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On October 23 2012 01:22 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:46 Thunderflesh wrote:For what it's worth, I've had no trouble with SCV being on 'I' using TRM. I'd rather keep it on 'I' if that will mean I can then go in and make small adjustments to the hotkeys without unbinding everything ( I use a weird mac keyboard, so I've had to shuffle a few things around). Plus, when I *do* want to target fire something with a PF, I feel like I'll screw it up if 'J' just builds an SCV. Two of the most frequent actions you take are building SCVs, and attacking with your army, and I don't mind these being on different keys (i.e., I'm building an SCV so I'm pressing 'I', and now I'm attacking so I'm pressing 'J'; there's something tidy about this, psychologically). Honestly I also feel that sacrificing the ability to edit hotkeys in the in-game editor isn't a good tradeoff. I don't see the issue with having scv on the ring-finger home key as opposed to the pinky home key. They are equally easy to press, and after a certain point in game, mule call downs and chronoboost get used more than build worker (once you have ~65-80 workers). I think accessibility is an important factor for TheCore, especially if we want to spread it around as much as possible. Telling people, "sorry, learn how to edit the .SC2Hotkeys file directly" could be a deal-breaker on whether or not they try it.
Actually, you didn't even touch on the ability to use the Ctrl+(key) with commands, which seems very promising.
On October 23 2012 03:39 Mar_1910 wrote:
I was using standard layout with my finger resting on ASD and pinky for just tab. Let it be J or H for large layout. For all Terran it will hurts, You will suffer. I will tell after 40 more games how i will fell.
Pinky on tab? What are you talking about?
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On October 23 2012 01:27 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:22 JDub wrote:
Honestly I also feel that sacrificing the ability to edit hotkeys in the in-game editor isn't a good tradeoff. I don't see the issue with having scv on the ring-finger home key as opposed to the pinky home key. They are equally easy to press, and after a certain point in game, mule call downs and chronoboost get used more than build worker (once you have ~65-80 workers).
I think accessibility is an important factor for TheCore, especially if we want to spread it around as much as possible. Telling people, "sorry, learn how to edit the .SC2Hotkeys file directly" could be a deal-breaker on whether or not they try it.
mmm, we'll definitely have to consider making it a suggestion rather than a patch. What does everyone else think?
Keep it on "I"! This really works fine, and people won't use the Core if it requires editing the text file. You could make a .exe, but fewer PC users would use it, and it wouldn't even work for Mac users like myself.
On October 23 2012 03:01 Dark Seraph wrote:
As a terran who always goes either bio or bio tank in every matchup, I find that using all 4 fingers to quickly make both SCVs and marines (rapidly pressing PI and OJ) feels much more natural than turning the action to do this into PJ->OJ.
1. Having your pinky finger do BOTH of these extremely common actions will certainly cause it to become tired more quickly than before. Sharing these actions with the ring finger helps prevent finger fatigue.
2. Using your ring finger about as often as your pinky finger from very early in the game gets that finger "warmed up" for when you have to use it later.
This is what I was trying to say, but better expressed. PI and then OJ feels very nice; it almost has a musical rhythm to it.
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On October 23 2012 03:52 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:22 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 00:46 Thunderflesh wrote:For what it's worth, I've had no trouble with SCV being on 'I' using TRM. I'd rather keep it on 'I' if that will mean I can then go in and make small adjustments to the hotkeys without unbinding everything ( I use a weird mac keyboard, so I've had to shuffle a few things around). Plus, when I *do* want to target fire something with a PF, I feel like I'll screw it up if 'J' just builds an SCV. Two of the most frequent actions you take are building SCVs, and attacking with your army, and I don't mind these being on different keys (i.e., I'm building an SCV so I'm pressing 'I', and now I'm attacking so I'm pressing 'J'; there's something tidy about this, psychologically). Honestly I also feel that sacrificing the ability to edit hotkeys in the in-game editor isn't a good tradeoff. I don't see the issue with having scv on the ring-finger home key as opposed to the pinky home key. They are equally easy to press, and after a certain point in game, mule call downs and chronoboost get used more than build worker (once you have ~65-80 workers). I think accessibility is an important factor for TheCore, especially if we want to spread it around as much as possible. Telling people, "sorry, learn how to edit the .SC2Hotkeys file directly" could be a deal-breaker on whether or not they try it. Actually, you didn't even touch on the ability to use the Ctrl+(key) with commands, which seems very promising. Well, I still don't think it's worth sacrificing the user-friendliness of the layout. People are almost always going to want to tinker with the controls a little bit, I mean they are going for a completely custom layout in TheCore so I would expect almost everyone to change a key here or there. Having written the remapping script for TheCore, I can safely say that editing the .SC2Hotkeys file is not straightforward, as it can be a bit difficult to find the command that you are looking for.
