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Swagtacular
United States101 Posts
On August 25 2012 09:25 CakeInFire wrote: And how can you survive ? you are stuck on 1 base and he can mass units from 4G many ways: 1. spines 2. many lings 3. roaches with some queen support. mixture of the 3 is best Just standard ways to hold a 4 gate | ||
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CakeInFire
13 Posts
On August 25 2012 09:34 Swagtacular wrote: many ways: 1. spines 2. many lings 3. roaches with some queen support. mixture of the 3 is best Just standard ways to hold a 4 gate But you are still stuck on 1 base... You will never get an expand and protoss army on 1 base is better then zerg army on 1 base. | ||
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Swagtacular
United States101 Posts
On August 25 2012 09:38 CakeInFire wrote: But you are still stuck on 1 base... You will never get an expand and protoss army on 1 base is better then zerg army on 1 base. You can hold a four gate on 1 base. When you hold a standard four gate you really don't drone your natural anyway. Also you can make a macro hatch if you think that larva is the issue. I don't want to cram up this post with conversation, so pm me on TL or in starcraft if you want more help. Swagtacular.611 | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you try to hold a 4 gate on 1 base, it will be MUCH harder (i dont even think it's possible, but I'll hold off on that absolute, you also can't use a spine which makes 4 gates much easier to hold too, but not necessarily needed) to hold, not to mention, you will have zero ability to capitalize on holding, whereas when taking your nat with a standard 4 gate defense, you just win the game because Toss won't be able to take his natural for forever. Please provide a replay where Zerg holds a 4 gate on 1 base though. I can't believe that's possible, or that Zerg would end up ahead if he did end up holding (although I doubt he could). | ||
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nickyboy909
72 Posts
damn belial you really went full-retard on this one. stop bitching and actually think about solutions to this problem. First of all, your overlord saw the pylon and you didnt do fuck all about it. I guess he would have been able to place the forge down anyway but you didn't even try. 2nd, you placed down a pool and I don't know what possessed you to think this was a good idea. yeah lets throw away 200 minerals and not have enough to build another drone! He doesn't have a gateway, he doesn't have a nexus, he doesn't have anything! drone drilling would have been the right call here and you tried to do that but stumbled around and shit. Even if you lose 1200 minerals of mining time you're fine in this case. you can go 4 hatch before pool if you want! he can't do fuck all to you for like 5 minutes. Honestly this post is ridiculously mellow-dramatic and I feel as though you're just angry that this worked against you. Had I been faced with this problem I probably would have lost the game too just because of in-experience. What I wouldn't have done was declare it unbeatable based only on the fact that I didn't destroy it my first time. EDIT: just watched the rest of the game and the whole thing was just ridiculous I mean you probably weren't going to win anyway but some of the decisions you made were just way out there. You built a nydus and didn't even try anything with it, you throw mass amounts of units at that one pylon powering 3 canons. Get some sleep, cool down, then think about figuring out some solutions EDIT 2: you also accidentally researched drop which I find hilarious. lets spend 400 gas and do literally nothing with it. (drop and nydus) the sad part about all this is, had you commited to one path, you could have very well taken or at least evened up the game. EDIT 3: reading through this thread I see a couple more solutions such as scouting your ramp at about 11. I see no problem with this, you lose roughly 10 minerals or so and you only need to look at it for a quick second to verify nothing is there. The only thing bad about it would be that it's just one more thing to remember every single game which kinda sucks but that's life. So even if drone drill is totally fucked on this map, you can still scout it out in time to just plant your drone there if hes building a pylon. | ||
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Swagtacular
United States101 Posts
On August 25 2012 10:50 Belial88 wrote: ^ You hold a 4 gate with your natural because if you hold, you are way ahead due to having your natural, and the ability to deny Toss' natural with roach/ling, for a long time. Also, those drones at the natural provide a HUGE income boost, you have 16 workers in your main and then about 10 in your natural, which is more than double the income of 30 workers on 1 base. And, because of the natural choke, you can rely on spines, which make 4 gate a million times easier to hold. If you try to hold a 4 gate on 1 base, it will be MUCH harder (i dont even think it's possible, but I'll hold off on that absolute, you also can't use a spine which makes 4 gates much easier to hold too, but not necessarily needed) to hold, not to mention, you will have zero ability to capitalize on holding, whereas when taking your nat with a standard 4 gate defense, you just win the game because Toss won't be able to take his natural for forever. Please provide a replay where Zerg holds a 4 gate on 1 base though. I can't believe that's possible, or that Zerg would end up ahead if he did end up holding (although I doubt he could). here: http://drop.sc/243078 I see stuff. Dont overreact. Scout. See 1 base = roaches. Hold 4 gate easily. Win | ||
