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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I think because the way the 4 pylons sort of walled in my drones, when I went to drone drill with them, they couldn't spread out because the 2 pylons sort of walled them in. I'll have to test this out or something. I'm wondering if you can drone drill against a 4 pylon ramp block on every spawn. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
blizzard HAS to fucking deal with this. its so annoying how they give free wins away to complete retards. lets make some kind of mass email to blizzard or something like that. there is no reason not to get rid of this imbalanced shit like every tournament does. if someone with good english skills could write a short standard email everybody can send to blizzard would be nice. then just copy that text and mail blizzard. takes 30 seconds and perhaps they will change it finally. | ||
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
Catz does this when he is forced on one base. He beaks the wall with a queen and a spine. He techs quickly to infestors. He usually has his natural when he moves out. I think he moves out with like 5-7 infestors and a bunch of lings. He uses infested terrans when he's attacked the protoss. He also usually takes his third after he attack I think as he would have tons of minerals. | ||
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Calypso123
United States42 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
What I remember, is that Zergs started to get absolutely smashed by Toss 2 base colossus deathballs because there was nothing they could do, as well as VR/Colossus. Around this time, 2 things also happened that 'balanced' the win rate for zerg - roach/ling all-ins became very popular and strong, and infestors got buffed along with a 9 range NP, which made it possible for Zerg to play on even bases with Toss because infestors could counter colossus so well. Np was nerfed, but around that time, Zergs started going fast third before lair. Muta play started to become the big thing. People just forgot about deathballs because infestors made them unpopular, and they never came back because mutas started to get big, which beats deathballs too. Fast third play in general got popular, which is stronger than 9 range 2 base infestor play was anyways. 2 base infestor was prone to being hard countered as well, but at the time, Toss never thought past all-inning off 2 base or a 3 base deathball. Nowadays you try to go 2 base infestor, Toss will just go 3 bases, go for a colossus timing, and take a fourth during the push because they aren't so all-in anymore. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On September 11 2012 01:58 Decendos wrote: okay guys we have to push this. its just fucking retarded to lose games vs idiots that have no skill and are far less players. blizzard HAS to fucking deal with this. its so annoying how they give free wins away to complete retards. lets make some kind of mass email to blizzard or something like that. there is no reason not to get rid of this imbalanced shit like every tournament does. if someone with good english skills could write a short standard email everybody can send to blizzard would be nice. then just copy that text and mail blizzard. takes 30 seconds and perhaps they will change it finally. Maybe I am too optimistic, but even as a Zerg player myself (check my past posts if you think I am lying Protoss/Terran), I am fine with not having the neutral depot. Yes, ramp block is OP without a doubt. Ramp blocked = gg unless blocker is absolutely terrible. However, when Blizzard tries to balance the game, the results from these ramp block games are included in the stats, which means that Zerg is allowed to be OP in another field to compensate for this ramp block. Say, Protoss/Terran is favored by 0.5% due to the lack of neutral depot, then something in Zerg arsenal make up for it by 0.5%. BL/infestor is allowed to be strong maybe because these silly ramp block games exist. Without them in stats, Blizzard might have already nerfed some of the Zerg units. I may be seeing the world differently, but when I see those ramp blocks, I appreciate my opponent for his/her cooperation to Zerg buff. Since tournaments do have neutral depot, Zerg is legidimately allowed to be OP in tournaments because of these ladder players who try to ramp block. Why don't us Zerg players show some love to those guys instead of hating them? They do us favor in the long run. If anything, it is other Protoss/Terran players who have to criticize ramp blocking fellow players for preventing Zerg nerf. But it seems many Protoss/Terran insist not having neutral depot, so I personally take it that they are OK with Zerg being OP in mid-late game. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If Zerg is OP, then zerg is OP. It should be balanced, nerfed, buffed, accordingly. That doesn't change the fact that ramp block is bad game design either. Anyways this isn't really supposed to be about balance discussion. I'm just addressing your point. Also, I think Blizzard largely goes by tournament stats, not just ladder. You commonly see them cite tournament games for balance decisions. id rather lose a few more games because my race isn't so OP than lose to ramp blocks which i can't do much about if it goes down. | ||
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Harstem
Netherlands262 Posts
On September 11 2012 13:44 Belial88 wrote: ^ It's terrible game design to balance a game because "okay well Zerg is completely OP, but everything is okay because 3% of the games, Toss autowins just because of the build they choose irregardless of the build Zerg chooses". It is not terrible game design. Just pull a drone even if it costs u 80 minerals. Sometimes you gotta make sacrifices to be safe. It is sad that tournament maps use supply depots on bottom of the ramps. Protosses had to double scout on maps like Tal Darim and entombed. This also cost us a lot of minerals. | ||
