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On August 24 2012 20:05 6xFPCs wrote:
We need a sticky at the top of this thread that clarifies the situation: This is not a normal pylon block, this is a 10 supply pylon block that also uses the forge to block the ramp earlier than normal, so turn off your help thread autopilot and pay attention.
Again, I know we see a lot of pylon block help threads, but this is something different. Even blade and chaos gave the classic pylon block auto-response, at first.
That's because putting a drone there, while inefficient, is the only thing that doesn't reak of one base shenanigans. If you want to go for a freaking baneling bust on a wall that thick you will need a ton of zerglings and banelings ( takes like 5 to 6 banelings to kill off one pylon, let alone anything that is behind it ). You will have invested over 200 gas and larvae that should have been drones just to get out of your base while the Protoss can even reinforce that wall with gateways if he really wants to be a douche.
Getting up a roach warren similarly will delay your exit by a ton and give the protoss free reign over his economy while yours is limited to 1 base. Your queen production will be delayed as well due to the fact that you are on one hatch ( two if you went for a macro hatchery and didn't want a third ) so he could abuse it with a double stargate follow up, any 2 base follow up or just sit on his ass and just take it if the zerg wants to go for a 2 base all in. All of this with any agression from the zerg being completely all in because you ahve to build drones to catch up to his economy.
Don't get me wrong, if there was any person out here on the strategy forum that would suggest an earlier gas against anything protoss does I would be the first to jump in and groan about it. But against anything pylonblocking on your natural it is just way too detrimental. It is the same kind of inefficient BS in the current metagame as Tal darim altar or any of the early to mid 2011 maps were, and what some ladder maps probably will always be.
I have never been able to come back against any block, terran or protoss, if my opponent had any build order resembling competance after the initial block.
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On August 24 2012 20:17 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +Regardless, the game is balanced around pro results and therefore not early scouting as zerg. This strategy isn't viable on tournament maps and shouldn't be viable on ladder as well. This is the equivalent of ladder maps having some built in mechanic to prevent 6 pools, making it so protoss doesn't have to 9 scout on ladder, but still has to 9 scout in tournaments. Doesn't make much sense. A game can be different for tournament and ladder, actually there are so much differences between ladder and tournaments. (BO3, knowing your opponent before the game etc...) . And for the last time, the only reason tournament maps have anti cheese neutral depot is just for the entertainment of viewers so they don't see a 6 min cheesy game.(it could be pretty fun though  ) . This strategy also don't disturb the balance of the game at all, as for every cheese it rely on a not safe scouting. and it is easily countered by a proper scouting. Show nested quote +the game is balanced around pro results and therefore not early scouting as zerg will u say when a protoss don't scout at 9 a zerg he will have a huge advantage above zerg because he gained 40 mineral or so delaying his scout. It is ridiculous. a zerg will be still in good shape scouting this and loosing 40 mineral early. i don't believe that even in high GM level ,a game has be won or ever be won by protoss because zerg loose so few mineral scouting early. It's part of the LADDER game dealing with such cheese and you should deal with it much of the time because it is so simple to counter. imo zerg just want so bad play good the mid/late game because they like it and it's fun , so they just don't bother playing good early and just whine about early game all the time . I am very happy there are a lot of other strategies in the ladder game than strategies we see on events/tournaments, it makes the game more varied. Viva el queso !!
its 80 minerals which is nearly 2 more drones which is like 4-6 drones @8:00. so stop telling its not a big deal.
the P player doing this are just abusing the shit out of the fact that there arent any neutral depots. it has NOTHING to do with skill and they basically get free wins or get an economically lead by forcing dronescout/patrol. so yes the game is balanced around pro levels where the zerg has those 80 minerals early on.
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On August 24 2012 20:17 SSVnormandy wrote: . And for the last time, the only reason tournament maps have anti cheese neutral depot is just for the entertainment of viewers so they don't see a 6 min cheesy game.(it could be pretty fun though ) .
Do you have a link to a source where a tournament map maker says neutral depots were added for the entertainment of the viewers?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
One question though, couldn't you have gone around the Forge as his Probe entered your main without any problems?
With the Cannon on the way, you would have lost 2-3 Drones, but you would have killed off the Cannon and you could split the Drones for any additional Cannons or is it some kind of a weird ramp block?