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On October 23 2012 04:29 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 03:52 Antylamon wrote:On October 23 2012 01:22 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 00:46 Thunderflesh wrote:For what it's worth, I've had no trouble with SCV being on 'I' using TRM. I'd rather keep it on 'I' if that will mean I can then go in and make small adjustments to the hotkeys without unbinding everything ( I use a weird mac keyboard, so I've had to shuffle a few things around). Plus, when I *do* want to target fire something with a PF, I feel like I'll screw it up if 'J' just builds an SCV. Two of the most frequent actions you take are building SCVs, and attacking with your army, and I don't mind these being on different keys (i.e., I'm building an SCV so I'm pressing 'I', and now I'm attacking so I'm pressing 'J'; there's something tidy about this, psychologically). Honestly I also feel that sacrificing the ability to edit hotkeys in the in-game editor isn't a good tradeoff. I don't see the issue with having scv on the ring-finger home key as opposed to the pinky home key. They are equally easy to press, and after a certain point in game, mule call downs and chronoboost get used more than build worker (once you have ~65-80 workers). I think accessibility is an important factor for TheCore, especially if we want to spread it around as much as possible. Telling people, "sorry, learn how to edit the .SC2Hotkeys file directly" could be a deal-breaker on whether or not they try it. Actually, you didn't even touch on the ability to use the Ctrl+(key) with commands, which seems very promising. Well, I still don't think it's worth sacrificing the user-friendliness of the layout. People are almost always going to want to tinker with the controls a little bit, I mean they are going for a completely custom layout in TheCore so I would expect almost everyone to change a key here or there. Having written the remapping script for TheCore, I can safely say that editing the .SC2Hotkeys file is not straightforward, as it can be a bit difficult to find the command that you are looking for.
It was pathetically easy for me to get through the document. All I needed to do was use Ctrl+F and search for whatever I needed.
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On October 23 2012 05:59 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:29 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 03:52 Antylamon wrote:On October 23 2012 01:22 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 00:46 Thunderflesh wrote:For what it's worth, I've had no trouble with SCV being on 'I' using TRM. I'd rather keep it on 'I' if that will mean I can then go in and make small adjustments to the hotkeys without unbinding everything ( I use a weird mac keyboard, so I've had to shuffle a few things around). Plus, when I *do* want to target fire something with a PF, I feel like I'll screw it up if 'J' just builds an SCV. Two of the most frequent actions you take are building SCVs, and attacking with your army, and I don't mind these being on different keys (i.e., I'm building an SCV so I'm pressing 'I', and now I'm attacking so I'm pressing 'J'; there's something tidy about this, psychologically). Honestly I also feel that sacrificing the ability to edit hotkeys in the in-game editor isn't a good tradeoff. I don't see the issue with having scv on the ring-finger home key as opposed to the pinky home key. They are equally easy to press, and after a certain point in game, mule call downs and chronoboost get used more than build worker (once you have ~65-80 workers). I think accessibility is an important factor for TheCore, especially if we want to spread it around as much as possible. Telling people, "sorry, learn how to edit the .SC2Hotkeys file directly" could be a deal-breaker on whether or not they try it. Actually, you didn't even touch on the ability to use the Ctrl+(key) with commands, which seems very promising. Well, I still don't think it's worth sacrificing the user-friendliness of the layout. People are almost always going to want to tinker with the controls a little bit, I mean they are going for a completely custom layout in TheCore so I would expect almost everyone to change a key here or there. Having written the remapping script for TheCore, I can safely say that editing the .SC2Hotkeys file is not straightforward, as it can be a bit difficult to find the command that you are looking for. It was pathetically easy for me to get through the document. All I needed to do was use Ctrl+F and search for whatever I needed.
