EPTI think on 2 player maps having the overlord go check the nat real quick might be a good idea. I guess that means you have to drone scout on 2 player maps though, in case of proxy gates or gateway openers.
[H]ZvP Ramp Blocked - Page 11
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I think on 2 player maps having the overlord go check the nat real quick might be a good idea. I guess that means you have to drone scout on 2 player maps though, in case of proxy gates or gateway openers. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:01 Sapp wrote: This topic just gone too far. Ballanced or not, it's not about ballance. Fair or not, it's not about being fair. Ladder is about practice and/or fun. From "fun" point of view I don't think there is a single player who can sincerly say that he has fun playing like this, and I'm 100% sure that there is NO player who likes to play vs this. (but, there are players who takes pleasure making other people miserable, fuck them btw) And from a "practice" point of view.. oh please.. So this is just another retarded stupid shit that gets NO skill to do and ten pages of a topic on team liquid NOT to be able to resolve it. This thing, ballanced or not, just makes people mad so shuld be patched. Sigh. "It is a not a fun tac". I hate this argument, i really do. Fun is subjective. What's fun is different to different people. Trying to define "fun" is madness. Trying to define what everyone think is/isn't "fun" is idiocy. I really just think it should be nerfed, and that is only if Blizzards statestics says it is broken even on higher levels. Seems like MrLiama and other high level Zerg have little trouple dealing with it through and if all games with the pylon block is dealt with that easy then Blizzard would have little reason to do so. I don't think it is fun getting 6-pooled either, but i don't go to the forums screaming "Make spawning pool take 2 overlords!" when it happens. Deal with it. | ||
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sickkungen
Sweden179 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:36 Sumadin wrote: Sigh. "It is a not a fun tac". I hate this argument, i really do. Fun is subjective. What's fun is different to different people. Trying to define "fun" is madness. Trying to define what everyone think is/isn't "fun" is idiocy. I really just think it should be nerfed, and that is only if Blizzards statestics says it is broken even on higher levels. Seems like MrLiama and other high level Zerg have little trouple dealing with it through and if all games with the pylon block is dealt with that easy then Blizzard would have little reason to do so. I don't think it is fun getting 6-pooled either, but i don't go to the forums screaming "Make spawning pool take 2 overlords!" when it happens. Deal with it. It isn't about the fun, it isn't about dealing wih it, because you can't. It is about balance. If the Protoss blocks your ramp with 3 pylons the game is over. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:36 Sumadin wrote: Sigh. "It is a not a fun tac". I hate this argument, i really do. Fun is subjective. What's fun is different to different people. Trying to define "fun" is madness. Trying to define what everyone think is/isn't "fun" is idiocy. I really just think it should be nerfed, and that is only if Blizzards statestics says it is broken even on higher levels. Seems like MrLiama and other high level Zerg have little trouple dealing with it through and if all games with the pylon block is dealt with that easy then Blizzard would have little reason to do so. I don't think it is fun getting 6-pooled either, but i don't go to the forums screaming "Make spawning pool take 2 overlords!" when it happens. Deal with it. If a large amount of the player base find it not fun, and changing it wouldn't affect the game negatively in any other way, then I don't see why it shouldn't be changed. 6 pool isn't strong, at all, and making 6 pool require 2 OLs would actually hamper balance in other ways; CC first --> gas --> rax would be pretty damn safe, nexus first 100% safe, etc. Not to mention that this actually is stupid strong and requires a stupid response. | ||
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Sapp
Poland173 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:36 Sumadin wrote: Sigh. "It is a not a fun tac". I hate this argument, i really do. Fun is subjective. What's fun is different to different people. Trying to define "fun" is madness. Trying to define what everyone think is/isn't "fun" is idiocy. I really just think it should be nerfed, and that is only if Blizzards statestics says it is broken even on higher levels. Seems like MrLiama and other high level Zerg have little trouple dealing with it through and if all games with the pylon block is dealt with that easy then Blizzard would have little reason to do so. I don't think it is fun getting 6-pooled either, but i don't go to the forums screaming "Make spawning pool take 2 overlords!" when it happens. Deal with it. idiocy is to make statements without presenting any arguments what so ever. MrLama is not the best zerg in the world, and that protoss wasn't the best player either, so that game was not 100% objective. And then even if they were, they present ZvP from how to play from behind point of view, and not how to deal with this ramp block. And lastly, comparing this to 6-pool is retarded. To win with 6-pool you need funk thones of micro, quite good multitasking, abit of a brain and fine decisionmakeing. And still you can fail and flat out loose. This shit is just totaly lame "build two buldings" to win or to be infinity ahead. