EPT[H]ZvP Ramp Blocked - Page 12
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
Loljk, and on a serious note I saw... Oz? Wall off his natural with a pylon-> (nexus not as part of wall) -> gate -> gate -> core -> pylon wall on Antiga vs Stephano, pretty cool. Granted it's not an FFE, it's actually better. So it's not impossible to wall off, it only takes a few more buildings. You can always wall the top of the ramp with 350 minerals of investment...... | ||
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Alphax
United States6 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230503 | ||
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Babru
196 Posts
It makes no sense that a zerg has to play certain overly safe openings in ladder (early drone patrol), that ofc punnishes your eco a great deal, when the game is balanced mostly based on tournament play/results. And the games that evolve out of that early blocking scenario are basically a waste of time, its like playing and practising a different game that you will have no use of when it actually matters; tournaments/leagues. I honestly feel bad for the terrans and protosses playing these gamble block openings, they spend their time doing this type of thing when they could have been practising an opening that actually has relevance instead. | ||
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
ive played this on my tossaccount up to gm on most of the 2 player maps. after loosing to rubbish nydus allins (not even into my base) i just 5 gate blink stalker pressure into expand every single game and it worked well. i didnt go for 10 proxy pylon + forge tho since that puts you economical pretty far behind. i just went for normal 9 scout and walled him in then with 3 pylons. On September 03 2012 15:47 Babru wrote: Blizzard needs to fix this because its irrelevant to practise scenarios in ladder that cant occur when it actually matters; in tournaments/leagues. It makes no sense that a zerg has to play certain overly safe openings in ladder (early drone patrol), that ofc punnishes your eco a great deal, when the game is balanced mostly based on tournament play/results. And the games that evolve out of that early blocking scenario are basically a waste of time, its like playing and practising a different game that you will have no use of when it actually matters; tournaments/leagues. I honestly feel bad for the terrans and protosses playing these gamble block openings, they spend their time doing this type of thing when they could have been practising an opening that actually has relevance instead. so u want a game where u play 24/7 exactly the same shit and where adjusting doesnt mean a thing? go tetris maybe :D User was warned for this post | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
It's not a question of each game should be exactly the same, no one complain in this threads about rush/all in/cheese in general, like proxy 2 gates, canon rush and so on because they are legit strat, however this one is hugely brocken and really easy to pull off and that's why everyone complain about. Be certain that if there wasn't supply deppot on the ramp on tournament map, you would see 80% winrate in PvZ and every pros doing this. | ||
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Babru
196 Posts
On September 03 2012 17:43 Bad_Habit wrote: just to get ur basic knowledge going. dronedrilling works on most of the maps, you just have to know which mineralfield to use. ive played this on my tossaccount up to gm on most of the 2 player maps. after loosing to rubbish nydus allins (not even into my base) i just 5 gate blink stalker pressure into expand every single game and it worked well. i didnt go for 10 proxy pylon + forge tho since that puts you economical pretty far behind. i just went for normal 9 scout and walled him in then with 3 pylons. so u want a game where u play 24/7 exactly the same shit and where adjusting doesnt mean a thing? go tetris maybe :D I do like adjusting and variance in tactics etc. But like everyone has pointed out, and that you must be aware of yourself or you are just playing stupid, the block cheese is so simple to pull off (its just a matter of gambling, not of execution) and basically in theory ends the game right there (assuming both players are on the same level). There is no logical adjusting to do once it has happend, if you deal with it the best way you can you will come out with a situation thats equivalent of starting the game with ~4 drones vs 6 probes/scvs or so, and this is why all leagues and tournaments have removed the option to do these block gambles. The only thing to do vs it is preventing it from happening and that means always sacrifising an early drone to patrol the area. So blizzard would then need to balance the game based on this slightly weaker eco state zerg where zergs always use an early drone for patrolling the ramp (and if the zerg also wants to drone scout thats 2 drones thats not mining during the early game). Its really simple to understand. The drone drill doesnt work, see the post above this one and many other posts explaining it. | ||
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
in general for sure you guys are right | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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Shibbxyz
United Kingdom94 Posts
You can use some drones to attack the wall to weaken it because there will be no cannon for a long time, and then you can sit on the high ground and kill the buildings for free with either spines queens or some fast roaches User was warned for this post | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
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Ralethon
United States141 Posts
On September 03 2012 22:54 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Why are there so many trolls in this thread? Because the thread was written knowing theres no good answer and trolls love poking frusterated people. Hey guys, Do you think if enough people requested it we could get TL to start a petition to send to blizzard to change it? To me this seem to be the best way to counter it  | ||
