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On September 17 2012 04:46 Belial88 wrote:
^ no offense dude but you are clearly speaking on something you've never tested.... 11 overpool won't get lings out to bust against a standard cannon rush or 3 pylon ramp block at 17, let alone a 10 pylon 10 forge ramp block that occurred in the game. I'm 1500 masters, I'm pretty sure I can overpool correctly.
You're not understanding what I'm saying then. To clarify let me provide my BO:
11OL
11pool
drone up
send 2nd OL to expo
AT THIS POINT, if you see him starting to throw down pylons:
drone to 16
Queen/extractor/drone/roach warren/drone
2 OL's (at 18/18 supply)
when OL's finish, 7 roaches
DO NOT build lings. Now there may be a very narrow window where you've droned to 15 and started your 2 lings to get to 19 when he throws down the pylons, but there's a small chance of this happening (usually pylons go down before), and if it does, you'll either A. have lings in time or B. can still transition to slightly delayed 7RR and cancel the lings. I have never faced a situation where this has happened (usually the pylons are thrown down before I commit to standard or 7RR play), and I was a masters Z with 70% winrate ZvP, so I've tested this many, many times and I know what I'm talking about.
I don't have a replay, but I suggest you try it since it seems you haven't considered this option.
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Honestly, what's the big problem??
That wall off, is IMPOSIBLE in real tournament maps.
Yes, Blizzard ladder maps suck, thanks god right now we have a decent map pool, but what's the big deal about the stupid ladder maps?
As a toss, i remember being abused by zergs taking a gold 3rd and getting insane adventages at the time of my pressure. So after getting so freaking pissed for those games, i learned those are just pointless for practice as a real tournament situation, so what's the big deal then?
When some idiot abuse the Blizzard map, just chill and play that weird game.
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the correct way to beat this is rush into a nydus and DON'T drone drill as you are wasting needless minerals. you will not break out regardless. The big mistake you made that game is that you do not have enough overlords in position for the nydus. You only had 1 random overseer (which died to a stalker). To nydus correctly, you should have 2-3 overlords in obscure locations so that even if he sees 1 nydus, you can simultaneously pop a nydus from another overlord. You should also just cut drones at like 15 and make pure lings for the nydus.
hope that helps.
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On September 17 2012 05:12 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 04:46 Belial88 wrote:
^ no offense dude but you are clearly speaking on something you've never tested.... 11 overpool won't get lings out to bust against a standard cannon rush or 3 pylon ramp block at 17, let alone a 10 pylon 10 forge ramp block that occurred in the game. I'm 1500 masters, I'm pretty sure I can overpool correctly. You're not understanding what I'm saying then. To clarify let me provide my BO: 11OL 11pool drone up send 2nd OL to expo AT THIS POINT, if you see him starting to throw down pylons: drone to 16 Queen/extractor/drone/roach warren/drone 2 OL's (at 18/18 supply) when OL's finish, 7 roaches DO NOT build lings. Now there may be a very narrow window where you've droned to 15 and started your 2 lings to get to 19 when he throws down the pylons, but there's a small chance of this happening (usually pylons go down before), and if it does, you'll either A. have lings in time or B. can still transition to slightly delayed 7RR and cancel the lings. I have never faced a situation where this has happened (usually the pylons are thrown down before I commit to standard or 7RR play), and I was a masters Z with 70% winrate ZvP, so I've tested this many, many times and I know what I'm talking about. I don't have a replay, but I suggest you try it since it seems you haven't considered this option.
Basically all you are saying is do a 1 base roach all-in if Toss does a ramp block against you. I'll be sure to try it out next time I run into this.
But going 11 overpool is a terrible opener for zvz, in the discussion thread on it a long time ago a lot of blues and pros commented about how terrible it was as an opener (darkfroce, istime, etc). Why would you go 11 pool as your opener in zvp, no one does that in high level play these days.
And 11 overpool will not get lings out in time. I've actually tested this multiple times, and I know you haven't because you are saying something that is incorrect and talking about something i know for a fact you haven't tested. Feel free to post a rep to show otherwise.