That's all swell and good for you. I don't think your average user will want to do it. It's not "pathetically easy". Regardless, though, people are going to get frustrated when they first try it out, try to edit something, get the error, and potentially give up on TheCore right then and there. I find it hard enough to convince people to try to use a totally custom layout as it is.
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On October 23 2012 06:42 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:59 Antylamon wrote:On October 23 2012 04:29 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 03:52 Antylamon wrote:On October 23 2012 01:22 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 00:46 Thunderflesh wrote:For what it's worth, I've had no trouble with SCV being on 'I' using TRM. I'd rather keep it on 'I' if that will mean I can then go in and make small adjustments to the hotkeys without unbinding everything ( I use a weird mac keyboard, so I've had to shuffle a few things around). Plus, when I *do* want to target fire something with a PF, I feel like I'll screw it up if 'J' just builds an SCV. Two of the most frequent actions you take are building SCVs, and attacking with your army, and I don't mind these being on different keys (i.e., I'm building an SCV so I'm pressing 'I', and now I'm attacking so I'm pressing 'J'; there's something tidy about this, psychologically). Honestly I also feel that sacrificing the ability to edit hotkeys in the in-game editor isn't a good tradeoff. I don't see the issue with having scv on the ring-finger home key as opposed to the pinky home key. They are equally easy to press, and after a certain point in game, mule call downs and chronoboost get used more than build worker (once you have ~65-80 workers). I think accessibility is an important factor for TheCore, especially if we want to spread it around as much as possible. Telling people, "sorry, learn how to edit the .SC2Hotkeys file directly" could be a deal-breaker on whether or not they try it. Actually, you didn't even touch on the ability to use the Ctrl+(key) with commands, which seems very promising. Well, I still don't think it's worth sacrificing the user-friendliness of the layout. People are almost always going to want to tinker with the controls a little bit, I mean they are going for a completely custom layout in TheCore so I would expect almost everyone to change a key here or there. Having written the remapping script for TheCore, I can safely say that editing the .SC2Hotkeys file is not straightforward, as it can be a bit difficult to find the command that you are looking for. It was pathetically easy for me to get through the document. All I needed to do was use Ctrl+F and search for whatever I needed. That's all swell and good for you. I don't think your average user will want to do it. It's not "pathetically easy". Regardless, though, people are going to get frustrated when they first try it out, try to edit something, get the error, and potentially give up on TheCore right then and there. I find it hard enough to convince people to try to use a totally custom layout as it is.
Easy is relative. I don't know the opinion of the majority on the ease of editing it, and you don't either.
I would be very happy to hear more opinions on this.
