EPTSecond one is fast enought to see everything important in his base anyway. On 4-way maps that may be more anoyibng, but on 4-way maps that shuldn't be happening at all.
[H]ZvP Ramp Blocked - Page 9
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Sapp
Poland173 Posts
Second one is fast enought to see everything important in his base anyway. On 4-way maps that may be more anoyibng, but on 4-way maps that shuldn't be happening at all. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I didnt actually realise he could continue with the wall around the drone, thats why I didnt build lings/pull drones until he built the second pylon. You should be building 4 lings always when pool pops anyways though. If he pylon blocks your third and you only made 2 lings, it will hurt, especially with a cyber added on. I mean maybe just 2 lings if you want to be greedy. He wouldn't have been able to continue a wall around the drone if you made 2-4 lings as soon as your pool popped just like you should always do. I think your macro kind of fell apart as you micro'd against that probe and then he was able to do a ramp block because you didn't really make lings. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On August 29 2012 23:21 Belial88 wrote: Just ignore the troll blade. What a douchebag to be insulting a blue like that. I stopped caring a long time ago what he had to say. Thanks MrLama, that was a very informative video! A real practical solution to the problem, I like it. Do you think you were ahead or behind though? You said that Toss was ahead in workers at one point, and if Toss played a very straight-forward robo expand, I think he would have been way ahead of you. Yea, okay, every single Toss who is going to ramp block is going to do some sort of all-in (voids or blink) into DT, so maybe I don't have to worry about that, but just saying ;/ I'd like to see the rep of it, see maybe who's ahead in it. Or a better picture of who is ahead. Seemed like you just countered his build, that's how it looked so easy, but it seemed like he could have been ahead if he wasn't such a moron. On a side note, I really liked ling/baneling bust all-in as a response to this. I played Toss on ladder for a while, trying to find a zerg to do it too (i found 10 t/p first, dropped my MMR by 300 points tt), and he responded by simply by not pulling drones against it (like you advise), and busted out with 2 spines, and then did a ling/bane all-in and wrecked my 3 cannon wall-in at my natural with no sentries. I was ahead in workers until about 10 minutes when he passed me (I was at 45, he was at 50). That being said, the only reason I stopped making workers and massed lings is because I saw him starting to push out with his army and I knew it was going to be some sort of 2 base all in hit because of the fast upgrades and quantity of units. Had I seen him looking to take a 3rd or teching up, I could've continued droning and been in a fine position. I also want to note though that I was already on infestor tech and not only that but I had infestors out with enough energy for 2x fungal and 2x infested terrans each. This is a HUGE advantage for defending any push that comes at me, so remember that. Something I would ALSO like to note is how my opponent didn't react very much to an all in, which is generally what a protoss will do. So typically the game looks like this: 1. protoss does wall 2. Zerg either goes for a 1 base all in (roach or ling/bling bust), a 1 base muta (which loses), or most common a 1 base nydus play. 3. The protoss has like 4-5 cannons down PLUS sentries to ff. Remember, the zerg is on 1 base so you just have to invest everything into holding and you win. In your case, you said the guy ling/bling busted you but in actuality this is EXACTLY what you should expect as a protoss and thus you should be having to cannon extra and chrono out sentries just incase. It is for these reasons that I think I am actually ahead in the game. My opponent played greedy and I could've easily punished him with a 1 base all in, but I wanted to show that you could very easily macro out of it and still beat him. If he goes for his 3rd, then you can drone up and take an even faster hive than normal (because you already have infestors out) to make your deathball even earlier. When the toss does this, he no longer has the control of a game and instead he now has to be really concerned about what you're doing so you get the control and that is why you have the advantage (because he HAS to prepare for the all in or he loses if it hits and he only has 2 cannons like my opponent did). | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On August 24 2012 13:47 Belial88 wrote: Tried, can't. Doesn't address the problem of toss reinforcing the wall-in either, or if I successfully broke out I'd be more behind because 15x40=600 minerals, which is more than what toss lost. If you watch the rep, you'd see that I couldn't see the pylon/forge block even with my overlord going straight to the nat and a 12 drone scout. If you say it adds flavor, then you can't possibly have ever faced it. It would make