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On September 12 2012 06:53 ishyishy wrote:I'm mid-master protoss. I have never had the option to do this kind of cheese because the zerg always follows my probe. Literally every zerg that I have played in the last year and a half has followed my probe. THey eventually stop because i get to keep pecking at the drone when shields regen, but by that time, my probe is either on the other side of the map, or he has 2 lings out to scout because he didnt try for a greedy 14 hatch. Also, the last time I saw this happen in a tournament or on a stream was over a year ago, and think about it this way: if the protoss fails at doing this cheese, they are infinitely behind and should automatically lose the game if the zerg is any kind of competant. There is no need for a depot below the ramp, you are just playing poorly. The only reason why tournaments use them is so they can force longer games in some match ups or cut down on cheese options for the fans (i actually enjoy cheesey games more than macro games  ).
You are clearly a troll. But i will still respond.
So you are saying all your zerg opponents are always pulling an early drone that stays close to his ramp (he cannot scout with it, he must stay close to his ramp) and greets your early scout probe? Then those zergs are loosing significant eco and are already putting themselves slightly behind since the game mainly (if not exclusively) is balanced from tournament statistics. And tournaments as you know have neutral depot on all maps.
Tournaments use them because everyone who can be considered somewhat knowledgeable of this games agrees that the ramp block (wether its P making 2 pylons or T making 2 bunkers) is a low risk/instawin gamble that requires zergs to always blindly sacrifise eco in order to prevent it. Thats why they chose to "ban" it and since then the game balancing has been done from a game that has no option to do such a gamble.
And as i see it the main issue is that practise from ladder must be relevant for tournament games. A ramp block game has 0 relevance when it comes to preparing for tournaments.
So yes, lets get this done. All terrans and protosses with self respect should join in the cause so that we can make blizzard implement depots in ladder.
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On September 12 2012 06:53 ishyishy wrote:I'm mid-master protoss. I have never had the option to do this kind of cheese because the zerg always follows my probe. Literally every zerg that I have played in the last year and a half has followed my probe. THey eventually stop because i get to keep pecking at the drone when shields regen, but by that time, my probe is either on the other side of the map, or he has 2 lings out to scout because he didnt try for a greedy 14 hatch. Also, the last time I saw this happen in a tournament or on a stream was over a year ago, and think about it this way: if the protoss fails at doing this cheese, they are infinitely behind and should automatically lose the game if the zerg is any kind of competant. There is no need for a depot below the ramp, you are just playing poorly. The only reason why tournaments use them is so they can force longer games in some match ups or cut down on cheese options for the fans (i actually enjoy cheesey games more than macro games ).
Try watching the replay and reading the OP. I guarantee you are not sending out a 6 probe scout and that probe is getting followed when it's hanging out in the natural. You must be talking about the more common 17 ramp block, which is not what is being discussed at all.
The last time you saw this in a tournament was over a year ago was because of neutral depots. Blizzcon was the last tournament that had no depots, and it was an embarassment, everyone commented on it and blizzard I believe made a statement on it. Naniwa actually attempted to ramp block Nestea, and Nestea put a drone on patrol at the ramp to avoid it.
But this sort of ramp block, the 17 ramp block, is not what is being discussed.
The reasons tournaments use neutral depots is because it's broken as fuck. It has nothing to do with cheese, otherwise you'd obviously see cuts in 2 rax favorable map architecture (ie entombed with the nook, for one example).
Anyways, I've noticed on certain maps spawns, this type of ramp block isn't a problem. For example, you can only do this 10 pylon 10 forge ramp block that occurred to me if you spawn in the south as Zerg. If you spawn in the north, your larva is closer to the ramp and your overlord will actually gain vision of the ramp in time.
The solution that I've come up with, is that the drone I make on 10, I send toward the ramp to check it real quick and then pull it back to go mine as soon as I see the ramp is clear. It's a loss of about 5 minerals that I only need to do on certain maps on certain spawns.