So you used to be a masters with a 70% win rate? what does that even mean. sc2gears says that, or that's just how you feel about it? I dont think even most GMs have a 70% win rate, and, just because you have a 70% win rate in low masters against other low masters doesn't really mean much. But what are you saying you've 'tested' many times? That roach rushing works against cannon rush toss? your post isn't really clear, you are just saying you '7RR' (you arent even doing a 7RR build, you are just rushing roaches, its not THE 7rr, which isnt really a great build anyways) and win.
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As a toss, i remember being abused by zergs taking a gold 3rd and getting insane adventages at the time of my pressure. So after getting so freaking pissed for those games, i learned those are just pointless for practice as a real tournament situation, so what's the big deal then?
ah i used to abuse metal all the time. yea that was pretty gay for toss, i dont know why every toss didnt just veto that map.
the correct way to beat this is rush into a nydus and DON'T drone drill as you are wasting needless minerals. you will not break out regardless. The big mistake you made that game is that you do not have enough overlords in position for the nydus. You only had 1 random overseer (which died to a stalker). To nydus correctly, you should have 2-3 overlords in obscure locations so that even if he sees 1 nydus, you can simultaneously pop a nydus from another overlord. You should also just cut drones at like 15 and make pure lings for the nydus.
i dont think there was any way i would have gotten a nydus in that guy's base. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Next time I face this, I will probably go with a 1 base ling/bane bust.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 13:28 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 13:21 X3GoldDot wrote:On August 24 2012 13:19 Infernal_dream wrote:On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote:
Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder? Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall? pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to? Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
I agree to this.
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On September 17 2012 11:47 shin_toss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 13:28 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 13:21 X3GoldDot wrote:On August 24 2012 13:19 Infernal_dream wrote:On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote:
Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder? Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall? pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to? Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing. I agree to this.
I agree that both watching and playing as Zerg is boring as shit, but that doesn't mean Protoss should have guaranteed free win strategies if we don't sacrifice a significant amount of our economy every game. How would you feel if for some reason you had to send 2 probes to scout, but leave one on hold at the watch tower for a while then have it come back every single game or risk a guaranteed loss no matter what opener you do?
Cannon rushing is great and is cool to watch, pylon blocks are gay, boring, unfair, and unnecessary IMO.
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On September 17 2012 04:46 Belial88 wrote:
You aren't using a drone to patrol at the third. You don't necessarily need to patrol the ramp, if you are higher level you can just follow the probe and if he goes toward the ramp, just block the 3rd pylon from going down. So just leave an overlord there. You really need an overlord over your third, unless you just leave your lings at your third instead of being active to find the probe and zealot. Which would be a waste.
If its a 4 player map and you dont send out 2 overlords in 2 different scouting directions that is too a waste, waste of scouting opportunity. That first drone can be near the ramp or follow the probe around the natural (patrol the area, follow probe, however you want to phrase it) to block and spot in time. If the probe goes to the third you can follow the probe, so if he would put pylon up at the third you would see this just as fast as if you would have had an overlord there. And later, you can leave 1 ling to make sure no sneeky pylons are being made at your third/natural. There are safe ways to open and not have your second overlord stay put over your natural/third, but this obv means a certain sacrifise in eco since that drone wont mine for a certain period of time. Having the overlords stay put at scouting locations over your bases might very well be the smartest trade for most players, but there are other options. On another note, if a toss decides to open the pylon block on a 2 player map and you havnt pulled a drone blindly then on some maps you will not be able to get a drone from your mineral line to the ramp in time.
Like i wrote intially, we need to make blizzard add depots in ladder so that we zergs dont have to play out irrelevant scenarios (scenarios that will never happen in a league/tournament game that is) every now and then in ladder. And on top of that the ramp block is just awful game design.
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On September 17 2012 11:37 Belial88 wrote:
Basically all you are saying is do a 1 base roach all-in if Toss does a ramp block against you. I'll be sure to try it out next time I run into this.
Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a direct counter. That's my point.
But going 11 overpool is a terrible opener for zvz, in the discussion thread on it a long time ago a lot of blues and pros commented about how terrible it was as an opener (darkfroce, istime, etc). Why would you go 11 pool as your opener in zvp, no one does that in high level play these days.