no sense if Zerg had to drone scout on 9 every game simply because of a ramp block. Or do you think all the tournie maps are broken in favor of Zerg because Zerg isn't forced to pull a drone? Put a drone on patrol from 9 supply to 20 supply, until pool pops? And lose 80 minerals? It's dealable with a standard 13 forge at home because you just pull 2 drones to deal with the 1 probe scout and you want to make the hatch. It's not balanced, nor is it fun or good game design, but it's dealable. Being down 80 minerals just because of this would be completely broken against zerg. A drone on patrol from 9 is ridiculous. Oh, the exaggeration. Protoss has to 9 scout vs zerg every game or risk outright losing to any form of early pool. Why should zerg be any different? Just because you have to make a small adjustment on one ladder map doesnt make it automatically "imbalanced". | ||
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Sapp
Poland173 Posts
On August 30 2012 01:39 Piledriver wrote: Oh, the exaggeration. Protoss has to 9 scout vs zerg every game or risk outright losing to any form of early pool. Why should zerg be any different? Just because you have to make a small adjustment on one ladder map doesnt make it automatically "imbalanced". Comparing 9 probe to 9 drone, and saying that it's the same thing is just retarded. | ||
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KingLumps
74 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
They scout at 9 so they can go nexus first. You can scout on 13 with a forge first and be safe against any sort of early pool just fine. You also get to block Zerg's expansions, and you get scouting information for what Zerg will be doing for the next 10 minutes (gas, no gas, ie is he doing an all-in or playing standard 3 hatch gasless). Zerg doesn't get any information with a drone scout, except "oh he's going FFE", which an overlord does anyways, and it doesn't tell you what Toss' follow-up is, whereas Zerg has to go roach/ling and doesn't really make a diversion until about 10:00+ or after they see what Toss is doing (oh he isn't all-inning, I'm safe to tech now). You are the one exaggerating. And Zerg goes 14-15 Pool First every ZvP or risk losing to Cannon rush automatically. Meanwhile, Toss can go Nexus First with a 9 probe scout, or, they can just go 13 forge and scout at 13 and be safe to everything. Also, there is no safe build to this pylon ramp block. Toss can go 13 forge probe scout, 9 probe scout nexus first, or open gateway. Zerg has no build that is safe from a ramp block. If it goes down, it's gg. Clearly a biased Toss player who's never faced this build. It would be more like even if you probe scouted every game, you would still lose to early pools. And don't exaggerate either, it's 13 probe scout from a 13 forge, and you are only going 9 probe scout so you can go nexus first and get a gain from that.You aren't 9 probe scouting for safety. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
Also, there is no safe build to this pylon ramp block. Toss can go 13 forge probe scout, 9 probe scout nexus first, or open gateway. Zerg has no build that is safe from a ramp block. If it goes down, it's gg. I'd prefer you really consider my video and thoughts. Definitely not gg, just turns the game into a different style where you get faster lair and slightly later expansions. | ||
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CakeInFire
13 Posts
On August 29 2012 12:48 MrLlama wrote: Here ya go mate. I show how I defend this vs a top masters protoss you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings... You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in. Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:09 CakeInFire wrote: you won because your opponents is very bad : "cheese didn't kill my opponent ? let's go for an all in"... Blink stalkers all in against infestors+zerglings... You took your B2 way too late, toss has a huge lead unless he is going for a retarded all in. Protoss should have take B3 before you or shortly after to keep his lead. You can't prevent him from doing such a thing since you have a very little army and you have not 60 drone yet. 1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs | ||
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smoosh
31 Posts
do you think there is any utility in having a macro hatch on one base? i was initially thinking it could be built close to the ramp so you didn't have to waste your first 25 queen energy on a creep tumor and still get a spine down quickly and close enough to poke at pylons, but it might be left vulnerable to cannons if the protoss glitches into your base. if it can't be used towards the ramp, however, could it still be used simply for the extra larva with 2 queens? if you are going to double expand after killing the wall in, you could potentially saturate 3 bases quite quickly. if you scout that the protoss is doing some 2 base all in, which is more likely, it would still be beneficial to saturate 2 bases instantly (as soon as the hatch pops). in either situation you will have, like you recommended, teched