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On October 23 2012 06:56 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:42 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 05:59 Antylamon wrote:On October 23 2012 04:29 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 03:52 Antylamon wrote:On October 23 2012 01:22 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 00:46 Thunderflesh wrote:For what it's worth, I've had no trouble with SCV being on 'I' using TRM. I'd rather keep it on 'I' if that will mean I can then go in and make small adjustments to the hotkeys without unbinding everything ( I use a weird mac keyboard, so I've had to shuffle a few things around). Plus, when I *do* want to target fire something with a PF, I feel like I'll screw it up if 'J' just builds an SCV. Two of the most frequent actions you take are building SCVs, and attacking with your army, and I don't mind these being on different keys (i.e., I'm building an SCV so I'm pressing 'I', and now I'm attacking so I'm pressing 'J'; there's something tidy about this, psychologically). Honestly I also feel that sacrificing the ability to edit hotkeys in the in-game editor isn't a good tradeoff. I don't see the issue with having scv on the ring-finger home key as opposed to the pinky home key. They are equally easy to press, and after a certain point in game, mule call downs and chronoboost get used more than build worker (once you have ~65-80 workers). I think accessibility is an important factor for TheCore, especially if we want to spread it around as much as possible. Telling people, "sorry, learn how to edit the .SC2Hotkeys file directly" could be a deal-breaker on whether or not they try it. Actually, you didn't even touch on the ability to use the Ctrl+(key) with commands, which seems very promising. Well, I still don't think it's worth sacrificing the user-friendliness of the layout. People are almost always going to want to tinker with the controls a little bit, I mean they are going for a completely custom layout in TheCore so I would expect almost everyone to change a key here or there. Having written the remapping script for TheCore, I can safely say that editing the .SC2Hotkeys file is not straightforward, as it can be a bit difficult to find the command that you are looking for. It was pathetically easy for me to get through the document. All I needed to do was use Ctrl+F and search for whatever I needed. That's all swell and good for you. I don't think your average user will want to do it. It's not "pathetically easy". Regardless, though, people are going to get frustrated when they first try it out, try to edit something, get the error, and potentially give up on TheCore right then and there. I find it hard enough to convince people to try to use a totally custom layout as it is. Easy is relative. I don't know the opinion of the majority on the ease of editing it, and you don't either. I would be very happy to hear more opinions on this.
Well, just as an example, let's say I want to edit the Viper abilities. Which one is which?
FaceEmbrace/Viper
BurrowProtector/Viper
ViperConsume/Viper
Or why do these commands not follow the naming convention of having a slash and then the name of the building that does the research?
overlordspeed
zergflyerarmor1
zergflyerattack1
Sure, easy is relative, but editing the .SC2Hotkeys file is more work and less easy than using the in-game Hotkeys editor, which anyone who has toyed with their hotkeys at all will be used to using.
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On October 23 2012 07:00 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:56 Antylamon wrote:On October 23 2012 06:42 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 05:59 Antylamon wrote:On October 23 2012 04:29 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 03:52 Antylamon wrote:On October 23 2012 01:22 JDub wrote:On October 23 2012 00:46 Thunderflesh wrote:For what it's worth, I've had no trouble with SCV being on 'I' using TRM. I'd rather keep it on 'I' if that will mean I can then go in and make small adjustments to the hotkeys without unbinding everything ( I use a weird mac keyboard, so I've had to shuffle a few things around). Plus, when I *do* want to target fire something with a PF, I feel like I'll screw it up if 'J' just builds an SCV. Two of the most frequent actions you take are building SCVs, and attacking with your army, and I don't mind these being on different keys (i.e., I'm building an SCV so I'm pressing 'I', and now I'm attacking so I'm pressing 'J'; there's something tidy about this, psychologically). Honestly I also feel that sacrificing the ability to edit hotkeys in the in-game editor isn't a good tradeoff. I don't see the issue with having scv on the ring-finger home key as opposed to the pinky home key. They are equally easy to press, and after a certain point in game, mule call downs and chronoboost get used more than build worker (once you have ~65-80 workers). I think accessibility is an important factor for TheCore, especially if we want to spread it around as much as possible. Telling people, "sorry, learn how to edit the .SC2Hotkeys file directly" could be a deal-breaker on whether or not they try it. Actually, you didn't even touch on the ability to use the Ctrl+(key) with commands, which seems very promising. Well, I still don't think it's worth sacrificing the user-friendliness of the layout. People are almost always going to want to tinker with the controls a little bit, I mean they are going for a completely custom layout in TheCore so I would expect almost everyone to change a key here or there. Having written the remapping script for TheCore, I can safely say that editing the .SC2Hotkeys file is not straightforward, as it can be a bit difficult to find the command that you are looking for. It was pathetically easy for me to get through the document. All I needed to do was use Ctrl+F and search for whatever I needed. That's all swell and good for you. I don't think your average user will want to do it. It's not "pathetically easy". Regardless, though, people are going to get frustrated when they first try it out, try to edit something, get the error, and potentially give up on TheCore right then and there. I find it hard enough to convince people to try to use a totally custom layout as it is. Easy is relative. I don't know the opinion of the majority on the ease of editing it, and you don't either. I would be very happy to hear more opinions on this. Well, just as an example, let's say I want to edit the Viper abilities. Which one is which? FaceEmbrace/Viper BurrowProtector/Viper ViperConsume/Viper
ViperConsume is Consume. I'm pretty sure FaceEmbrace is Abduct and BurrowProtector is Blinding Cloud, but they appear to be names left over from alpha, and could go either way.
