non-pros have to do things differently. Currently, Zerg players who fear this ramp block are forced to play a different game from what pros play. Also, when pros practice on ladder, they have to either 1. ignore ramp block because it never happens in tournaments and accept to waste ladder points every once in a while to face worse opponents or 2. take ramp block into account and play differntly on ladder. Come to think of it, I think that is the crux of this whole issue.
Btw, first guy who came up with that forge/pylon ramp block is really smart ^^.
Out of curiosity, have there EVER been any major tournaments where this Pylon at ramp has been abused? The only times I can think of where lack of neutral depot had any effect were a game with IdrA way back in the beta (he broke down the barrier comfortably and then lost due to other reasons) and more recently with NesTea losing a game in Code S because he got dual Bunker blocked (the wrong map was being used so he wasn't expecting it at all, and this isn't ZvP in any case). So do we have any actual evidence that these Pylon blocks are overpowered, instead of just being strong because we don't have professional reactions to fall back on? It's very possible that they're balanced (if cheesy), and only seem overpowered because the tournament scene hasn't experienced them for most of the game's existence.
Regarding the argument that cheese isn't suitable for professional play: Broodwar had plenty of viable cheese builds, and was considered highly balanced. It's good to have cheese available, because it adds variety to the game. Watching FFE->Colo->3rd->Vortex versus 3hatch no gas->roach->infestor->broodlord game after game can be a little dull, and the question of "will it be cheese" adds excitement.
On September 11 2012 15:43 Acritter wrote: Out of curiosity, have there EVER been any major tournaments where this Pylon at ramp has been abused? The only times I can think of where lack of neutral depot had any effect were a game with IdrA way back in the beta (he broke down the barrier comfortably and then lost due to other reasons) and more recently with NesTea losing a game in Code S because he got dual Bunker blocked (the wrong map was being used so he wasn't expecting it at all, and this isn't ZvP in any case). So do we have any actual evidence that these Pylon blocks are overpowered, instead of just being strong because we don't have professional reactions to fall back on? It's very possible that they're balanced (if cheesy), and only seem overpowered because the tournament scene hasn't experienced them for most of the game's existence.
Regarding the argument that cheese isn't suitable for professional play: Broodwar had plenty of viable cheese builds, and was considered highly balanced. It's good to have cheese available, because it adds variety to the game. Watching FFE->Colo->3rd->Vortex versus 3hatch no gas->roach->infestor->broodlord game after game can be a little dull, and the question of "will it be cheese" adds excitement.
I don't know the specifics of the history of ramp block, but I know that Idra gg'd a game 10 seconds after he discovered he was bunker blocked (on Metalopolis IIRC). I truly believe that this cheese is really OP, and this is backed by pro players.
My main guess about why tournaments map have put supply depots at the bottom of the ramp is because this particular cheese is a skill-less cheese. 6 pooling your opponent? There's a foot long wall of text about how to do it properly. Cannon rushing? Idem. You still need to micro a decent number of stuff to make the cheese work, especially at high level of play.
However, this very specific cheese need around two to three seconds. That's all. Two to three seconds and the game is over. I don't mind when I get 6 pooled, because I can defend it by microing my workers (even if I go CC first). But I just can't do anything against this particular cheese, this is why neutral depots.
wow some guys here havent clearly read the OP and the thread.
1. the game is balanced around top level where neutral depots are standard! even on top level as the last TLPD stats show PvZ is slightly P favored, so a neutral depot in ladder will do something FOR ladder balance.
2. this is NOT a regular cheesebuild! nobody has something against proxy 2 gate or a standard cannon rush because both can be countered THE SAME WAY as on top level for which blizzard balances. ramp block is NOT the same as the described cheeses since having a drone patrole to prevent it means 100 minerals loss = 2 drones = 4-8 drones @8:00 and on top level that is NOT necessary. the problem is this difference from ladder to tournaments (where blizzard balances!!!!)
3. since every tournament and pro accepts it as imbalanced there is not a single reason for blizzard not to implement neutral depots!
4. it prevents all high master/GM players from good training in the ladder! scarlett even made a poster that said something like "implement neutral depot on ladder" last time she played and hold it in the camera right before/after her game!
please guys. this is a skill game and not a random luck/abusive game. therefore it should be high risk/high reward or low risk/low reward and NOT low risk/instawin. if it would be like: if zerg patrols at ramp toss has taken damage since he cant make the strategy he wanted to do it would be fine. but if zerg patrols toss has taken ZERO damage = not balanced!
Ive been getting this pylon block more recently now that one of my accounts is facing dias, its happening 1 in 3 games. vibe gets this a lot on his wol account but it seems to be the same handful of people he plays, hes getting quite efficient at it. I cant find the exact vods but some of the games in early august are riddled with this plan and he beats it everytime.
Yay my PvZ cloud kingdom problems are over! Thanks! LOL kidding. This is just plain fucked and really losing those 80 minerals is the only way i can see countering this
I just got pylon blocked on cloud kingdom. I pull all my drones to drone drill and destroy one pylon. I attack the 2 cannons being built and the toss cancels and retreats. I retreat all but one drone to not get blocked in again. The probe returns shortly after and builds 2 cannons on the wall side and completes the wall off with pylon. You cannot drone drill tha wall that isn't inbetween you and minerals. So those cannons go up, at down goes my hatch. He also went up my ramp and built 2 additional cannons.
I still manage to win the game with 1 base roach because my opponent is terrible. He continued to invest in many gateways and a robo to go for 6 gate sentry/immortal. my timing hits before that and I destroy the cybernetic core at the wall and pretty much gg him. If he was a half decent player that didn't resort to foolish pylon blocks he wouldn't had sentries earlier. Him being dumb and greedy didn't build any.
My point is, after the pylon block, any half decent protoss would play super safe if he knows you're staying one base. (he knows this because his cannons weren't destroyed until I killed them with 10 roaches). My 1 base attack also comes past the 9 min mark so it's plenty of time to make extra cannons/sentries. If a pylon block goes up it's nearly impossible to stop. Only way to win is because the toss got to your MMR with cheesy cannon rushes and 2 base all ins and too dumb to actaully play the game with a brain. Most of the time protoss is smart enough to know he's WAY ahead when he has two bases running and zerg is still on one base and haven't even started a second.
Utterly ridiculous that this is still possible on the map pool.
If Blizzard is afraid that bronze players might get confused by the appearance of a neutral supply depot in a ZvP match, then how about making it so that overlords start out with the ability to carry and drop 1 unit at a time (ventral _sac_ instead of sacs). This would allow zerg to leave their base and expand, but because of the slow speed of OLs, would not have the potential for abuse.
On September 12 2012 03:10 jdsowa wrote: Utterly ridiculous that this is still possible on the map pool.
If Blizzard is afraid that bronze players might get confused by the appearance of a neutral supply depot in a ZvP match, then how about making it so that overlords start out with the ability to carry and drop 1 unit at a time (ventral _sac_ instead of sacs). This would allow zerg to leave their base and expand, but because of the slow speed of OLs, would not have the potential for abuse.
While I like the general idea, this would be abused to no end. 1 base roach would be undefendable if you open forge. With 2 overlords you could elevator a 7rr in and just destroy Protoss for free I'd like some solution though, of course. It's pretty stupid.
I'm mid-master protoss. I have never had the option to do this kind of cheese because the zerg always follows my probe. Literally every zerg that I have played in the last year and a half has followed my probe. THey eventually stop because i get to keep pecking at the drone when shields regen, but by that time, my probe is either on the other side of the map, or he has 2 lings out to scout because he didnt try for a greedy 14 hatch.
Also, the last time I saw this happen in a tournament or on a stream was over a year ago, and think about it this way: if the protoss fails at doing this cheese, they are infinitely behind and should automatically lose the game if the zerg is any kind of competant.
There is no need for a depot below the ramp, you are just playing poorly. The only reason why tournaments use them is so they can force longer games in some match ups or cut down on cheese options for the fans (i actually enjoy cheesey games more than macro games ).
On September 12 2012 06:53 ishyishy wrote: I'm mid-master protoss. I have never had the option to do this kind of cheese because the zerg always follows my probe. Literally every zerg that I have played in the last year and a half has followed my probe. THey eventually stop because i get to keep pecking at the drone when shields regen, but by that time, my probe is either on the other side of the map, or he has 2 lings out to scout because he didnt try for a greedy 14 hatch.
Also, the last time I saw this happen in a tournament or on a stream was over a year ago, and think about it this way: if the protoss fails at doing this cheese, they are infinitely behind and should automatically lose the game if the zerg is any kind of competant.
There is no need for a depot below the ramp, you are just playing poorly. The only reason why tournaments use them is so they can force longer games in some match ups or cut down on cheese options for the fans (i actually enjoy cheesey games more than macro games ).
You are clearly a troll. But i will still respond. So you are saying all your zerg opponents are always pulling an early drone that stays close to his ramp (he cannot scout with it, he must stay close to his ramp) and greets your early scout probe? Then those zergs are loosing significant eco and are already putting themselves slightly behind since the game mainly (if not exclusively) is balanced from tournament statistics. And tournaments as you know have neutral depot on all maps.