Yes, on ladder, I always put a Drone on patrol, it takes away minerals and puts me a bit behind, but that was just way too fast for a "standard" ramp block with 3 Pylons (he wasn't even paying attention for the first 6 seconds).
Edit: and I love how every Protoss after failing a cheese (or blocking the ramp) goes for Void Rays or DTs, I'm guessing your opponent was Diamond (as 90% of them play like this)
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Do you have a link to a source where a tournament map maker says neutral depots were added for the entertainment of the viewers?
No but it's pretty obvious though. They want pro games that are casted turn into amazing epic macro game. easy wins are boring to watch.
the P player doing this are just abusing the shit out of the fact that there arent any neutral depots. it has NOTHING to do with skill and they basically get free wins or get an economically lead by forcing dronescout/patrol. so yes the game is balanced around pro levels where the zerg has those 80 minerals early on.
I don't see any reason to forbid easy win strategy. it is obvious there are strategy requireing more or less skill. But should we forbid all strategy that aren't skilled enough ? exit 7 roach, exit flush toilet archon etc...
And you can't say it's imbalanced because the counter is very easy to do and it gives you also the free win at last, like all cheese /counter cheese action.
the game will sure be more designed for pro with anti cheese map etc... but it will be so much boring to play i think.
I never get mad at people cheesing me because it always a good experience to try something different and to learn from scouting mistakes. How many zergs learned to proper scout now because they were abused cheesed all the time? Are those zergs loosing much more in macro games? .. not sure
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On August 24 2012 20:47 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +
Do you have a link to a source where a tournament map maker says neutral depots were added for the entertainment of the viewers?
No but it's pretty obvious though. They want pro games that are casted turn into amazing epic macro game. easy wins are boring to watch. Show nested quote +
the P player doing this are just abusing the shit out of the fact that there arent any neutral depots. it has NOTHING to do with skill and they basically get free wins or get an economically lead by forcing dronescout/patrol. so yes the game is balanced around pro levels where the zerg has those 80 minerals early on.
I don't see any reason to forbid easy win strategy. it is obvious there are strategy requireing more or less skill. But should we forbid all strategy that aren't skilled enough ? exit 7 roach, exit flush toilet archon etc... And you can't say it's imbalanced because the counter is very easy to do and it gives you also the free win at last, like all cheese /counter cheese action. the game will sure be more designed for pro with anti cheese map etc... but it will be so much boring to play i think. I never get mad at people cheesing me because it always a good experience to try something different and to learn from scouting mistakes. How many zergs learned to proper scout now because they were abused cheesed all the time? Are those zergs loosing much more in macro games? .. not sure
okay so you dont get that 80 minerals that early is a huge deal. okay then so you dont get that but dont compare an imbalanced strat that is removed from tournament pro play with other cheese strategies that arent imbalanced.
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I think most of you are just wrong - it´s ok for zerg when blizzard force terran to build depot before barracks, now they want neutral pylon to stop another cheese against them. That´s similar (from my point of view) if z would have to build observer before spawning pool. That would stop 6-7-8-9-10 pool.
Generaly I am against all these changes - it eliminates variety in game and maps without netrual depots are not imbalanced.
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Hi all, my 2 cents <Diamond player> Ive poped up against the twice and beat it twice vs other Diamonds, not sure how well it might work in Masters but here it is anyway
As soon as my 2nd Ovi saw it, same scouting as Beliels above, 1st to base then 2nd to nat for 'standard' cannon rushes ect ect and as soon as i see it gas up, get a 2nd queens and go for a horridly late 7 roach, take all drones off gas when 150 (7 roachs) then send down the 2nd queen as a tank with the 7 roachs and dps down all the pylons and ignore the other buildings/ cannons then pull all my drones to have a drone 7 roach all in and spam lings to the other base until ran out of money and leave the 2 queens behind to stop any probe re powering the buildings (slowly killing them all the time ofc) and in both the cases the drones soaked up enough damage for the roachs to do damage until the lings appear
its all in but its a lose anyway, ive not tried anything else as it worked first time and then the 2nd
and lol Malvig, Zerg starts with a Ovi anyway so ovi before pool is a mute point
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okay so you dont get that 80 minerals that early is a huge deal. okay then so you dont get that but dont compare an imbalanced strat that is removed from tournament pro play with other cheese strategies that arent imbalanced.
imo you're not forced to block down the ramp all the time like an idiot ! u can just make a quick scout up your ramp at key timings for this/thoses cheese like the one that was presented in the replay (9 pylon) or the classical one 3 pylone.
