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[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 250

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JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
July 01 2013 19:17 GMT
#4981
I is a pretty prime location to put the rapid fire key. Not sure if its a net gain as far as overall speed is concerned.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
turboPasqual
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany21 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-01 20:40:09
July 01 2013 20:14 GMT
#4982
Hi there,

I wanted to comment on a few things for a long time but did not find time until now. So maybe it is getting a bit assorted but I will try to remember everything:

1)
On July 02 2013 04:17 JaKaTaK wrote:
I is a pretty prime location to put the rapid fire key. Not sure if its a net gain as far as overall speed is concerned.

You can put rapid fire on ctrl+key. Since you hold down ctrl anyway while injecting it is no difference in that case. (I use ctrl+U atm and it works pretty well.)

2)
On June 18 2013 02:56 Ninjury_J wrote:
Some small tentative changes were just made to the suggested cgs in the reference doc in order to deal with units which are sometimes in small numbers (which get re-prioritized by buildings). Please take a look and post what you think .

All in all I like evo and spire on the injecting queen group. I for myself am doing it the same way. But honestly I think that having other buildings on control groups is not worth it because you cannot do many upgrades on these buildings. If you want to upgrade something you could just click on the building. But anyway the new suggustions are very good all in all.

3)
On June 19 2013 09:34 Ninjury_J wrote:
Hmm... Is there ever really a time where you have less than 4 Mutas and Need to double tap to them?

Rarely. But having the spire on injecting group is still better, imo, because you won't have a problem in the rare case when you just have 3 mutas left. And you don't need to constantly tap through queens, evos and spires so you don't have any disadvantages by this.

4)
Regarding this whole "modifier + right button" thing: You can even use modifier + side buttons. Once I was searching for a way to move my camera while spreading creep. Because your creep keeps going forward and between recalling the camera and setting the new camera location you need to move your screen. I have put my drag scroll on ctrl+side button and it works out quite well. Probably there are even other good use cases for this (maybe quick ping).

5)
I like the core reference spreadsheet. Unfortunately I noticed it is a) not very foreigner friendly and b) not very beginner friendly. We all know what a "den" or a "rax" is. But neither the newbies nor all foreigners know what it is. I could imagine that some people never tried TheCore just because they did not know what they are reading.

Edit (I knew I would forget something):
6)
On June 28 2013 09:43 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Zergies

If your interested, we could use some help testing possible changes to the Hatch/Lair/Hive

Queen = Closest key (J for ZRM)
Select Larva = Same as before (O for ZRM)
Overlord Speed = 3rd Homerow key (I for ZRM)
Drops= next key (K for ZRM)
Burrow = Same as before (H for ZRM)

Remember that we are looking for players to see if this is something they can get used to. It requires that you spam less and be more aware of your larva, otherwise you'll run into issues.

Thanks

Personally I like the way it is right now quite much. It screwed me up quite often in the past days when I was using grid hotkeys and wanted to make a bunch of overlords and ended up queuing a lot of queens.
astazha
Profile Joined June 2013
United States29 Posts
July 01 2013 23:17 GMT
#4983
On July 02 2013 04:17 JaKaTaK wrote:
I is a pretty prime location to put the rapid fire key. Not sure if its a net gain as far as overall speed is concerned.


To clarify, I'm essentially doing this. If you're spreading creep from more than a couple of tumors, the difference is marked.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412130
All hail the Overgoat!
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
July 01 2013 23:51 GMT
#4984
I'm very aware of the technique. I just think I is too close of a key to give up.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
astazha
Profile Joined June 2013
United States29 Posts
July 02 2013 02:05 GMT
#4985
Hmm. Ok. Creep seems important enough to me though.
All hail the Overgoat!
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 02:24:26
July 02 2013 02:24 GMT
#4986
I believe Jak's point is that if you use "rapid fire" with I it makes other functions used with I more difficult or impossible, and that I has too many important functions to render it less "spread out" utility in order to make creep spread slightly more efficient.
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
Fraudulent
Profile Joined July 2013
United States4 Posts
July 02 2013 02:36 GMT
#4987
WHY DID YOU GET RID OF THE OLD VERSION... I binded over the old core like 5 months ago by mistake and now the new core is completely different... please upload your old keybind system... it was 10 times better than this new one
Thunderflesh
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States382 Posts
July 02 2013 02:49 GMT
#4988
On July 02 2013 11:36 Fraudulent wrote:
WHY DID YOU GET RID OF THE OLD VERSION... I binded over the old core like 5 months ago by mistake and now the new core is completely different... please upload your old keybind system... it was 10 times better than this new one