Tournaments use them because everyone who can be considered somewhat knowledgeable of this games agrees that the ramp block (wether its P making 2 pylons or T making 2 bunkers) is a low risk/instawin gamble that requires zergs to always blindly sacrifise eco in order to prevent it. Thats why they chose to "ban" it and since then the game balancing has been done from a game that has no option to do such a gamble.
And as i see it the main issue is that practise from ladder must be relevant for tournament games. A ramp block game has 0 relevance when it comes to preparing for tournaments.
So yes, lets get this done. All terrans and protosses with self respect should join in the cause so that we can make blizzard implement depots in ladder.
On September 12 2012 06:53 ishyishy wrote: I'm mid-master protoss. I have never had the option to do this kind of cheese because the zerg always follows my probe. Literally every zerg that I have played in the last year and a half has followed my probe. THey eventually stop because i get to keep pecking at the drone when shields regen, but by that time, my probe is either on the other side of the map, or he has 2 lings out to scout because he didnt try for a greedy 14 hatch.
Also, the last time I saw this happen in a tournament or on a stream was over a year ago, and think about it this way: if the protoss fails at doing this cheese, they are infinitely behind and should automatically lose the game if the zerg is any kind of competant.
There is no need for a depot below the ramp, you are just playing poorly. The only reason why tournaments use them is so they can force longer games in some match ups or cut down on cheese options for the fans (i actually enjoy cheesey games more than macro games ).
Try watching the replay and reading the OP. I guarantee you are not sending out a 6 probe scout and that probe is getting followed when it's hanging out in the natural. You must be talking about the more common 17 ramp block, which is not what is being discussed at all.
The last time you saw this in a tournament was over a year ago was because of neutral depots. Blizzcon was the last tournament that had no depots, and it was an embarassment, everyone commented on it and blizzard I believe made a statement on it. Naniwa actually attempted to ramp block Nestea, and Nestea put a drone on patrol at the ramp to avoid it.
But this sort of ramp block, the 17 ramp block, is not what is being discussed.
The reasons tournaments use neutral depots is because it's broken as fuck. It has nothing to do with cheese, otherwise you'd obviously see cuts in 2 rax favorable map architecture (ie entombed with the nook, for one example).
Anyways, I've noticed on certain maps spawns, this type of ramp block isn't a problem. For example, you can only do this 10 pylon 10 forge ramp block that occurred to me if you spawn in the south as Zerg. If you spawn in the north, your larva is closer to the ramp and your overlord will actually gain vision of the ramp in time.
The solution that I've come up with, is that the drone I make on 10, I send toward the ramp to check it real quick and then pull it back to go mine as soon as I see the ramp is clear. It's a loss of about 5 minerals that I only need to do on certain maps on certain spawns.
On September 12 2012 06:53 ishyishy wrote: I'm mid-master protoss. I have never had the option to do this kind of cheese because the zerg always follows my probe. Literally every zerg that I have played in the last year and a half has followed my probe. THey eventually stop because i get to keep pecking at the drone when shields regen, but by that time, my probe is either on the other side of the map, or he has 2 lings out to scout because he didnt try for a greedy 14 hatch.
Also, the last time I saw this happen in a tournament or on a stream was over a year ago, and think about it this way: if the protoss fails at doing this cheese, they are infinitely behind and should automatically lose the game if the zerg is any kind of competant.
There is no need for a depot below the ramp, you are just playing poorly. The only reason why tournaments use them is so they can force longer games in some match ups or cut down on cheese options for the fans (i actually enjoy cheesey games more than macro games ).
Try watching the replay and reading the OP. I guarantee you are not sending out a 6 probe scout and that probe is getting followed when it's hanging out in the natural. You must be talking about the more common 17 ramp block, which is not what is being discussed at all.
The last time you saw this in a tournament was over a year ago was because of neutral depots. Blizzcon was the last tournament that had no depots, and it was an embarassment, everyone commented on it and blizzard I believe made a statement on it. Naniwa actually attempted to ramp block Nestea, and Nestea put a drone on patrol at the ramp to avoid it.
But this sort of ramp block, the 17 ramp block, is not what is being discussed.
The reasons tournaments use neutral depots is because it's broken as fuck. It has nothing to do with cheese, otherwise you'd obviously see cuts in 2 rax favorable map architecture (ie entombed with the nook, for one example).
Anyways, I've noticed on certain maps spawns, this type of ramp block isn't a problem. For example, you can only do this 10 pylon 10 forge ramp block that occurred to me if you spawn in the south as Zerg. If you spawn in the north, your larva is closer to the ramp and your overlord will actually gain vision of the ramp in time.
The solution that I've come up with, is that the drone I make on 10, I send toward the ramp to check it real quick and then pull it back to go mine as soon as I see the ramp is clear. It's a loss of about 5 minerals that I only need to do on certain maps on certain spawns.
That is quite infuriating that you even have to resort to that just because of this broken map.
The solution that I've come up with, is that the drone I make on 10, I send toward the ramp to check it real quick and then pull it back to go mine as soon as I see the ramp is clear. It's a loss of about 5 minerals that I only need to do on certain maps on certain spawns.
Are you saying that you are sending that drone to give vision and after that your second overlord will provide the vision? Imo the second overlord needs to be sent directly to scout the opponent (on a 4 player map) that you have not yet scouted with your first overlord and should not have to stick around for a significant time over your natural. But ok, given you do this, does this mean that you always send out a drone from your mineral line once you see a probe approaching your natural (the scouting probe that 9 out of 10 games will come to your natural relatively early) so that you can be there and block in time? Often the scouting probes come very early (atleast on a 2 player map) so then you arent really doing much better then if you just sent out that drone blindly right away. You are in other words doing a slightly better version of just sending an early drone out blindly to patrol the ramp. This does not justify blizzard not implementing the depots.
Either we have a game that we balance around the depot version of the game (like blizzard has done lately, they refer to tournament play when they talk about balance) or we have a game where we balance for a non depot version of the game. I really dont like that there is a difference between ladder and league/tournament play, when i practise in ladder i dont want to play out irrelevant scenarios just because my opponent chose to do a ramp block low risk/insta win gamble that cannot be done in a league/tournament game. So for me this aspect is more important than the balance aspect. I want to as much as possible practise openings/scenarios that i can have use of later when it actually matters, in a tournament or in a league game. I would even prefer tournaments removing the supply depot while blizzard doesnt add supply depots then having it be like it is now. Then atleast what i practise in ladder is relevant for tournament/leauge play and the game would be balanced based on the non supply depot version of the game, where zergs would always patrol ramps with drones very early in the game.
Are you saying that you are sending that drone to give vision and after that your second overlord will provide the vision? Imo the second overlord needs to be sent directly to scout the opponent (on a 4 player map) that you have not yet scouted with your first overlord and should not have to stick around for a significant time over your natural.
The second overlord (9) needs to go to your natural, then your third, to make sure he isn't cannoning you. I send the 16 overlord to his main to sac, it ill get there way before 7:00 when I sac it, it'll arrive maybe 5 or so? so i can sac at 6:30. Many pros do this too. On 4 player maps you drone scout. I drone scout on all maps because you need to know if they are doing a proxy 2 gate by the time pool finishes or else you wont hold it. I bring it right back.
But to send a scout at 10 woudl be too early. So on certain maps, i just send the drone made at 10, the egg, to check ramp real quick, then back to mine. it's 5 minerals lost, and only on certain maps.
It's to prevent the 10/10 block specifically. The 13 forge block you just send 2 drones to take your natural - they can fight to take the nat if he tries to block the nat that you need to take, and that 2nd drone is there that I manually command so i can deny ramp blocks and such. i could also just put him on patrol but I think I'm high enough level now that I can manage the multtask. ive been able to stomp the 3 pylon ramp block at 17 multiple times doing this.
Even if its a 2 player map i like to send my second overlord to scout right away so he can reach a scouting area close to the toss third exe safely, on some maps if you want your overlord to reach such an area safely you need to send it there straight away. Checking that no hidden cannons go up at your natural or third is what your initial lings are for (those lings that you always make blindly to deal with a possible pylon blocking hatch).
Even the smallest details are of significanse, you are sacing early overlord scouting as well as eco with a drone being sent out early, not to scout, but to block a potential ramp block from the standard scouting probe. And you wouldnt be doing this if you played the depot version of the game, then you would have the benefit of +x minerals and +overlord scouting. I want us sc2 players to all play the same version of the game, i dont like that i sometimes have to play out certain scenarios in ladder that has 0 relevance for league/tournament play.
I notice that you are the one who created this thread, are you saying you are fine with the ladder maps being as they are? Surely you must have known long time ago about the option to sac a certain amount of early drone mining time and a certain amount of overlord scouting to prevent pylon block? If you think that is not an issue then why did you create this thread?^^
Myself im ok with everyone playing the non depot version of the game (meaning we remove depots from tournament maps) or everyone playing the depot version of the game (meaning blizzard adding depots to ladder maps). Everyone playing the non depot version of the game could lead to small balance changes though, seing as zergs would always sac a certain amount of eco and scouting just to be able to deal with this 1 easy to execute gimmicky low risk/instawin gamble that is the insta ramp block.