Or why do these commands not follow the naming convention of having a slash and then the name of the building that does the research?
overlordspeed
zergflyerarmor1
zergflyerattack1
The "/" after most commands determines the building/unit which is using the command. Overlord speed and Zerg Flyer upgrades are on multiple buildings. (Hatch/Lair/Hive and Spire/Greater Spire)
Sure, easy is relative, but editing the .SC2Hotkeys file is more work and less easy than using the in-game Hotkeys editor, which anyone who has toyed with their hotkeys at all will be used to using.
I guess I'm forgetting how impatient most players are, what with giving up on Blizz after hearing about HotS for the first time.
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To me it makes a lot of sense to use a few "illegal" bindings that are only possible via the editor.
For example, I would like to assign assign Next Subgroup to Control - I am still testing whether there would be issues.
I also have Lift, Cancel, Explode and Merge in a combination that requires to hold down Control.
But these are just minor optimizations. If TheCore used only a couple illegal bindings, it would be just a marginal benefit and it would make it harder to the average player to adopt TheCore. Not worth it. For those of us who like to tinker with Notepad and configuration files, they may just set these illegal bindings themselves, and live with the fact that they may break with the next patch.
On the other hand, if the developers find something really awesome that is possible only using illegal bindings.. that would be another story.
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Won't using these "illegal" keybindings create problems (or at least headaches) for players at tourneys?
You can't always use your own computer, and there might be situations where you can't even use your own account.
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On October 23 2012 07:58 Thunderflesh wrote:
Won't using these "illegal" keybindings create problems (or at least headaches) for players at tourneys?
You can't always use your own computer, and there might be situations where you can't even use your own account.
No. Hotkey layouts are stored online so you can access it from your account no matter what computer you're playing on. And not being able to play on your own account? Nobody I can think of would do that, and even if someone did, they would at least allow you to recreate your hotkey layout. You could say something like, "Can I just copy+paste the hotkey file from my own computer to make it simpler?"
On October 23 2012 07:49 evenjn wrote:
To me it makes a lot of sense to use a few "illegal" bindings that are only possible via the editor.
For example, I would like to assign assign Next Subgroup to Control - I am still testing whether there would be issues.
I also have Lift, Cancel, Explode and Merge in a combination that requires to hold down Control.
But these are just minor optimizations. If TheCore used only a couple illegal bindings, it would be just a marginal benefit and it would make it harder to the average player to adopt TheCore. Not worth it. For those of us who like to tinker with Notepad and configuration files, they may just set these illegal bindings themselves, and live with the fact that they may break with the next patch.
On the other hand, if the developers find something really awesome that is possible only using illegal bindings.. that would be another story.
My thoughts exactly. I'm thinking that there has to be be some amazing use for Ctrl+(key) on commands. I might experiment with it now, actually.
On Blizz patching it up, I doubt it will happen, at least not within a reasonable amount of time, since Blizz is completely focused on HotS.
Of course, I'm a bit biased on the ease of adjusting, because I've completely adjusted. I just need a bit more time to get used to the new layered cameras from .5.
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players playing on another account happens frequently in cross server matches.
imo its not worth it if you only want to make building scvs/probes on pinky. maybe if there are other things to drastically improve.
