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On August 25 2012 03:37 JDub wrote:
The solution has been suggested multiple times and people then start ignoring it and it gets buried. Belial I think you should edit it into the OP:
Solution: On 2 player maps, scout your ramp at 9 or 10 supply at the point where the pylon will be partially constructed.
If he isn't doing the build then you lose only ~5-10 minerals. If he is, you should be in a very advantageous position as you can drop an earlier pool and prevent him from walling you in. There has been some debate about whether zerg should auto-win in this situation or not, I think we'd need some good players to play it out to test.
It's actually so much more simple than that. You don't have to lose mining time at all unless a pylon goes down.
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On August 24 2012 13:21 X3GoldDot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 13:19 Infernal_dream wrote:On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote:
Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder? Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall? pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
I take issue with this view, as Protoss does need to pull a probe early for scouting, or else risk dying to similar strategies from the Zerg or Terran.
A drone scout on 9 would have shut this particular rush down. Even a 12 scout would probably have been good enough. Remember, your Toss opponent scouts on 9 (or earlier) so you're not falling behind by doing this.
Assuming you find yourself in this position, there's a variety of things you can do:
If you can drone drill a pylon, that could be an option; notice that the damage you dealt would have killed a pylon but just uselessly downed the shields on the Forge. But if you're not going to get through with the drone drill, then don't do it! The lost mining time is what killed you in this game.
1 base Roaches. That cannon might look scary, but it can't see the high ground. For him to see the high ground he has to glitch his probe in, and your Roaches promptly kill it. Anything in range to block your ramp is in range for your roaches to kill for free. Sure, he's probably going to expand 3 minutes before you do, but he's losing 400 resources at the front of your ramp, and then he also has to turtle up his natural to not die to the roaches. You find yourself in the usual position of any game of SC2, the fakeout between whether you are going to all-in or expand, and he's on the guessing side.
1 base Nydus. A cannon rush can't actually hurt your first base. At all. If you don't waste any mining time, his first cannon being in your face sets him behind. To defend your nydus, he has to turtle up pretty hard, and your scouting overlords get to know whether this is happening or not. If he's not turtling enough, kill him. Otherwise, expand.
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Drone drilling doesn't work? Then you are not using it properly and you are not using camera hotkeys.
Builds like this are braindead and hard to beat (unless you prevent the forge obviously), but hey, that's ladder for you.
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On August 25 2012 04:04 achristes wrote:
Drone drilling doesn't work? Then you are not using it properly and you are not using camera hotkeys.
Builds like this are braindead and hard to beat (unless you prevent the forge obviously), but hey, that's ladder for you.
Just to clarify, drone drilling with 15 drones will not kill a pylon before the protoss can put up a gateway and pylon behind the initial pylon. He can then cancel them both slightly later when the cannon finishes.
There are ways to deal with this, but drone drilling is not one of them. Please stop suggesting this.
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On August 25 2012 04:04 achristes wrote:
Drone drilling doesn't work? Then you are not using it properly and you are not using camera hotkeys.
Builds like this are braindead and hard to beat (unless you prevent the forge obviously), but hey, that's ladder for you.
What he's saying is a good toss will just rebuild it before you kill one of the pylons or anything. I would know on korea when I get cannon rushed if I try the drone drill they build something so that once I kill whichever pylon i'm focusing it's still blocked off and cannon will still finish and thus i'll still be locked in my base.
On NA though they aren't smart enough to do that, or weren't Idk bout now as I haven't been cannon rushed on there in a long time.
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On August 25 2012 03:51 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:37 JDub wrote:
The solution has been suggested multiple times and people then start ignoring it and it gets buried. Belial I think you should edit it into the OP:
Solution: On 2 player maps, scout your ramp at 9 or 10 supply at the point where the pylon will be partially constructed.
If he isn't doing the build then you lose only ~5-10 minerals. If he is, you should be in a very advantageous position as you can drop an earlier pool and prevent him from walling you in. There has been some debate about whether zerg should auto-win in this situation or not, I think we'd need some good players to play it out to test.
It's actually so much more simple than that. You don't have to lose mining time at all unless a pylon goes down.
i think your overlord solution also works, but imo it's more beneficial for zerg to send their first overlord to scout the enemy base, especially since this build isn't that common at the moment. it's the difference in sacrificing 5-10 minerals and sacrificing your first scout every game to stay safe. i would say scout is more important than 5-10 minerals.