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On September 15 2012 11:59 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:53 ishyishy wrote:I'm mid-master protoss. I have never had the option to do this kind of cheese because the zerg always follows my probe. Literally every zerg that I have played in the last year and a half has followed my probe. THey eventually stop because i get to keep pecking at the drone when shields regen, but by that time, my probe is either on the other side of the map, or he has 2 lings out to scout because he didnt try for a greedy 14 hatch. Also, the last time I saw this happen in a tournament or on a stream was over a year ago, and think about it this way: if the protoss fails at doing this cheese, they are infinitely behind and should automatically lose the game if the zerg is any kind of competant. There is no need for a depot below the ramp, you are just playing poorly. The only reason why tournaments use them is so they can force longer games in some match ups or cut down on cheese options for the fans (i actually enjoy cheesey games more than macro games ). Try watching the replay and reading the OP. I guarantee you are not sending out a 6 probe scout and that probe is getting followed when it's hanging out in the natural. You must be talking about the more common 17 ramp block, which is not what is being discussed at all. The last time you saw this in a tournament was over a year ago was because of neutral depots. Blizzcon was the last tournament that had no depots, and it was an embarassment, everyone commented on it and blizzard I believe made a statement on it. Naniwa actually attempted to ramp block Nestea, and Nestea put a drone on patrol at the ramp to avoid it. But this sort of ramp block, the 17 ramp block, is not what is being discussed. The reasons tournaments use neutral depots is because it's broken as fuck. It has nothing to do with cheese, otherwise you'd obviously see cuts in 2 rax favorable map architecture (ie entombed with the nook, for one example). Anyways, I've noticed on certain maps spawns, this type of ramp block isn't a problem. For example, you can only do this 10 pylon 10 forge ramp block that occurred to me if you spawn in the south as Zerg. If you spawn in the north, your larva is closer to the ramp and your overlord will actually gain vision of the ramp in time. The solution that I've come up with, is that the drone I make on 10, I send toward the ramp to check it real quick and then pull it back to go mine as soon as I see the ramp is clear. It's a loss of about 5 minerals that I only need to do on certain maps on certain spawns.
That is quite infuriating that you even have to resort to that just because of this broken map.
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On September 15 2012 11:59 Belial88 wrote:
The solution that I've come up with, is that the drone I make on 10, I send toward the ramp to check it real quick and then pull it back to go mine as soon as I see the ramp is clear. It's a loss of about 5 minerals that I only need to do on certain maps on certain spawns.
Are you saying that you are sending that drone to give vision and after that your second overlord will provide the vision? Imo the second overlord needs to be sent directly to scout the opponent (on a 4 player map) that you have not yet scouted with your first overlord and should not have to stick around for a significant time over your natural. But ok, given you do this, does this mean that you always send out a drone from your mineral line once you see a probe approaching your natural (the scouting probe that 9 out of 10 games will come to your natural relatively early) so that you can be there and block in time? Often the scouting probes come very early (atleast on a 2 player map) so then you arent really doing much better then if you just sent out that drone blindly right away. You are in other words doing a slightly better version of just sending an early drone out blindly to patrol the ramp. This does not justify blizzard not implementing the depots.
Either we have a game that we balance around the depot version of the game (like blizzard has done lately, they refer to tournament play when they talk about balance) or we have a game where we balance for a non depot version of the game. I really dont like that there is a difference between ladder and league/tournament play, when i practise in ladder i dont want to play out irrelevant scenarios just because my opponent chose to do a ramp block low risk/insta win gamble that cannot be done in a league/tournament game. So for me this aspect is more important than the balance aspect. I want to as much as possible practise openings/scenarios that i can have use of later when it actually matters, in a tournament or in a league game. I would even prefer tournaments removing the supply depot while blizzard doesnt add supply depots then having it be like it is now. Then atleast what i practise in ladder is relevant for tournament/leauge play and the game would be balanced based on the non supply depot version of the game, where zergs would always patrol ramps with drones very early in the game.
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Are you saying that you are sending that drone to give vision and after that your second overlord will provide the vision? Imo the second overlord needs to be sent directly to scout the opponent (on a 4 player map) that you have not yet scouted with your first overlord and should not have to stick around for a significant time over your natural.
The second overlord (9) needs to go to your natural, then your third, to make sure he isn't cannoning you. I send the 16 overlord to his main to sac, it ill get there way before 7:00 when I sac it, it'll arrive maybe 5 or so? so i can sac at 6:30. Many pros do this too. On 4 player maps you drone scout. I drone scout on all maps because you need to know if they are doing a proxy 2 gate by the time pool finishes or else you wont hold it. I bring it right back.
But to send a scout at 10 woudl be too early. So on certain maps, i just send the drone made at 10, the egg, to check ramp real quick, then back to mine. it's 5 minerals lost, and only on certain maps.
It's to prevent the 10/10 block specifically. The 13 forge block you just send 2 drones to take your natural - they can fight to take the nat if he tries to block the nat that you need to take, and that 2nd drone is there that I manually command so i can deny ramp blocks and such. i could also just put him on patrol but I think I'm high enough level now that I can manage the multtask. ive been able to stomp the 3 pylon ramp block at 17 multiple times doing this.
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Even if its a 2 player map i like to send my second overlord to scout right away so he can reach a scouting area close to the toss third exe safely, on some maps if you want your overlord to reach such an area safely you need to send it there straight away. Checking that no hidden cannons go up at your natural or third is what your initial lings are for (those lings that you always make blindly to deal with a possible pylon blocking hatch).
