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Please watch the replay before commenting. A few notes as well -
- 12 drone scout and 9 overlord do not get vision of ramp block until it's too late
- Drone drilling does not work on every map/spawn including in this game, nor does it work against a forge (as was the case here). Also, everyone knows drone drilling is not effective, because Toss just reinforces the wall-in and by then the cannon is up, and even if you do break, you are further behind economically (15dronesx40minerals/min=600+ mineral lost)
- A 9-16 drone patrol would put you down over 80 minerals.
- The difference between Toss' 9 probe scout and a 9 drone patrol would be that a 9 probe scout gets to see exactly what Zerg is doing (gas/gasless), harass their expands (block/deny nat and third). A 9 drone patrol would see nothing, and a 9 drone scout would also just only come into Toss' base to see nothing or nothing decisive.
- For the last goddamn time don't say drone drilling when it has been proven not to work
http://drop.sc/242761
1300 Masters, Cloud Kingdom
He pulls a probe immediately, and puts a 10 pylon at my ramp. By the time my overlord saw vision of my ramp (i watched the replay at least 3 times now, it wasn't any sort of "why didn't you notice a probe/pylon?" crap I could have done), the pylon was done. Even on maps with smaller mains, if I had seen a warping pylon, he'd have that probe right there so he could get there before I could...
to plant his forge there.
Drone drilling is a joke, Toss can reinforce the wall-in, so don't tell me that, not to mention it doesn't work on most spawns, and a drone drill doesn't exactly work on a building like a forge with so much HP.
He then glitches his probe into my main, and is able to fully scout what I would do next, and the only really option I could do is some sort of 1 base nydus. Doesn't exactly work well.
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Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
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Ya, the ramp block is pretty annoying, but you could've drilled the forge much faster or drilled the pylon using the mineral patch from your 3rd base using camera hotkeys.
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On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote:
Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
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On August 24 2012 13:19 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote:
Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder? Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
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Sadly when I get pylon walled, I just end up leaving the game because you're forced to do a one base strat which doesn't work 90% of the time.
With that said, blizz does need to implement a natural supply depot at the bottom of the ramp. Keeping a drone on patrol every game, early game is just an idea that still puts the zerg behind...
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On August 24 2012 13:21 X3GoldDot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 13:19 Infernal_dream wrote:On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote:
Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder? Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall? pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
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Just leave, it's bascially a free win and a waste of time to play against. I've tried everything from 1 base nydus to baneling all ins, to roaches. It takes a very long time to break out even with immediate creep tumor + spine from the high ground. I've never once seen a pro player recover from this being done against someone of their own skill level. It's just an imbalanced strategy that blizzard doesn't know how to fix. GomTV even apologized to Nestea in the last GSL when Byun abused a map that somehow accidentally had lost the depot in an update. I'm all for early rushes but it is just not possible to recover from in any type of reasonable or realistic game. It is also unbelievably hard to stop and can be done on a whim without being preplanned. This is why every major tournament has this implemented on their maps. If it was not a big deal, most tournaments wouldn't modify their maps in such a way. Blizzard doesn't want to add neutural depots to the bottom of maps because it's confusing to new players and also openly admits to a game flaw. They need to make the bottom of ramps unbuildable, end of story.
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You have to follow the probe otherwise he'll get it down all the time. Follow and if you think he's going to do it hold position on the ramp as you pull a few more to prevent it. That's what I do on ladder and I have retarded toss players who call me stupid to do that because they can't get the pylon wall off :D
editing to watch rep give me a sec:
I'll be the first to say that is something I have never seen before wtf lol. For drone drill you should have tried the pylon is your best bet. Other then that you could do a baneling bust follow up.
What I would have done, as soon as you saw that get gas - baneling nest - bust the pylon. That's your only chance really, the thing for his forge is he'll be late on upgrades once you kill it.
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Looks like a map specific ladder problem; i guess from now on you have to drone scout or make some kind of angled scout path for your 1st overlord that passes by your ramp and then goes over to protoss' natural, its not that big a deal if your overlord does a little detour in the beginning.
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On August 24 2012 13:40 blade55555 wrote:
You have to follow the probe otherwise he'll get it down all the time. Follow and if you think he's going to do it hold position on the ramp as you pull a few more to prevent it. That's what I do on ladder and I have retarded toss players who call me stupid to do that because they can't get the pylon wall off :D
Other Important Strategy Forum Rules:
YOU MUST WATCH REPLAYS when they are provided when responding to a thread.
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Ya, the ramp block is pretty annoying, but you could've drilled the forge much faster or drilled the pylon using the mineral patch from your 3rd base using camera hotkeys.
Tried, can't. Doesn't address the problem of toss reinforcing the wall-in either, or if I successfully broke out I'd be more behind because 15x40=600 minerals, which is more than what toss lost.
Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
If you watch the rep, you'd see that I couldn't see the pylon/forge block even with my overlord going straight to the nat and a 12 drone scout. If you say it adds flavor, then you can't possibly have ever faced it. It would make no sense if Zerg had to drone scout on 9 every game simply because of a ramp block.