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Theres no reason for your overlord to head directly to his natural if youre doing any pool later than 12, lining it up to see the ramps would have meant an auto win. The largest mistake i see here was the drone drill; Personally i dont like them but as you can now tell they do not work vs a forge. The best response i can concieve in this situation would have been to go for as fast a queen as possible and uses roaches to break the contain. At this point he will have to reinforce his nat (assuming he took one) with cannons and you can recover slowly. I also would advise going for a very passive infestor spine playstyle after this as his macro is likely weak. Needless to say theres a reason these are blocked in tournaments. If you would like to practice responses to this id be happy to help (i owe you for the beating early pools guide.)
Ralethon.338
I also have an opening that i believe hard counters this while still being safe vs FFE and very good vs gate fe's.
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On August 25 2012 03:51 dUTtrOACh wrote:
It's actually so much more simple than that. You don't have to lose mining time at all unless a pylon goes down.
Let's agree on this then. There are two solutions, one results in a minor loss of 5-10 minerals, one results in a slightly later scout of your opponent (personally I think this is slightly more problematic because you won't see forge expo v. gateway expo v. proxy gates until later, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise).
Solution 1: On 2 player maps, scout your ramp at 9 or 10 supply (the point where the pylon will be partially constructed).
Solution 2: Send your first overlord to your ramp on 2 player maps, and then glide through to the exit of the natural's choke. If necessary, delay moving out from that position until you're "safe" from a ramp block. You know where your opponent is, so you can afford to have sub-optimal overlord scouting patterns that keep you alive.
The case is closed here. Please people stop arguing about balance, Belial made the thread to get feedback on how to stop the build, people have suggested two viable responses that have a minimal effect on the game. Either you'll still scout your opponent slightly later than normal, but still way earlier than you would on a 4-player map, or you'll lose 5-10 minerals which is much less than you lose if you drone scout on a 4-player map, which is pretty common practice.
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Ok after watching this replay...this is definitely abusing the ladder version of the map...however I wouldn't go on to say it's imbalance and "not fair"
That's the same as Protoss 9-scouting on a 4 player map like Entombed and Zerg 6 pooled and was scouted last position. I mean Protoss can send another Probe which tremendously hurts the economy let alone the 9 pylon scout (for all the zergs complaining about early scouting). Yes I understand that our builds are mostly adapted to scouting that early but it's all apart of the game and how things shift. Honestly early scouting by zerg can do a lot of things; for example, Protoss can't go Nexus first if you 9 or 10 scout. Next is the fact that you can harass the pylon to the point where Protoss literally has to have a probe down there or else the pylon will be close to dying off. But yes I agree, Zerg doesn't HAVE TO scout that early.
My thoughts after the replay:
If you see that fast of a ramp block, I wouldn't even try to kill it off with drone drilling. I would just get the pool asap and make a spine right when you have enough money. If you have done that, he couldn't be able to build another cannon up top to allow vision. This will allow you to kill off the wall-in faster than you did. His probe is trapped in the main so he can no longer add on cannons from behind til his next probe gets there.
Now this is where the protoss has two options. He can either fully commit and add more cannons or he expands. He can't really do both during this time. From there I would get a macro hatch and play standard with a faster roach warren.
If he fully commits:
All you literally have to do is get a nydus then since you should have both gas from here and nydus asap. It doesn't have to be in his base though it would be the best place; it just has to be near it.
If he expands:
Once you kill off the ramp block, go ahead and pressure with 3-5 roaches at the front. This itself will force Protoss to overreact and make more cannons, more defense, which puts them really behind in either tech, production, or economy. You don't have to go for the kill at this point though you MIGHT be able to win from there. You can just keep droning and go standard from here on with a huge advantage.
All of this is based upon theorycrafting as I've never done nor experienced this kind of gimmick myself. Though I can understand the swift decision of trying to break it immediately.
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i suppose it depends on how seriously you take ur ladder points and ranking, if i see shit like this, i just respond straight away with "Challenge accepted" in chat (usually with a ton of bm from the opp afterwards but thats cool)and then go full on Destiny if i beat it with GTFO GTFO GTFO . . . there is no greater feeling than overcoming this in my books. Sc2=GoodGame!