Give the new version a chance--any changes that are made, are made for the sake of efficiency. It'll be a pain for the first few games, but if you learnt TheCore in the first place, you can definitely learn a few new hotkeys. I've played on multiple iterations, and I really do think it has just gotten better with time.
You'll worry less about what people think about you when you realize how seldom they do.
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
July 02 2013 03:24 GMT
#4989
On June 28 2013 08:14 Thunderflesh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2013 00:22 JaKaTaK wrote:
On June 24 2013 19:37 slowbacontron wrote:
On June 24 2013 11:33 ZombieDenden wrote:
Guys, Videos are great, but a beginner of this layout who doesn't want to watch videos has such a high barrier to entry that i think you guys missing opportunities to spread your great idea.

Try writing the guide to the layout without video and then using video to add value, rather than relying on videos.

I'll back this, it's easier to read text instructions than to load and watch a video, and with text you can go at your own pace.


Cool! Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to take another look at the OP and see if I can improve it. If you have any specific ideas or examples of what you think would be better, I would appreciate you sharing :D


Hey Jak, thanks for your continued hard work on TheCore! I can't imagine playing starcraft without it now.

I agree with slowbacon and zombie. If you don't already know what TheCore is, and don't/can't watch a video (maybe you're browsing at work, or you're in the middle of an awesome song that you don't want to pause), it takes a lot of digging through the OP to figure out what it is really all about. Here are a few suggestions:

(1) I remember when I was first looking at TheCore, I started to understand the basic philosophy better once I saw a picture with the new home row, and indications of where the control groups and ability keys go. These are now kind of hidden down in "visual aides." I would update these and put them prominently up near the top, as they succinctly communicate the really key innovation of TheCore. You could also move the "5 stages of the core" and the player survey into a spoiler near the bottom to de-clutter the OP a little bit.

(2) Make the download link more prominent! Big text closer to the top! Whenever I come back to the OP to download a new version, I have to hunt all over again for the download link. Plus, if you get people to download the file, they're more likely to then do some research and actually try it out.

(3) You also have to go all the way to the bottom to find the visualizer and the suggested control groups. These are both really useful when you're starting out, so I would put them up closer to the top. In fact, the whole "Download" section at the bottom of the OP should be near the top, right under your introduction (and maybe one visual aide). I would maybe create a simpler, easier to understand "suggested control groups" document/picture. It takes too much digging to actually figure out what you're supposed to put on different control groups. I know people will do their own thing with CGs to some extent, but knowing that in TRM most people do CC/upgrade buildings on P, Production Facilities on O, main army on ;, etc. is really important (and helps people understand how TheCore is designed to work).

Sorry for wall of text hah. Also, if you want any help with anything I mention above, I'm happy to lend a hand!
These are all really good suggestions. I think reorganizing the OP would realllly help, it was a struggle to figure out in the beginning.
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
Czarnodziej
Profile Joined January 2011
Poland624 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 11:22:14
July 02 2013 10:49 GMT
#4990
OP could also use a couple more spoiler containers, because now the scrolling feels endless and it detracts from overall user experience.

Also "5 stages" and "Why TheCore?" should be in the same section, because they essentially carry the same message.