It's like every strat, you can say it's imba it should be removed/nerfed, or i should learn to counter it the optimal way.
I prefer thinking the second way...
if it's ur choice to not bother with cheesy play because you don't want to loose precious it's your right, but it also called playing more greedy and it's a style with its risks that can pay off most of the time.
Besides it's been a while tournament use neutral depot and if Blizzard think they should not be implemented in ladder they have maybe good reason (or maybe bad) to not do it.But If it is so imbalanced as you said they would have to do something long time ago. I will not accuse blizzard to not take care about balance in their game when i see amazing job they did to balance it so far.
When a new imbalanced strat was found, players always found an optimal way to counter it and make the matchup evolves and in case they don't find solution, blizzard always took action to reduce power of such strategy.
actually there are only minor change in the balance of the game since 4-5 month and i think it is because the game is very balanced. what you are talking about is an important change in the design of the ladder maps.
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I know it is difficult to say, but you have to say lucid: what the heck does this pylon-forge block can do for him? A cannon on the highground follow up: thats his only exit. Knowing that, the only danger for you is him managing to sneak a cannon uphill in the range of the first cannon, because than, although he can't kill you because of the creep, you will be in a hell of a trouble freeing your entrance without the highground advantage. I watched the replay closely: you could have put down a spine crawler to deny that area before he threw down his second cannon. You do that, it's over for him: can't cannon rush you anywhere else (has to build a pylon first, not defended by the downhill cannon), cant defend his lowground structures anymore.
Now you know how to screw him up next time (I advice you to make a second queen asap after the sunken so that you can expand your creep to your ramp)
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On August 24 2012 21:22 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +okay so you dont get that 80 minerals that early is a huge deal. okay then so you dont get that but dont compare an imbalanced strat that is removed from tournament pro play with other cheese strategies that arent imbalanced. imo you're not forced to block down the ramp all the time like an idiot ! u can just make a quick scout up your ramp at key timings for this/thoses cheese like the one that was presented in the replay (9 pylon) or the classical one 3 pylone. It's like every strat, you can say it's imba it should be removed/nerfed, or i should learn to counter it the optimal way. I prefer thinking the second way... if it's ur choice to not bother with cheesy play because you don't want to loose precious it's your right, but it also called playing more greedy and it's a style with its risks that can pay off most of the time. Besides it's been a while tournament use neutral depot and if Blizzard think they should not be implemented in ladder they have maybe good reason (or maybe bad) to not do it.But If it is so imbalanced as you said they would have to do something long time ago. I will not accuse blizzard to not take care about balance in their game when i see amazing job they did to balance it so far. When a new imbalanced strat was found, players always found an optimal way to counter it and make the matchup evolves and in case they don't find solution, blizzard always took action to reduce power of such strategy. actually there are only minor change in the balance of the game since 4-5 month and i think it is because the game is very balanced. what you are talking about is an important change in the design of the ladder maps.
i never said pvz is imba, i said no neutral depots are and so every pro and tournament thinks. since you still think 80 min early on isnt a big deal i cant help you...
its not 3 pylon block or pylon + forge block being imba in the sense it cant be stopped, its the lost mining time to prevent it being imba! hope now you get what i mean.
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i never said pvz is imba, i said no neutral depots are and so every pro and tournament thinks. since you still think 80 min early on isnt a big deal i cant help you...
maybe the way you prevent from that cheese is not optimal and u can proper scout it without loosing 80 mineral. you can train to use another solution like for example use your first ovi or whatever that can be smarter than patroling from 9 probe timing to 17 probe timing... In this thread a lot of people have come with some answers, open your eyes and you may find a solution that can suit you best or develop your own solution.
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I hate to say it but I kind of agree with the guy above. The protoss either uses his first python in the wall at a specific tine you can scout, or is a 3 pylon block after forge which is a very different time... Since there is not real in between you don't need your drone patrolling the while time, and in the case of first pylon, you only have to check initially since he can't forge until the pylon finishes.
I also agree with the people saying this strat is pointless and the depot should be added. If you scout a ffe add zerg you can't really tell if he will wall you from that info, whereas early pools are kind of clear in intent.