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Discarder
Philippines411 Posts
On September 04 2012 22:01 Don.681 wrote: Why not 1st ovie on the ramp then second ovie to scout? If you see the pylon you can send 4 drones to kill it right? Speaking as Protoss here though. The 1st ovie placement to the toss nat is very crucial, it is important to confirm if the toss is doing the FE and the order his buildings are placed. Toss can do a variety of openings (greedy or aggressive) at that point and to rule out everything because of a feared cannon rush is just retarded. No zerg thinks like that. Zerg is already forced to 14 pool because of this shit and still risks getting blocked. "If we see the pylon" is not the case here. To pull 4 drones is just significant mining time lost for just a hundred mineral pylon which toss usually plants at the nat. The case is protoss could easily plant 3 pylons to block your ramp once toss gets 300 minerals after forge. As I said, even 14 pool is blocked by this. @OP The solution is simple, when probe arrives at your base, @15 supply, send 1 drone to follow the probe and send 1 ling instead after it pops and 1 ling to scout elsewhere. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On September 11 2012 13:44 Belial88 wrote: ^ It's terrible game design to balance a game because "okay well Zerg is completely OP, but everything is okay because 3% of the games, Toss autowins just because of the build they choose irregardless of the build Zerg chooses". If Zerg is OP, then zerg is OP. It should be balanced, nerfed, buffed, accordingly. That doesn't change the fact that ramp block is bad game design either. Anyways this isn't really supposed to be about balance discussion. I'm just addressing your point. Also, I think Blizzard largely goes by tournament stats, not just ladder. You commonly see them cite tournament games for balance decisions. id rather lose a few more games because my race isn't so OP than lose to ramp blocks which i can't do much about if it goes down. I agree with you. I am just perplexed by the fact that many protoss/terran players for some reason support not having neutral depot there when it probably favors zerg if you are somoene who never tries the ramp block strategies. I see so many QQ about Zerg, yet they support strong Zerg? Maybe they are shortsighted and think no depot there favors Protoss/Terran? Well, sorry I didn't mean to talk deep about balance. It is probably good for all of us to have a neutral depot there not because of balance, but because of game design as you pointed out. Another perspective. As concluded in this thread, first overlord at ramp or drone patrolling can prevent this ramp blockage, and many Protoss players insist that Zerg should do this using various Protoss counterpart examples like early probe scout etc. However, having to sacrifice 80mineral or whatever amount is not what frustrates Zerg players on ladder. What frustrates people, I think, is the fact that you have to do something "different" from what DRG or Stephano does in tournaments. Say, I could spend 5 hours watching multiple DRG replays to figure out his overlord sending pattern, droning/hatchery timing etc. then all those researches are useless when I have to patrol a drone or send first overlord to the ramp. As for Protoss counterpart, you can spend 5 hours watching Seed's probe/scout timing and do exactly the same to improve because virtually nothing is different. If top pros have to send first overlord to the ramp/patrol drones just like us ladder only players, then counter ramp block becomes a legitimate skill/strategy pros develop, which in turn people can folllow. It hurts strategy development if pros and non-pros have to do things differently. Currently, Zerg players who fear this ramp block are forced to play a different game from what pros play. Also, when pros practice on ladder, they have to either 1. ignore ramp block because it never happens in tournaments and accept to waste ladder points every once in a while to face worse opponents or 2. take ramp block into account and play differntly on ladder. Come to think of it, I think that is the crux of this whole issue. Btw, first guy who came up with that forge/pylon ramp block is really smart ^^. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
Regarding the argument that cheese isn't suitable for professional play: Broodwar had plenty of viable cheese builds, and was considered highly balanced. It's good to have cheese available, because it adds variety to the game. Watching FFE->Colo->3rd->Vortex versus 3hatch no gas->roach->infestor->broodlord game after game can be a little dull, and the question of "will it be cheese" adds excitement. | ||
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
On September 11 2012 15:43 Acritter wrote: Out of curiosity, have there EVER been any major tournaments where this Pylon at ramp has been abused? The only times I can think of where lack of neutral depot had any effect were a game with IdrA way back in the beta (he broke down the barrier comfortably and then lost due to other reasons) and more recently with NesTea losing a game in Code S because he got dual Bunker blocked (the wrong map was being used so he wasn't expecting it at all, and this isn't ZvP in any case). So do we have any actual evidence that these Pylon blocks are overpowered, instead of just being strong because we don't have professional reactions to fall back on? It's very possible that they're balanced (if cheesy), and only seem overpowered because the tournament scene hasn't experienced them for most of the game's existence. Regarding the argument that cheese isn't suitable for professional play: Broodwar had plenty of viable cheese builds, and was considered highly balanced. It's good to have cheese available, because it adds variety to the game. Watching FFE->Colo->3rd->Vortex versus 3hatch no gas->roach->infestor->broodlord game after game can be a little dull, and the question of "will it be cheese" adds excitement. I don't know the specifics of the history of ramp block, but I know that Idra gg'd a game 10 seconds after he discovered he was bunker blocked (on Metalopolis IIRC). I truly believe that this cheese is really OP, and this is backed by pro players. My main guess about why tournaments map have put supply depots at the bottom of the ramp is because this particular cheese is a skill-less cheese. 