On August 24 2012 14:36 eSuBuildings wrote: If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
User was warned for this post
I like your style. He has a point, you should know that a protoss will always block your expo so follow the scouting probe with a drone, or go for a different opening so you can shut down cannon rushes, like 14 pool 16 hatch or something of the sort. If you can't stop the ramp block go for a risky all in, timing, or try to macro out of it. Chances are if you do a risky all in like a nydus of speedlings there is always a chance he will probably not be ready for it. One thing it takes to getting to masters is being able to stop the cheese. Cmon now buddy
On August 24 2012 14:36 eSuBuildings wrote: If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
User was warned for this post
I like your style. He has a point, you should know that a protoss will always block your expo so follow the scouting probe with a drone, or go for a different opening so you can shut down cannon rushes, like 14 pool 16 hatch or something of the sort. If you can't stop the ramp block go for a risky all in, timing, or try to macro out of it. Chances are if you do a risky all in like a nydus of speedlings there is always a chance he will probably not be ready for it. One thing it takes to getting to masters is being able to stop the cheese. Cmon now buddy
Clearly you have yet to watch the replay as well. This is a block that comes down before you scout it assuming you do a normal 14 pool scout timing as most everybody does on a 2 player map.
On August 29 2012 12:48 MrLlama wrote: Here ya go mate. I show how I defend this vs a top masters protoss
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs
Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3.
Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after.
There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high...
It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens.
I could also go for roaches or hydras in which case he would be destroyed had I moved out towards his base. In fact I've won many games with hydra drops when he expects infestors or some ling/bling all in.
I'm willing to play vs you and show you what I mean.
Protoss doesn't need blink to hold roach/hydra drop, he should make robot instead of twiligth thats all. And of course protoss must not take B3 before you take B2, it would be stupid.
I am only diamond-master in toss, i don't think it would be a good example to play vs me.
and by diamond-master you mean diamond.
I'm going to stop arguing with you here simply because our game knowledge is too far apart and it's unreasonable for me to expect you to understand everything.
On August 24 2012 14:36 eSuBuildings wrote: If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
User was warned for this post
I like your style. He has a point, you should know that a protoss will always block your expo so follow the scouting probe with a drone, or go for a different opening so you can shut down cannon rushes, like 14 pool 16 hatch or something of the sort. If you can't stop the ramp block go for a risky all in, timing, or try to macro out of it. Chances are if you do a risky all in like a nydus of speedlings there is always a chance he will probably not be ready for it. One thing it takes to getting to masters is being able to stop the cheese. Cmon now buddy
Clearly you have yet to watch the replay as well. This is a block that comes down before you scout it assuming you do a normal 14 pool scout timing as most everybody does on a 2 player map.
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs
Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3.
Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after.
There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high...
It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens.
I could also go for roaches or hydras in which case he would be destroyed had I moved out towards his base. In fact I've won many games with hydra drops when he expects infestors or some ling/bling all in.
I'm willing to play vs you and show you what I mean.
Protoss doesn't need blink to hold roach/hydra drop, he should make robot instead of twiligth thats all. And of course protoss must not take B3 before you take B2, it would be stupid.
I am only diamond-master in toss, i don't think it would be a good example to play vs me.
and by diamond-master you mean diamond.
I'm going to stop arguing with you here simply because our game knowledge is too far apart and it's unreasonable for me to expect you to understand everything.
When i say diamond-master i mean that i am not currently playing protoss on the ladder (so i don't know my true level and anyway in 2-3 days i will be at least master toss) because i don't want to fuck my GM zerg account.
On August 24 2012 14:55 Belial88 wrote: There was no way to go for the pylon first. 2 drones attacking a pylon is not going to kill the pylon before the cannon is up...
I am not sure whether this has been mentioned, but in case of a pylon-forge wall-off you can, in fact, attack the pylon with three drones if you squeeze them a bit (did some testing in the editor). Screen: + Show Spoiler +
It takes three drones 45 seconds to take down a pylon, 20 for the shield and 25 for the actual HP. So, looking at your replay, if you pull three drones about when you see the pylon with your 9 overlord (~1:35), you can have it down at about 2:35 (including an estimate for reaction and travelling time). At that time, he has only a cannon building and ~50 minerals in his bank. The cheapest wall-off behind the pylon for him is a 2*2 and a 3*3 building, but that isn't really safe because the 2*2 building has to be next to the forge and can be drone-drilled at that position. So he has to spend at least 300 minerals (two 3*3 buildings) for a safe wall. Plus, he still has to make the cannon and remake the pylon which should delay everything on the high ground until a spine is morphing. Alternatively, he can wall-off with a gateway, a cannon and another pylon, which I would consider the most efficient thing to do, but it is also even more expensive.