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On August 25 2012 01:33 734pot wrote:
A protoss gets scouting information by pylon scouting, I dont get scouting information from patrolling a drone at 9
wrong
User was warned for this post
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hatch block his nat with scouting drone, get quick banes to bust turns out pretty equal
User was warned for this post
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On August 24 2012 13:28 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 13:21 X3GoldDot wrote:On August 24 2012 13:19 Infernal_dream wrote:On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote:
Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder? Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall? pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to? Oh no, those 20 less minerals when you're going to be double expanding anyways. Every strategy is needed, it adds flavor to the game, which has become a NR20 fest as of late. Anything that can break the boringness of ffe and fast thirds in PVZ is a good thing.
The thing is there are some things that give and overwhelming advantage the fact that they can do that and its instant win plus the fact that he can glitch his probes so he can also just get into your base anyway is just dumb . If the most prestigious leagues in the world make it so toss can't do that why can't it be like that on ladder?
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Make sure to get a drone out of your base at approximately 12 supply to scout. If you get blocked in you build a hatch close to the toss walloff but not close enough to easily get scouted. Take both your gases instantly, reach 20+/- drones in your main and tech to hydra. If your proxy hatch isn't scouted you'll EASILY be able to break the toss walloff and stomp through his tiny army and win.
But yeah wallins are probably the most stupid feature in this game, neutral supply depots in the ramp to your main definitely wont hurt the ladder.
I always dronescout specifically for this reason. On most maps you will meet the probe with your drone around the 12-13 supply mark, anything earlier is extremely fishy. I tend to send the drone out right before my second overlord pops.
It's a bad map feature for sure, but blizzard won't change the map pool because they don't like the aestetic of lowered depots. Just breathe in a couple of times, cool down and leave the game, it's not worth it getting worked up about ( although I've been in situations where I've just won a 30 minute macro game, only to lose to 3 cannonrushes in a row with pylon block being one of them, which is infuriating to say the least ).'
basically you have to dronescout and even then (after scouting fast forge or in this case fast proxy pylon) you have to be really careful and block possible cannonrush places with drones.
decendos, chaosvuistje, terkill
If you watched the replay, you'd see that the 12 drone scout I sent was too late and did not even get to the ramp before the wall-off occurred.
What about a probe that is forced to scout from 9 because of 6-pools ? Is that ridiculous too ?
I don't think there is anything wrong with 9 worker scouts, because you get valuable scouting information. I personally always 9 drone scout in ZvZ and ZvR.
The problem with patrolling a drone at the ramp from 9-16, is unlike a drone scout, it isn't getting any useful information. If I had sent a drone at 9, I would not scout that Toss had an empty base and was going to ramp block me until my drone was in his base and the wall-in already went up and it'd be too late.
So it's not even close to the same thing... and Toss doesn't necessarily have to scout on 9, they can scout after 13 forge just fine too. And you are getting a large amount of information in regards to what Zerg is going to be doing for the next 10 minutes based on this scout.
how do you watch the replay? am I the only one that needs to put it into the folder belonging to replays? I remember that with old patches I could just click on them and they would start loading. Also , it seems like I cannot acess via guest, and I don't understand the why. Fuck this patch, blizzard is unable to do things properly.
Yea, that is obnoxious. There's 2 things you can do:
1. In SC2, go to the replay area. You should see a folder button at like the top of the list showing replays, if you click it, SC2 will alt-tab, and an explorer will come up where you just navigate to where you downloaded the file, simply select it, click open, and sc2 will play it.
2. Cut or Copy/Paste the file to where SC2 stores saved replays. Mine are in /documents/sc2/belial12345/Replays/Multiplayer
And for the last time, the only reason tournament maps have anti cheese neutral depot is just for the entertainment of viewers so they don't see a 6 min cheesy game.(it could be pretty fun though ) .
You have no idea what you are talking about. Cannon rushes occur all the time in tournament play, they are no different than a pylon block in terms of execution and the length of the game.
They put in neutral depots because it's completely broken, just like close spawns is completely broken. You can check out any tournament page where they talk about putting in neutral depots.