Even the smallest details are of significanse, you are sacing early overlord scouting as well as eco with a drone being sent out early, not to scout, but to block a potential ramp block from the standard scouting probe. And you wouldnt be doing this if you played the depot version of the game, then you would have the benefit of +x minerals and +overlord scouting. I want us sc2 players to all play the same version of the game, i dont like that i sometimes have to play out certain scenarios in ladder that has 0 relevance for league/tournament play.
I notice that you are the one who created this thread, are you saying you are fine with the ladder maps being as they are? Surely you must have known long time ago about the option to sac a certain amount of early drone mining time and a certain amount of overlord scouting to prevent pylon block? If you think that is not an issue then why did you create this thread?^^
Myself im ok with everyone playing the non depot version of the game (meaning we remove depots from tournament maps) or everyone playing the depot version of the game (meaning blizzard adding depots to ladder maps). Everyone playing the non depot version of the game could lead to small balance changes though, seing as zergs would always sac a certain amount of eco and scouting just to be able to deal with this 1 easy to execute gimmicky low risk/instawin gamble that is the insta ramp block.
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Even if its a 2 player map i like to send my second overlord to scout right away so he can reach a scouting area close to the toss third exe safely, on some maps if you want your overlord to reach such an area safely you need to send it there straight away. Checking that no hidden cannons go up at your natural or third is what your initial lings are for (those lings that you always make blindly to deal with a possible pylon blocking hatch).
I send my 23 overlord to Toss' third and it gets there by around 6-7:00.
If you rely on your initial lings to spot for cannons, you are actually just going to lose the game. 4 lings are not going to be nearly enough to stop 2 warping cannons in a smart location, and suddenly it's too late for you to build more lings (you have larva coming one by one, so at best you can get 2 lings at 24 seconds + ~5 travel time...).
Like say you find out he's actually cannoned up your third. On Shakuras. That's about a 10-15 second travel time. No way you are going to save that hatch.
I like to send my overlords immediately for scouting too, but you just can't do that. You need to send your 9 overlord to your natural, then to your third, to spot for cannons. I think there was a series, Hero vs.... some zerg, which showcased this. There was another series too where zerg got cannon rushed for this exact reason.
I'd be more than willing to prove you wrong though. If you dont have an overlord at the natural, or like a drone around there, you are going to lose to cannon rushes because your lings won't pop in time.
I think there should be neutral depots but that is entirely not the point of this thread. This thread is not for balance whine, it's to come up with the best possible solution for the circumstances we have. I'd like to win more games, that's all. Saying "there should be neutral depot" isn't exactly going to stop Toss from winning when they do this against me.
No, I did not think to send a drone at a specific time to check for ramp blocks. Toss could potentially just go pylon/forge anytime, but I think people pointed out that since Toss have to make that pylon at a specific timing (for probe production), this only goes down at 1:00. There's also more to it than that - what to do if it does go down, what's the cheapest wya to stop it (should you leave your initial overlord in your natural for a while, or should you pull a drone, for example).
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"If you rely on your initial lings to spot for cannons, you are actually just going to lose the game".
Isnt it better to spot a probe planting a pylon with a ling then an overlord? Im talking about standard 14 timing pool. I dont understand your logic, if you spot it with your overlord then your initial lings and your newly produced lings will have to move there to deal with it, when i spot it with a ling then atleast i already have 1 ling there so im getting a head start in starting attacking pylons while my other lings are already on their way. Right as the 4 lings pop their first prority is to clear the expansions and clear for probes, once that is done u still keep 2 of them around (1 checking natural 1 checking third) to deal with potential probes trying to sneek in to make pylons. When doing this you could indeed have gotten away with having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. So if you A) make sure you arent getting ramp blocked before lings pop and B) make sure 2 lings stick around to check for any probes after you have initially cleared the areas, then you are not at all loosing the game just by having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. Its smart though (on a 4 player map) to plan it so that your first overlord goes over your natural and then to scout a certain main while your second overlord goes over your third and then goes to scout the main the other direction, but this is not a necessity, your intial lings will run to clear your natural and your third just as fast when your second overlord isnt hovering above your natural/third as if the overlord in fact where hovering above one of these locations. But if you have an overlord hovering above a certain area then you obv dont have to blindly send lings to clear that area and can instead run with those lings towards oppo base earlier, which indeed is a good thing, but so is having an overlord safely planted at a spot to check for protoss third. And most protosses base their oppening (cannon timing) by spawn pool timing which means they will be safe against those 4 lings even if you send them directly towards your opponent.
I havent done any balance whining, if you read my posts the theme is that i dont like inconsistency between ladder maps and league/tournament maps. Thats why i want depot to be implemented in ladder OR removed from tournament maps. But id prefer for the first case to happen, since we can agree on that the ramp block is awful game design, and i appreciate you creating this thread partly to highlight this fact.
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I'm not sure why OP's post was warned, which makes it look less credible.
But guys, listen, this guy has a point. Watch the replay.