Don't quite get what you're saying, as you yourself said the main reason you stopped going 11pool was because it's not in time to stop a 13forge 17pylon (which as I said can be answered by 7RR instead). And as for it being a "terrible" opener, I don't really think an opener that Nestea used can ever be considered *that* bad. I use 11overpool for many reasons (like the 7RR transition for pylon blocks, early pressure, etc.), it's more a matter of taste to me. But I guess you consider an opener that you used for over a year and stopped doing because of cannon blocks to be terrible?
And I obviously don't use it in zvz, dunno where you got that from.
And 11 overpool will not get lings out in time. I've actually tested this multiple times, and I know you haven't because you are saying something that is incorrect and talking about something i know for a fact you haven't tested. Feel free to post a rep to show otherwise.
It seems like you weren't reading what I wrote. I never claimed this to be the case... my entire point was that with 11overpool you can transition into 7RR with NO lings and bust the cannons easily, without losing anything in the 7RR build. I'm sure a player of your caliber understands how important timings are, and the fact that this opener allows you to get 7 roaches by 4:45 to break the cannons and pressure is pretty key to countering builds like this. Your response in your replay was obviously terrible and gave you no chance of winning the game.
Belial I'm sure you're a better player than me, but I was posting something that has worked for me very well in the past, and I have thought about pretty extensively on how to counter this kind of thing. That being said, I'm sure there's a 14pool variation of 5-7RR that would work nearly as well in this kind of situation. The key against this kind of build is to not lose mining time and to transition smoothly into a clean 1-base roach bust, and your situation will be just fine.
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Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a direct counter. That's my point.
It doesn't sound like a great idea, i mean toss will clearly see it coming. I feel like at least with ling/bane there's a chance toss doesn't have sentries in time, but roaches are slow and they will definitely have cannons. I'd love to see a rep. but maybe your right.
And as for it being a "terrible" opener, I don't really think an opener that Nestea used can ever be considered *that* bad. I use 11overpool for many reasons (like the 7RR transition for pylon blocks, early pressure, etc.), it's more a matter of taste to me. But I guess you consider an opener that you used for over a year and stopped doing because of cannon blocks to be terrible?
nestea hasn't used 11 overpool in a very, very long time, and never as a macro opener. could you actually provide a rep where he does it in zvp? i really dont think ive ever seen him, or anyone go 11 overpool in zvp.
yea, i consider an opener i used for about a year and stopped doing because of cannon blocks horrible. looking back on it, back then i thought it was okay, but i didnt realize the economic hit i was taking. I thought the small economic hit i was taking was worth it because it stopped cannon blocks, and also i thought because if i saw a 1/3 gate expand I'd autowin (i used it back when gateway expands were more popular).
But once I got higher ranked, I found out that the reason toss lost every time I rushed mass speedlings with 11 pool was because they were terrible, not because 11 pool was good. that was a big reason why I did the build too.
meant zvp not zvz. typo.
It seems like you weren't reading what I wrote. I never claimed this to be the case... my entire point was that with 11overpool you can transition into 7RR with NO lings and bust the cannons easily, without losing anything in the 7RR build. I'm sure a player of your caliber understands how important timings are, and the fact that this opener allows you to get 7 roaches by 4:45 to break the cannons and pressure is pretty key to countering builds like this. Your response in your replay was obviously terrible and gave you no chance of winning the game.
you stated in your follow-up post that:
[quote] Now there may be a very narrow window where you've droned to 15 and started your 2 lings to get to 19 when he throws down the pylons, but there's a small chance of this happening (usually pylons go down before), and if it does, you'll either A. have lings in time or/quote]
You say to use 11 overpool in zvp. I'd counter that 11 overpool is a terrible macro opening in zvp (if not terrible in every capacity - even if nestea ever used it, which i doubt, he never used it for a macro game, which is what this discussion is about), and it won't get lings out in time to stop the 10/10 or 13/17 ramp block or a standard cannon rush (which you seem to say it can).
Your advice about just not pulling drones to attack the pylons, and going for a roach rush is interesting though. I wish there were some reps of this stuff. If I get a chance I'll try both a bane bust and a roach bust all-in and not pull drones. maybe if a toss wants to test with me, just PM me (or i guess it doesnt need to be toss, anyone can practice this a few times off race or w/e).
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Just watched replay.
I definitely agree drone drilling is not a good response in the least bit, and don't do other builds just because "this might happen".