Spoiler tag worthy:
1) Player votes
2) Resources
3) FAQ
4) Team
Hancho
Profile Joined July 2012
Germany89 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 11:42:35
July 02 2013 11:35 GMT
#4991
Maybe it is a good idea to use a anchor to the Visual Aides instead of a copy (FAQ 6. Which keys do I press with which fingers?)
- if the Visual Aides change you have only one place to update
- the copy in the FAQ is already not the newest

the Visual Aides Finger images are up to date (except the version number)
only the Control Groups and Abilities are outdated

Visual Aides
+ Show Spoiler +
Fingers

Right Handed
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Left Handed
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]




Control Groups and Abilities (NOT 100% Updated)

Protoss
+ Show Spoiler +
Right Handed
+ Show Spoiler +
No Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]



Left Handed
+ Show Spoiler +
No Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Random
+ Show Spoiler +
Right Handed
+ Show Spoiler +
No Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Left Handed
+ Show Spoiler +
No Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Terran
+ Show Spoiler +
Right Handed
+ Show Spoiler +
No Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Left Handed
+ Show Spoiler +
No Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Zerg
+ Show Spoiler +
Right Handed
+ Show Spoiler +
No Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Left Handed
+ Show Spoiler +
No Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Side Mouse Buttons
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]




6. Which keys do I press with which fingers?
+ Show Spoiler +
Visual Aides -> Fingers


EDIT:

On July 02 2013 19:49 Czarnodziej wrote:
OP could also use a couple more spoiler containers, because now the scrolling feels endless and it detracts from overall user experience.

Also "5 stages" and "Why TheCore?" should be in the same section, because they essentially carry the same message.

Spoiler tag worthy:
1) Player votes
2) Resources
3) FAQ
4) Team

If Resources go into a spoiler you have to use the Resources anchor because anchors dont work in spoilers (i believe)

6. Which keys do I press with which fingers?
+ Show Spoiler +
Resources -> Visual Aides -> Fingers
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
July 02 2013 13:09 GMT
#4992
On July 02 2013 11:36 Fraudulent wrote:
WHY DID YOU GET RID OF THE OLD VERSION... I binded over the old core like 5 months ago by mistake and now the new core is completely different... please upload your old keybind system... it was 10 times better than this new one

Which version of TheCore are you looking for? TheCore has been under source control (see the GitHub) since September 2012, which means that all versions going back to 0.5 are retrievable. Sadly we weren't tagging versions along the way, so to find the one you want you'd have to dig through commit history a bit. However, a number of people have asked for TheCore 0.6.3, and I have linked to that multiple times (may be worthy of including in the OP at this point, as an FAQ).

On May 13 2013 23:01 JDub wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2013 22:28 iMECHuCRY wrote:
possible to download older versions of the core, if so, where? I dont like the 0,7 Version of RRM (mostly because Tab is now on mouse sidebuttons, which sucks)

An my (beloved, ^^) 6.3 version disappeared when i logged into sc2 today :/

The GitHub history isn't the easiest to look through (we weren't tagging versions like we should have been), but you can download 0.6.3 from here: https://github.com/jonnyhweiss/TheCoreConverter/tree/cb0f23c83ff0ef67d938d5264f3a84639afeaa15
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
July 02 2013 14:36 GMT
#4993
@JDub
Definitely going to put it in the FAQ

Thanks everyone for helping with the OP organization. Presentation of the layout makes a big difference when someone is considering trying it out.

I think resources, FAQ and Team are spoiler worthy, however, the player poll gives a huge amount of credibility to TheCore, since we've had it up there have been less and less comments like "just do what's comfortable for you, that's the best layout" and "grid and standard are fine, this is a waste of time". I suspect its because looking at this thread (of which the 1200+ players is a strong data point) shows we're not fucking around and it isn't just a small group of fanatics that believe this to be best/better.

Download right at the top is an interesting idea. I am worried though, if we put it before the how to choose your version, that people will be confused. Maybe put it after the Why TheCore section with a bit of a rewrite?

I think that's it? Let me know if I missed anything.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
July 02 2013 15:05 GMT
#4994
On July 02 2013 23:36 JaKaTaK wrote:
@JDub
Definitely going to put it in the FAQ

Thanks everyone for helping with the OP organization. Presentation of the layout makes a big difference when someone is considering trying it out.