- He tried ramp block
- Toss did not show his probe
- He (kinda) reacted instantly upon seeing pylon at ramp
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On September 11 2012 16:20 fezvez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 15:43 Acritter wrote:
Out of curiosity, have there EVER been any major tournaments where this Pylon at ramp has been abused? The only times I can think of where lack of neutral depot had any effect were a game with IdrA way back in the beta (he broke down the barrier comfortably and then lost due to other reasons) and more recently with NesTea losing a game in Code S because he got dual Bunker blocked (the wrong map was being used so he wasn't expecting it at all, and this isn't ZvP in any case). So do we have any actual evidence that these Pylon blocks are overpowered, instead of just being strong because we don't have professional reactions to fall back on? It's very possible that they're balanced (if cheesy), and only seem overpowered because the tournament scene hasn't experienced them for most of the game's existence.
Regarding the argument that cheese isn't suitable for professional play: Broodwar had plenty of viable cheese builds, and was considered highly balanced. It's good to have cheese available, because it adds variety to the game. Watching FFE->Colo->3rd->Vortex versus 3hatch no gas->roach->infestor->broodlord game after game can be a little dull, and the question of "will it be cheese" adds excitement. I don't know the specifics of the history of ramp block, but I know that Idra gg'd a game 10 seconds after he discovered he was bunker blocked (on Metalopolis IIRC). I truly believe that this cheese is really OP, and this is backed by pro players. My main guess about why tournaments map have put supply depots at the bottom of the ramp is because this particular cheese is a skill-less cheese. 6 pooling your opponent? There's a foot long wall of text about how to do it properly. Cannon rushing? Idem. You still need to micro a decent number of stuff to make the cheese work, especially at high level of play. However, this very specific cheese need around two to three seconds. That's all. Two to three seconds and the game is over. I don't mind when I get 6 pooled, because I can defend it by microing my workers (even if I go CC first). But I just can't do anything against this particular cheese, this is why neutral depots.
Reasonable enough. I will offer one counterargument, which is that 10pool is still a HARD counter to hatch first (as in, do it and don't do anything obscenely stupid and you win), which is just as skill-free as a cannon rush. Similarly, some of the older tournament maps allowed Zergs to cop autowins with 6pools if the Protoss scouted in the wrong direction. But that's not a good argument as to why cannon rushes should be allowed, just one towards offering other areas of balance. The one thing that I would like is to see the Zerg put under similar pressure as the Protoss to scout and react to potential early cheese. Protoss is under the most pressure in all matchups to scout for more all-in play in the early game, what with early pools, Baneling busts, Roach/Speedling all-ins, 6rax all-ins, 1-1-1, 3rax pressure, proxy Marauder, and whatever else you can think of being quite viable. All of them can be dealt with quite handily once scouted (barring the 1-1-1, which is a strong but not overpowered build no matter which way you cut it), but it's still a bit annoying at times to see the difference. That's just me whinging, though. Pay it no heed.
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There's a big difference between going for a greedy build and getting punished for it and losing to a stupid insta-win ramp block like this...
Even a cannon rush (which I would argue DOES require skill to be successful at the highest level) can be stopped.
This thread is just beating the dead horse now.
TLDR ladder needs depots.
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On September 16 2012 04:06 Quochobao wrote:
I'm not sure why OP's post was warned, which makes it look less credible.
But guys, listen, this guy has a point. Watch the replay.
- He tried ramp block
- Toss did not show his probe
- He (kinda) reacted instantly upon seeing pylon at ramp
I was warned for using Big, Bold, Red text (reserved for mods). I changed it to Blue, no more problem.
Isnt it better to spot a probe planting a pylon with a ling then an overlord? Im talking about standard 14 timing pool. I dont understand your logic, if you spot it with your overlord then your initial lings and your newly produced lings will have to move there to deal with it, when i spot it with a ling then atleast i already have 1 ling there so im getting a head start in starting attacking pylons while my other lings are already on their way. Right as the 4 lings pop their first prority is to clear the expansions and clear for probes, once that is done u still keep 2 of them around (1 checking natural 1 checking third) to deal with potential probes trying to sneek in to make pylons. When doing this you could indeed have gotten away with having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. So if you A) make sure you arent getting ramp blocked before lings pop and B) make sure 2 lings stick around to check for any probes after you have initially cleared the areas, then you are not at all loosing the game just by having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. Its smart though (on a 4 player map) to plan it so that your first overlord goes over your natural and then to scout a certain main while your second overlord goes over your third and then goes to scout the main the other direction, but this is not a necessity, your intial lings will run to clear your natural and your third just as fast when your second overlord isnt hovering above your natural/third as if the overlord in fact where hovering above one of these locations. But if you have an overlord hovering above a certain area then you obv dont have to blindly send lings to clear that area and can instead run with those lings towards oppo base earlier, which indeed is a good thing, but so is having an overlord safely planted at a spot to check for protoss third. And most protosses base their oppening (cannon timing) by spawn pool timing which means they will be safe against those 4 lings even if you send them directly towards your opponent.
holy wall of text...
