EPT[H]ZvP Ramp Blocked - Page 13
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
http://de.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/330792766 The guy he's playing is a known maphacker, and I know the situation isn't exactly as described, but if you can deny highground vision, I think this might work. | ||
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eskashaborn
United States177 Posts
This one speaks for itself, see previous post for explanation!!!! oh and vote in the poll  | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On September 04 2012 13:35 AgentW wrote: I don't play Zerg so I might not be on the point here, but might something like this work? I saw Stephano do it on stream earlier: http://de.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/330792766 The guy he's playing is a known maphacker, and I know the situation isn't exactly as described, but if you can deny highground vision, I think this might work. Stephano won only because the maphacker was terrible compared to how good stephano was. It was stupid not to make backup pylon for the cannon. Without it, a queen could simply kill the unpowered cannon and expand so much earlier. Also, on other maps, your spine crawler cannont reach the ramp right away because usually ramp is not so close to the initial creep range. Antiga shipyard is possibly the worst map to try the wall-in due to ramp proximity to the creep. Until Protoss lost all sentries for no reason by wandering around on creep even after denying 3rd, or suiciding into spine wall, I am sure Protoss was way ahead and should have won. VIsion or no vision is not what matters. It is the fact that Zerg cannot expand like forever once walled in. Thanks for posting, though. It is just hilarious to see Protoss lose after having unlosable position. How...is it even possible to lose from being that far ahead...Also, Stephano's decision making is insanely good. Can't believe he pulled it off. | ||
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
On September 04 2012 14:16 Orek wrote: Stephano won only because the maphacker was terrible compared to how good stephano was. It was stupid not to make backup pylon for the cannon. Without it, a queen could simply kill the unpowered cannon and expand so much earlier. Also, on other maps, your spine crawler cannont reach the ramp right away because usually ramp is not so close to the initial creep range. Antiga shipyard is possibly the worst map to try the wall-in due to ramp proximity to the creep. Until Protoss lost all sentries for no reason by wandering around on creep even after denying 3rd, or suiciding into spine wall, I am sure Protoss was way ahead and should have won. VIsion or no vision is not what matters. It is the fact that Zerg cannot expand like forever once walled in. Thanks for posting, though. It is just hilarious to see Protoss lose after having unlosable position. How...is it even possible to lose from being that far ahead...Also, Stephano's decision making is insanely good. Can't believe he pulled it off. Okay, I see how all of those factors contributed to his victory. I think even a second cannon and fourth pylon would have been it. Again, thanks for the clarification! | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
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Don.681
Philippines189 Posts
If you see the pylon you can send 4 drones to kill it right? Speaking as Protoss here though. | ||
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Guardian1972
United States40 Posts
Since blizzard probably not going to add the supply depot at the bottom of the ramps , the best solution is park ovie over the ramp on 2 player maps , when playing toss players ( playing against random I would do it by defualt ) . I do this and haven't had a problem ( thou my skill level is not as high as yours ... just high plat ) . The slight delay shouldn't effect much and would have given you a good chance on winning the game .... Just a thought | ||
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Don.681
Philippines189 Posts
On September 04 2012 22:51 Guardian1972 wrote: The only conclusion to prevent what happened in the replay is having early scout of the first pylon .... I usually play random but my best race is toss .... I know when I scout as toss ( against terran and toss ) ... I do extensive scouting with my probe ( to the point that it doesn't scout the opponent at the best time ) . It is something that must be done or i will get owned by proxy 2 rax or proxy gate or cannon rush . It's not ideal to scout that way , but the job is to prevent early wins by your opponent Since blizzard probably not going to add the supply depot at the bottom of the ramps , the best solution is park ovie over the ramp on 2 player maps , when playing toss players ( playing against random I would do it by defualt ) . I do this and haven't had a problem ( thou my skill level is not as high as yours ... just high plat ) . The slight delay shouldn't effect much and would have given you a good chance on winning the game .... Just a thought This does not only apply to Zerg, it applies to all XvP matchups. An early pylon near your base will always be a bad thing whatever race you are. PvP, we protoss always need to scout around the base for proxies so we don't get cannon rushed/proxy gated. PvT, an un-scouted pylon in a terran base before a wall in is a disaster. So, all races should be looking out for early proxy pylons IMO. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Hey I just had a really weird thing happen to me. So QuanticFlo tried to ramp block me, but since I had a drone after her probe, i was able to prevent that third pylon going down in the middle. As a response, she instead put 2 pylons around, so it was this weird 4 pylon ramp block. Now I've had this scenario come up before, it's sort of weird, I'm not really sure what you are supposed to do but I think drone drilling has always worked for me against it? Not really tested enough, but with lings coming from a 14 pool i feel it's worth drilling against. Anyways, when doing the drone drill, something really weird happened: A normal drone drill, you stack up, hit a-move, the drones do a huge attack all at once, and then they spread out. Well, when I did the drone drill this time, I just hit a-move once, and the drones stay stuck together, and continued to attack the pylon. I only pulled about half of my drones for this (because I guess my pool was finishing, I don't know). They quickly broke through with a perfect drone drill, and I was able to clean up his cannon rush with reinforcing lings and drone micro. Just curious - what the fuck happened? Did I benefit from some sort of glitch? And on a side note, was it worth drone drilling against? If someone does a 4 pylon ramp block to you because you block the ramp with a drone, what should you do against it? Should you try to drone drill that? Do you just lose? What goes on? I lucked out in this game, but did I respond correctly? On a side note, it really sucked that despite holding off his cannon rush perfectly, I didn't really get ahead. This guy invested into 4 pylons, and made 3 cannons (and then cancelled them). Despite all of this, we both seemed like we were both put back by the same amount (it felt like we were delayed by about a minute, both of us, like our builds were both paused for a minute). He followed up with a twilight (seemed like a DT rush) that he cancelled when my overlord got close and then reactively went some sort of 7 gate all-in that had already taken a 3rd gas so it was weaker and later than it should have been... I crushed him really easily. But had he played competently, I don't understand, I feel like it would have been a normal game, and he wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block or cannon rush. Did my macro just screw up? I got supply blocked at 18 (yea, the worst mistake you can possibly make against early pressure, I know), but it wasn't taht big a deal since I was only making a queen and I was taking my third then anyways (i mean I didn't feel I was delayed, and my money wasn't banking). Thanks. If some people could check out this rep, that'd be really cool. I'm glad I won, but I'm really confused why I wasn't more ahead than I was (i was pretty damn greedy, good thing this guy sucked or else I might have lost for that), and I'm confused on what the proper response is to a 4 pylon ramp block after you successfully deny a 3 pylon ramp block, and what the fuck happened with my drone drill that it glitched out in the way it did. Maybe stealth buff to drone drilling? That'd be awesome. http://drop.sc/247465 tldr I block a 3 pylon ramp block, toss responds by putting up a 4pylon ramp block (puts 2 pylons around the middle that I had blocked). I drone drill, and my drones glitch out where the drone drill automated itself instead of me having to manually drone drill. Was this the right response to a 4 pylon ramp block, why did my drones glitch out like that and the drone drill went automatically, and why wasn't I more ahead against a failed cannon rush? | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On September 05 2012 13:03 Belial88 wrote: New Question! Hey I just had a really weird thing happen to me. So QuanticFlo tried to ramp block me, but since I had a drone after her probe, i was able to prevent that third pylon going down in the middle. As a response, she instead put 2 pylons around, so it was this weird 4 pylon ramp block. Now I've had this scenario come up before, it's sort of weird, I'm not really sure what you are supposed to do but I think drone drilling has always worked for me against it? Not really tested enough, but with lings coming from a 14 pool i feel it's worth drilling against. Anyways, when doing the drone drill, something really weird happened: A normal drone drill, you stack up, hit a-move, the drones do a huge attack all at once, and then they spread out. Well, when I did the drone drill this time, I just hit a-move once, and the drones stay stuck together, and continued to attack the pylon. I only pulled about half of my drones for this (because I guess my pool was finishing, I don't know). They quickly broke through with a perfect drone drill, and I was able to clean up his cannon rush with reinforcing lings and drone micro. Just curious - what the fuck happened? Did I benefit from some sort of glitch? And on a side note, was it worth drone drilling against? If someone does a 4 pylon ramp block to you because you block the ramp with a drone, what should you do against it? Should you try to drone drill that? Do you just lose? What goes on? I lucked out in this game, but did I respond correctly? On a side note, it really sucked that despite holding off his cannon rush perfectly, I didn't really get ahead. This guy invested into 4 pylons, and made 3 cannons (and then cancelled them). Despite all of this, we both seemed like we were both put back by the same amount (it felt like we were delayed by about a minute, both of us, like our builds were both paused for a minute). He followed up with a twilight (seemed like a DT rush) that he cancelled when my overlord got close and then reactively went some sort of 7 gate all-in that had already taken a 3rd gas so it was weaker and later than it should have been... I crushed him really easily. But had he played competently, I don't understand, I feel like it would have been a normal game, and he wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block or cannon rush. Did my macro just screw up? I got supply blocked at 18 (yea, the worst mistake you can possibly make against early pressure, I know), but it wasn't taht big a deal since I was only making a queen and I was taking my third then anyways (i mean I didn't feel I was delayed, and my money wasn't banking). Thanks. If some people could check out this rep, that'd be really cool. I'm glad I won, but I'm really confused why I wasn't more ahead than I was (i was pretty damn greedy, good thing this guy sucked or else I might have lost for that), and I'm confused on what the proper response is to a 4 pylon ramp block after you successfully deny a 3 pylon ramp block, and what the fuck happened with my drone drill that it glitched out in the way it did. Maybe stealth buff to drone drilling? That'd be awesome. http://drop.sc/247465 tldr I block a 3 pylon ramp block, toss responds by putting up a 4pylon ramp block (puts 2 pylons around the middle that I had blocked). I drone drill, and my drones glitch out where the drone drill automated itself instead of me having to manually drone drill. Was this the right response to a 4 pylon ramp block, why did my drones glitch out like that and the drone drill went automatically, and why wasn't I more ahead against a failed cannon rush? watched the game you definitely just benefited from a glitch. If you noticed the first few times after you drone drilled it almost kinda glitched, then one time it got caught and you were golden. that only happens with a 4 pylon wall like that though. The thing about 4 pylon walls is that they allow too much surface area to be focused down on 1-2 pylons, so they are a lot easier to take out than a normal 3 pylon wall (even without drone drilling). Once you got down the ramp and the cannons were cancelled, you should've run your lings over to his base to try and get in and catch him off guard. A lot of times you can sneak in before the cannon and 6 lings is annoying as ever to deal with. That being said, you were never behind or even after that. Just look at the harvester count. A protoss who doesn't mess around with pylon blocks will be ahead of harvesters until like 37-40 where the zerg can pass him up. With flo, you passed him at 25 harvesters, leaving him well behind which is why his 8 gate didn't even have a chance to move across the map. | ||
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AceLight
New Zealand220 Posts
On September 05 2012 13:03 Belial88 wrote: New Question! Hey I just had a really weird thing happen to me. So QuanticFlo tried to ramp block me, but since I had a drone after her probe, i was able to prevent that third pylon going down in the middle. As a response, she instead put 2 pylons around, so it was this weird 4 pylon ramp block. Now I've had this scenario come up before, it's sort of weird, I'm not really sure what you are supposed to do but I think drone drilling has always worked for me against it? Not really tested enough, but with lings coming from a 14 pool i feel it's worth drilling against. Anyways, when doing the drone drill, something really weird happened: A normal drone drill, you stack up, hit a-move, the drones do a huge attack all at once, and then they spread out. Well, when I did the drone drill this time, I just hit a-move once, and the drones stay stuck together, and continued to attack the pylon. I only pulled about half of my drones for this (because I guess my pool was finishing, I don't know). They quickly broke through with a perfect drone drill, and I was able to clean up his cannon rush with reinforcing lings and drone micro. Just curious - what the fuck happened? Did I benefit from some sort of glitch? And on a side note, was it worth drone drilling against? If someone does a 4 pylon ramp block to you because you block the ramp with a drone, what should you do against it? Should you try to drone drill that? Do you just lose? What goes on? I lucked out in this game, but did I respond correctly? On a side note, it really sucked