Long story short, he has to cut probes even more than he already does to pull anything of the aforementioned off while you are droning up and can defend the high ground in the first place. I don't know if that gives zerg a game-winning advantage, but it is very likely to be better than not killing the pylon.
I hope I didn't make any obvious mistakes. I don't have a practice partner I would want to bother with that crap...
On August 24 2012 14:36 eSuBuildings wrote: If you're a 1300 masters Zerg and don't know to check for pylon blocks, you don't belong in 1300 masters.
User was warned for this post
I like your style. He has a point, you should know that a protoss will always block your expo so follow the scouting probe with a drone, or go for a different opening so you can shut down cannon rushes, like 14 pool 16 hatch or something of the sort. If you can't stop the ramp block go for a risky all in, timing, or try to macro out of it. Chances are if you do a risky all in like a nydus of speedlings there is always a chance he will probably not be ready for it. One thing it takes to getting to masters is being able to stop the cheese. Cmon now buddy
Clearly you have yet to watch the replay as well. This is a block that comes down before you scout it assuming you do a normal 14 pool scout timing as most everybody does on a 2 player map.
On August 30 2012 03:03 CakeInFire wrote:
On August 30 2012 02:45 MrLlama wrote:
On August 30 2012 02:42 CakeInFire wrote:
On August 30 2012 02:17 MrLlama wrote:
On August 30 2012 02:09 CakeInFire wrote:
On August 29 2012 12:48 MrLlama wrote: Here ya go mate. I show how I defend this vs a top masters protoss
you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings...
You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in.
Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet.
1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs
Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3.
Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after.
There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high...
It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens.
I could also go for roaches or hydras in which case he would be destroyed had I moved out towards his base. In fact I've won many games with hydra drops when he expects infestors or some ling/bling all in.
I'm willing to play vs you and show you what I mean.
Protoss doesn't need blink to hold roach/hydra drop, he should make robot instead of twiligth thats all. And of course protoss must not take B3 before you take B2, it would be stupid.
I am only diamond-master in toss, i don't think it would be a good example to play vs me.
and by diamond-master you mean diamond.
I'm going to stop arguing with you here simply because our game knowledge is too far apart and it's unreasonable for me to expect you to understand everything.
When i say diamond-master i mean that i am not currently playing protoss on the ladder (so i don't know my true level and anyway in 2-3 days i will be at least master toss) because i don't want to fuck my GM zerg account.
well congrats on being GM, however your counter points haven't been very strong. You keep saying, "some protoss don't all in sheesh!" but you act like the zerg is completely screwed if he just macros. The zerg is just fine and can literally MASS drones up from 45 to 70-75 in little to no time at all considering he will have 4 hatches with queens already made and injecting (just look at how many lings I made when I saw him pushing and now convert those into drones), thus fully saturating 3 bases (and I could establish my 4th soon after because if the protoss pushes, he'll be pushing into a TON of infestors with loads of energy). At the very least, the game is on even terms in my opinion at this point.
You also note that he cuts probes, but you have to remember that he was cutting probes because I was still only on 1 base. No matter what your race, if you continue to keep producing workers when you're a base ahead and they are teching, you are setting yourself up for failure. he HAS to prepare for an all in and thus the game evens out.
So he did a 10 pylon 10 forge cannon. His cannon has to be close to his pylon otherwise you could kill the pylon with a queen. Why not just make 2 spine, make a macro hatch, get some gas/upgrades going and transition out of it?
The way I would handle it is send my 2nd overlord to his 3rd base/check his main gas timing (i do that on this map). I only realize he is cannon rushing when i send my 15p 16h drone down to build hatch. So ill just macro hatch in base, build queen then 2 spine out of range of cannon.
Your response was use 15 drones to try to drone drill the forge. You should lose the game right there when you cant break it and you should know you cant break a forge with that. You continue on to do a 2 hatch lair, nydus, overlord drops, baneling build with like 20 banelings at 12 minutes in the game after you scouted he has sentry. I can tell you it would be much closer if you had picked 1 of those 3 things, id say in this case drops would have been best.
Rather than waste all that mining time just build a macro hatch, drone up get double evo started and play a non-standard game with super early upgrades and excess larva from a macro hatch. I just recently did that 2 games in a row and won both rather easily. And he did a worse for me version of this which is higher econ 3 pylon block. Id rather protoss put a 10 pylon 10 forge at my ramp than 3 pylons at 14 supply.