There is no 'this is easily detered by early scouting'. You are clearly a huge troll. Sending out a 9 drone is only going to result in Zerg having a drone out on the middle of the map, while a probe is blocking off the ramp and the overlord doesn't see it until it's too late. The difference between a 9 probe scout and a 9 drone patrol is that with a probe scout you are getting valuble information on the opponent's build - I scout at 9 in ZvZ and ZvR every time.
But you are asking to do something that no one does. You are clearly either a troll or someone who has never played Zerg and faced this.
That's the same as Protoss 9-scouting on a 4 player map like Entombed and Zerg 6 pooled and was scouted last position. I mean Protoss can send another Probe which tremendously hurts the economy let alone the 9 pylon scout (for all the zergs complaining about early scouting). Yes I understand that our builds are mostly adapted to scouting that early but it's all apart of the game and how things shift. Honestly early scouting by zerg can do a lot of things; for example, Protoss can't go Nexus first if you 9 or 10 scout. Next is the fact that you can harass the pylon to the point where Protoss literally has to have a probe down there or else the pylon will be close to dying off. But yes I agree, Zerg doesn't HAVE TO scout that early.
A drone cannot deny a nexus first. Anyone with half a brain simply pulls 2 workers to deal with a worker-block. Toss is the only one that can deny such things, because of pylons (arguably Terran with ebays... hatch/evo block i think is a bit extreme).
All of this is based upon theorycrafting as I've never done nor experienced this kind of gimmick myself. Though I can understand the swift decision of trying to break it immediately.
Then don't offer advice if you don't know what you are talking about then. It will be pretty obvious a 1 base bust is coming to Toss, as that is the only option Zerg will have.
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On August 25 2012 06:03 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +That's the same as Protoss 9-scouting on a 4 player map like Entombed and Zerg 6 pooled and was scouted last position. I mean Protoss can send another Probe which tremendously hurts the economy let alone the 9 pylon scout (for all the zergs complaining about early scouting). Yes I understand that our builds are mostly adapted to scouting that early but it's all apart of the game and how things shift. Honestly early scouting by zerg can do a lot of things; for example, Protoss can't go Nexus first if you 9 or 10 scout. Next is the fact that you can harass the pylon to the point where Protoss literally has to have a probe down there or else the pylon will be close to dying off. But yes I agree, Zerg doesn't HAVE TO scout that early. A drone cannot deny a nexus first. Anyone with half a brain simply pulls 2 workers to deal with a worker-block. Toss is the only one that can deny such things, because of pylons (arguably Terran with ebays... hatch/evo block i think is a bit extreme). Show nested quote +All of this is based upon theorycrafting as I've never done nor experienced this kind of gimmick myself. Though I can understand the swift decision of trying to break it immediately. Then don't offer advice if you don't know what you are talking about then. It will be pretty obvious a 1 base bust is coming to Toss, as that is the only option Zerg will have.
Ok first off, you need to clean up your attitude. People, including myself, are trying to help you with some suggestions that HAVEN'T even been tested. Is my theorycraft completely stupid? In my opinion, NO. Well is it actually the right response? I don't know. As I stated at the bottom. It's a suggestion that to me makes sense coming from a Protoss POV.
If Zerg doesn't see a forge when 9 scouting, you can just throw up a hatchery. What will Protoss do in response, have to make a late forge or pull probes (which would completely suck). You can just even evo block him for all I care about. If Protoss was aiming toward a Nexus first and you stop it, his build is screwed up a bit.
Of course I don't know what I'm talking about because I've never done this build. Did everyone in this thread tried or faced this build? Highly unlikely including blade. So step off your high horse there buddy and be willing to accept suggestions when your response was completely wrong in the first place. How is it pretty obvious that a 1base bust is coming from toss? If you actually stop and/or kill his wall off, you can do a little roach push at the front of his base. If he commits, you can just nydus outside or inside his base. Obviously outside will have a better chance of not being scouted.