that despite holding off his cannon rush perfectly, I didn't really get ahead. This guy invested into 4 pylons, and made 3 cannons (and then cancelled them). Despite all of this, we both seemed like we were both put back by the same amount (it felt like we were delayed by about a minute, both of us, like our builds were both paused for a minute). He followed up with a twilight (seemed like a DT rush) that he cancelled when my overlord got close and then reactively went some sort of 7 gate all-in that had already taken a 3rd gas so it was weaker and later than it should have been... I crushed him really easily. But had he played competently, I don't understand, I feel like it would have been a normal game, and he wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block or cannon rush. Did my macro just screw up? I got supply blocked at 18 (yea, the worst mistake you can possibly make against early pressure, I know), but it wasn't taht big a deal since I was only making a queen and I was taking my third then anyways (i mean I didn't feel I was delayed, and my money wasn't banking). Thanks. If some people could check out this rep, that'd be really cool. I'm glad I won, but I'm really confused why I wasn't more ahead than I was (i was pretty damn greedy, good thing this guy sucked or else I might have lost for that), and I'm confused on what the proper response is to a 4 pylon ramp block after you successfully deny a 3 pylon ramp block, and what the fuck happened with my drone drill that it glitched out in the way it did. Maybe stealth buff to drone drilling? That'd be awesome. http://drop.sc/247465 tldr I block a 3 pylon ramp block, toss responds by putting up a 4pylon ramp block (puts 2 pylons around the middle that I had blocked). I drone drill, and my drones glitch out where the drone drill automated itself instead of me having to manually drone drill. Was this the right response to a 4 pylon ramp block, why did my drones glitch out like that and the drone drill went automatically, and why wasn't I more ahead against a failed cannon rush? First note - Yeah I think its a glitch. 2nd Note - you say "He wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block" 3rd note - Flo plays terran O_o | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
yea, going by like supply and timings, he doesnt seem really delayed in his build at all. just sort of comparing the game. I watched the rep, and then watched a standard zvp vod from like sc2casts of a recent game. When I hit 30, 40, 23, etc, toss is roughly at the supply he is in that game i compared it to, and his buildings and production is in similar places (ie third is started when I'm about 23, and toss is halfway done with a gateway, in this game, he was at like 19 instead of 21, a little bit behind, not as much as id expect, but his gate is nearly done, and a few other things were ahead, so it seemed like it wasnt behind). | ||
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DMaster
Romania61 Posts
every once in a while a thread with this theme appears .. ramp blocked ZvP ... soon enough it dies, and this is an issue that many zergs are facing ... you do get pylon blocked ... you do get mad like hell, after all those hours watching professional streams and the GSL you realize it all means nothing when you get confined in your base ... even the great NesTea fell to this horrible horrible strat. so what now ? ... are we really going to let this threa die again ? we need a solution ... we need to try the craziest strats and make Protoss and Terrans that block you honest again ... even something with a 40% success rate would be good, we cannot stay ( forever ) alone in our bases, isolated and waiting to die. the OP needs to compile all the options we might have in a list and we must try them and see which one needs refining, here is my idea: ... macro hatch in base ... 2 gas ... lair ... get overlord drop ... and ovi speed and mass zerling drop ... with drones and queens and all u got ... leave 1 spine or 2 at home ... DMaster | ||
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Atthasit
Russian Federation81 Posts
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DMaster
Romania61 Posts
On September 05 2012 20:19 Atthasit wrote: If we figured a way out of this with a decent success rate wouldn't it be obvious for everyone blocking us that we would follow with that figured way which would make it very easy for them to defend? yes ... a metagame would develop around it which is fine, currently we just ... DIE ! | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On September 05 2012 17:39 DMaster wrote: hi everyone, every once in a while a thread with this theme appears .. ramp blocked ZvP ... soon enough it dies, and this is an issue that many zergs are facing ... you do get pylon blocked ... you do get mad like hell, after all those hours watching professional streams and the GSL you realize it all means nothing when you get confined in your base ... even the great NesTea fell to this horrible horrible strat. so what now ? ... are we really going to let this threa die again ? we need a solution ... we need to try the craziest strats and make Protoss and Terrans that block you honest again ... even something with a 40% success rate would be good, we cannot stay ( forever ) alone in our bases, isolated and waiting to die. the OP needs to compile all the options we might have in a list and we must try them and see which one needs refining, here is my idea: ... macro hatch in base ... 