EPT[H]ZvP Ramp Blocked - Page 6
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
Then again, what we found out was that if the protoss is no immediate thread (aka threatening to kill your buildings with cannons), you can still safely drone up to max one base drones while getting a macro hatch and a baneling nest. Then with double inject ling production bust the wall, and your ling speed should finish when your lings reach his natural, making the follow-up bust much easier (and your opponent should not be able to put up much of a fight). It only gets iffy with mass mass cannons (so much it can hardly ever be busted), and his outer cannons threatening your important tech structures etc. In this case, we haven't tested if a perfect bust will break it or if you can deal with it using mass roaches (although i doubt that, Roaches are simply not effective enough against his follow-up wall at his natural in my experience) I don't really want to post replays, since even though we did at least 7 games, we learned from every game. As in every game we improved the cannoning, and every game i tried something slightly different to hold/bust it. Thats why even though the last 3-4 games would probably be the most realistic ones (after we figured out that a small wallin without cannon commitment will not hold long enough for him to secure his natural), they are still not perfect. For example, i only noticed in the very last game the importance of placing my tech structures as far away from cannons as possible. After 6 or 7 cannons, i lost both my pool and macro hatchery (they were not placed offensively, but he closed in with cannons), so this replay will not help you much if at all. | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
Splendidly argued sir! | ||
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TibblesEvilCat
United Kingdom766 Posts
well that what i try and have mindset of when you face things like this, techup get speed and a cralwer and extra queen ready for when you do poke down the ramp block, if he reinforces the wall, i sugguest macro hatch and another queen, and take 2nd gas, start upgrades, go lair, get roach warren etc, and basically more he reinforces the more safety you go to tech and upgrade. | ||
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Siggeh
Norway71 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Well guess what my friend? My theorycraft on the whole gimmick worked for this Master Zerg. Just because you get frustrated at others doesn't make it right to take it out on me who is trying to help you out...who watched the replay. He said the same thing I basically said. Don't overreact make a spine...prevent another cannon being built in your base and then from there you need to respond to what you scout with your ovie at his base. Is he committing or is he expanding...from there you react He didn't say the same thing at all.. you recommended nydus, which is what I do in the replay and any non-braindead toss will clearly expect and keep vision of his entire main. I'm actually curious as to whether or not the 2 solutions presented thus far are paying off for you, Belial. Any feedback? Granted, this strat is pretty rare on ladder at your MMR, but how about practice games with friends? Have you sat down with someone and ground out a few games on 2 player maps trying the drone patrol vs the overlord warden? I'm just tired of seeing you frustrated by this and tired of all the balance whining this thread seems to have manufactured. - Drone patrol on 9 is too much lost and too far behind. I'll take a few losses instead. - Sending overlord to natural and then 9 overlord to toss base will result in me getting gas too late vs gateway expand or reacting to a 2 gate too late. Again, I don't see this as a solution. I'm looking into baneling busting as a solution, though. Don't use bolded big red text. Not only is it extremely annoying, it's reserved for mod notes. I feel like it's not as annoying as the repeated posts by people saying things that don't work at all and is bad advice that they've never tested out themselves, or the people who don't watch the rep. I never saw anywhere in the rules that bold/red/big text was not allowed, and I've used such text in my guides. I'll avoid big/bold/red text. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
- if he commits, nydus. This isn't really useful, toss will obviously be on the watch for nydus and will have cannons at his ramp. There is no 'oh then he'll have to delay his econ/tech by more cannons!' because you are doing a 1 base all-in. Toss just holds and is easily ahead, as if he wasn't already. - if he expands, you say to pressure with roaches. Again, there is no 'oh toss will be put further behind by putting up defense' because you are on 1 base. Toss will have a cannon up and will put a 2nd one up when you bust through his ramp | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On August 25 2012 06:03 Belial88 wrote: I don't think there is anything wrong with 9 worker scouts, because you get valuable scouting information. I personally always 9 drone scout in ZvZ and ZvR. The problem with patrolling a drone at the ramp from 9-16, is unlike a drone scout, it isn't getting any useful information. If I had sent a drone at 9, I would not scout that Toss had an empty base and was going to ramp block me until my drone was in his base and the wall-in already went up and it'd be too late. So it's not even close to the same thing... and Toss doesn't necessarily have to scout on 9, they can scout after 13 forge just fine too. And you are getting a large amount of information in regards to what Zerg is going to be doing for the next 10 minutes based on this scout. Right, okay. For reference, I'm Toss master ~1300, and I hate cheese. So I feel your pain. That being said, I have watched the replay, and I think you're over dramatic on this issue. Toss must absolutely place his 10-pylon at your ramp for this to work. You'll agree that if he builds his first pylon anywhere else than your ramp, that cheese does not work. Also, Toss cannot delay placement of this first pylon, because for it to work, this pylon and forge must be placed asap. This means that the timing during which the pylon is going up is very precise. It's not gonna happen before 1:00, and if after 1:30 there's still no pylon going up, you can be sure he's not cheesing. If you send a drone and have it scout your ramp around 1:15, you can ensure that if he started his pylon at exactly 1:00, you'll have time to react. Your drone has to stay until 1:30, after that it can go back