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i found myself a master player on battle net who read this read as well, and we tried for several hours. Here is what we came up with:
your opponent HAS to get a probe in your base and build at least one or two cannons here. If he does not, you just get the spine as soon as your pool finishes, place it on the very edge of the creep, and any baneling all in from here on will win if he tries to take his natural. Since your spine will make life miserable for his wall, he will have to either wall in a greater arc behind it (and lose to banelings), or he will try to take his own natural, but not able to stop your onslaught
so once he commits by cannoning into your main base, you either have to go roaches and/or nydus, since ling/bling won't cut it anymore alone at this point (he will have cannons both above and below the cliff, so your units tend to bug out, and you will most likely lose everything without completely breaking it. And he will just elevator another probe up if necessary).
what you should rather not do:
- do not chase his probe with drones. Even if you manage to get it, it does cost you too much, since if he is smart there will be a second probe getting to your base the very moment you finally manage to kill the first. Plus, he can always take cover in cannon range
- do not build buildings closer to the ramp. Your main Hatch should be save, as the creep keeps cannons away, but a spawning pool next to the hatchery can be targeted. Place important (read: all but spines/extractors) behind your hatchery away from the ramp, preferably behind your mineral line
- since you have melee-heavy units and he has ranged buildings, plus he has shields that regenerate, never fight a fight that will be close in any way. If you barely lose it, you just lost yourself the game, as he will regenerate. If you barely win it, you still most probably lost more than you can afford
- do not panic and place double or even triple spine crawlers as soon as your pool finishes. It will severely cut into your economy, at which point you are too far behind to have a realistic chance to win. If you aim for a macro hatchery, you can use the first 25 energy of your first Queen for a creep tumor if you have a good spot to deny further cannons and help your single spine out, but even that puts you behind until your double hatch production kicks in for the last stand (aka ling bling allin with tons of lings out of a full saturated 1 base)
basically his main goal is to gimp your economy, not your expanding. If you can still manage to get up a full one base economy without much or any delay at all, chances are very good for you being able to kill him.
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Ok first off, you need to clean up your attitude. People, including myself, are trying to help you with some suggestions that HAVEN'T even been tested. Is my theorycraft completely stupid? In my opinion, NO. Well is it actually the right response? I don't know. As I stated at the bottom. It's a suggestion that to me makes sense coming from a Protoss POV.
Helpful advice is fine. Theorycrafting something you havent' tested is just a waste. I don't go into Terran or Toss threads telling them what to do, even against zerg. I don't tell people how to hold strats I haven't played against personally. It's really not helpful to hear the same thing posted 10 times because people don't watch the rep or follow the thread. I don't know how many more times I have to hear someone say "just drone drill" when anyone who would say that has clearly never used drone drilling, or else they'd know how much it doesn't work.
i found myself a master player on battle net who read this read as well, and we tried for several hours. Here is what we came up with:
your opponent HAS to get a probe in your base and build at least one or two cannons here. If he does not, you just get the spine as soon as your pool finishes, place it on the very edge of the creep, and any baneling all in from here on will win if he tries to take his natural. Since your spine will make life miserable for his wall, he will have to either wall in a greater arc behind it (and lose to banelings), or he will try to take his own natural, but not able to stop your onslaught
so once he commits by cannoning into your main base, you either have to go roaches and/or nydus, since ling/bling won't cut it anymore alone at this point (he will have cannons both above and below the cliff, so your units tend to bug out, and you will most likely lose everything without completely breaking it. And he will just elevator another probe up if necessary).
what you should rather not do:
- do not chase his probe with drones. Even if you manage to get it, it does cost you too much, since if he is smart there will be a second probe getting to your base the very moment you finally manage to kill the first. Plus, he can always take cover in cannon range
- do not build buildings closer to the ramp. Your main Hatch should be save, as the creep keeps cannons away, but a spawning pool next to the hatchery can be targeted. Place important (read: all but spines/extractors) behind your hatchery away from the ramp, preferably behind your mineral line
- since you have melee-heavy units and he has ranged buildings, plus he has shields that regenerate, never fight a fight that will be close in any way. If you barely lose it, you just lost yourself the game, as he will regenerate. If you barely win it, you still most probably lost more than you can afford
- do not panic and place double or even triple spine crawlers as soon as your pool finishes. It will severely cut into your economy, at which point you are too far behind to have a realistic chance to win. If you aim for a macro hatchery, you can use the first 25 energy of your first Queen for a creep tumor if you have a good spot to deny further cannons and help your single spine out, but even that puts you behind until your double hatch production kicks in for the last stand (aka ling bling allin with tons of lings out of a full saturated 1 base)
Thanks! Mind posting a rep of this in action?