to lair and chosen your tech (infestor, etc.) and, with 3 to 4 queens, will almost instantly have the production needed to support full 2 base saturation. so my questions: is a macro hatch at the ramp viable? if not, is it because of vulnerability to cannons? is a macro hatch near your main viable? the only reason i could see it not being viable is if you cant support drone production from 2 hatches that early on in the game (basically at any point before your expansion hatch finishes), or if you could obtain 2 base saturation with only one hatch by the time your expansion hatch finishes (i dont think that's possible). | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:20 smoosh wrote: llama, do you think there is any utility in having a macro hatch on one base? i was initially thinking it could be built close to the ramp so you didn't have to waste your first 25 queen energy on a creep tumor and still get a spine down quickly and close enough to poke at pylons, but it might be left vulnerable to cannons if the protoss glitches into your base. if it can't be used towards the ramp, however, could it still be used simply for the extra larva with 2 queens? if you are going to double expand after killing the wall in, you could potentially saturate 3 bases quite quickly. if you scout that the protoss is doing some 2 base all in, which is more likely, it would still be beneficial to saturate 2 bases instantly (as soon as the hatch pops). in either situation you will have, like you recommended, teched to lair and chosen your tech (infestor, etc.) and, with 3 to 4 queens, will almost instantly have the production needed to support full 2 base saturation. so my questions: is a macro hatch at the ramp viable? is it because of vulnerability to cannons? is a macro hatch near your main viable? the only reason i could see it not being viable is if you cant support drone production from 2 hatches that early on in the game (basically at any point before your expansion hatch finishes), or if you could obtain 2 base saturation with only one hatch by the time your expansion hatch finishes (i dont think that's possible). is the macro hatch at the ramp viable? Yes, just make sure it is in a position like in my video where you can go snipe it. That being said, using a queen for a creep tumor really isn't a big deal. You can make your 2nd queen while your macro hatch is building (near the ramp or not) and then just use that 2nd queen to drop a tumor while it waits to inject into your 2nd hatch later so really I don't think the macro hatch placement is CRUCIAL to the hold. It's just something nice, but I've definitely won many a time with a creep tumor and the macro hatch next to my main. is a macro hatch near your main viable? As kinda stated up above, yes it's very viable. The thing is though, the macro hatch is NECESSARY because you want to be able to mass up on drones like I did so that when you transfer down, you are still ahead/even with the protoss in workers. If he wants to go for a 2base all in (very common off of this because they think they are really far ahead) then you just mass lings from that point, which is ANOTHER reason why the macro hatch is great to have. The thing about this style is that you're basically just getting things in a different order. Either way you're going to end up with 3 bases, a macro hatch, upgrades, and infestors. It's just in this case you get the macro hatch and infestors/upgrades earlier while taking the bases later (which isn't a big deal because he has to delay his stuff to get the fast forge and cannons to contain you. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10671 Posts
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OpTiKcoyote
United States60 Posts
OpTiKcoyote | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:27 GGzerG wrote: Try opening with 10 pool, it denys any sort of wall in, proxy 2gate, any sort of cheese, can apply pressure on protoss, u only need to build 6 lings, gets queen up early for extra injects, forces protoss to build a lot of un necessary buildings to stop it, or they will just sac they're natural in which case you are ultimately far ahead, I prefer to open 10pool a lot vs Protoss to stop any sort of cheese like this, that is my opinion! Gl laddering brother~ Are you advocating 10pool on 2 player maps? Especially on Cloud, where it's really easy to full wall the choke, and the Protoss will scout you with plenty of time to prepare, a 10pool just seems like a terrible idea. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:27 GGzerG wrote: Try opening with 10 pool, it denys any sort of wall in, proxy 2gate, any sort of cheese, can apply pressure on protoss, u only need to build 6 lings, gets queen up early for extra injects, forces protoss to build a lot of un necessary buildings to stop it, or they will just sac they're natural in which case you are ultimately far ahead, I prefer to open 10pool a lot vs Protoss to stop any sort of cheese like this, that is my opinion! Gl laddering brother~ You can hold a proxy 2 gate easily with a blind 14pool/16hatch. A forge first or 9 probe scout-forge-natural would handle a 10 pool. And even if you get lings in, you have to do a ton of damage with them, since that could have been 3 drones. So you gotta kill basically at least 6 workers to make it worth it ;/ Thanks coyote. Do you have any reps of this? 