2 gas ... lair ... get overlord drop ... and ovi speed and mass zerling drop ... with drones and queens and all u got ... leave 1 spine or 2 at home ... DMaster I've already got multiple videos up for this. The nice thing is that you have control because he has to be worried about so many things. 1. sneak your scout drone for a 2nd hatch somewhere and go 2base muta 2. fast lair, upgrades, and infestation pit in your base while you move out and grab your 2nd/3rd. If he tries to all in you, you have lings and infestors with full upgrades so he can't push into it. If he goes for a 3rd you can go for a 4th and tech to hive. 3. You can go for a nydus all in 4. You can go for drops. Ling drops would need banes with them but I'd recommend hydra drops instead (in which case you'd probably want to have another base somewhere or push out first then grab hydras and go for drops 5. etc... There's really SO much you can do...I love it when I get blocked | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On September 04 2012 13:35 AgentW wrote: I don't play Zerg so I might not be on the point here, but might something like this work? I saw Stephano do it on stream earlier: http://de.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/330792766 The guy he's playing is a known maphacker, and I know the situation isn't exactly as described, but if you can deny highground vision, I think this might work. FnaticTRICKY is most likely french-canadian based on his incorrect english, the fact that he did speak multiple french sentences (which makes it hard for him to copy paste from a google translator) and the space before his questionmarks e.g : "Umad ?" Could it be possible for someone to find out who this kid is? what a pathetic kid/man. everything about FnaticTricky is pathetic,first of all; hes trying to make stephano rage, a guy who've won sooooo much money out of sc2, his grades are good enough for medschool and he doesnt seem to have any trouble in his life, why would he in any way get angry by some basementdweller on the ladder. secondly, hes a known maphacker so theres no pathetic pride in his GM-placement, thirdly and this is the worst part; at the end when stephano C-R-U-S-H-E-D him he actually got really angry and showed some real emotions, which means that hes taking pride in his maphacking sessions, probably even investing time and effort into a game which he cant even bring top players down in by using hacks... Pathetic. I pity this guy, his life must be so empty.. Ontopic: The only reason Stephano won the game is because hes such a superior player, Tricky made some really stupid mistakes. | ||
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On August 24 2012 12:58 Belial88 wrote: Drone drilling is a joke, Toss can reinforce the wall-in, so don't tell me that, not to mention it doesn't work on most spawns, and a drone drill doesn't exactly work on a building like a forge with so much HP. Drone drilling deals insane amounts of damage and you can drone drill on every single spawn. If your drones won't stack onto the natural minerals, take a different mineral patch, at the 3rd or 4th. There will always be a mineral patch which is clickable. Then you can click the minerals -> A-move -> click minerals -> a-move -> click minerals -> a-move. et cetera. You can also use camera hotkeys to target a building right after the stacking but this is much trickier and might unstack them. Something tells me you made this thread for kicks and funs rather than to be serious. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On top of all of that, though, is that the ramp block discussed in this thread, and in the replay, was a 10 pylon/10 forge, with the forge in the drillable spot, which you cannot drone drill through a building forge. Something tells me you have no clue what you are talking about, and you entered this thread to sound smart, but you just look like a fool. If you had read just the last page, you'd realize the conversation has moved way past what you have said. Thanks, thanks a lot for posting something 20 other people already posted, and got warned for, and that is incorrect, useless, and not helpful or even relevant. This is where the thread is now: 1. Discussing ways to play 1 base lair/all-in and just ignoring the ramp block 2. Possible ways to prevent a 10/10 ramp block (sending initial overlord to spot ramp at 1:00, sending a drone at 1:00 to check ramp real quick) 3. Is drone drilling worth it against a 4 pylon ramp block when you have a drone block a 3 pylon 17 ramp block, and discussion on this replay and the following: On September 05 2012 15:07 AceLight wrote: First note - Yeah I think its a glitch. 2nd Note - you say "He wouldn't be behind for attempting to do a ramp block" 3rd note - Flo plays terran O_o | ||
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