6 pooling your opponent? There's a foot long wall of text about how to do it properly. Cannon rushing? Idem. You still need to micro a decent number of stuff to make the cheese work, especially at high level of play. However, this very specific cheese need around two to three seconds. That's all. Two to three seconds and the game is over. I don't mind when I get 6 pooled, because I can defend it by microing my workers (even if I go CC first). But I just can't do anything against this particular cheese, this is why neutral depots. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
1. the game is balanced around top level where neutral depots are standard! even on top level as the last TLPD stats show PvZ is slightly P favored, so a neutral depot in ladder will do something FOR ladder balance. 2. this is NOT a regular cheesebuild! nobody has something against proxy 2 gate or a standard cannon rush because both can be countered THE SAME WAY as on top level for which blizzard balances. ramp block is NOT the same as the described cheeses since having a drone patrole to prevent it means 100 minerals loss = 2 drones = 4-8 drones @8:00 and on top level that is NOT necessary. the problem is this difference from ladder to tournaments (where blizzard balances!!!!) 3. since every tournament and pro accepts it as imbalanced there is not a single reason for blizzard not to implement neutral depots! 4. it prevents all high master/GM players from good training in the ladder! scarlett even made a poster that said something like "implement neutral depot on ladder" last time she played and hold it in the camera right before/after her game! please guys. this is a skill game and not a random luck/abusive game. therefore it should be high risk/high reward or low risk/low reward and NOT low risk/instawin. if it would be like: if zerg patrols at ramp toss has taken damage since he cant make the strategy he wanted to do it would be fine. but if zerg patrols toss has taken ZERO damage = not balanced! | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
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SweKenZo
Sweden82 Posts
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Northern_iight
Canada363 Posts
I still manage to win the game with 1 base roach because my opponent is terrible. He continued to invest in many gateways and a robo to go for 6 gate sentry/immortal. my timing hits before that and I destroy the cybernetic core at the wall and pretty much gg him. If he was a half decent player that didn't resort to foolish pylon blocks he wouldn't had sentries earlier. Him being dumb and greedy didn't build any. My point is, after the pylon block, any half decent protoss would play super safe if he knows you're staying one base. (he knows this because his cannons weren't destroyed until I killed them with 10 roaches). My 1 base attack also comes past the 9 min mark so it's plenty of time to make extra cannons/sentries. If a pylon block goes up it's nearly impossible to stop. Only way to win is because the toss got to your MMR with cheesy cannon rushes and 2 base all ins and too dumb to actaully play the game with a brain. Most of the time protoss is smart enough to know he's WAY ahead when he has two bases running and zerg is still on one base and haven't even started a second. | ||
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jdsowa
405 Posts
If Blizzard is afraid that bronze players might get confused by the appearance of a neutral supply depot in a ZvP match, then how about making it so that overlords start out with the ability to carry and drop 1 unit at a time (ventral _sac_ instead of sacs). This would allow zerg to leave their base and expand, but because of the slow speed of OLs, would not have the potential for abuse. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 12 2012 03:10 jdsowa wrote: Utterly ridiculous that this is still possible on the map pool. If Blizzard is afraid that bronze players might get confused by the appearance of a neutral supply depot in a ZvP match, then how about making it so that overlords start out with the ability to carry and drop 1 unit at a time (ventral _sac_ instead of sacs). This would allow zerg to leave their base and expand, but because of the slow speed of OLs, would not have the potential for abuse. While I like the general idea, this would be abused to no end. 1 base roach would be undefendable if you open forge. With 2 overlords you could elevator a 7rr in and just destroy Protoss for free I'd like some solution though, of course. It's pretty stupid. | ||
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
Also, the last time I saw this happen in a tournament or on a stream was over a year ago, and think about it this way: if the protoss fails at doing this cheese, they are infinitely behind and should automatically lose the game if the zerg is any kind of competant. There is no need for a depot below the ramp, you are just playing poorly. The only reason why tournaments use them is so they can force longer games in some match ups or cut down on cheese options for the fans (i actually enjoy cheesey games more than macro games  ). | ||
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