Lings will come too late to spot for cannon rushes. You are waiting 25 second make them for the lings, than another 10-20 seconds of travel time, and then because of waiting for larva, all you can do is make 2 more lings which won't do anything to stop a cannon. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush.
All lings do, is when used in conjunction with drones, add enough dps to end the timing window.
That's why hatch first always loses to a cannon rush from a standard 13 forge FFE. Toss eventually gets the money to throw down ~6 cannons/pylons, and since you need to pull 4-5 drones be building, it's just more buildings than you have drones. With 14 pool, you will have lings coming out to aid the drones. But if Toss is doing a hardcore cannon rush and throws down those 6 cannons, you can't just send your drones back and just rely on your lings, since even 4 lings won't beat a cannon.
sorry dude but you just have a huge wall of text and i have a lot of difficulty reading it.
If you want to test it out, pm me or belial.869@na and I can show you. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush, lings won't work alone. That's why you need to spot with your overlord. It's also about time, if you spot completed cannons with your 4 lings, it's a little late and you lose that base, you can't make enough lings to stop it, especially when it's placed in certain spots. You gotta use an overlord to spot for cannons/pylons as soon as they go down, and you gotta pull drones. Lings help, but drones are the way to stop cannon rushes. If you wait on lings, you'll just lose because you can't make enough lings, and the lings won't come out in time anyways.
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On September 16 2012 04:08 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 16:20 fezvez wrote:On September 11 2012 15:43 Acritter wrote:
Out of curiosity, have there EVER been any major tournaments where this Pylon at ramp has been abused? The only times I can think of where lack of neutral depot had any effect were a game with IdrA way back in the beta (he broke down the barrier comfortably and then lost due to other reasons) and more recently with NesTea losing a game in Code S because he got dual Bunker blocked (the wrong map was being used so he wasn't expecting it at all, and this isn't ZvP in any case). So do we have any actual evidence that these Pylon blocks are overpowered, instead of just being strong because we don't have professional reactions to fall back on? It's very possible that they're balanced (if cheesy), and only seem overpowered because the tournament scene hasn't experienced them for most of the game's existence.
Regarding the argument that cheese isn't suitable for professional play: Broodwar had plenty of viable cheese builds, and was considered highly balanced. It's good to have cheese available, because it adds variety to the game. Watching FFE->Colo->3rd->Vortex versus 3hatch no gas->roach->infestor->broodlord game after game can be a little dull, and the question of "will it be cheese" adds excitement. I don't know the specifics of the history of ramp block, but I know that Idra gg'd a game 10 seconds after he discovered he was bunker blocked (on Metalopolis IIRC). I truly believe that this cheese is really OP, and this is backed by pro players. My main guess about why tournaments map have put supply depots at the bottom of the ramp is because this particular cheese is a skill-less cheese. 6 pooling your opponent? There's a foot long wall of text about how to do it properly. Cannon rushing? Idem. You still need to micro a decent number of stuff to make the cheese work, especially at high level of play. However, this very specific cheese need around two to three seconds. That's all. Two to three seconds and the game is over. I don't mind when I get 6 pooled, because I can defend it by microing my workers (even if I go CC first). But I just can't do anything against this particular cheese, this is why neutral depots. Reasonable enough. I will offer one counterargument, which is that 10pool is still a HARD counter to hatch first (as in, do it and don't do anything obscenely stupid and you win), which is just as skill-free as a cannon rush. Similarly, some of the older tournament maps allowed Zergs to cop autowins with 6pools if the Protoss scouted in the wrong direction. But that's not a good argument as to why cannon rushes should be allowed, just one towards offering other areas of balance. The one thing that I would like is to see the Zerg put under similar pressure as the Protoss to scout and react to potential early cheese. Protoss is under the most pressure in all matchups to scout for more all-in play in the early game, what with early pools, Baneling busts, Roach/Speedling all-ins, 6rax all-ins, 1-1-1, 3rax pressure, proxy Marauder, and whatever else you can think of being quite viable. All of them can be dealt with quite handily once scouted (barring the 1-1-1, which is a strong but not overpowered build no matter which way you cut it), but it's still a bit annoying at times to see the difference. That's just me whinging, though. Pay it no heed.
It's actually not that simple. You can actually go hatch first and come out ahead against any type of 10 pool, EXCEPT 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled and a spine made at each hatch.
If you dont send any drones, you can actually just pull drones, pump lings, and keep your hatch and end up wayyyy ahead. Even speedling 10 pool is easy to defend with hatch first.