Even if its a 2 player map i like to send my second overlord to scout right away so he can reach a scouting area close to the toss third exe safely, on some maps if you want your overlord to reach such an area safely you need to send it there straight away. Checking that no hidden cannons go up at your natural or third is what your initial lings are for (those lings that you always make blindly to deal with a possible pylon blocking hatch).
I send my 23 overlord to Toss' third and it gets there by around 6-7:00.
If you rely on your initial lings to spot for cannons, you are actually just going to lose the game. 4 lings are not going to be nearly enough to stop 2 warping cannons in a smart location, and suddenly it's too late for you to build more lings (you have larva coming one by one, so at best you can get 2 lings at 24 seconds + ~5 travel time...).
Like say you find out he's actually cannoned up your third. On Shakuras. That's about a 10-15 second travel time. No way you are going to save that hatch.
I like to send my overlords immediately for scouting too, but you just can't do that. You need to send your 9 overlord to your natural, then to your third, to spot for cannons. I think there was a series, Hero vs.... some zerg, which showcased this. There was another series too where zerg got cannon rushed for this exact reason.
I'd be more than willing to prove you wrong though. If you dont have an overlord at the natural, or like a drone around there, you are going to lose to cannon rushes because your lings won't pop in time.
I think there should be neutral depots but that is entirely not the point of this thread. This thread is not for balance whine, it's to come up with the best possible solution for the circumstances we have. I'd like to win more games, that's all. Saying "there should be neutral depot" isn't exactly going to stop Toss from winning when they do this against me.
No, I did not think to send a drone at a specific time to check for ramp blocks. Toss could potentially just go pylon/forge anytime, but I think people pointed out that since Toss have to make that pylon at a specific timing (for probe production), this only goes down at 1:00. There's also more to it than that - what to do if it does go down, what's the cheapest wya to stop it (should you leave your initial overlord in your natural for a while, or should you pull a drone, for example).
"If you rely on your initial lings to spot for cannons, you are actually just going to lose the game".
Isnt it better to spot a probe planting a pylon with a ling then an overlord? Im talking about standard 14 timing pool. I dont understand your logic, if you spot it with your overlord then your initial lings and your newly produced lings will have to move there to deal with it, when i spot it with a ling then atleast i already have 1 ling there so im getting a head start in starting attacking pylons while my other lings are already on their way. Right as the 4 lings pop their first prority is to clear the expansions and clear for probes, once that is done u still keep 2 of them around (1 checking natural 1 checking third) to deal with potential probes trying to sneek in to make pylons. When doing this you could indeed have gotten away with having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. So if you A) make sure you arent getting ramp blocked before lings pop and B) make sure 2 lings stick around to check for any probes after you have initially cleared the areas, then you are not at all loosing the game just by having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. Its smart though (on a 4 player map) to plan it so that your first overlord goes over your natural and then to scout a certain main while your second overlord goes over your third and then goes to scout the main the other direction, but this is not a necessity, your intial lings will run to clear your natural and your third just as fast when your second overlord isnt hovering above your natural/third as if the overlord in fact where hovering above one of these locations. But if you have an overlord hovering above a certain area then you obv dont have to blindly send lings to clear that area and can instead run with those lings towards oppo base earlier, which indeed is a good thing, but so is having an overlord safely planted at a spot to check for protoss third. And most protosses base their oppening (cannon timing) by spawn pool timing which means they will be safe against those 4 lings even if you send them directly towards your opponent.
I havent done any balance whining, if you read my posts the theme is that i dont like inconsistency between ladder maps and league/tournament maps. Thats why i want depot to be implemented in ladder OR removed from tournament maps. But id prefer for the first case to happen, since we can agree on that the ramp block is awful game design, and i appreciate you creating this thread partly to highlight this fact.
I'm not sure why OP's post was warned, which makes it look less credible.
But guys, listen, this guy has a point. Watch the replay. - He tried ramp block - Toss did not show his probe - He (kinda) reacted instantly upon seeing pylon at ramp
On September 11 2012 15:43 Acritter wrote: Out of curiosity, have there EVER been any major tournaments where this Pylon at ramp has been abused? The only times I can think of where lack of neutral depot had any effect were a game with IdrA way back in the beta (he broke down the barrier comfortably and then lost due to other reasons) and more recently with NesTea losing a game in Code S because he got dual Bunker blocked (the wrong map was being used so he wasn't expecting it at all, and this isn't ZvP in any case). So do we have any actual evidence that these Pylon blocks are overpowered, instead of just being strong because we don't have professional reactions to fall back on? It's very possible that they're balanced (if cheesy), and only seem overpowered because the tournament scene hasn't experienced them for most of the game's existence.
Regarding the argument that cheese isn't suitable for professional play: Broodwar had plenty of viable cheese builds, and was considered highly balanced. It's good to have cheese available, because it adds variety to the game. Watching FFE->Colo->3rd->Vortex versus 3hatch no gas->roach->infestor->broodlord game after game can be a little dull, and the question of "will it be cheese" adds excitement.
I don't know the specifics of the history of ramp block, but I know that Idra gg'd a game 10 seconds after he discovered he was bunker blocked (on Metalopolis IIRC). I truly believe that this cheese is really OP, and this is backed by pro players.
My main guess about why tournaments map have put supply depots at the bottom of the ramp is because this particular cheese is a skill-less cheese. 6 pooling your opponent? There's a foot long wall of text about how to do it properly. Cannon rushing? Idem. You still need to micro a decent number of stuff to make the cheese work, especially at high level of play.
However, this very specific cheese need around two to three seconds. That's all. Two to three seconds and the game is over. I don't mind when I get 6 pooled, because I can defend it by microing my workers (even if I go CC first). But I just can't do anything against this particular cheese, this is why neutral depots.
Reasonable enough. I will offer one counterargument, which is that 10pool is still a HARD counter to hatch first (as in, do it and don't do anything obscenely stupid and you win), which is just as skill-free as a cannon rush. Similarly, some of the older tournament maps allowed Zergs to cop autowins with 6pools if the Protoss scouted in the wrong direction. But that's not a good argument as to why cannon rushes should be allowed, just one towards offering other areas of balance. The one thing that I would like is to see the Zerg put under similar pressure as the Protoss to scout and react to potential early cheese. Protoss is under the most pressure in all matchups to scout for more all-in play in the early game, what with early pools, Baneling busts, Roach/Speedling all-ins, 6rax all-ins, 1-1-1, 3rax pressure, proxy Marauder, and whatever else you can think of being quite viable. All of them can be dealt with quite handily once scouted (barring the 1-1-1, which is a strong but not overpowered build no matter which way you cut it), but it's still a bit annoying at times to see the difference. That's just me whinging, though. Pay it no heed.
On September 16 2012 04:06 Quochobao wrote: I'm not sure why OP's post was warned, which makes it look less credible.
But guys, listen, this guy has a point. Watch the replay. - He tried ramp block - Toss did not show his probe - He (kinda) reacted instantly upon seeing pylon at ramp
I was warned for using Big, Bold, Red text (reserved for mods). I changed it to Blue, no more problem.
Isnt it better to spot a probe planting a pylon with a ling then an overlord? Im talking about standard 14 timing pool. I dont understand your logic, if you spot it with your overlord then your initial lings and your newly produced lings will have to move there to deal with it, when i spot it with a ling then atleast i already have 1 ling there so im getting a head start in starting attacking pylons while my other lings are already on their way. Right as the 4 lings pop their first prority is to clear the expansions and clear for probes, once that is done u still keep 2 of them around (1 checking natural 1 checking third) to deal with potential probes trying to sneek in to make pylons. When doing this you could indeed have gotten away with having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. So if you A) make sure you arent getting ramp blocked before lings pop and B) make sure 2 lings stick around to check for any probes after you have initially cleared the areas, then you are not at all loosing the game just by having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. Its smart though (on a 4 player map) to plan it so that your first overlord goes over your natural and then to scout a certain main while your second overlord goes over your third and then goes to scout the main the other direction, but this is not a necessity, your intial lings will run to clear your natural and your third just as fast when your second overlord isnt hovering above your natural/third as if the overlord in fact where hovering above one of these locations. But if you have an overlord hovering above a certain area then you obv dont have to blindly send lings to clear that area and can instead run with those lings towards oppo base earlier, which indeed is a good thing, but so is having an overlord safely planted at a spot to check for protoss third. And most protosses base their oppening (cannon timing) by spawn pool timing which means they will be safe against those 4 lings even if you send them directly towards your opponent.
holy wall of text...
Lings will come too late to spot for cannon rushes. You are waiting 25 second make them for the lings, than another 10-20 seconds of travel time, and then because of waiting for larva, all you can do is make 2 more lings which won't do anything to stop a cannon. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush.
All lings do, is when used in conjunction with drones, add enough dps to end the timing window.
That's why hatch first always loses to a cannon rush from a standard 13 forge FFE. Toss eventually gets the money to throw down ~6 cannons/pylons, and since you need to pull 4-5 drones be building, it's just more buildings than you have drones. With 14 pool, you will have lings coming out to aid the drones. But if Toss is doing a hardcore cannon rush and throws down those 6 cannons, you can't just send your drones back and just rely on your lings, since even 4 lings won't beat a cannon.
sorry dude but you just have a huge wall of text and i have a lot of difficulty reading it.