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On a lot of maps it prevents some better building placement to FFE. Against some early pools you can wall your ramp at the bottom or you can wall against some zergling runbys later if there is NO supply depot. I have done this cheese years ago. This isn't really a new build. On a lot of maps the zerg can just place one creep tumor and one spine and will be way ahead. On some maps its too far but you have still a lot of choices then. As long as you keep calm, don't pull drones and keep macroing you can do nearly everything. I have seen 1 base muta, hydra, roach all in, 3 roach expand, nydus, baneling bust and speedling drops etc. Just keep scouting his base, toss wont have any anti air and choose a counter build. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On August 31 2012 04:21 Sapp wrote: idiocy is to make statements without presenting any arguments what so ever. MrLama is not the best zerg in the world, and that protoss wasn't the best player either, so that game was not 100% objective. And then even if they were, they present ZvP from how to play from behind point of view, and not how to deal with this ramp block. And lastly, comparing this to 6-pool is retarded. To win with 6-pool you need funk thones of micro, quite good multitasking, abit of a brain and fine decisionmakeing. And still you can fail and flat out loose. This shit is just totaly lame "build two buldings" to win or to be infinity ahead. I agree I'm not the best player in the world and neither was my opponent. That being said, both of us being over 1000 pt masters should at least give some credibility to anybody around or below that area (99% of players) for an idea of a decent way to react. Someone else said he tried my build but the protoss took his natural too quickly and thus the toss won. But if we look at the game maybe the guy was a plat player who got supply blocked a lot or didn't get upgrades or waited too long to push out. Just like someone who says, "There's no way to win against a ____ push. I tried what you did but my opponent must've been better because your advice to do _____ was wrong." I'm sure with some practice you would get better at defending it. It's not something you'll just do 1 time and suddenly be amazing at. The big point I want to bring up though is how you say, " they present ZvP from how to play from behind point of view, and not how to deal with this ramp block. " I think this is wrong, rather than playing from behind, you are simply playing a different style of the game. In the current metagame you stick on hatch tech for 8 minutes and mass up on drones while you wait for protoss to determine his tech and then make a 2 base push or try to take a 3rd base. you then gather up a nice army of roaches/lings and move into lair tech where you add infestors, go to hive, then get your death army. In this game, you tech to lair really quickly and get lots of gas. This gives you the "options" of mutas, infestors, nydus, hydras, any form of drops, etc... Which really puts the ball in your court because now the protoss can't just defend at his natural with a couple of cannons but he has to prepare for air, drops, nydus, etc... and cover his whole base. This gives YOU control of the game with which you can either all in (as a toss can make his 2 base all in when he has control) or you can expand once you break out. The nice thing is, once you do break out, if you choose to macro then you are shifting the game control back to the toss, but instead of just having ling/roach to scrappily defend against his army, you have infestors with the almighty fungal growth which is probably one of the hardest things to push in against besides a siege line. Not only that, but you probably can have an upgrade advantage at this point as well, thus the game has changed where yes you have less workers, but you have stronger units and lair tech infestors with full energy and you're not behind simply because supply is equal or worker counts aren't 20 in your favor, you're even or ahead because you have upgrade advantage, infestor tech, and the ability to quickly get to hive and your broodlord/infestor army faster. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:41 sickkungen wrote: It isn't about the fun, it isn't about dealing wih it, because you can't. It is about balance. If the Protoss blocks your ramp with 3 pylons the game is over. 6 pool can be stopped with skill, that's the difference. If you are losing to 6 pool, there is a serious problem in your play. A gateway first opening, a 13 forge opening with 13 probe scout, or a 9 probe scout nexus first all stop 6 pool easily. Even in ZvZ, hatch first will always beat 6/7/8 pools. Ramp blocks on the other hand, do not have any countermeasures, and no build is safer against ramp blocks than any other. You can go 10 pool, if you get ramp blocked, you lose, you won't have lings out in time to break the wall. That's the difference. And I don't think it would be a bad thing to ask for 2 overlords for a spawning pool, actually. 6/7/8 pool is not viable in ZvZ, and it does seem viable in ZvP, doesn't 10 pool do the same thing? It's pretty easy to define though. It's not fun. There's nothing you can do against it that doesn't hurt you playing a standard game that will happen 99% of the time, and the 'solution' to this build does not take any skill. 