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hughie-d
45 Posts
They will expect a nydus play, so maybe threaten with a overseer constantly skirting outside his base, I would also move straight into spire tech, the toss wont be doing a gateway push behind this, its robo or stargate. The reason being this strat allows him safely tech up. I feel for early game you will be stared of minerals so maybe fast tech to infestors might work.... but your screwed if collosus are out | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 04 2012 09:52 Ralethon wrote: Because the thread was written knowing theres no good answer and trolls love poking frusterated people. Hey guys, Do you think if enough people requested it we could get TL to start a petition to send to blizzard to change it? To me this seem to be the best way to counter it Not really. I think MrLlama has brought some amazing discussion into this thread. His opening doesn't seem to put you on even footing at all, but it can keep you in the game, and despite ramp block being broken, it's a way to continue playing the game, even if it's from behind against a map exploit. It's especially strong given that ramp blockers tend to be total morons who must continue to all in over and over, and his ideas seem to capitalize on exactly those kinds of idiots. I think there's also been some interesting stuff provided like sending initial overlord to ramp real quick, or having your 10 drone check the ramp real quick, as in right when overlord pops but at that critical timing when your overlord doesn't see the main ramp yet, when that pylon is going down. | ||
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Elexys
5 Posts
I'm clearly not as good as you Belial but there's something I do and it has won me many games: I like to send my second overlord right over my expo, and then sending it towards his base. Sometimes I see proxy gates (especially in Cloud Kingdom and Ohana), sometimes I see and early probe so I just send a drone down there to check if he's not doing a cannon contain. | ||
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Ralethon
United States141 Posts
On September 04 2012 10:30 Belial88 wrote: Not really. I think MrLlama has brought some amazing discussion into this thread. His opening doesn't seem to put you on even footing at all, but it can keep you in the game, and despite ramp block being broken, it's a way to continue playing the game, even if it's from behind against a map exploit. It's especially strong given that ramp blockers tend to be total morons who must continue to all in over and over, and his ideas seem to capitalize on exactly those kinds of idiots. I think there's also been some interesting stuff provided like sending initial overlord to ramp real quick, or having your 10 drone check the ramp real quick, as in right when overlord pops but at that critical timing when your overlord doesn't see the main ramp yet, when that pylon is going down. I meant no disrespect and i agree there are some interesting concepts here, i just dont think were going to come up with anything even close to that amazing guide you made on holding early pools  ive had this thread on the mind since it was first posted and cant concieve of any way to come out even with the protoss. If just staying alive past the 14 min (2 base allin) mark is the goal then id reccomend building and inbase macro hatch and a spine to break the contain. Then go fast +1 +1 melee with infestors and delay your third untill the 9 min mark. You should be able to hold anything other than macro play from there but you cant pressure a fast third. Bane drops as you take your 4th will help vs slow players. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
It turns out 3 zealots are in your mineral line same time your overlord sees his main is empty and he didnt sim city his gateway with a 1 gate gas core opening, which I think is a little too late in order to put down 2 spines in your mineral line to hold and come out ahead (i think with perfect micro you might be okay, but it's still iffy if you dont lose too many drones). So I'm just going to drone scout every zvp, on every map. So I'm going to do the whole send-initial-overlord to ramp. I guess it needs to have vision of near it at 1:00 though. I dont want it just sitting there forever. | ||
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
Not sure if this would put you ahead of your opponent, but you would be playing from a strong position for a 2 base tech play. At the moment his lowground cannon finishes (which you could have delayed by going for the pylon) he has 16 probes, no other structures, and you should have 16 drones and a queen (though you stopped mining). That's a pretty decent foothold to work from, so long as you don't totally both your micro/macro. EDIT: You can hit it with 3, just tested on a supply depot in a custom game with myself. That means the pylon goes down like 20 seconds before the cannon completes, and you force more mineral expenditure out of your opponent + can get a drone out to drop a hatchery which will either force more cannons or complete and give you a fantastic position in the game. 2ND EDIT: To clarify, this puts the Protoss player well behind you if you properly control your units. Move commanding can be used to stack up on the pylon effectively before attacking it if you have any issues. | ||
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eskashaborn
United States177 Posts
Hmm...A drone drill is proven not to work, but a happy drone drill will be more effective! Good creep is the secret to a good economy and happy drones. If you use your overlords to drop extra creep on the drones, it's like a shower to them and they enjoy it. Poll: Are happy drones happy? Only if they get a creep shower! :) (3) Not if you get your ramp blocked noob!!!! (3) of course!!! (2) STFU! (0) Only if the creep is mushy! (0) :))))))))))))) (0) 8 total votes Your vote: Are happy drones happy? (Vote): of course!!! User was warned for this post | ||
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
Siorry my English no good. | ||
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