If you want to test it out, pm me or belial.869@na and I can show you. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush, lings won't work alone. That's why you need to spot with your overlord. It's also about time, if you spot completed cannons with your 4 lings, it's a little late and you lose that base, you can't make enough lings to stop it, especially when it's placed in certain spots. You gotta use an overlord to spot for cannons/pylons as soon as they go down, and you gotta pull drones. Lings help, but drones are the way to stop cannon rushes. If you wait on lings, you'll just lose because you can't make enough lings, and the lings won't come out in time anyways.
On September 11 2012 15:43 Acritter wrote: Out of curiosity, have there EVER been any major tournaments where this Pylon at ramp has been abused? The only times I can think of where lack of neutral depot had any effect were a game with IdrA way back in the beta (he broke down the barrier comfortably and then lost due to other reasons) and more recently with NesTea losing a game in Code S because he got dual Bunker blocked (the wrong map was being used so he wasn't expecting it at all, and this isn't ZvP in any case). So do we have any actual evidence that these Pylon blocks are overpowered, instead of just being strong because we don't have professional reactions to fall back on? It's very possible that they're balanced (if cheesy), and only seem overpowered because the tournament scene hasn't experienced them for most of the game's existence.
Regarding the argument that cheese isn't suitable for professional play: Broodwar had plenty of viable cheese builds, and was considered highly balanced. It's good to have cheese available, because it adds variety to the game. Watching FFE->Colo->3rd->Vortex versus 3hatch no gas->roach->infestor->broodlord game after game can be a little dull, and the question of "will it be cheese" adds excitement.
I don't know the specifics of the history of ramp block, but I know that Idra gg'd a game 10 seconds after he discovered he was bunker blocked (on Metalopolis IIRC). I truly believe that this cheese is really OP, and this is backed by pro players.
My main guess about why tournaments map have put supply depots at the bottom of the ramp is because this particular cheese is a skill-less cheese. 6 pooling your opponent? There's a foot long wall of text about how to do it properly. Cannon rushing? Idem. You still need to micro a decent number of stuff to make the cheese work, especially at high level of play.
However, this very specific cheese need around two to three seconds. That's all. Two to three seconds and the game is over. I don't mind when I get 6 pooled, because I can defend it by microing my workers (even if I go CC first). But I just can't do anything against this particular cheese, this is why neutral depots.
Reasonable enough. I will offer one counterargument, which is that 10pool is still a HARD counter to hatch first (as in, do it and don't do anything obscenely stupid and you win), which is just as skill-free as a cannon rush. Similarly, some of the older tournament maps allowed Zergs to cop autowins with 6pools if the Protoss scouted in the wrong direction. But that's not a good argument as to why cannon rushes should be allowed, just one towards offering other areas of balance. The one thing that I would like is to see the Zerg put under similar pressure as the Protoss to scout and react to potential early cheese. Protoss is under the most pressure in all matchups to scout for more all-in play in the early game, what with early pools, Baneling busts, Roach/Speedling all-ins, 6rax all-ins, 1-1-1, 3rax pressure, proxy Marauder, and whatever else you can think of being quite viable. All of them can be dealt with quite handily once scouted (barring the 1-1-1, which is a strong but not overpowered build no matter which way you cut it), but it's still a bit annoying at times to see the difference. That's just me whinging, though. Pay it no heed.
It's actually not that simple. You can actually go hatch first and come out ahead against any type of 10 pool, EXCEPT 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled and a spine made at each hatch.
If you dont send any drones, you can actually just pull drones, pump lings, and keep your hatch and end up wayyyy ahead. Even speedling 10 pool is easy to defend with hatch first.
10 pool baneling is very hard to beat, but it's possible to out-micro it. Chances are you will end up slightly behind, but with amazing micro, you can come out ahead with hatch first, though odds are against you, but it is micro dependent.
Drone all-in, you can just base trade and run away until you get enough lings.
We've seen many, many pros do 10 pools and fail to execute them correctly. I believe most recently, Suhosin did a 10 pool twice in a row vs leenock, and leenock won both times with hatch first because suhosin is a retard and didn't know how to correctly execute a 10 ppool correctly. We also saw Jaedong beat Effort (?) on entombed, even with a 10 pool 8 of 12 drones pulled with spine, but that was because effort did it wrong, although jaedong did micro absoultely fucking godly.
I'd say 10 pool has just as long a wall of text to do correctly as 6 pool. If a diamond did a 10 pool to me, the correct kind with 8 of 12 drones pulled with spines, I'd still beat it (maybe not 10 out of 10 times, and maybe even not more than half of the time, but I would win a few of them).
Also, 6 pool is not an 'autowin' against toss on certain spawns... Toss can always open gateway first (okay, not realistic, sure, but it still means they have an opening, whereas ramp block owns you no matter what opening you do), AND, 6 pool only works on 4 player maps if Toss goes nexus first and doesnt 9 probe scout. If you go a very standard 13 forge with FFE, you will hold 6 pool even with unlucky scouting, or if you go 9 scout and 13 scout for possible nexus first.
I think you are wrong on a lot of things and it's why you have a weird opinion. In my opinion.
I believe Jaedong held a 10 pool with hatch first against Soulkey in proleague.
In my opinion, the ramp block PvZ isn't horribly overpowered, but I think that bunker rushes at the ramp are (because they require such a large reaction if there is even a hint of it coming), thus any sort of ramp block should not be possible.
Soulkey fucked up really bad. He did not respond correctly, although what jaedong did was a very interesting solution, so clearly soulkey was confused on how to respond. But if you plant a spine at the nat right when it pops, you will crush that type of response. then you just a-move. soulkey did not do that. he did the mistake of many early poolers - attack stupid things like a hatch or pool, instead of going after the drones. made no sense.
you can't hold a proper 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled if the opponent responds correctly. Micro is completely unnecessary.
yea bunker ramp blocks are even worse than this. they have a marine or reaper shooting at you if you try to prevent it, that's frustrating sometimes.
Isnt it better to spot a probe planting a pylon with a ling then an overlord? Im talking about standard 14 timing pool. I dont understand your logic, if you spot it with your overlord then your initial lings and your newly produced lings will have to move there to deal with it, when i spot it with a ling then atleast i already have 1 ling there so im getting a head start in starting attacking pylons while my other lings are already on their way. Right as the 4 lings pop their first prority is to clear the expansions and clear for probes, once that is done u still keep 2 of them around (1 checking natural 1 checking third) to deal with potential probes trying to sneek in to make pylons. When doing this you could indeed have gotten away with having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. So if you A) make sure you arent getting ramp blocked before lings pop and B) make sure 2 lings stick around to check for any probes after you have initially cleared the areas, then you are not at all loosing the game just by having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. Its smart though (on a 4 player map) to plan it so that your first overlord goes over your natural and then to scout a certain main while your second overlord goes over your third and then goes to scout the main the other direction, but this is not a necessity, your intial lings will run to clear your natural and your third just as fast when your second overlord isnt hovering above your natural/third as if the overlord in fact where hovering above one of these locations. But if you have an overlord hovering above a certain area then you obv dont have to blindly send lings to clear that area and can instead run with those lings towards oppo base earlier, which indeed is a good thing, but so is having an overlord safely planted at a spot to check for protoss third. And most protosses base their oppening (cannon timing) by spawn pool timing which means they will be safe against those 4 lings even if you send them directly towards your opponent.
holy wall of text...
Lings will come too late to spot for cannon rushes. You are waiting 25 second make them for the lings, than another 10-20 seconds of travel time, and then because of waiting for larva, all you can do is make 2 more lings which won't do anything to stop a cannon. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush.
All lings do, is when used in conjunction with drones, add enough dps to end the timing window.
That's why hatch first always loses to a cannon rush from a standard 13 forge FFE. Toss eventually gets the money to throw down ~6 cannons/pylons, and since you need to pull 4-5 drones be building, it's just more buildings than you have drones. With 14 pool, you will have lings coming out to aid the drones. But if Toss is doing a hardcore cannon rush and throws down those 6 cannons, you can't just send your drones back and just rely on your lings, since even 4 lings won't beat a cannon.
sorry dude but you just have a huge wall of text and i have a lot of difficulty reading it.
If you want to test it out, pm me or belial.869@na and I can show you. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush, lings won't work alone. That's why you need to spot with your overlord. It's also about time, if you spot completed cannons with your 4 lings, it's a little late and you lose that base, you can't make enough lings to stop it, especially when it's placed in certain spots. You gotta use an overlord to spot for cannons/pylons as soon as they go down, and you gotta pull drones. Lings help, but drones are the way to stop cannon rushes. If you wait on lings, you'll just lose because you can't make enough lings, and the lings won't come out in time anyways.
A zerg can use a drone to scout (for example the drone that was pulled blindly to patrol the ramp area) the natural area during the necessary timing window to be able to pull drones before lings pop, and thus the second overlord can be sent to scout desired location right away. So yes, its either a drone or a overlord that needs to be there so that you can pull drones in time vs a certain cannon cheese. I did not have this cheese in mind though when i wrote my post (havnt faced it in a very long time) so i didnt adress it, should have added the third "rule" saying that the z must ofc use a drone to scout during that timing window if the overlord isnt there.