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Zergtastic
Australia81 Posts
On August 25 2012 11:25 nickyboy909 wrote: damn belial you really went full-retard on this one. stop bitching and actually think about solutions to this problem. First of all, your overlord saw the pylon and you didnt do fuck all about it. I guess he would have been able to place the forge down anyway but you didn't even try. 2nd, you placed down a pool and I don't know what possessed you to think this was a good idea. yeah lets throw away 200 minerals and not have enough to build another drone! He doesn't have a gateway, he doesn't have a nexus, he doesn't have anything! drone drilling would have been the right call here and you tried to do that but stumbled around and shit. Even if you lose 1200 minerals of mining time you're fine in this case. you can go 4 hatch before pool if you want! he can't do fuck all to you for like 5 minutes. Honestly this post is ridiculously mellow-dramatic and I feel as though you're just angry that this worked against you. Had I been faced with this problem I probably would have lost the game too just because of in-experience. What I wouldn't have done was declare it unbeatable based only on the fact that I didn't destroy it my first time. EDIT: just watched the rest of the game and the whole thing was just ridiculous I mean you probably weren't going to win anyway but some of the decisions you made were just way out there. You built a nydus and didn't even try anything with it, you throw mass amounts of units at that one pylon powering 3 canons. Get some sleep, cool down, then think about figuring out some solutions I really don't understand your logic. You'r saying that even though hes trapped on 1base, he shouldn't have built a pool. Instead, he should have continued to drone drill, even though the protoss can easily rewall even if Belial had executed it better. In which case, you'd be 1base, with a heap of drones, no pool, and banking minerals due to the original plan to triple expo. I suggest you re-read over the thread and try to follow the various solutions people have given Belial, rather than claim that drone drilling will work after its been disproved so many times already in this thread. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
hit me up in PM and we can talk, I think there is a lot of room for exploration with this. here was one reaction I had when it happened to me: but I think you can react many ways and still be fine, most notably 1 being fast infestors and then just taking your bases after (because a protoss pushing into 6-7 infestors with full energy is just suicide. | ||
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nickyboy909
72 Posts
On August 25 2012 11:39 Zergtastic wrote: I really don't understand your logic. You'r saying that even though hes trapped on 1base, he shouldn't have built a pool. Instead, he should have continued to drone drill, even though the protoss can easily rewall even if Belial had executed it better. In which case, you'd be 1base, with a heap of drones, no pool, and banking minerals due to the original plan to triple expo. I suggest you re-read over the thread and try to follow the various solutions people have given Belial, rather than claim that drone drilling will work after its been disproved so many times already in this thread. ah well the point of my post was just telling him hes overreacting a bit here that's all. I'd rather have made another hatchery instead of a pool, but getting a pool in that situation could have worked. I just feel like belial is blaming all the wrong things for his loss. He drone drilled for a LONG time to no avail, thus if he had stayed mining he would be in a much better spot. Let's say he never drone drilled and then did everything else normal. Now he has much more at his disposal. He can get a much faster lair, nydus and w.e. he wants. He just made so many mistakes that had nothing to do with the ramp block that It just makes it seem as if this post is pretty bad overall. | ||
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nickyboy909
72 Posts
On August 25 2012 12:12 MrLlama wrote: Belial88, hit me up in PM and we can talk, I think there is a lot of room for exploration with this. here was one reaction I had when it happened to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7SV8ML1ckU but I think you can react many ways and still be fine, most notably 1 being fast infestors and then just taking your bases after (because a protoss pushing into 6-7 infestors with full energy is just suicide. this thread is not about the 3-pylon wall! that's been addressed many times D: | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Zergtastic
Australia81 Posts
On August 25 2012 12:12 nickyboy909 wrote: ah well the point of my post was just telling him hes overreacting a bit here that's all. I'd rather have made another hatchery instead of a pool, but getting a pool in that situation could have worked. I just feel like belial is blaming all the wrong things for his loss. He drone drilled for a LONG time to no avail, thus if he had stayed mining he would be in a much better spot. Let's say he never drone drilled and then did everything else normal. Now he has much more at his disposal. He can get a much faster lair, nydus and w.e. he wants. He just made so many mistakes that had nothing to do with the ramp block that It just makes it seem as if this post is pretty bad overall. I agree that he could possibly be overreacting, he does seem at least slightly emotionally invested in this, as most would after being rushed and not knowing the solution. He