I think resources, FAQ and Team are spoiler worthy, however, the player poll gives a huge amount of credibility to TheCore, since we've had it up there have been less and less comments like "just do what's comfortable for you, that's the best layout" and "grid and standard are fine, this is a waste of time". I suspect its because looking at this thread (of which the 1200+ players is a strong data point) shows we're not fucking around and it isn't just a small group of fanatics that believe this to be best/better.

Download right at the top is an interesting idea. I am worried though, if we put it before the how to choose your version, that people will be confused. Maybe put it after the Why TheCore section with a bit of a rewrite?

I think that's it? Let me know if I missed anything.

Derp, I just realized that it's really easy to tag previous versions in Git... I've tagged 0.6.3 so people on the GitHub can just click on Branch --> Tags --> 0.6.3 (or whatever other version they want).
astazha
Profile Joined June 2013
United States29 Posts
July 02 2013 16:25 GMT
#4995
On July 02 2013 11:24 Ninjury_J wrote:
I believe Jak's point is that if you use "rapid fire" with I it makes other functions used with I more difficult or impossible, and that I has too many important functions to render it less "spread out" utility in order to make creep spread slightly more efficient.



I see. I may just have not noticed what other functions would be messed up. Do you have any examples?
All hail the Overgoat!
teuthida
Profile Joined March 2013
United States104 Posts
July 02 2013 17:26 GMT
#4996
On July 02 2013 23:36 JaKaTaK wrote:
@JDub
Definitely going to put it in the FAQ

Thanks everyone for helping with the OP organization. Presentation of the layout makes a big difference when someone is considering trying it out.

I think resources, FAQ and Team are spoiler worthy, however, the player poll gives a huge amount of credibility to TheCore, since we've had it up there have been less and less comments like "just do what's comfortable for you, that's the best layout" and "grid and standard are fine, this is a waste of time". I suspect its because looking at this thread (of which the 1200+ players is a strong data point) shows we're not fucking around and it isn't just a small group of fanatics that believe this to be best/better.

Download right at the top is an interesting idea. I am worried though, if we put it before the how to choose your version, that people will be confused. Maybe put it after the Why TheCore section with a bit of a rewrite?

I think that's it? Let me know if I missed anything.


Jak,

I think the important thing for the download link is for it to be a big colorful obvious button (if possible) . That way scrolling through the page quickly allows you to see the download link easily. I know I've had to hunt for it a lot, especially as the OP gets rearranged.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
July 02 2013 20:06 GMT
#4997
@teuth

Know anyone who wants to make sweet graphics in grey and teal for the headings??
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
teuthida
Profile Joined March 2013
United States104 Posts
July 02 2013 20:19 GMT
#4998
On July 03 2013 05:06 JaKaTaK wrote:
@teuth

Know anyone who wants to make sweet graphics in grey and teal for the headings??


Jak, my photoshop skills are more photography based than graphic design but I could take a stab at it
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
July 02 2013 20:36 GMT
#4999
I would not be opposed. The teal color is: #00bfbf The grey can match the TL default
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
chatogaster
Profile Joined February 2012
Poland13 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 23:52:18
July 02 2013 23:48 GMT
#5000
I was just trying out the layout and first impressions were better than I expected

Kinda confused about versioning, though:

Downloaded the latest stable version of ZRM from the skydrive, which sets up creating the hatchery group at ctrl+shift+j and adding to it at alt+j. But the layout doc (with 0.7.1.2 in the title) lists that at ctrl+shift+i/ctrl+i. I assumed the doc is reflecting a newer version then, so went onto github, but the files in the root (I guess these are for US qwerty?) seem broken - upon loading up in SC lots of unbound keys, etc.

- Which hotkey file and layout doc combo do you recommend using? Why don't they match? (sorry if I'm doing smth wrong)
- Apart from tagging changesets, maybe it would be good to add version number as a comment in the first line of the hotkey file? This way I would have no doubts which version I'm using, also when downloaded from skydrive.
- Shouldn't the US qwerty files on github be in a folder called USQwerty? I know they're input and the folders are output, but I bet most people using the repo don't look at it that way, so you'd avoid confusion.

In any case keep up the awesome work
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