10 pool baneling is very hard to beat, but it's possible to out-micro it. Chances are you will end up slightly behind, but with amazing micro, you can come out ahead with hatch first, though odds are against you, but it is micro dependent.
Drone all-in, you can just base trade and run away until you get enough lings.
We've seen many, many pros do 10 pools and fail to execute them correctly. I believe most recently, Suhosin did a 10 pool twice in a row vs leenock, and leenock won both times with hatch first because suhosin is a retard and didn't know how to correctly execute a 10 ppool correctly. We also saw Jaedong beat Effort (?) on entombed, even with a 10 pool 8 of 12 drones pulled with spine, but that was because effort did it wrong, although jaedong did micro absoultely fucking godly.
I'd say 10 pool has just as long a wall of text to do correctly as 6 pool. If a diamond did a 10 pool to me, the correct kind with 8 of 12 drones pulled with spines, I'd still beat it (maybe not 10 out of 10 times, and maybe even not more than half of the time, but I would win a few of them).
Also, 6 pool is not an 'autowin' against toss on certain spawns... Toss can always open gateway first (okay, not realistic, sure, but it still means they have an opening, whereas ramp block owns you no matter what opening you do), AND, 6 pool only works on 4 player maps if Toss goes nexus first and doesnt 9 probe scout. If you go a very standard 13 forge with FFE, you will hold 6 pool even with unlucky scouting, or if you go 9 scout and 13 scout for possible nexus first.
I think you are wrong on a lot of things and it's why you have a weird opinion. In my opinion.
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I believe Jaedong held a 10 pool with hatch first against Soulkey in proleague.
In my opinion, the ramp block PvZ isn't horribly overpowered, but I think that bunker rushes at the ramp are (because they require such a large reaction if there is even a hint of it coming), thus any sort of ramp block should not be possible.
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^ yea, soulkey.
Soulkey fucked up really bad. He did not respond correctly, although what jaedong did was a very interesting solution, so clearly soulkey was confused on how to respond. But if you plant a spine at the nat right when it pops, you will crush that type of response. then you just a-move. soulkey did not do that. he did the mistake of many early poolers - attack stupid things like a hatch or pool, instead of going after the drones. made no sense.
you can't hold a proper 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled if the opponent responds correctly. Micro is completely unnecessary.
yea bunker ramp blocks are even worse than this. they have a marine or reaper shooting at you if you try to prevent it, that's frustrating sometimes.
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On September 16 2012 11:54 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Isnt it better to spot a probe planting a pylon with a ling then an overlord? Im talking about standard 14 timing pool. I dont understand your logic, if you spot it with your overlord then your initial lings and your newly produced lings will have to move there to deal with it, when i spot it with a ling then atleast i already have 1 ling there so im getting a head start in starting attacking pylons while my other lings are already on their way. Right as the 4 lings pop their first prority is to clear the expansions and clear for probes, once that is done u still keep 2 of them around (1 checking natural 1 checking third) to deal with potential probes trying to sneek in to make pylons. When doing this you could indeed have gotten away with having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. So if you A) make sure you arent getting ramp blocked before lings pop and B) make sure 2 lings stick around to check for any probes after you have initially cleared the areas, then you are not at all loosing the game just by having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. Its smart though (on a 4 player map) to plan it so that your first overlord goes over your natural and then to scout a certain main while your second overlord goes over your third and then goes to scout the main the other direction, but this is not a necessity, your intial lings will run to clear your natural and your third just as fast when your second overlord isnt hovering above your natural/third as if the overlord in fact where hovering above one of these locations. But if you have an overlord hovering above a certain area then you obv dont have to blindly send lings to clear that area and can instead run with those lings towards oppo base earlier, which indeed is a good thing, but so is having an overlord safely planted at a spot to check for protoss third. And most protosses base their oppening (cannon timing) by spawn pool timing which means they will be safe against those 4 lings even if you send them directly towards your opponent. holy wall of text... Lings will come too late to spot for cannon rushes. You are waiting 25 second make them for the lings, than another 10-20 seconds of travel time, and then because of waiting for larva, all you can do is make 2 more lings which won't do anything to stop a cannon. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush. All lings do, is when used in conjunction with drones, add enough dps to end the timing window. That's why hatch first always loses to a cannon rush from a standard 13 forge FFE. Toss eventually gets the money to throw down ~6 cannons/pylons, and since you need to pull 4-5 drones be building, it's just more buildings than you have drones. With 14 pool, you will have lings coming out to aid the drones. But if Toss is doing a hardcore cannon rush and throws down those 6 cannons, you can't just send your drones back and just rely on your lings, since even 4 lings won't beat a cannon. sorry dude but you just have a huge wall of text and i have a lot of difficulty reading it. If you want to test it out, pm me or belial.869@na and I can show you. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush, lings won't work alone. That's why you need to spot with your overlord. It's also about time, if you spot completed cannons with your 4 lings, it's a little late and you lose that base, you can't make enough lings to stop it, especially when it's placed in certain spots. You gotta use an overlord to spot for cannons/pylons as soon as they go down, and you gotta pull drones. Lings help, but drones are the way to stop cannon rushes. If you wait on lings, you'll just lose because you can't make enough lings, and the lings won't come out in time anyways.