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On October 23 2012 08:12 phos4 wrote:
players playing on another account happens frequently in cross server matches.
You could easily buy another copy of the game if you really want to keep your hotkeys. The price is declining, after all.
imo its not worth it if you only want to make building scvs/probes on pinky. maybe if there are other things to drastically improve.
If workers on pinky was the only thing that it was useful for, then I never even would have considered doing this.
It can be used to condense everything towards the home keys even more than before. Keys like "G", "7", and "]" might be able to go unused, which is a huge boon to efficiency.
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On October 23 2012 00:15 Mar_1910 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 16:49 poeticEnnui wrote:Top 8 masters with The Core. Took long enough!  Keep up the awesome work, JaK! Where were You before? What TheCore makes better for You? I think it is right time for this answers after sometime of using it. Thx in advance.
Before, I was mid-masters, but it was more game sense than mechanics that was limiting my progress. I'll be perfectly honest -- had I not switched to TheCore, I'd probably have made it to top 8 a lot quicker. That said, given the opportunity to go back, I would never NOT choose to use The Core.
As a fairly proficient (B- iCCup) Brood War player, I was upset by a number of the seemingly anti-ergonomic, purely mnemonic hotkeys. Starcraft II improved on these, but there were still some things that were just...well, stupid.
Patrol being "P", hotkeys spanning to "0," -- when under pressure, even after all the years of Starcraft, there were times when I would STILL miss these keys.
The Core addresses all of these issues. It's "better" for me because it's better for the human hand, period. The classic "1a2a3a" becomes (for me) "9j0j[j" -- the latter is easier to press by a nearly ridiculous margin after both are ingrained in muscle memory. Let's imagine an alternate reality where I didn't switch to The Core and made it to top 8 masters: me with The Core would beat me with the standard hotkeys 9/10 times if only as a function of the speed and efficiency gained with the Core. And I still haven't even "mastered" the layout.
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^Awesome review.
As far as making adjustments in the hotkey text file vs the ability to use the in-game editor, I think being able to use the in-game editor is the better choice. As some people have already stated, not being able to further customize their core hotkeys through the game would be annoying enough to altogether abandon thecore. I know I made quite a few adjustments to my core hotkeys, and to have that ability taken away would not be worth it. Let the people make their own adjustments, even if they won't be as super ultra efficient as the ones you would have made for them in the text file.
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All right then, I guess I'll be an extremist.
I always was a perfectionist. 
However, why not aim the illegal keybinds layout at pros, who generally seek every edge they can get? That way we can have a casual audience based around a more accessible way to personalize hotkeys, and a competitive audience.
Damn, I sound like Blizzard.
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Or he could just aim an illegal keybind layout for people who want to use it, and one without it for those who don't. Not sure if serious, but wanting every edge doesn't make you a pro, and not every pro will opt to use the illegal hotkey keybind.
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We always chose what was most efficient, what was fastest, what was most ergonomic. These are our guiding principals.
I think if the 'illegal' keybinds are more efficient/faster/ergonomic then TheCore should use it.
if it is a trade between user-friendliness and efficient/faster/ergonomic than efficient/faster/ergonomic has a higher priority for me.
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With TheCore 0.5 TRM german (unmodified) i cant edit it in the sc2 hotkey editor because if i edit a hotkey (doesnt matter which) always some hotkeys will unbound. (maybe a bug - can anybody confirm this with this layout / other layouts?)
(I cant test with the other/us layout because i crashed my PC today :-/)
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I modified my TRM layout that i can build scv on J and it feels good
i have no problems with my pinky but i dont play much.
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What are these "illegal" keybinding. Only things like macro keys are illegal. Changing the input of a key to register as one single other key is fine. I have the menu key (beside the windows key) remapped to be my tab button. It in the perfect place and doesn't require a third party program once set at least with my keyboard.
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How long does it take to switch from default layout to this? (to get to the same level)
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EPT