I didn't read through all 15 pages of replies, but I think you were playing 11 overpool wrong if you were trying to bust his pylons with drones. If I see any kind of shit like this I go 11 overpool into the 7RR variation. You can obviously be safe vs the cannons with 7RR unless he competely commits to cannons, at which point it's probably best to transition into 1-base nydus anywhere on the map (not to mention you should be able to see how hard he's committing to cannons with OL). If he literally gets 3+ cannons outside your main, he will be EXTREMELY delayed in tech while you're going straight for 1base nydus or even 1base muta.
At this point you don't even have to nydus straight into his base... you can just get outside your base and most likely kill him. It's a little coin-flippy, but doable.
If he doesn't commit to cannons, you can bust out via 7RR and either go allin or just pressure with the roaches while securing your expansion and play a pretty normal game. The only thing to watch out for here is a stargate transition, which you should be able to scout. When people do standard 13 forge 17 pylon block though I usually just win with the 7RR easily, and it should work even better against what you faced since he's sac'ing even MORE eco and his forge.
On September 17 2012 03:23 Defenestrator wrote: I didn't read through all 15 pages of replies, but I think you were playing 11 overpool wrong if you were trying to bust his pylons with drones. If I see any kind of shit like this I go 11 overpool into the 7RR variation. You can obviously be safe vs the cannons with 7RR unless he competely commits to cannons, at which point it's probably best to transition into 1-base nydus anywhere on the map (not to mention you should be able to see how hard he's committing to cannons with OL). If he literally gets 3+ cannons outside your main, he will be EXTREMELY delayed in tech while you're going straight for 1base nydus or even 1base muta.
At this point you don't even have to nydus straight into his base... you can just get outside your base and most likely kill him. It's a little coin-flippy, but doable.
If he doesn't commit to cannons, you can bust out via 7RR and either go allin or just pressure with the roaches while securing your expansion and play a pretty normal game. The only thing to watch out for here is a stargate transition, which you should be able to scout. When people do standard 13 forge 17 pylon block though I usually just win with the 7RR easily, and it should work even better against what you faced since he's sac'ing even MORE eco and his forge.
I don't see where 11 overpool and 7rr came into this... If you 7RR every game then it's just a silly cheese that autoloses to any standard play that scouts it. While it might get wins vs this blind ramp block, he can reinforce the wall with cannons to kill the roaches, and then you're screwed.
1base nydus/muta isn't tech play, it's more all-in. He can make however many cannons it takes...as long as you're on 1 base, he's ahead.
Also, IIRC the 7RR requires a fast gas and fast pool, which means you're sac'ing economy every game to do a cheese...
Edit: Reactive roach busts might be viable, but a pre-decided 7RR is just all in.
On September 17 2012 03:36 Mavvie wrote: I don't see where 11 overpool and 7rr came into this... If you 7RR every game then it's just a silly cheese that autoloses to any standard play that scouts it. While it might get wins vs this blind ramp block, he can reinforce the wall with cannons to kill the roaches, and then you're screwed.
1base nydus/muta isn't tech play, it's more all-in. He can make however many cannons it takes...as long as you're on 1 base, he's ahead.
Also, IIRC the 7RR requires a fast gas and fast pool, which means you're sac'ing economy every game to do a cheese...
Edit: Reactive roach busts might be viable, but a pre-decided 7RR is just all in.
I'm exactly talking about reactive roach bust. The nice thing about 11 overpool is that you can either open up standard with 4 lings/queen into 18/19hatch, OR if you get blocked, go straight into 7RR (you can see this in time with your 2nd OL). The start for both builds is exactly the same.
And yes, he can reinforce the wall with cannons, but not in time. You can kill the wall from the high ground with roaches, and then 7 roaches in open space can own 2-3 cannons pretty easily. At this point you pressure to either kill him/force more cannons while expanding yourself or just pump roaches and most likely win. If you expand at this point, because of all the res he poured into the ocannons, he will be behind.
If he pre-emptively gets 3+ cannons to reinforce (before roaches come), then a fast transition into nydus/muta should win very easily. There's no way he's ahead if he's getting pylon/forge on 10 supply and then 3+ cannons (or 3 pylon block into 3+ cannons). He has to do all that, then get a pylon/gateway in his main... all the while, you're basically going straight for muta or nydus, so no, he's not ahead.
And yes of course it's all-in, but it's an all-in designed to counter his all-in =P This is how I deal with this sort of thing and unless I react wrong or face something weird (one time I kept pumping roaches against someone who went fast 1-base immortal off of this opening), then it's an easy win.
^ no offense dude but you are clearly speaking on something you've never tested.... 11 overpool won't get lings out to bust against a standard cannon rush or 3 pylon ramp block at 17, let alone a 10 pylon 10 forge ramp block that occurred in the game. I'm 1500 masters, I'm pretty sure I can overpool correctly.
As for your suggestion of roach allin, please provide a replay.
Isnt it better to spot a probe planting a pylon with a ling then an overlord? Im talking about standard 14 timing pool. I dont understand your logic, if you spot it with your overlord then your initial lings and your newly produced lings will have to move there to deal with it, when i spot it with a ling then atleast i already have 1 ling there so im getting a head start in starting attacking pylons while my other lings are already on their way. Right as the 4 lings pop their first prority is to clear the expansions and clear for probes, once that is done u still keep 2 of them around (1 checking natural 1 checking third) to deal with potential probes trying to sneek in to make pylons. When doing this you could indeed have gotten away with having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. So if you A) make sure you arent getting ramp blocked before lings pop and B) make sure 2 lings stick around to check for any probes after you have initially cleared the areas, then you are not at all loosing the game just by having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. Its smart though (on a 4 player map) to plan it so that your first overlord goes over your natural and then to scout a certain main while your second overlord goes over your third and then goes to scout the main the other direction, but this is not a necessity, your intial lings will run to clear your natural and your third just as fast when your second overlord isnt hovering above your natural/third as if the overlord in fact where hovering above one of these locations. But if you have an overlord hovering above a certain area then you obv dont have to blindly send lings to clear that area and can instead run with those lings towards oppo base earlier, which indeed is a good thing, but so is having an overlord safely planted at a spot to check for protoss third. And most protosses base their oppening (cannon timing) by spawn pool timing which means they will be safe against those 4 lings even if you send them directly towards your opponent.
holy wall of text...
Lings will come too late to spot for cannon rushes. You are waiting 25 second make them for the lings, than another 10-20 seconds of travel time, and then because of waiting for larva, all you can do is make 2 more lings which won't do anything to stop a cannon. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush.
All lings do, is when used in conjunction with drones, add enough dps to end the timing window.
That's why hatch first always loses to a cannon rush from a standard 13 forge FFE. Toss eventually gets the money to throw down ~6 cannons/pylons, and since you need to pull 4-5 drones be building, it's just more buildings than you have drones. With 14 pool, you will have lings coming out to aid the drones. But if Toss is doing a hardcore cannon rush and throws down those 6 cannons, you can't just send your drones back and just rely on your lings, since even 4 lings won't beat a cannon.
sorry dude but you just have a huge wall of text and i have a lot of difficulty reading it.
If you want to test it out, pm me or belial.869@na and I can show you. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush, lings won't work alone. That's why you need to spot with your overlord. It's also about time, if you spot completed cannons with your 4 lings, it's a little late and you lose that base, you can't make enough lings to stop it, especially when it's placed in certain spots. You gotta use an overlord to spot for cannons/pylons as soon as they go down, and you gotta pull drones. Lings help, but drones are the way to stop cannon rushes. If you wait on lings, you'll just lose because you can't make enough lings, and the lings won't come out in time anyways.
A zerg can use a drone to scout (for example the drone that was pulled blindly to patrol the ramp area) the natural area during the necessary timing window to be able to pull drones before lings pop, and thus the second overlord can be sent to scout desired location right away. So yes, its either a drone or a overlord that needs to be there so that you can pull drones in time vs a certain cannon cheese. I did not have this cheese in mind though when i wrote my post (havnt faced it in a very long time) so i didnt adress it, should have added the third "rule" saying that the z must ofc use a drone to scout during that timing window if the overlord isnt there.
You aren't using a drone to patrol at the third. You don't necessarily need to patrol the ramp, if you are higher level you can just follow the probe and if he goes toward the ramp, just block the 3rd pylon from going down. So just leave an overlord there. You really need an overlord over your third, unless you just leave your lings at your third instead of being active to find the probe and zealot. Which would be a waste.
On September 17 2012 04:46 Belial88 wrote: ^ no offense dude but you are clearly speaking on something you've never tested.... 11 overpool won't get lings out to bust against a standard cannon rush or 3 pylon ramp block at 17, let alone a 10 pylon 10 forge ramp block that occurred in the game. I'm 1500 masters, I'm pretty sure I can overpool correctly.