A zerg can use a drone to scout (for example the drone that was pulled blindly to patrol the ramp area) the natural area during the necessary timing window to be able to pull drones before lings pop, and thus the second overlord can be sent to scout desired location right away. So yes, its either a drone or a overlord that needs to be there so that you can pull drones in time vs a certain cannon cheese. I did not have this cheese in mind though when i wrote my post (havnt faced it in a very long time) so i didnt adress it, should have added the third "rule" saying that the z must ofc use a drone to scout during that timing window if the overlord isnt there.
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I didn't read through all 15 pages of replies, but I think you were playing 11 overpool wrong if you were trying to bust his pylons with drones. If I see any kind of shit like this I go 11 overpool into the 7RR variation. You can obviously be safe vs the cannons with 7RR unless he competely commits to cannons, at which point it's probably best to transition into 1-base nydus anywhere on the map (not to mention you should be able to see how hard he's committing to cannons with OL). If he literally gets 3+ cannons outside your main, he will be EXTREMELY delayed in tech while you're going straight for 1base nydus or even 1base muta.
At this point you don't even have to nydus straight into his base... you can just get outside your base and most likely kill him. It's a little coin-flippy, but doable.
If he doesn't commit to cannons, you can bust out via 7RR and either go allin or just pressure with the roaches while securing your expansion and play a pretty normal game. The only thing to watch out for here is a stargate transition, which you should be able to scout. When people do standard 13 forge 17 pylon block though I usually just win with the 7RR easily, and it should work even better against what you faced since he's sac'ing even MORE eco and his forge.
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On September 17 2012 03:23 Defenestrator wrote:
I didn't read through all 15 pages of replies, but I think you were playing 11 overpool wrong if you were trying to bust his pylons with drones. If I see any kind of shit like this I go 11 overpool into the 7RR variation. You can obviously be safe vs the cannons with 7RR unless he competely commits to cannons, at which point it's probably best to transition into 1-base nydus anywhere on the map (not to mention you should be able to see how hard he's committing to cannons with OL). If he literally gets 3+ cannons outside your main, he will be EXTREMELY delayed in tech while you're going straight for 1base nydus or even 1base muta.
At this point you don't even have to nydus straight into his base... you can just get outside your base and most likely kill him. It's a little coin-flippy, but doable.
If he doesn't commit to cannons, you can bust out via 7RR and either go allin or just pressure with the roaches while securing your expansion and play a pretty normal game. The only thing to watch out for here is a stargate transition, which you should be able to scout. When people do standard 13 forge 17 pylon block though I usually just win with the 7RR easily, and it should work even better against what you faced since he's sac'ing even MORE eco and his forge.
I don't see where 11 overpool and 7rr came into this...
If you 7RR every game then it's just a silly cheese that autoloses to any standard play that scouts it. While it might get wins vs this blind ramp block, he can reinforce the wall with cannons to kill the roaches, and then you're screwed.
1base nydus/muta isn't tech play, it's more all-in. He can make however many cannons it takes...as long as you're on 1 base, he's ahead.
Also, IIRC the 7RR requires a fast gas and fast pool, which means you're sac'ing economy every game to do a cheese...
Edit: Reactive roach busts might be viable, but a pre-decided 7RR is just all in.
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On September 17 2012 03:36 Mavvie wrote:
I don't see where 11 overpool and 7rr came into this...
If you 7RR every game then it's just a silly cheese that autoloses to any standard play that scouts it. While it might get wins vs this blind ramp block, he can reinforce the wall with cannons to kill the roaches, and then you're screwed.
1base nydus/muta isn't tech play, it's more all-in. He can make however many cannons it takes...as long as you're on 1 base, he's ahead.
Also, IIRC the 7RR requires a fast gas and fast pool, which means you're sac'ing economy every game to do a cheese...
Edit: Reactive roach busts might be viable, but a pre-decided 7RR is just all in.
I'm exactly talking about reactive roach bust. The nice thing about 11 overpool is that you can either open up standard with 4 lings/queen into 18/19hatch, OR if you get blocked, go straight into 7RR (you can see this in time with your 2nd OL). The start for both builds is exactly the same.
And yes, he can reinforce the wall with cannons, but not in time. You can kill the wall from the high ground with roaches, and then 7 roaches in open space can own 2-3 cannons pretty easily. At this point you pressure to either kill him/force more cannons while expanding yourself or just pump roaches and most likely win. If you expand at this point, because of all the res he poured into the ocannons, he will be behind.