Mrllama i think cakeinfire brought up some legitimate points. I think practically, your solution would work, since any toss who ramp blocks is probably going to be an all-in moron bot. But I do think there's a genuine concern that Toss will actually be very far ahead economically with his build, and he can tell if you are going lair or not, to which he can simply go blink expand (because he doesnt need to worry about mass roaches, really, just mutas if any sort of lair aggression would come) or just generally take a third instead of all-in.
I mean with 1 base infestors, you clearly have a tech advantage, so I don't know. i'd be interested if you could come out all around 'ahead' against a proper Toss opponent who does this.
I understand the reason of creating this thread, but not the reason that you give for being behind when pulling a drone. Really how many mid-late game errors do humans make in this game, that should be fixed in order to play perfect. It's a game that requires perfection, but what makes the game interested and competitive is that humans make errors.
In order to make this comment less robotic. I actually have a lot of times mid-late game mis rallying or something that also gives me 80+/- lesser minerals than I could have got, just as an example. It's something we practice for, but something that will never stop excisting.
^ It's a significant investment, for no return (99% of the time). If ramp block were much more common, then yea, it'd definitely be worth it. Hatch first would be worth it if Toss went nexus first the overwhelming majority of the time, and 14gas/14pool would be the best build if toss went gateway first the overwhelming majority of the time. But they don't.
Like I 10 drone scout in ZvZ. But that is because if I see someone doing a Hatch First also, I'll respond by going 17gas/17pool, which makes up for the loss I suffer, as well as letting me win a good 10% of my games automatically because of the opponent going 6/7/8/9/10/11 pool. I face early pools enough, that it's worth it for me to 10 drone scout (whereas ramp block isn't nearly as common), and I get valuable information to respond to any build the opponent does (early pool=reactive pool/hatch, autowin, gas/pool = far ahead economically anyways, pool/hatch = far ahead economically anways, hatch first = come out roughly even because of reactive 17g/17p and because I *will* block their hatchery), whereas I get zero valuable information on what the opponent is doing with a 10 drone scout against Toss because I can't do anything (i can't block a nexus against a proper reaction of 2 pulled probes) to 'harass', and I get zero scouting information (except maybe that they are going FFE, but that really isn't something I need to know asap, even proxy 2 gate or 4 gates or gateway openers in general you can deal with blind and react to with your scouting overlord).
That said, yea, pulling a drone at 9 to patrol is one way to stop this. But seeing as how rare this build is, at the moment, I won't do that. I think now on though, I'll do it if I'm facing someone with, say, a Dark Voice portrait (obvious cheeser/farmer/idiot) or says something really, really stupid at the start or obnoxious (those people always turn out to be ramp blockers/cheesers of some type). I mean you can literally detect something like a 6 pool if the person doesn't respond to your glhf in a normal manner. So against those sort of people, I'll be pulling a 9 drone to patrol.
But otherwise, I don't think it's worth it. If the opponent goes Nexus First I really think it's too much of an economic hit to play a comfortable game. So far, what I've gathered is that you should just leave the game the few times this happens, but there's been a little bit of discussion in the last 2 pages about possibly coming out ahead against this.
So far, it just looks like you can deduce your opponent is a moron if he does a ramp block, and doesn't know how to play a proper game, so you can just not pull drones and overreact, and do a 1 base build and just completely outplay a retard and have a high enough chance to win that's it's worth staying in the game.
I still believe if you are ramp blocked, even if you don't pull drones or react, you are in a 'unwinnable' position, but with some of what MrLlama and a few others have posted, it seems like the best course of action is just to play the game out and actually have a chance to win. MrLlama claims that you are ahead, I don't know, he WAS behind in workers as he said, and he didn't post the actual rep so I can't compare the respective positions in the game, but it does look like you mmight have a very tiny chance to win against someone who is obviously going to be a fullblown retard.
On August 30 2012 10:40 Belial88 wrote: ^ It's a significant investment, for no return (99% of the time). If ramp block were much more common, then yea, it'd definitely be worth it. Hatch first would be worth it if Toss went nexus first the overwhelming majority of the time, and 14gas/14pool would be the best build if toss went gateway first the overwhelming majority of the time. But they don't.