You're not understanding what I'm saying then. To clarify let me provide my BO:
11OL 11pool drone up send 2nd OL to expo
AT THIS POINT, if you see him starting to throw down pylons:
drone to 16 Queen/extractor/drone/roach warren/drone 2 OL's (at 18/18 supply) when OL's finish, 7 roaches
DO NOT build lings. Now there may be a very narrow window where you've droned to 15 and started your 2 lings to get to 19 when he throws down the pylons, but there's a small chance of this happening (usually pylons go down before), and if it does, you'll either A. have lings in time or B. can still transition to slightly delayed 7RR and cancel the lings. I have never faced a situation where this has happened (usually the pylons are thrown down before I commit to standard or 7RR play), and I was a masters Z with 70% winrate ZvP, so I've tested this many, many times and I know what I'm talking about.
I don't have a replay, but I suggest you try it since it seems you haven't considered this option.
That wall off, is IMPOSIBLE in real tournament maps.
Yes, Blizzard ladder maps suck, thanks god right now we have a decent map pool, but what's the big deal about the stupid ladder maps? As a toss, i remember being abused by zergs taking a gold 3rd and getting insane adventages at the time of my pressure. So after getting so freaking pissed for those games, i learned those are just pointless for practice as a real tournament situation, so what's the big deal then?
When some idiot abuse the Blizzard map, just chill and play that weird game.
the correct way to beat this is rush into a nydus and DON'T drone drill as you are wasting needless minerals. you will not break out regardless. The big mistake you made that game is that you do not have enough overlords in position for the nydus. You only had 1 random overseer (which died to a stalker). To nydus correctly, you should have 2-3 overlords in obscure locations so that even if he sees 1 nydus, you can simultaneously pop a nydus from another overlord. You should also just cut drones at like 15 and make pure lings for the nydus.
On September 17 2012 04:46 Belial88 wrote: ^ no offense dude but you are clearly speaking on something you've never tested.... 11 overpool won't get lings out to bust against a standard cannon rush or 3 pylon ramp block at 17, let alone a 10 pylon 10 forge ramp block that occurred in the game. I'm 1500 masters, I'm pretty sure I can overpool correctly.
You're not understanding what I'm saying then. To clarify let me provide my BO:
11OL 11pool drone up send 2nd OL to expo
AT THIS POINT, if you see him starting to throw down pylons:
drone to 16 Queen/extractor/drone/roach warren/drone 2 OL's (at 18/18 supply) when OL's finish, 7 roaches
DO NOT build lings. Now there may be a very narrow window where you've droned to 15 and started your 2 lings to get to 19 when he throws down the pylons, but there's a small chance of this happening (usually pylons go down before), and if it does, you'll either A. have lings in time or B. can still transition to slightly delayed 7RR and cancel the lings. I have never faced a situation where this has happened (usually the pylons are thrown down before I commit to standard or 7RR play), and I was a masters Z with 70% winrate ZvP, so I've tested this many, many times and I know what I'm talking about.
I don't have a replay, but I suggest you try it since it seems you haven't considered this option.
Basically all you are saying is do a 1 base roach all-in if Toss does a ramp block against you. I'll be sure to try it out next time I run into this.
But going 11 overpool is a terrible opener for zvz, in the discussion thread on it a long time ago a lot of blues and pros commented about how terrible it was as an opener (darkfroce, istime, etc). Why would you go 11 pool as your opener in zvp, no one does that in high level play these days.
And 11 overpool will not get lings out in time. I've actually tested this multiple times, and I know you haven't because you are saying something that is incorrect and talking about something i know for a fact you haven't tested. Feel free to post a rep to show otherwise.
So you used to be a masters with a 70% win rate? what does that even mean. sc2gears says that, or that's just how you feel about it? I dont think even most GMs have a 70% win rate, and, just because you have a 70% win rate in low masters against other low masters doesn't really mean much. But what are you saying you've 'tested' many times? That roach rushing works against cannon rush toss? your post isn't really clear, you are just saying you '7RR' (you arent even doing a 7RR build, you are just rushing roaches, its not THE 7rr, which isnt really a great build anyways) and win.
As a toss, i remember being abused by zergs taking a gold 3rd and getting insane adventages at the time of my pressure. So after getting so freaking pissed for those games, i learned those are just pointless for practice as a real tournament situation, so what's the big deal then?
ah i used to abuse metal all the time. yea that was pretty gay for toss, i dont know why every toss didnt just veto that map.
the correct way to beat this is rush into a nydus and DON'T drone drill as you are wasting needless minerals. you will not break out regardless. The big mistake you made that game is that you do not have enough overlords in position for the nydus. You only had 1 random overseer (which died to a stalker). To nydus correctly, you should have 2-3 overlords in obscure locations so that even if he sees 1 nydus, you can simultaneously pop a nydus from another overlord. You should also just cut drones at like 15 and make pure lings for the nydus.
i dont think there was any way i would have gotten a nydus in that guy's base. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Next time I face this, I will probably go with a 1 base ling/bane bust.
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote: Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote: Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
I agree to this.
I agree that both watching and playing as Zerg is boring as shit, but that doesn't mean Protoss should have guaranteed free win strategies if we don't sacrifice a significant amount of our economy every game. How would you feel if for some reason you had to send 2 probes to scout, but leave one on hold at the watch tower for a while then have it come back every single game or risk a guaranteed loss no matter what opener you do?
Cannon rushing is great and is cool to watch, pylon blocks are gay, boring, unfair, and unnecessary IMO.
You aren't using a drone to patrol at the third. You don't necessarily need to patrol the ramp, if you are higher level you can just follow the probe and if he goes toward the ramp, just block the 3rd pylon from going down. So just leave an overlord there. You really need an overlord over your third, unless you just leave your lings at your third instead of being active to find the probe and zealot. Which would be a waste.
If its a 4 player map and you dont send out 2 overlords in 2 different scouting directions that is too a waste, waste of scouting opportunity. That first drone can be near the ramp or follow the probe around the natural (patrol the area, follow probe, however you want to phrase it) to block and spot in time. If the probe goes to the third you can follow the probe, so if he would put pylon up at the third you would see this just as fast as if you would have had an overlord there. And later, you can leave 1 ling to make sure no sneeky pylons are being made at your third/natural. There are safe ways to open and not have your second overlord stay put over your natural/third, but this obv means a certain sacrifise in eco since that drone wont mine for a certain period of time. Having the overlords stay put at scouting locations over your bases might very well be the smartest trade for most players, but there are other options. On another note, if a toss decides to open the pylon block on a 2 player map and you havnt pulled a drone blindly then on some maps you will not be able to get a drone from your mineral line to the ramp in time.
Like i wrote intially, we need to make blizzard add depots in ladder so that we zergs dont have to play out irrelevant scenarios (scenarios that will never happen in a league/tournament game that is) every now and then in ladder. And on top of that the ramp block is just awful game design.
Basically all you are saying is do a 1 base roach all-in if Toss does a ramp block against you. I'll be sure to try it out next time I run into this.
Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a direct counter. That's my point.
But going 11 overpool is a terrible opener for zvz, in the discussion thread on it a long time ago a lot of blues and pros commented about how terrible it was as an opener (darkfroce, istime, etc). Why would you go 11 pool as your opener in zvp, no one does that in high level play these days.
Don't quite get what you're saying, as you yourself said the main reason you stopped going 11pool was because it's not in time to stop a 13forge 17pylon (which as I said can be answered by 7RR instead). And as for it being a "terrible" opener, I don't really think an opener that Nestea used can ever be considered *that* bad. I use 11overpool for many reasons (like the 7RR transition for pylon blocks, early pressure, etc.), it's more a matter of taste to me. But I guess you consider an opener that you used for over a year and stopped doing because of cannon blocks to be terrible?
And I obviously don't use it in zvz, dunno where you got that from.
And 11 overpool will not get lings out in time. I've actually tested this multiple times, and I know you haven't because you are saying something that is incorrect and talking about something i know for a fact you haven't tested. Feel free to post a rep to show otherwise.
It seems like you weren't reading what I wrote. I never claimed this to be the case... my entire point was that with 11overpool you can transition into 7RR with NO lings and bust the cannons easily, without losing anything in the 7RR build. I'm sure a player of your caliber understands how important timings are, and the fact that this opener allows you to get 7 roaches by 4:45 to break the cannons and pressure is pretty key to countering builds like this. Your response in your replay was obviously terrible and gave you no chance of winning the game.
Belial I'm sure you're a better player than me, but I was posting something that has worked for me very well in the past, and I have thought about pretty extensively on how to counter this kind of thing. That being said, I'm sure there's a 14pool variation of 5-7RR that would work nearly as well in this kind of situation. The key against this kind of build is to not lose mining time and to transition smoothly into a clean 1-base roach bust, and your situation will be just fine.
Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a direct counter. That's my point.
It doesn't sound like a great idea, i mean toss will clearly see it coming. I feel like at least with ling/bane there's a chance toss doesn't have sentries in time, but roaches are slow and they will definitely have cannons. I'd love to see a rep. but maybe your right.