6 pool defense doesn't require any skill, it just requires the proper response. Sometimes you can use micro, though, to beat it (like CC first vs 6 pool). But ramp block does not matter at all about micro, and you absolutely lose to something that's extremely easy to execute. It's not fun. It's clearly abusive. Other abusive things are all vs Zerg stuff (2 pylons to ramp block, 5 rax reaper, 8 rax reaper, etc) so I don't know of a good example to really give you. It's much more than something being OP like the old EMP. MrLLama, just because you make a 5 minute lair, doesnt mean you get broodlords out quicker. You gotta have 5, at least 4, bases to max out on broods. It's not really useful to rush broodlords if you just get 3 unsupported broods. Anything less macro oriented than standard play is just goign to result in much, much weaker broodlord/hive tech, or later. Otherwise, everyone would go 1 base lair as their opening. I think your video response was really interesting, haven't watched rep but will do so, but I don't think you can act like you are in an optimal situation when going 1 base lair. It seemed like you would be behind against a competent toss. i'll have to watch the rep. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
That is why I think Zerg should work on how to play after being blocked, and not try to avoid the block, cause just like early pool, you can try to go standard, but you will get crushed, so you have to go to a different path which you are not used to. If you will be ready for the block I think you have good chances to be ahead of the Protoss, or at least equal.  | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On August 31 2012 11:10 moskonia wrote: How about letting the pylon block get up? if you make queen as fast as you can it can actually shoot the pylons without any retaliation, so in the end what do we get? a late expand by you and an earlier expand by Protoss, but since you have the option to tech you WILL force at least 2 and probably 3 cannons at his base, if he doesn't get them then your bane bust / roach ling all in will easily break in. You can actually do some neat stuff like going fast upgrades, or 1base lair tech, which should be viable considering all his money lost on cannons and pylons, but the problem is that you are not used to it. That is why I think Zerg should work on how to play after being blocked, and not try to avoid the block, cause just like early pool, you can try to go standard, but you will get crushed, so you have to go to a different path which you are not used to. If you will be ready for the block I think you have good chances to be ahead of the Protoss, or at least equal. Completely agree. Embrace the different style! I love it when protoss does this | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On August 31 2012 05:27 OrbitalPlane wrote: suply depots are silly. On a lot of maps it prevents some better building placement to FFE. Against some early pools you can wall your ramp at the bottom or you can wall against some zergling runbys later if there is NO supply depot. I have done this cheese years ago. This isn't really a new build. On a lot of maps the zerg can just place one creep tumor and one spine and will be way ahead. On some maps its too far but you have still a lot of choices then. As long as you keep calm, don't pull drones and keep macroing you can do nearly everything. I have seen 1 base muta, hydra, roach all in, 3 roach expand, nydus, baneling bust and speedling drops etc. Just keep scouting his base, toss wont have any anti air and choose a counter build. you can just kill the depot and deny runbys. its not like zerg has speedlings for a long time. vs 6 pool just build a cannon in main mineral line and play standard game. stop comparing 6 pool (which is a fucking huge investment and can easily be countered) with a strat that is insta gg if the wall off is complete AND isnt even close as big an investment as a 6 pool. especially the 3 pylon block is just a 50 (!!!) minerals investment if the P player has to cancel the first 2 pylons...thats just retarded and in no way comparable to a 6 pool! | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
If a non-negligiable fraction of PvZ games are ramp-block-gg, that is going to inflate PvZ win-rates on ladder. So Blizzard won't ever see statistics of Zerg crushing Protoss face is mid-late game (should that be the case), because it will be masked by a bunch of early wins. Normally this wouldn't be an issue: such a situation is balanced, even if it's not fun. But tournament maps don't allow this tactic. So you could end up with the worrying situation of a balanced ladder matchup, and a terribly imbalanced tournament match up, because a powerful and play impacting Protoss strategy is not possible. Worth considering. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On August 31 2012 19:28 Dragar wrote: Here's a reason why you should all care: Blizzard does at least some level of balance analysis based on ladder statistics. If a non-negligiable fraction of PvZ games are ramp-block-gg, that is going to inflate PvZ win-rates on ladder. So Blizzard won't ever see statistics of Zerg crushing Protoss face is mid-late game (should that be the case), because it will be masked by a bunch of early wins. Normally this wouldn't be an issue: such a situation is balanced, even if it's not fun. But tournament maps don't allow this tactic. So you could end up with the worrying situation of a balanced ladder matchup, and a terribly imbalanced tournament match up, because a powerful and play impacting Protoss strategy is not possible. Worth considering. yeah pvz in tournaments is really terribly imbalanced (ROFL). think before you post! | ||
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CWPiRatE
United States33 Posts