Like I 10 drone scout in ZvZ. But that is because if I see someone doing a Hatch First also, I'll respond by going 17gas/17pool, which makes up for the loss I suffer, as well as letting me win a good 10% of my games automatically because of the opponent going 6/7/8/9/10/11 pool. I face early pools enough, that it's worth it for me to 10 drone scout (whereas ramp block isn't nearly as common), and I get valuable information to respond to any build the opponent does (early pool=reactive pool/hatch, autowin, gas/pool = far ahead economically anyways, pool/hatch = far ahead economically anways, hatch first = come out roughly even because of reactive 17g/17p and because I *will* block their hatchery), whereas I get zero valuable information on what the opponent is doing with a 10 drone scout against Toss because I can't do anything (i can't block a nexus against a proper reaction of 2 pulled probes) to 'harass', and I get zero scouting information (except maybe that they are going FFE, but that really isn't something I need to know asap, even proxy 2 gate or 4 gates or gateway openers in general you can deal with blind and react to with your scouting overlord).
That said, yea, pulling a drone at 9 to patrol is one way to stop this. But seeing as how rare this build is, at the moment, I won't do that. I think now on though, I'll do it if I'm facing someone with, say, a Dark Voice portrait (obvious cheeser/farmer/idiot) or says something really, really stupid at the start or obnoxious (those people always turn out to be ramp blockers/cheesers of some type). I mean you can literally detect something like a 6 pool if the person doesn't respond to your glhf in a normal manner. So against those sort of people, I'll be pulling a 9 drone to patrol.
But otherwise, I don't think it's worth it. If the opponent goes Nexus First I really think it's too much of an economic hit to play a comfortable game. So far, what I've gathered is that you should just leave the game the few times this happens, but there's been a little bit of discussion in the last 2 pages about possibly coming out ahead against this.
So far, it just looks like you can deduce your opponent is a moron if he does a ramp block, and doesn't know how to play a proper game, so you can just not pull drones and overreact, and do a 1 base build and just completely outplay a retard and have a high enough chance to win that's it's worth staying in the game.
I still believe if you are ramp blocked, even if you don't pull drones or react, you are in a 'unwinnable' position, but with some of what MrLlama and a few others have posted, it seems like the best course of action is just to play the game out and actually have a chance to win. MrLlama claims that you are ahead, I don't know, he WAS behind in workers as he said, and he didn't post the actual rep so I can't compare the respective positions in the game, but it does look like you mmight have a very tiny chance to win against someone who is obviously going to be a fullblown retard.
and another 2 games skillless bullshit ramp block wins. tried your build mrllama but he instantly took natural and so i was too far behind.
its so fucking retarded blizzard doesnt do anything against this objectively and by all pro players and tournaments accepted imbalanced strategy. there is NO reason not to fix this.
^ Oh no, clearly, many Toss think that there should not be a neutral depot, and that it adds some sort of variety to the game, or that there is nothing unfair about having to be forced to pull a drone from 9-20 supply to hold position at the ramp (like they've ever, ever, ever seen a pro do that when playing on ladder or a map like belshir/tda).
It's clearly a very divisive issue. After all, that's why Zerg is so OP in the tournament scene - because of the neutral depot. i imagine these same people believe that neutral depots should be removed from tournaments.
Oh, that's right, they claim that the ramp block is balanced, it's just that spectators don't want to watch Toss win 5 minute games every ZvP. But it's balanced. What?
On August 29 2012 19:02 covetousrat wrote: Why don't you just send the overlord along the probe path to your ramp? Eg in Cloud Kingdom send your Overlord pass your Natural rocks first then towards Protoss expansion. Your overlord will pass the probe at your natural rocks if Protoss send 1/6 starting probes. If you see it just pull a drone to deny the Forge from going down and another to chase the probe.
Just did this. So fun and easy if you caught zerg unprepared.
I have to requote myself and can someone answer me here? Is it so hard to do an additional shift click for your first overlord as you can easily scout the Probe coming in? This only happens on 2 player map.
^ Yea maybe. I'm not sure. Recently I've been thinking of not drone scouting in ZvP, so it's kind of improtant to get that overlord over to toss' natural by the time your pool pops, in case you have to throw down 2 spines in your main for a proxy 2 gate that's inside your base. If I did that, I think the timing would be tight. But, if I just drone scout like I always do and do on 4 player maps, I could do that. I'd have to see if the timing checks the ramp though. So at 1:00 have an overlord have vision of the ramp, in case he does this style of ramp block.