And as for it being a "terrible" opener, I don't really think an opener that Nestea used can ever be considered *that* bad. I use 11overpool for many reasons (like the 7RR transition for pylon blocks, early pressure, etc.), it's more a matter of taste to me. But I guess you consider an opener that you used for over a year and stopped doing because of cannon blocks to be terrible?
nestea hasn't used 11 overpool in a very, very long time, and never as a macro opener. could you actually provide a rep where he does it in zvp? i really dont think ive ever seen him, or anyone go 11 overpool in zvp.
yea, i consider an opener i used for about a year and stopped doing because of cannon blocks horrible. looking back on it, back then i thought it was okay, but i didnt realize the economic hit i was taking. I thought the small economic hit i was taking was worth it because it stopped cannon blocks, and also i thought because if i saw a 1/3 gate expand I'd autowin (i used it back when gateway expands were more popular).
But once I got higher ranked, I found out that the reason toss lost every time I rushed mass speedlings with 11 pool was because they were terrible, not because 11 pool was good. that was a big reason why I did the build too.
meant zvp not zvz. typo.
It seems like you weren't reading what I wrote. I never claimed this to be the case... my entire point was that with 11overpool you can transition into 7RR with NO lings and bust the cannons easily, without losing anything in the 7RR build. I'm sure a player of your caliber understands how important timings are, and the fact that this opener allows you to get 7 roaches by 4:45 to break the cannons and pressure is pretty key to countering builds like this. Your response in your replay was obviously terrible and gave you no chance of winning the game.
you stated in your follow-up post that:
[quote] Now there may be a very narrow window where you've droned to 15 and started your 2 lings to get to 19 when he throws down the pylons, but there's a small chance of this happening (usually pylons go down before), and if it does, you'll either A. have lings in time or/quote]
You say to use 11 overpool in zvp. I'd counter that 11 overpool is a terrible macro opening in zvp (if not terrible in every capacity - even if nestea ever used it, which i doubt, he never used it for a macro game, which is what this discussion is about), and it won't get lings out in time to stop the 10/10 or 13/17 ramp block or a standard cannon rush (which you seem to say it can).
Your advice about just not pulling drones to attack the pylons, and going for a roach rush is interesting though. I wish there were some reps of this stuff. If I get a chance I'll try both a bane bust and a roach bust all-in and not pull drones. maybe if a toss wants to test with me, just PM me (or i guess it doesnt need to be toss, anyone can practice this a few times off race or w/e).
I definitely agree drone drilling is not a good response in the least bit, and don't do other builds just because "this might happen".
That: Negates you behind vs the 99.99% of other builds Is worse than other reactions
Just do what the above guy said. Go for a roach bust, you can figure out the best bo to use. He shouldn't have a nexus or forge at home. If he did over prepare, then just double expand because he HAS to make like 3-4 cannons and a forge and gateway. And any 4 gate attempt follow up he does will be stopped by making some more roaches/denying forward pylons, and anything else will be too late to take advantage of your double expand.
What baffles me is that every SINGLE professional tournament has recognized that pylon wall-ins are A) not even close to being fair, and B) really stupid ways to win/play the game.
BLIZZARD?!!????
I watched your replay and I've had it happen to me too (1500 masters last season). This is a much bigger issue and always has been a bigger issue than hellion runbys (which were addressed).
I'm at a loss really, and I'm completely on the same page as you Belial.
On September 20 2012 08:23 Grippe87 wrote: What baffles me is that every SINGLE professional tournament has recognized that pylon wall-ins are A) not even close to being fair, and B) really stupid ways to win/play the game.
BLIZZARD?!!????
I watched your replay and I've had it happen to me too (1500 masters last season). This is a much bigger issue and always has been a bigger issue than hellion runbys (which were addressed).
I'm at a loss really, and I'm completely on the same page as you Belial.
Im still following the thread... and i still think the best way to counter this is to petition blizz.
What to do when probes try to ramp block but you patroled drone. So he gets one pylon up. Zerg don't over react right? let it be. So he puts a cannon up at your nat threatening your hatchery there. If you move your drone at ramp. pylon block. Your lings will not get thsoe pylons as a cannon is already nearing finish behind the wall.
It's just too hard to do all the correct moves because we can't predict is toss is going to cannon or not. The feints are too easily pulled off and overreact is certainly too harmful to econ. If you do not overreact, toss will jump on the oppurtunity to block your ramp
This is simply blizzard being obtuse(doesn't happen that often, but this surely is a case). No real argument can ever stand in favour of 3 pylon block/2 bunker block. Sure, a drone sent to patrol makes those blocks impossible/hard to do but which other strategy gives the opponent such an early disadvantage without even being executed? There is no way to predict this being done, you just have to guess and if you guess right you still are in slightly disadvantage. If you scout a 6 pool early you have an advantage, if you scout proxy 2 racks you have an advantage. Same can be said about every non-broken build. Morevoer i see some other maps have supply depots and i can't really explain this.
On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote: Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
I faced something similar a couple times and won by taking both gases, and rushing to nydus/hydras.
You use an extra queen, and maybe one spine to kill the pylon/cannons. They usually start adding a second layer of cannons that can't be killed for free from high ground. But you are not going to go out the front door anyway, just making him spend.
And don't bother trying to nydus the main. He is expecting that. Nydus somewhere close to his natural.
The reason for hydras, is that they usually followup with voids, expecting roach/bane busts. And hydras are a lot better breaking wallins and collosus should be far away anyway. You set them on hold position to kill the cyber core, gates, whetever, and only then start using the lings.
The sucky thing is that it completely destroys your mechanics. If you do as usual, setting rally points and putting eggs into control groups, your spawning units will just suicide to the cannons at your front door . You have to turn the mechanic's autopilot switch to OFF, leave the rally point to the nydus, have the nydus in a hotkey and spam "unload" once every few seconds.
Another thing i did with success is proxy hatch roaches. But don't hatch on a base, that will always be scouted and probably get cannon rushed. You need to put the hatch not too far away from his base, and outside of the path to any base.
Many times they will not start cannons at the natural until the ones at your natural are about to fall (or it is already been enough time it is obvious you are either about to nydus or 1 base muta, or about to bust with lots of speedlings, whatever.
Then 3 or 4 roaches get there and deal great damage, and then a full inject+ of more roaches.
Uhm, ya ~1350 masters last season. Just because i'm always laughed at for making hydras
By the deceptive way you constructed your post I am not sure if you are mad, or if you are just lying/trolling, but there are some serious flaws with your analysis.
- 12 drone scout and 9 overlord do not get vision of ramp block until it's too late
Actually you don't scout in the replay, maybe you should watch it again. You have 14 supply before the forge even goes down. There was no 12 scout otherwise you would see the (FIRST PYLON THE PROTOSS BUILT) at your ramp and you would have the game won then and there. By not scouting you are greedy, and the reason this CHEESE worked is because of your greed point blank. Maybe the problem is your scout timing, or your sense of entitlement to a greedy hatch first build...
- Drone drilling does not work on every map/spawn including in this game, nor does it work against a forge (as was the case here). Also, everyone knows drone drilling is not effective, because Toss just reinforces the wall-in and by then the cannon is up, and even if you do break, you are further behind economically (15dronesx40minerals/min=600+ mineral lost)
There are drawbacks to your greedy build. One of which is that you are open to potentially being walled off. It's exactly that mindset by zerg that they should not have to scout, or build a pool before 14 that makes them turtle to hive tech every game, if that mindset is the vogue meta then protoss can anticipate your greed and respond with saving minerals to block (as he did without even scouting you in the replay I might add... Which if you do patrol a drone and block this play it definitely makes their build sub optimal and delayed.) You must understand that this is a strategy used in a STRATEGY game, and is very preventable ie send the worker for the hatch in advance outside of your base or to block, or build a faster pool you greedy b******.
- A 9-16 drone patrol would put you down over 80 minerals.
You neither have to send it that early, nor do you have to keep it that late, as he has to have the pylon up already to build the forge. The protoss quits building probes in order to pull this build off. If you scout it then it is incredibly simple to stop and you are astronomically ahead. Again, this is an example of the greed of your build, as you think you should be entitled to not scout whereas the Protoss must scout at 9 every game (and loses the minerals associated with this) on the off chance you are 6 pooling.
- The difference between Toss' 9 probe scout and a 9 drone patrol would be that a 9 probe scout gets to see exactly what Zerg is doing (gas/gasless), harass their expands (block/deny nat and third). A 9 drone patrol would see nothing, and a 9 drone scout would also just only come into Toss' base to see nothing or nothing decisive.
Toss faces an opportunity cost for scouting at 9. You are too greedy to scout, which can pay off (and overwhelming does for zerg), however you will face an occasional game where it will come back to bite you in the ass. If anything, there needs to be more builds to stop hatch first, as the replay shown is simplistic, gimmicky, and situational cheese that gold level players can stop. Not hardly the game breaking design flaw you make it out to be.
- For the last goddamn time don't say drone drilling when it has been proven not to work
This is only a minor point, however you are not doing it properly that is why it's not working. Most of your drills only do 5 dmg as only 1 worker is attacking. That would like a Terran saying splitting marines doesn't mark against banelings and then showing a replay where he has shitty splits. Watch the heath of the forge in the replay, however it should not even come to this if you scout.
On October 02 2012 21:07 GorGor wrote: By the deceptive way you constructed your post I am not sure if you are mad, or if you are just lying/trolling, but there are some serious flaws with your analysis.