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. Well, the reason the guy was able to get a ling/bane all-in was because my toss is about gold level. I haven't played toss in like a year (got to masters with random long time ago though). I had a probe in his base and should have known it was coming, seeing just 1 gas, but I wasn't really paying attention, I was just assuming I was playing myself. But he saw you morph lair, so he knows you aren't going to do an all-in. I mean, he might think something like 1 base muta or nydus, but a simple 5 gate robo would be safe against that and from there he could just take his third. Probably even go like blink expand since you don't have to worry about mass roaches, really. | ||
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CakeInFire
13 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:17 MrLlama wrote: 1. He didn't know I was going for infestors. He just knew I had a lair. 2. I took my B2 at a fine time. As soon as it was done, I transferred over 16 drones and had optimal saturation on it. I had all the drones already made so I was fine on harvester count up to that point which is something most people don't account for. They just think about must having the expansion down or you're behind which isn't true. Sure I have a couple of minutes where I'm not mining from the extra base, but I wouldn't be mining optimally there (since I'd be building drones at that time and slowly saturating it) so really I'm not losing as much as you think. You also have to remember that I also was able to achieve super fast tech with this so later on I could have full energy infestors. 3. Protoss couldn't take his B3 because he had to watch out for an all in from me. The ball was no longer in his court because if he went to 3 bases he would've been WAY too spread out and I could've easily killed him HAD I gone for an all in. I opted for a macro play instead, but he HAS to prepare for the all in or he will lose, as belial stated before when he talked about losing when he was toss because the guy did a 1 base ling/bling all in. 4. My opponent is top 8 masters and has been for a couple of seasons now. 5. even if he went for something like a immortal sentry all in, I just fungal all his sentries and yum yum yum steamroll him with zerglings since there's no FFs Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3. Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after. There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high... It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:42 CakeInFire wrote: Protoss got all informations he need. You have something like 400-600 gaz and you are still on one base... you can go mutas but you will have something 5-6 mutas so it sucks, you can go nydus all in but protoss can hold it easily. So you can only go infestor or all in. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold your all in and blink is very bad against infestor... Protoss should have play "normal", put a robot then see there is nothing coming and take a B3. Your B2 is too late for 2 reasons : .your income is very very low (your B2 was ready 5min after protoss B2... ) .you have very few larvae so you can't apply pressure -> protoss can take B3 before you or shortly after. There are a lot of retarded canon rusher/cheeser on the ladder, some of them are master/top master or even GM but who cares ? Please watch your opponent macro, he cut probe production, his supply is too high... It is very strange but some protoss don't all in, it happens. I could also go for roaches or hydras in which case he would be destroyed had I moved out towards his base. In fact I've won many games with hydra drops when he expects infestors or some ling/bling all in. I'm willing to play vs you and show you what I mean. | ||
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OpTiKcoyote
United States60 Posts
Thanks coyote. Do you have any reps of this? I'm afraid not since it hasn't happened to me in a while. It'll take a little practice for you to figure out which method you prefer but once you get it down your losses to this will greatly decrease. | ||
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CakeInFire
13 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:45 MrLlama wrote: I could also go for roaches or hydras in which case he would be destroyed had I moved out towards his base. In fact I've won many games with hydra drops when he expects infestors or some ling/bling all in. I'm willing to play vs you and show you what I mean. Protoss doesn't need blink to hold roach/hydra drop, he should make robot instead of twiligth thats all. And of course protoss must not take B3 before you take B2, it would be stupid. I am only diamond-master in toss, i don't think it would be a good example to play vs me. | ||
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