So on maps like Ohana, Toss actually doesn't need a 2nd cannon on the high ground because a spine won't reach, right?
So on maps where Toss puts a 2nd cannon on the high ground, what do you do? Nydus won't ever work. Do you just pump roaches forever or something?
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played the same person and lost. it isnt even cheese its map exploit.
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On August 24 2012 20:27 straycat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 20:17 SSVnormandy wrote: . And for the last time, the only reason tournament maps have anti cheese neutral depot is just for the entertainment of viewers so they don't see a 6 min cheesy game.(it could be pretty fun though  ) . Do you have a link to a source where a tournament map maker says neutral depots were added for the entertainment of the viewers?
Just take a look at Nestea vs Byun. No neutral supply depot and Nestea gets bunker blocked and loses because he misclicks once. Alot of people were unhappy with the result. Perfect example of why neutral supply depots are in place.
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On August 25 2012 06:42 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Ok first off, you need to clean up your attitude. People, including myself, are trying to help you with some suggestions that HAVEN'T even been tested. Is my theorycraft completely stupid? In my opinion, NO. Well is it actually the right response? I don't know. As I stated at the bottom. It's a suggestion that to me makes sense coming from a Protoss POV. Helpful advice is fine. Theorycrafting something you havent' tested is just a waste. I don't go into Terran or Toss threads telling them what to do, even against zerg. I don't tell people how to hold strats I haven't played against personally. It's really not helpful to hear the same thing posted 10 times because people don't watch the rep or follow the thread. I don't know how many more times I have to hear someone say "just drone drill" when anyone who would say that has clearly never used drone drilling, or else they'd know how much it doesn't work. Show nested quote +
i found myself a master player on battle net who read this read as well, and we tried for several hours. Here is what we came up with:
your opponent HAS to get a probe in your base and build at least one or two cannons here. If he does not, you just get the spine as soon as your pool finishes, place it on the very edge of the creep, and any baneling all in from here on will win if he tries to take his natural. Since your spine will make life miserable for his wall, he will have to either wall in a greater arc behind it (and lose to banelings), or he will try to take his own natural, but not able to stop your onslaught
so once he commits by cannoning into your main base, you either have to go roaches and/or nydus, since ling/bling won't cut it anymore alone at this point (he will have cannons both above and below the cliff, so your units tend to bug out, and you will most likely lose everything without completely breaking it. And he will just elevator another probe up if necessary).
what you should rather not do:
- do not chase his probe with drones. Even if you manage to get it, it does cost you too much, since if he is smart there will be a second probe getting to your base the very moment you finally manage to kill the first. Plus, he can always take cover in cannon range
- do not build buildings closer to the ramp. Your main Hatch should be save, as the creep keeps cannons away, but a spawning pool next to the hatchery can be targeted. Place important (read: all but spines/extractors) behind your hatchery away from the ramp, preferably behind your mineral line
- since you have melee-heavy units and he has ranged buildings, plus he has shields that regenerate, never fight a fight that will be close in any way. If you barely lose it, you just lost yourself the game, as he will regenerate. If you barely win it, you still most probably lost more than you can afford
- do not panic and place double or even triple spine crawlers as soon as your pool finishes. It will severely cut into your economy, at which point you are too far behind to have a realistic chance to win. If you aim for a macro hatchery, you can use the first 25 energy of your first Queen for a creep tumor if you have a good spot to deny further cannons and help your single spine out, but even that puts you behind until your double hatch production kicks in for the last stand (aka ling bling allin with tons of lings out of a full saturated 1 base)
Thanks! Mind posting a rep of this in action? So on maps like Ohana, Toss actually doesn't need a 2nd cannon on the high ground because a spine won't reach, right? So on maps where Toss puts a 2nd cannon on the high ground, what do you do? Nydus won't ever work. Do you just pump roaches forever or something?
Well guess what my friend? My theorycraft on the whole gimmick worked for this Master Zerg. Just because you get frustrated at others doesn't make it right to take it out on me who is trying to help you out...who watched the replay. He said the same thing I basically said. Don't overreact make a spine...prevent another cannon being built in your base and then from there you need to respond to what you scout with your ovie at his base. Is he committing or is he expanding...from there you react
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EPT