If he pre-emptively gets 3+ cannons to reinforce (before roaches come), then a fast transition into nydus/muta should win very easily. There's no way he's ahead if he's getting pylon/forge on 10 supply and then 3+ cannons (or 3 pylon block into 3+ cannons). He has to do all that, then get a pylon/gateway in his main... all the while, you're basically going straight for muta or nydus, so no, he's not ahead.
And yes of course it's all-in, but it's an all-in designed to counter his all-in =P This is how I deal with this sort of thing and unless I react wrong or face something weird (one time I kept pumping roaches against someone who went fast 1-base immortal off of this opening), then it's an easy win.
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^ no offense dude but you are clearly speaking on something you've never tested.... 11 overpool won't get lings out to bust against a standard cannon rush or 3 pylon ramp block at 17, let alone a 10 pylon 10 forge ramp block that occurred in the game. I'm 1500 masters, I'm pretty sure I can overpool correctly.
As for your suggestion of roach allin, please provide a replay.
On September 16 2012 18:45 Babru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:54 Belial88 wrote:Isnt it better to spot a probe planting a pylon with a ling then an overlord? Im talking about standard 14 timing pool. I dont understand your logic, if you spot it with your overlord then your initial lings and your newly produced lings will have to move there to deal with it, when i spot it with a ling then atleast i already have 1 ling there so im getting a head start in starting attacking pylons while my other lings are already on their way. Right as the 4 lings pop their first prority is to clear the expansions and clear for probes, once that is done u still keep 2 of them around (1 checking natural 1 checking third) to deal with potential probes trying to sneek in to make pylons. When doing this you could indeed have gotten away with having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. So if you A) make sure you arent getting ramp blocked before lings pop and B) make sure 2 lings stick around to check for any probes after you have initially cleared the areas, then you are not at all loosing the game just by having sent your second overlord straight away to desired scouting location. Its smart though (on a 4 player map) to plan it so that your first overlord goes over your natural and then to scout a certain main while your second overlord goes over your third and then goes to scout the main the other direction, but this is not a necessity, your intial lings will run to clear your natural and your third just as fast when your second overlord isnt hovering above your natural/third as if the overlord in fact where hovering above one of these locations. But if you have an overlord hovering above a certain area then you obv dont have to blindly send lings to clear that area and can instead run with those lings towards oppo base earlier, which indeed is a good thing, but so is having an overlord safely planted at a spot to check for protoss third. And most protosses base their oppening (cannon timing) by spawn pool timing which means they will be safe against those 4 lings even if you send them directly towards your opponent. holy wall of text... Lings will come too late to spot for cannon rushes. You are waiting 25 second make them for the lings, than another 10-20 seconds of travel time, and then because of waiting for larva, all you can do is make 2 more lings which won't do anything to stop a cannon. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush. All lings do, is when used in conjunction with drones, add enough dps to end the timing window. That's why hatch first always loses to a cannon rush from a standard 13 forge FFE. Toss eventually gets the money to throw down ~6 cannons/pylons, and since you need to pull 4-5 drones be building, it's just more buildings than you have drones. With 14 pool, you will have lings coming out to aid the drones. But if Toss is doing a hardcore cannon rush and throws down those 6 cannons, you can't just send your drones back and just rely on your lings, since even 4 lings won't beat a cannon. sorry dude but you just have a huge wall of text and i have a lot of difficulty reading it. If you want to test it out, pm me or belial.869@na and I can show you. You need to pull drones to stop a cannon rush, lings won't work alone. That's why you need to spot with your overlord. It's also about time, if you spot completed cannons with your 4 lings, it's a little late and you lose that base, you can't make enough lings to stop it, especially when it's placed in certain spots. You gotta use an overlord to spot for cannons/pylons as soon as they go down, and you gotta pull drones. Lings help, but drones are the way to stop cannon rushes. If you wait on lings, you'll just lose because you can't make enough lings, and the lings won't come out in time anyways. A zerg can use a drone to scout (for example the drone that was pulled blindly to patrol the ramp area) the natural area during the necessary timing window to be able to pull drones before lings pop, and thus the second overlord can be sent to scout desired location right away. So yes, its either a drone or a overlord that needs to be there so that you can pull drones in time vs a certain cannon cheese. I did not have this cheese in mind though when i wrote my post (havnt faced it in a very long time) so i didnt adress it, should have added the third "rule" saying that the z must ofc use a drone to scout during that timing window if the overlord isnt there.
You aren't using a drone to patrol at the third. You don't necessarily need to patrol the ramp, if you are higher level you can just follow the probe and if he goes toward the ramp, just block the 3rd pylon from going down. So just leave an overlord there. You really need an overlord over your third, unless you just leave your lings at your third instead of being active to find the probe and zealot. Which would be a waste.
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EPT