That:
Negates you behind vs the 99.99% of other builds
Is worse than other reactions
Just do what the above guy said. Go for a roach bust, you can figure out the best bo to use. He shouldn't have a nexus or forge at home. If he did over prepare, then just double expand because he HAS to make like 3-4 cannons and a forge and gateway. And any 4 gate attempt follow up he does will be stopped by making some more roaches/denying forward pylons, and anything else will be too late to take advantage of your double expand.
If not, and he played greedy, go for the kill.
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What baffles me is that every SINGLE professional tournament has recognized that pylon wall-ins are A) not even close to being fair, and B) really stupid ways to win/play the game.
BLIZZARD?!!????
I watched your replay and I've had it happen to me too (1500 masters last season). This is a much bigger issue and always has been a bigger issue than hellion runbys (which were addressed).
I'm at a loss really, and I'm completely on the same page as you Belial.
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On September 20 2012 08:23 Grippe87 wrote:
What baffles me is that every SINGLE professional tournament has recognized that pylon wall-ins are A) not even close to being fair, and B) really stupid ways to win/play the game.
BLIZZARD?!!????
I watched your replay and I've had it happen to me too (1500 masters last season). This is a much bigger issue and always has been a bigger issue than hellion runbys (which were addressed).
I'm at a loss really, and I'm completely on the same page as you Belial.
Im still following the thread... and i still think the best way to counter this is to petition blizz.
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What to do when probes try to ramp block but you patroled drone. So he gets one pylon up. Zerg don't over react right? let it be. So he puts a cannon up at your nat threatening your hatchery there. If you move your drone at ramp. pylon block. Your lings will not get thsoe pylons as a cannon is already nearing finish behind the wall.
It's just too hard to do all the correct moves because we can't predict is toss is going to cannon or not. The feints are too easily pulled off and overreact is certainly too harmful to econ. If you do not overreact, toss will jump on the oppurtunity to block your ramp
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Where are the neutral supplydepots blizzard? 
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This is simply blizzard being obtuse(doesn't happen that often, but this surely is a case). No real argument can ever stand in favour of 3 pylon block/2 bunker block. Sure, a drone sent to patrol makes those blocks impossible/hard to do but which other strategy gives the opponent such an early disadvantage without even being executed? There is no way to predict this being done, you just have to guess and if you guess right you still are in slightly disadvantage. If you scout a 6 pool early you have an advantage, if you scout proxy 2 racks you have an advantage. Same can be said about every non-broken build. Morevoer i see some other maps have supply depots and i can't really explain this.
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finally make a thread on this on the bnet forums us please. dont have an account. this needs to be fucking fixed already!
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On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote:
Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder?
I agree
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Cannon blocks suck
Some ideas...
I faced something similar a couple times and won by taking both gases, and rushing to nydus/hydras.
You use an extra queen, and maybe one spine to kill the pylon/cannons. They usually start adding a second layer of cannons that can't be killed for free from high ground. But you are not going to go out the front door anyway, just making him spend.
And don't bother trying to nydus the main. He is expecting that. Nydus somewhere close to his natural.
The reason for hydras, is that they usually followup with voids, expecting roach/bane busts. And hydras are a lot better breaking wallins and collosus should be far away anyway. You set them on hold position to kill the cyber core, gates, whetever, and only then start using the lings.
The sucky thing is that it completely destroys your mechanics. If you do as usual, setting rally points and putting eggs into control groups, your spawning units will just suicide to the cannons at your front door  . You have to turn the mechanic's autopilot switch to OFF, leave the rally point to the nydus, have the nydus in a hotkey and spam "unload" once every few seconds.
Another thing i did with success is proxy hatch roaches. But don't hatch on a base, that will always be scouted and probably get cannon rushed. You need to put the hatch not too far away from his base, and outside of the path to any base.
Many times they will not start cannons at the natural until the ones at your natural are about to fall (or it is already been enough time it is obvious you are either about to nydus or 1 base muta, or about to bust with lots of speedlings, whatever.
Then 3 or 4 roaches get there and deal great damage, and then a full inject+ of more roaches.
Uhm, ya ~1350 masters last season. Just because i'm always laughed at for making hydras
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EPT