On August 29 2012 19:02 covetousrat wrote: Why don't you just send the overlord along the probe path to your ramp? Eg in Cloud Kingdom send your Overlord pass your Natural rocks first then towards Protoss expansion. Your overlord will pass the probe at your natural rocks if Protoss send 1/6 starting probes. If you see it just pull a drone to deny the Forge from going down and another to chase the probe.
Just did this. So fun and easy if you caught zerg unprepared.
I have to requote myself and can someone answer me here? Is it so hard to do an additional shift click for your first overlord as you can easily scout the Probe coming in? This only happens on 2 player map.
-there's no guarantee your initial overlord will cross paths with their probe, unless you just let it loiter by your natural entrance for 10+ seconds -you'll have less time to defend against any of the other myriad cheeses protoss can do early game -if they get the cannon at their natural up before your overlord gets there, you may never get to see their gas timings
as with a lot of the other suggestions- this would be worth it if protoss were doing this build ~30% of the time or w/e. but since most protoss apparently want to play a real game and don't bother with this BS, it's not.
I watched the replay and there are few things that really set you back here.
first, your minerals were never fully saturated. Second, your response to this kind of opening has to be something that breaks the wall in quickly, i'm thinking 7 roach? with those early roaches you can harass his wall while you catch back up in eco and not be terribly behind.
I do understand the complete and utter crap and extensivness of this cheese, but it may happen and when it does you have to be able to play and get your self back into the game, marks the sign of a being a better player, win or lose, getting back into the game after something like this must be your goal.
On August 31 2012 01:01 Belial88 wrote: ^ Oh no, clearly, many Toss think that there should not be a neutral depot, and that it adds some sort of variety to the game, or that there is nothing unfair about having to be forced to pull a drone from 9-20 supply to hold position at the ramp (like they've ever, ever, ever seen a pro do that when playing on ladder or a map like belshir/tda).
It's clearly a very divisive issue. After all, that's why Zerg is so OP in the tournament scene - because of the neutral depot. i imagine these same people believe that neutral depots should be removed from tournaments.
Oh, that's right, they claim that the ramp block is balanced, it's just that spectators don't want to watch Toss win 5 minute games every ZvP. But it's balanced. What?
So racist.
I think most high level toss would rather have depots for gg.
On August 29 2012 19:02 covetousrat wrote: Why don't you just send the overlord along the probe path to your ramp? Eg in Cloud Kingdom send your Overlord pass your Natural rocks first then towards Protoss expansion. Your overlord will pass the probe at your natural rocks if Protoss send 1/6 starting probes. If you see it just pull a drone to deny the Forge from going down and another to chase the probe.
Just did this. So fun and easy if you caught zerg unprepared.
I have to requote myself and can someone answer me here? Is it so hard to do an additional shift click for your first overlord as you can easily scout the Probe coming in? This only happens on 2 player map.
-there's no guarantee your initial overlord will cross paths with their probe, unless you just let it loiter by your natural entrance for 10+ seconds -you'll have less time to defend against any of the other myriad cheeses protoss can do early game -if they get the cannon at their natural up before your overlord gets there, you may never get to see their gas timings
as with a lot of the other suggestions- this would be worth it if protoss were doing this build ~30% of the time or w/e. but since most protoss apparently want to play a real game and don't bother with this BS, it's not.
Have you actually tested it? This ramp block only works with a starting Probe being sent out. And I have tested it on all 3 two player map Ohana, Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak. If you send your first Overlord pass your ramp, the Overlord will meet the Probe at 0.50 seconds in game. Any later Probe other than the starting will not work in this cannon rush.
- Let's not get into the Probe hiding which may or may not occur in the future which may delay the Pylon by a long time. - Pylon Forge ramp does not work on 4 players map.
The main part now, is it worth to send your first overlord pass your ramp? It shouldn't make much difference as it takes an extra ~10s (my assumption) to reach P expo.
In conclusion, if you are really worry about this Forge at ramp cheese, just do an additional Shift rally on your Overlord past your ramp.
This topic just gone too far. Ballanced or not, it's not about ballance. Fair or not, it's not about being fair. Ladder is about practice and/or fun. From "fun" point of view I don't think there is a single player who can sincerly say that he has fun playing like this, and I'm 100% sure that there is NO player who likes to play vs this. (but, there are players who takes pleasure making other people miserable, fuck them btw) And from a "practice" point of view.. oh please..
So this is just another retarded stupid shit that gets NO skill to do and ten pages of a topic on team liquid NOT to be able to resolve it. This thing, ballanced or not, just makes people mad so shuld be patched.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hYplh.jpg)