Thats just my approach, but in all honesty, Blizzard just needs to fix it, whether making bottom of ramp unbuildable or neutral supply depot. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On August 31 2012 19:20 Decendos wrote: you can just kill the depot and deny runbys. its not like zerg has speedlings for a long time. Right if i FFE i have units for that. And sure if i have the first zealot i won't use it to scout or to block the entrance. Also nice if you focus the depot with your canon and the zerglings runs by meanwhile. I guess u never played as toss e.g on antiga against an 8 pool. How do you wall if there is a supply depot? vs 6 pool just build a cannon in main mineral line and play standard game. What do you think is more effektive. Walling at the ramp or defending at your minerale line? If you are in doubt watch socke against morrow on cloud kingdom in the PokerStrategy.com League. It's from yesterday. stop comparing 6 pool (which is a fucking huge investment and can easily be countered) with a strat that is insta gg if the wall off is complete AND isnt even close as big an investment as a 6 pool. especially the 3 pylon block is just a 50 (!!!) minerals investment if the P player has to cancel the first 2 pylons...thats just retarded and in no way comparable to a 6 pool! sick reading skills you have there. Maybe you should read every post twice if you don't get it the first time. Or if you don't get it then either press F3 and type 6 pool. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On September 01 2012 00:07 OrbitalPlane wrote: What do you think is more effektiv. Walling at the ramp or defending at your minerale line? If you are in doubt watch socke against morrow on cloud kingdom in the PokerStrategy.com League. It's from yesterday. sick reading skills you have there. Maybe you should read every post two times if you don't get it the first time. Or if you don't get it then press F3 and type 6 pool. if walling off on antiga wouldnt be possible every pro would play 8 pool on antiga. just because it worked one time were toss didnt react accordingly doesnt mean neutral depot is imba. to the 2nd thing you wrote. dont know what you mean with that...explain. its just boring to argue with some noob toss players while every pro and tournament has accepted this strat as imbalanced and therefore has a neutral depot. thats just an objective fact that cant be argued so blizzard should just add the depot and dont give free wins to P. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On September 01 2012 00:13 Decendos wrote: if walling off on antiga wouldnt be possible every pro would play 8 pool on antiga. It's actually not too uncommon to do a 8-10 pool on antiga. It's obviously possible to defend an 8pool. i am just asking you how you wall on this map. just because it worked one time were toss didnt react accordingly doesnt mean neutral depot is imba. Was i talking about a specific case? to the 2nd thing you wrote. dont know what you mean with that...explain. doesn't surprise me too much. its just boring to argue with some noob toss players Use http://sc2ranks.com before you call someone a noob.while every pro and tournament has accepted this strat as imbalanced and therefore has a neutral depot. i wondere where you did hear that. I heard a lot of pros complaining about it.thats just an objective fact that cant be argued so blizzard should just add the depot and dont give free wins to P. free win only if you don't know how to defend it. A lot of ppl fail to defend 4 gate, maybe they should patch that out too? | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On September 01 2012 00:30 OrbitalPlane wrote: It's actually not too uncommon to do a 8-10 pool on antiga. It's obviously possible to defend an 8pool. i am just asking you how you wall on this map. Was i talking about a specific case? doesn't surprise me too much. Use http://sc2ranks.com before you call someone a noob. i wondere where you did hear that. I heard a lot of pros complaining about it. free win only if you don't know how to defend it. A lot of ppl fail to defend 4 gate, maybe they should patch that out too? yes you were talking about a specific game: socke vs morrow. and obv there is no problem with 8 pool on antiga since its in tournaments and if there would be a problem zerg would 8 pool every game on antiga which they dont! so now you compare this with 4 gate. gratz, your arguments are getting more stupid every time! its broken and therefore not allowed on the highest level. thats it from my side talking to you since you dont accept that its imba on highest level and you just love free wins with no skill or be pretty ahead if zerg patrols drone. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 01 2012 00:30 OrbitalPlane wrote: free win only if you don't know how to defend it. A lot of ppl fail to defend 4 gate, maybe they should patch that out too? I thought they did patch 4 gate...nerfing it so it hits ~a minute later? Off topic though. We're talking about ramp blocks not 4 gates. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
I am NOT using the word 6 pool even once! people reply to my post with: stop comparing 6 pool (which is a fucking huge investment and can easily be countered) with a strat that is insta gg if the wall off is complete AND isnt even close as big an investment as a 6 pool. especially the 3 pylon block is just a 50 (!!!) minerals investment if the P player has to cancel the first 2 pylons...thats just retarded and in no way comparable to a 6 pool! I am talking about walling at the ramp or defending in the mineral line e.g. the socke morrow game. (There isn't even a supply depot that matters at cloud kingdom.) People read: supply depot is OP I am talking about that only because some ppl loose to stragegies (e.g. 4 gate) doesn't mean it's op. People response: they nerfed 4 gate... I am speechless. This is my last post on this matter. | ||
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