Another thing to consider is that an early scout as protoss gives information to keep a relatively greedy build safe, while a patrolling drone keeps an (as of yet) ungreedy pool first build safe from a rare instant win strat, but gives no information
add there is no scouting.
Sorry for mistakes this was typed on my phone
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just watched the replay. As has been pointed out, one of your spines could obviously hit both pylon and cannon. So it should be no problem starting a spine as soon as your pool is done. If you feel like his cannon will finish up first, build it slightly out of range of his cannon and unroot it. Other than that, drone drilling is really aweful. It sounded like a cute trick, but in truth it sets you behind way too much. I don't really care for what happened in the replay after that, since you already threw yourself behind by 2-3 minutes with that fail drill.
Instead, drone up, get a Queen. If you feel like it, get a macro Hatchery in your base. Continue to drone up until your base is fully saturated with both gases while getting a baneling nest. Since he cut probes hard, and you did not cut any except for that Spine Crawler you should do very well regarding this, plus he will have neither sentries nor +1 Zealots when you finally move out. Deny his probe with your Spine Crawler/Queen, and take out the upfront Pylon/Cannon with your Spine. He will be forced to wall in a wider arc (and most likely include Pylons as a wall). So when you are fully saturated, put on the kill switch and start massing Zergling/Baneling. Nydus often times took too long for me to win in this situation, plus you need the ability to make Banelings in case he walls at his own natural again (where Nydus-Counters often fail if he is aware of his own bases).
Of course, Roach allin might work as well, as could double expanding after you take out his contain. But i prefer the easy win, since he cannot have hard counters to zergling/baneling ready by the time i attack.
TL;DR: You threw the game by trying to drone drill, never do it again. Instead, drone up, get banelings OR roaches while having a Spine poking at him (and preventing his probe from coming up). When fully saturated, put on the kill switch
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This might be a crazy proposition, but SCOUT YOUR RAMP on 2 player maps.
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On August 24 2012 13:21 X3GoldDot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 13:19 Infernal_dream wrote:On August 24 2012 13:03 Wingblade wrote:
Blizzard really needs to put neutral supply depots in their ladder maps. I believe they did it for WCS, now why cant they do it for the ladder? Or you can stop depending on blizzard to help you and just put a drone there on patrol. Why doesn't blizzard just give me a 1 hex wide choke naturally so all i have to do is build a zealot to block instead of having to make a building wall? pylon block is a unneeded stratergy.....blizzard NEEDS to put the neutral supply depot, as 1 drone patrolling means 1 drone mining less... if other races dont need to do it why does the zerg need to?
Because zerg can make 15 drones at a time and always have one more base than the protoss and can max out at fucking 12 min.
You know, might have something to do with that.
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I watched the replay and the best thing I could think of is sending the first overlord to your nat. The second can easily get to his base but is a little more delayed scout. If you see him put down 1 pylon you pull enough drones (2-4) and just defend.
But if you actualy get blocked you could use the nydus for moving out drones and forces to just expand and defend them. You will be behind but it's better than just losing. You can see that he had to wall off so you know that he wont come out until he has a good 2 base army to either attack or take a third. His army buildings are also behind so his push will be delayed and you can probably defend it with lings, queens and spines.
The bug is just utter bull but you defended that okay.
Good luck
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Never really seen a move-out of the probe this early to do this. I guess we all have to 9 drone-scout the ramps if we want to prevent this. I really wish Blizzard would get their heads out of their asses and take the same map-balancing steps the professional organizations have to ensure decent games.
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Blizzard needs to require a overlord before pool, same as pylon before gate or depot before rax
Zerg can make one tech building and max out on that unit. You guys have infestors, mutas, roaches
basically stfu
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If you do see it as the forge goes down, a drone drill with a perfect 10 drones does more damage to the forge than it gets from building. Considering he's unable to build any cannons if you get the forge down before it goes up, he can reinforce the wall all he wants to, its not going to change a thing.
That being said, if the Forge goes down like in your replay, the only thing I can think of is that he's four times more all in with it than usual. Consider how early he skips workers to get this crap down. Now I'm one of those players who still get a relatively early gas, so I can have a relatively early Nydus worm up aswell and just transition into a macro game. If you've gone entirely gasless I don't know if you have an honest chance at winning.
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