- 12 drone scout and 9 overlord do not get vision of ramp block until it's too late
Actually you don't scout in the replay, maybe you should watch it again. You have 14 supply before the forge even goes down. There was no 12 scout otherwise you would see the (FIRST PYLON THE PROTOSS BUILT) at your ramp and you would have the game won then and there. By not scouting you are greedy, and the reason this CHEESE worked is because of your greed point blank. Maybe the problem is your scout timing, or your sense of entitlement to a greedy hatch first build...
- Drone drilling does not work on every map/spawn including in this game, nor does it work against a forge (as was the case here). Also, everyone knows drone drilling is not effective, because Toss just reinforces the wall-in and by then the cannon is up, and even if you do break, you are further behind economically (15dronesx40minerals/min=600+ mineral lost)
There are drawbacks to your greedy build. One of which is that you are open to potentially being walled off. It's exactly that mindset by zerg that they should not have to scout, or build a pool before 14 that makes them turtle to hive tech every game, if that mindset is the vogue meta then protoss can anticipate your greed and respond with saving minerals to block (as he did without even scouting you in the replay I might add... Which if you do patrol a drone and block this play it definitely makes their build sub optimal and delayed.) You must understand that this is a strategy used in a STRATEGY game, and is very preventable ie send the worker for the hatch in advance outside of your base or to block, or build a faster pool you greedy b******.
- A 9-16 drone patrol would put you down over 80 minerals.
You neither have to send it that early, nor do you have to keep it that late, as he has to have the pylon up already to build the forge. The protoss quits building probes in order to pull this build off. If you scout it then it is incredibly simple to stop and you are astronomically ahead. Again, this is an example of the greed of your build, as you think you should be entitled to not scout whereas the Protoss must scout at 9 every game (and loses the minerals associated with this) on the off chance you are 6 pooling.
- The difference between Toss' 9 probe scout and a 9 drone patrol would be that a 9 probe scout gets to see exactly what Zerg is doing (gas/gasless), harass their expands (block/deny nat and third). A 9 drone patrol would see nothing, and a 9 drone scout would also just only come into Toss' base to see nothing or nothing decisive.
Toss faces an opportunity cost for scouting at 9. You are too greedy to scout, which can pay off (and overwhelming does for zerg), however you will face an occasional game where it will come back to bite you in the ass. If anything, there needs to be more builds to stop hatch first, as the replay shown is simplistic, gimmicky, and situational cheese that gold level players can stop. Not hardly the game breaking design flaw you make it out to be.
- For the last goddamn time don't say drone drilling when it has been proven not to work
This is only a minor point, however you are not doing it properly that is why it's not working. Most of your drills only do 5 dmg as only 1 worker is attacking. That would like a Terran saying splitting marines doesn't mark against banelings and then showing a replay where he has shitty splits. Watch the heath of the forge in the replay, however it should not even come to this if you scout.
okay so you think posting your bs in both ramp block threads makes them true or better? you are just bad and lying so stop posting bs!!!!
What would you lose by sending first ol to nat then sending second as you would first. I don't think there is any scouting info you would miss out on that early.
On October 03 2012 06:57 lodeet wrote: What would you lose by sending first ol to nat then sending second as you would first. I don't think there is any scouting info you would miss out on that early.
except game losing scout info on 4 player maps and very beneficial info on 2 player maps (overlord to suicide and one to watch 3rd 4th gas in protoss's natural).
its a huge deal to send your first OR your 2nd overlord to your natural. Imo id rather pull a drone than an overlord.
omg I can't count how many times I've lost games where I have gotten wallen in by protoss. Blizzard should either place a neural supply depot down the ramp or buff 1 base zerg. Honestly, 1 base nydus is sooooo easy to scout for the protoss and are also easily killed by even probes rofl.
On October 03 2012 06:57 lodeet wrote: What would you lose by sending first ol to nat then sending second as you would first. I don't think there is any scouting info you would miss out on that early.
except game losing scout info on 4 player maps and very beneficial info on 2 player maps (overlord to suicide and one to watch 3rd 4th gas in protoss's natural).
its a huge deal to send your first OR your 2nd overlord to your natural. Imo id rather pull a drone than an overlord.
I have not tested it but have you? I am at work so i cant but i am positive you will still be able to position 2 ols with there move speed increase in time to get that neccesary scouting info.
And i know for a fact it is not a huge deal to send your second to nat that is just a preference.
I always send my 9ov to my nat to check for cannonning or whatever and then later to his 3rd, is that wrong? The 16ov can make it to be the suicider on 2p maps at least.
On October 03 2012 09:28 Zrana wrote: I always send my 9ov to my nat to check for cannonning or whatever and then later to his 3rd, is that wrong? The 16ov can make it to be the suicider on 2p maps at least.
In all fairness there is no right or wrong way for overlord placement.. but yes that is correct from what i have been told by asking questions in the pros streams.
Say on cloud kingdom i send first ovie to his expo just where the gas is that over hanging ledge. my 9 ovie to my expo spot to check the scout thats inc. it usually gets there right as the probe gets there. then my 16 ovie gets to the toss 3rd base just below his main.
i cannot hold of a cannon rush that well either, i usually see it late then lose my expo then try a nydus drop with a 1 base roach play
On October 02 2012 21:07 GorGor wrote: By the deceptive way you constructed your post I am not sure if you are mad, or if you are just lying/trolling, but there are some serious flaws with your analysis.
- 12 drone scout and 9 overlord do not get vision of ramp block until it's too late
Actually you don't scout in the replay, maybe you should watch it again. You have 14 supply before the forge even goes down. There was no 12 scout otherwise you would see the (FIRST PYLON THE PROTOSS BUILT) at your ramp and you would have the game won then and there. By not scouting you are greedy, and the reason this CHEESE worked is because of your greed point blank. Maybe the problem is your scout timing, or your sense of entitlement to a greedy hatch first build...
- Drone drilling does not work on every map/spawn including in this game, nor does it work against a forge (as was the case here). Also, everyone knows drone drilling is not effective, because Toss just reinforces the wall-in and by then the cannon is up, and even if you do break, you are further behind economically (15dronesx40minerals/min=600+ mineral lost)
There are drawbacks to your greedy build. One of which is that you are open to potentially being walled off. It's exactly that mindset by zerg that they should not have to scout, or build a pool before 14 that makes them turtle to hive tech every game, if that mindset is the vogue meta then protoss can anticipate your greed and respond with saving minerals to block (as he did without even scouting you in the replay I might add... Which if you do patrol a drone and block this play it definitely makes their build sub optimal and delayed.) You must understand that this is a strategy used in a STRATEGY game, and is very preventable ie send the worker for the hatch in advance outside of your base or to block, or build a faster pool you greedy b******.
- A 9-16 drone patrol would put you down over 80 minerals.
You neither have to send it that early, nor do you have to keep it that late, as he has to have the pylon up already to build the forge. The protoss quits building probes in order to pull this build off. If you scout it then it is incredibly simple to stop and you are astronomically ahead. Again, this is an example of the greed of your build, as you think you should be entitled to not scout whereas the Protoss must scout at 9 every game (and loses the minerals associated with this) on the off chance you are 6 pooling.
- The difference between Toss' 9 probe scout and a 9 drone patrol would be that a 9 probe scout gets to see exactly what Zerg is doing (gas/gasless), harass their expands (block/deny nat and third). A 9 drone patrol would see nothing, and a 9 drone scout would also just only come into Toss' base to see nothing or nothing decisive.
Toss faces an opportunity cost for scouting at 9. You are too greedy to scout, which can pay off (and overwhelming does for zerg), however you will face an occasional game where it will come back to bite you in the ass. If anything, there needs to be more builds to stop hatch first, as the replay shown is simplistic, gimmicky, and situational cheese that gold level players can stop. Not hardly the game breaking design flaw you make it out to be.
- For the last goddamn time don't say drone drilling when it has been proven not to work
This is only a minor point, however you are not doing it properly that is why it's not working. Most of your drills only do 5 dmg as only 1 worker is attacking. That would like a Terran saying splitting marines doesn't mark against banelings and then showing a replay where he has shitty splits. Watch the heath of the forge in the replay, however it should not even come to this if you scout.
This is a very bad post. Its filled with proof that you must be no higher than a bronze. Nobody should even read this much less follow anything contained within it.
Why? Simple. Drone scouting hurts Zergs terribly. Patrolling an additional drone at the ramp also hurts Zergs terribly. Add those 2 together and you're talking about the crucial 8 minute benchmark hitting only 62-65 supply. Far less than what is absolutely REQUIRED to hold off every single Protoss build within their arsenal. Even poorly-executed 2 base plays will decimate any Zerg who doesn't reach at least 70 supply by that time mark, and that's just a minimum mark for staying alive.
If you try to take anything... ANYTHING from the current strategy of Zergs going full-out economy, no Zerg can survive the 2 base all-ins much less macroing up to stop the 3 base pushes because of a simple lack of drones.
Is it a game design flaw? Absolutely. The entire community is finally coming to the same conclusions that a lot of older players and BW pros came to a long time ago. The design of this game is abhorrent.
EPT
) .
that probe was 1 hit away from dying![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hYplh.jpg)