to mining. Let's say it takes 10s to get a drone going from the mineral line to your ramp. This means that in order to be safe and scout it, you have to pull a drone for 10s + 15s + 10s = 35s. You mine 40 minerals per drone per minute, that means you've lost ~25 minerals to scout it. We're far from your claim of 80 minerals. You may be saying, okay, that's only 25 minerals, but that's assuming I pull back my drone at 1:30. What if he starts his pylon just as my scout leaves ? Well that's where your second overlord comes, sees it, and you still have time to pull a drone or two to prevent him from dropping the forge. Alternatively, you could send your first overlord to the natural, wait a little bit, and resume its scouting after 1:30. Yeah, you've lost a minute of scouting. But is that so dangerous ? Is there anything Toss could do that would kill you if you hadn't scouted at the normal timing ? I'm not quite sure. If you see anything wrong with my "theory" or timings, please explain. | ||
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Nihonjin
66 Posts
The fact is you can prevent it even if it puts you behind. There's nothing more to say and you just have to adjust your play style. Yes we know its 80minerals lost and yes we know its not fair/broken. | ||
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CakeInFire
13 Posts
You have to drone drill with almost all your drones, you must focus the pylon and not the forge, and you MUST not make a pool. Then it is pretty easy if you know on which mineral path you have to clic. | ||
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bahunto28
Canada262 Posts
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:52 Belial88 wrote: ^ The problem is you theorycraft up something you haven't tried or tested. And then, you said things that he didn't say at all, like saying nydus (there's a HUGE difference between having to wait for 100 gas, lair, nydus and 300 gas, than what that guy suggested, just a plain roach bust, like a 3-4 minute difference). As you say- - if he commits, nydus. This isn't really useful, toss will obviously be on the watch for nydus and will have cannons at his ramp. There is no 'oh then he'll have to delay his econ/tech by more cannons!' because you are doing a 1 base all-in. Toss just holds and is easily ahead, as if he wasn't already. - if he expands, you say to pressure with roaches. Again, there is no 'oh toss will be put further behind by putting up defense' because you are on 1 base. Toss will have a cannon up and will put a 2nd one up when you bust through his ramp you act like protoss has infinity money because they establish a Nexus at the natural after committing 800+ minerals blocking your ramp that he/she can afford to make a new wall...get tech up...get units out..and get probes out... I didn't think I had to really go in-depth as I expected a masters player to have enough game knowledge to know this already. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 25 2012 08:41 bahunto28 wrote: whenever i see someone do this to fitzyhere, he just proxy hatches ftw with the scouting drone. just as amusing since they don't tend to leave much behind to be able to defend. If you watched the replay unless fitzy is doing a drone scout at 8 supply (I bet he doesn't) he won't have a drone out by the time his ramp is blocked as was shown in the replay that belial showed. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:33 Belial88 wrote: He didn't say the same thing at all.. you recommended nydus, which is what I do in the replay and any non-braindead toss will clearly expect and keep vision of his entire main. - Drone patrol on 9 is too much lost and too far behind. I'll take a few losses instead. - Sending overlord to natural and then 9 overlord to toss base will result in me getting gas too late vs gateway expand or reacting to a 2 gate too late. Again, I don't see this as a solution. I'm looking into baneling busting as a solution, though. I feel like it's not as annoying as the repeated posts by people saying things that don't work at all and is bad advice that they've never tested out themselves, or the people who don't watch the rep. I never saw anywhere in the rules that bold/red/big text was not allowed, and I've used such text in my guides. I'll avoid big/bold/red text. "Drone patrol is too much lost and too far behind." Ok so losing some minerals is worse than losing the game? Splendid logic you have there. Not to mention guess what, the protoss is losing mining time too! Wow, fucking amazing. Third off, if you hold this, you win. EZ. Yet instead you'll just complain that it's imba, bullshit, and that blizzard should fix it. Because you'll take the few loses instead of losing 80 minerals. | ||
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Swagtacular
United States101 Posts
It it easy to stop. Just let him do his thing (dont pull drones!), secure yourself with a spine and queen, and tech to 1 base muta. By him investing 500+ minerals and delaying his expansion and tech, there is no way for him to have enough. I check the timing in the replay, and at around 10 minutes, he has 2 sentries and 1 stalker - not enough to prevent losing half his workers. I tried to find a replay, but being as uncommon as it is, I couldn't find one recently. Sorry | ||
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CakeInFire
13 Posts
On August 25 2012 09:11 Swagtacular wrote: I faced this before and actually have done it before (1300 masters protoss and zerg). It it easy to stop. Just let him do his thing (dont pull drones!), secure yourself with a spine and queen, and tech to 1 base muta. By him investing 500+ minerals and delaying his expansion and tech, there is no way for him to have enough. I check the timing in the replay, and at around 10 minutes, he has 2 sentries and 1 stalker - not enough to prevent losing half his workers. it should not work against a good protoss. he can do a delayed 4G at the bottom of your ramp and then you are dead. | ||
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Swagtacular
United States101 Posts
On August 25 2012 09:19 CakeInFire wrote: it should not work against a good protoss. he can do a delayed 4G at the bottom of your ramp and then you are dead. sorry forgot to add scout with an overlord. | ||
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CakeInFire
13 Posts
On August 25 2012 09:20 Swagtacular wrote: sorry forgot to add scout with an overlord. And how can you survive ? you are stuck on 1 base and he can mass units from 4G | ||
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