does make a lot of mistakes in the replay, but its pretty clear he doesn't know how to deal with the strategy. All the posts of his I've read in this thread don't really seem that hes claiming imbalance but rather trying to find a decent possibility in stopping this rush, thus I don't think hes overreacting that much personally. Strategy-wise, I personally think that a pool is a much better decision in this case. The pool is whats going to allow you to eventually break the walloff, whether its through roaches, banelings, or spines/queens. Getting the hatchery earlier might mean more drones, but I think its more correct to prioritize getting that second base up as soon as possible, instead of having extra drones that early (You could get the macro hatch up right after the pool, or after a spine if you still believe the extra larvae can help, could be good to test out!). I personally believe that this thread should be more about discussing what the correct response is after getting the pool up, as its pretty clear that early scouts or ramp patrols are a bit excessive in the mining time you'll lose that early. Sure, patrolling the ramp can stop the block from happening, but if thats not what they're going for, you're automatically behind. Edit: Just saw the video Llama posted. Even though its vs a 3 pylon block, its a similar strategy and we can consider mutalisks as a possibility. However, we won't have any drones out on the map unless we're scouting super early. This means we cant cause the protoss to overreact to stop us from getting a 2nd base up. This could mean the protoss won't be delayed enough for such a strategy to work. Also, mutas require a fair amount of gas, so playing off 1base could be a problem with such a build. Its really a question of if the protoss is delaying his army enough to allow us to hit a strong timing, which at the very least can negate the damage we'll take earlier on if he does the forge/pylon block. | ||
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meijin
United States141 Posts
if you just insta made a pool and kept mining, you could have had roaches out by 4:30. at 4:30 he has 1 cannon on the high ground, 1 cannon on the low ground, nothing reinforcing the wall and he's planting his nexus. so at that point he would have had to decide whether to reinforce his wall OR to expand. he can't do both. your OL sees his natural so if you saw a nexus you would know you can just pump roaches for an easy win. if he reinforces his wall, you still have a decent chance at busting through and even if you don't, his nexus is going to be delayed enough for you to be close to even footing. | ||
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HighLach
United States132 Posts
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On August 25 2012 13:27 HighLach wrote: Honestly, in any real tournament there are lowered supply depots for a reason. In ladder you can just drone drill and win. The amount of money they put in isn't worth it if you drone drill it. Have you read the original post? Drone drilling is not a good option due to the massive amount of mining time lost. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
you panicked. You pulled your drones, tried to drone drill, went for the 1 base all in, etc... This is completely unnecessary. Here is what you do when he does this 1. throw down your pool. 2. build a spine immediately. He now cannot threaten you or honestly even get another cannon up on the high ground (even with his glitch) so he'll have to reinforce behind 3. get a queen, spread creep with her first inject 4. 2nd queen after first queen 5. double gas 6. macro hatch/evo chambers 7. tech to lair with first 100 gas 8. get infestors 9. start +1/+1 upgrades for lings 10. his block should be broken with ur spine/queen combo. If he didn't reinforce behind, you should've taken ur natural and 3rd when you could. If he did reinforce, use a mix of lings, your spine, your queens, and infested terrans to kill off the cannons (doesn't take a ton). Take 2nd and 3rd after this (it really won't be too long) 11. transfer drones when hatches finish and you'll be very well saturated. 12. you're actually even now if not ahead because of his investment and you have infestors with full energy so he can't pressure you without getting fungaled to death | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
 If I recall correctly, you need a drone to patrol block, a drone to do your regular scout and a drone to either follow the scouting probe or check where it's been to make sure he didn't drop anything bad for you. There really isn't much else you can do. Mostly, I would recommend the "taking the losses in stride" strategy, because otherwise you're just in for a world of rage. It's an imbalanced strategy. There's no way around that simple fact. It's damn near an auto-loss if it does happen and even if it doesn't, the very act of preventing it takes a good bit out of your early-game economy. | ||
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izual155
United States48 Posts
 after i watched replay it was actually a cannon rush but do talk about pylon blocks at the end of the video http://drop.sc/243105 | ||
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
EDIT: for disambiguity, I'm not saying to patrol your drone. Check for it at the time it comes, not mindlessly stick it there for 2 minutes. | ||
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Atropin
Germany96 Posts
On August 24 2012 13:19 Infernal_dream wrote: Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall? Because your archons would be stuck then... | ||
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