Or do you think all the tournie maps are broken in favor of Zerg because Zerg isn't forced to pull a drone?
Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall?
Put a drone on patrol from 9 supply to 20 supply, until pool pops? And lose 80 minerals?
It's dealable with a standard 13 forge at home because you just pull 2 drones to deal with the 1 probe scout and you want to make the hatch. It's not balanced, nor is it fun or good game design, but it's dealable.
Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous.
You have to follow the probe otherwise he'll get it down all the time.
Sorry blade, but check out the rep. There is no 'follow the probe' here, he put down a pylon/forge before my overlord got vision of the ramp, and before my 12 drone scout was even close to the ramp.
Looks like a map specific ladder problem; i guess from now on you have to drone scout or make some kind of angled scout path for your 1st overlord that passes by your ramp and then goes over to protoss' natural, its not that big a deal if your overlord does a little detour in the beginning.
Overlord went straight to natural, via the ramp. Please watch the replay...
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On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +
Ya, the ramp block is pretty annoying, but you could've drilled the forge much faster or drilled the pylon using the mineral patch from your 3rd base using camera hotkeys.
Tried, can't. Doesn't address the problem of toss reinforcing the wall-in either, or if I successfully broke out I'd be more behind because 15x40=600 minerals, which is more than what toss lost.
The thing is that if you successfully kills the wall off and he re-wall it behind it, you'll have a much bigger surface area to attack, as well as lings coming.
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Edited above post with my thoughts.
I'll be the first to say that is something I have never seen before wtf lol. For drone drill you should have tried the pylon is your best bet. Other then that you could do a baneling bust follow up (and take bases I know you went banelings but you broke out so late it didn't matter).
What I would have done, as soon as you saw that get gas - baneling nest - bust the pylon. That's your only chance really, the thing for his forge is he'll be late on upgrades once you kill it.
Also that fuck you is well deserved he deserves it imo :D
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^ I tried the pylon, I coulnd't get a drone drill even with using the third base.
Also, drone drilling doesn't work. I don't know why people keep saying that when it's been proven not to work against a competent toss reaction. Toss simply reinforces the wall with a gate/pylons.
Most of the time, you won't be able to drone drill this 2nd building, but, if you are so lucky to even be able to, it won't matter because Toss will have a cannon up, shooting your drones (similiarly, drone drilling doesn't work against terran 2 bunker ramp blocks, as they will have a marine/reaper out when bunkers go down, shooting the drones).
All of this doesn't really matter, because drone drilling puts you further behind economically than Toss will be. 3 pylons or pylon/forge = 250-300 minerals, which is a lot less than 600 minerals lost from 15 workers not mining for a minute (although they won't be mining for more than a minute, actually).
I've been trying to play PvZ and do this myself against someone, see what they do, but so far I've run into only terrans and toss. So much for my 1300 point ranking.
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On August 24 2012 13:58 Belial88 wrote:
^ I tried the pylon, I coulnd't get a drone drill even with using the third base.
Also, drone drilling doesn't work. I don't know why people keep saying that when it's been proven not to work against a competent toss reaction. Toss simply reinforces the wall with a gate/pylons.
Most of the time, you won't be able to drone drill this 2nd building, but, if you are so lucky to even be able to, it won't matter because Toss will have a cannon up, shooting your drones (similiarly, drone drilling doesn't work against terran 2 bunker ramp blocks, as they will have a marine/reaper out when bunkers go down, shooting the drones).
All of this doesn't really matter, because drone drilling puts you further behind economically than Toss will be. 3 pylons or pylon/forge = 250-300 minerals, which is a lot less than 600 minerals lost from 15 workers not mining for a minute (although they won't be mining for more than a minute, actually).
I've been trying to play PvZ and do this myself against someone, see what they do, but so far I've run into only terrans and toss ;/
I know drone drilling doesn't work, if I ever let a korean toss get the 3 pylons up it's over they know about it and know how to counter it.
I dont' even bother with it anymore (on the NA server I might). I just get gas, banelings to get the pylon and then double expand or since his forge is at my ramp I kill that (so he can't build more cannons) and then go for a bust at his natural.
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Just watched the replay.
The way it looked to me: It took you too long to notice the pylon once your overlord scouted (14ish ingame seconds?). You also should have gone for the Pylon first. Even though he can reinforce it, he still can't make any cannons until both the Forge and a Pylon finishes, and you can kill pylons faster than they can build.
Actually if the posts above me are true (you can't kill the pylon by drone drilling with the 3rd) then this is really broken.
At the end of the day you could have played this better, but the fact that stuff like this is even possible prevents Starcraft from ever getting attention as a mainstream spectator sport.
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If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
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On August 24 2012 14:36 eSuBuildings wrote:
If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
Watch the replay. It's a different kind ^_^
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I've dealt with ridiculous forge blocks too. There are certain players that I play where I go 11 overpool for this exact purpose.
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EPT
